fedex1
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CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:24 am

I am just curious the differences, and not so different between CMH & IND.

I get IND gave a bunch of money to get a CDG flight, but why doesn’t CMH have any things?!? Routes pretty much the same? Same size airports?!?

Thoughts!!!

Eric
 
papatango
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:47 am

Delta needs to jump on flights to SLC. SEA and AMS/CDG before someone else does!
 
WWads
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:15 am

papatango wrote:
Delta needs to jump on flights to SLC. SEA and AMS/CDG before someone else does!


Indy is much stronger economically than CMH. Similar-sized markets by population, but IND has a stronger business presence.

The fact that CMH-SLC can't work says a lot. I don't see CMH getting TATL service any time soon.
 
klm617
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:16 am

fedex1 wrote:
I am just curious the differences, and not so different between CMH & IND.

I get IND gave a bunch of money to get a CDG flight, but why doesn’t CMH have any things?!? Routes pretty much the same? Same size airports?!?

Thoughts!!!

Eric



Keep this in mind IND is also a FedEx hub so there might be some Cargo that they can pick up that is not possible at CMH.
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stl07
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:18 am

fedex1 wrote:
I am just curious the differences, and not so different between CMH & IND.

I get IND gave a bunch of money to get a CDG flight, but why doesn’t CMH have any things?!? Routes pretty much the same? Same size airports?!?

Thoughts!!!

Eric

money talk$$$$
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:18 am

ibthebigd wrote:
CMH has also in the shadow of CLE and CVG

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This. I think there's a lot of bleed to both cities. Columbus is less than two hours from CVG, which makes it perfectly reasonable to drive there for DL's CDG nonstop.
 
ibthebigd
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:19 am

CMH has also in the shadow of CLE and CVG

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stl07
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:19 am

plus DL has lots of loyalty in IND. I'm sure if the Keflavik carriers knew they were going to launch on top of each other in CLE one would have launched in CMH
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Midwestindy
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:56 am

Cargo is a large difference:
CMH doesn't get cargo because of LCK, although LCK gets more int'l cargo than IND
IND has the FX hub

Pax numbers are different as well
2017
IND-8,770,308
CMH-7,576,592

In terms of Nonstop Networks
CMH/LCK- has STL and BNA which IND doesn't have
IND- has CHS, SRQ, AZA, PIT, SAN, MCI, SLC, SEA, and SFO which CMH/LCK don't
IND-has better service to the west coast:
IND-(July 26th), 4x to Bay Area, 8x DEN, 2x SEA, 4x LAS, 4x LAX, 1x SLC, 4x PHX, and 1x SAN
CMH/LCK-(July 26th), 1x Bay Area, 4x DEN, 0x SEA, 3x LAS, 2X LAX, 0x SLC, 4x PHX, and 0x SAN

In terms of airlines
CMH/LCK- has Spirit, IND does not
IND- has Alaska and Virgin, CMH does not

Int'l service
IND and CMH are pretty equal, not looking at the CDG flight

Mainline
CMH has mainline to PHL on AA, which IND does not
IND has mainline to ORD/CLT on AA, Mainline to DTW, MCO, CDG, SLC, SEA, and seasonal mainline to LGA, CUN, and RSW on DL, and Mainline to EWR, SFO, and IAH on UA.
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:59 am

IND's economic presence is much more diverse than CMH. Don't get me wrong, I think Columbus is a GREAT medium sized market, but you guys are still in that 'oversized college town stage'. Also, the tech industry is CMHs only strong suit right now. You guys gotta build in other areas, too. I truly think you guys will grow out of that as you guys continue to grow. Once Columbus puts their eggs into multiple baskets on a large level (Indy did this with sports, conventions, tech, etc.) I think CMH will begin to catch up connectivity wise. Also, CMH is one of the least diverse medium sized markets out there, but that might change in the future.

EDIT: CMH's growth can also be affected by regional competition from CVG and CLE.

Indiana is going to support IND and its growth, and invest into it fully.

Ohio will let the 'big three' fight it out.....
Last edited by zackary747 on Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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WWads
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:49 am

IPFreely wrote:
papatango wrote:
Delta needs to jump on flights to SLC. SEA and AMS/CDG before someone else does!


Who is going to jump on it? The demand for CMH-SLC and CMH-SEA for O/D traffic can't be that big. And if DL used CMH-SLC-XXX as a connecting route for other west coast cities it would just cannibalize traffic they already have on CMH-ATL-XXX routes.


Exactly. CMH-SLC would be about pushing connecting traffic to cities that aren't served adequately served by other DL hubs. CMH-ATL/DTW/MSP gets the vast majority of people ex-CMH where they need to go.
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:49 am

papatango wrote:
Delta needs to jump on flights to SLC. SEA and AMS/CDG before someone else does!


Who is going to jump on it? The demand for CMH-SLC and CMH-SEA for O/D traffic can't be that big. And if DL used CMH-SLC-XXX as a connecting route for other west coast cities it would just cannibalize traffic they already have on CMH-ATL-XXX routes.
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:43 am

IPFreely wrote:
papatango wrote:
Delta needs to jump on flights to SLC. SEA and AMS/CDG before someone else does!


Who is going to jump on it? The demand for CMH-SLC and CMH-SEA for O/D traffic can't be that big. And if DL used CMH-SLC-XXX as a connecting route for other west coast cities it would just cannibalize traffic they already have on CMH-ATL-XXX routes.


The top 5 largest unserved O/D markets from SLC were Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Columbus, and Lihue. Of those, Cleveland and Pittsburgh have been announced. I imagine that of the remaining 3, Columbus and Lihue are fairly viable depending on what aircraft Delta has available to launch it. It is just too easy to connect in DTW or MSP for Buffalo and those small, long-stange length routes are not a priority for Delta. But Hawaii demand from SLC is very strong, and Columbus seems like a good addition to DL's portfolio in SLC. I don't like the provincialism on this forum towards Midwestern cities but CMH-SLC seems like a reasonable possibility otherwise.

In response to the original question, because it do be like that sometimes? I don't know what you want us to say. Some cities just have stronger sectors than others, and IND is a bit stronger than CMH in commercial aviation. I really don't know what kind of an answer the poster is expecting. Columbus is inhabited by a race of mutant people who are 12 feet tall and can't fit in airplane seats?
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:54 am

jubguy3 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
papatango wrote:
Delta needs to jump on flights to SLC. SEA and AMS/CDG before someone else does!


Who is going to jump on it? The demand for CMH-SLC and CMH-SEA for O/D traffic can't be that big. And if DL used CMH-SLC-XXX as a connecting route for other west coast cities it would just cannibalize traffic they already have on CMH-ATL-XXX routes.


The top 5 largest unserved O/D markets from SLC were Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Columbus, and Lihue. Of those, Cleveland and Pittsburgh have been announced. I imagine that of the remaining 3, Columbus and Lihue are fairly viable depending on what aircraft Delta has available to launch it. It is just too easy to connect in DTW or MSP for Buffalo and those small, long-stange length routes are not a priority for Delta. But Hawaii demand from SLC is very strong, and Columbus seems like a good addition to DL's portfolio in SLC. I don't like the provincialism on this forum towards Midwestern cities but CMH-SLC seems like a reasonable possibility otherwise.

In response to the original question, because it do be like that sometimes? I don't know what you want us to say. Some cities just have stronger sectors than others, and IND is a bit stronger than CMH in commercial aviation. I really don't know what kind of an answer the poster is expecting. Columbus is inhabited by a race of mutant people who are 12 feet tall and can't fit in airplane seats?


Nah the real reason is that the airlines want to minimize the outside world's exposure to Ohio State fans.
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:06 am

WWads wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:



Nah the real reason is that the airlines want to minimize the outside world's exposure to Ohio State fans.



Haha as someone who did not grow up in Ohio, but moved here later in life, I got a real chuckle out of this reply. I never realized how many fans they had until I moved here.
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ibthebigd
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:24 am

I get jealous of what RDU compared to IND. I hope IND gets some p2p back from DL.

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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:34 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Cargo is a large difference:

In terms of Nonstop Networks
IND- has CHS, SRQ, AZA, PIT, SAN, MCI, SLC, SEA, and SFO which CMH/LCK don't
I.


IND has nonstop service to CHS? On who?
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:47 am

admanager wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Cargo is a large difference:

In terms of Nonstop Networks
IND- has CHS, SRQ, AZA, PIT, SAN, MCI, SLC, SEA, and SFO which CMH/LCK don't
I.


IND has nonstop service to CHS? On who?
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:14 am

As someone alluded to I think the key is this. Indiana is a one trick pony— Indianapolis but not much else. Therefore the states attention is not divided— as evidence the GOVERNOR was at the CDG announcement.

Ohio is very divided between three large metro areas. in fact there is a rivalry between the three Cs. No governor in sight for the recent Iceland announcements. CMH is the capital of OH but it’s not the capital in every dimension like Indy is.
 
brooklynchris13
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:21 pm

Many good points brought up to this point and I will add a few more and summarize. (with a good friend and fellow aviation geek in IND and me in CMH, I have actually been having this same discussion for years, thanks for giving it a forum..)
-IND's regional GDP is a bit higher than CMH (for now)
-IND does not have to share their local market with two commercial airports (CMH + LCK)
-IND has more convention business than CMH (was trying to find the stat, but I think it is pretty significant)
-IND has a somewhat higher profile than CMH nationally with an NFL and NBA team, compared to CMH with The Bluejackets and Ohio State.
-IND has the huge FedEx hub which I am certain accounts for a fair amount of passenger traffic (rising tide lifts all boats)
-IND (as other mentioned) is the premier airport in the state, with EVV, FWA, SBD not really being at the same level. CMH has to share the overall Ohio market with CVG, DAY, CAK, CLE, HTS, and to a lesser extent TOL, PIT, FWA, and DTW)
In the longer term, however, the market here in Columbus is growing, with Greater Columbus poised to become to state's largest economy, significant growth and development in the downtown and other areas, interest from new companies, growth in air travel (thank you Spirit), and a new director at the Airport Authority who seems to be a bit more aggressive about new and expanded air service.
It will be an interesting few years and no one really knows if the whole process will continue, but CMH and IND are still somewhat like a big brother and slightly younger brother who is steadily catching up. Maybe a Peyton and Eli situation after all?
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ScottB
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:59 pm

brooklynchris13 wrote:
-IND's regional GDP is a bit higher than CMH (for now)


Also keep in mind that while both Indianapolis and Columbus host their respective state capitals, Ohio's state government is much larger than Indiana's -- annual state spending in Ohio is nearly four times as large as in Indiana. Consequently, the state government's share of regional GDP is quite a bit larger in Columbus, and the travel that the government will generate will be overwhelmingly focused in-state. Also, OSU accounts for a big chunk of Columbus-region GDP and its student body is nearly 70% Ohoian (and just over 10% foreign) -- so the university may contribute a bit less to travel than one might otherwise expect. Indiana University isn't considered to be in the Indianapolis region as far as regional GDP is considered, but much of its travel would still tend to use IND, so that would tend to boost IND's numbers beyond what the regional GDP would suggest.

brooklynchris13 wrote:
-IND (as other mentioned) is the premier airport in the state, with EVV, FWA, SBD not really being at the same level. CMH has to share the overall Ohio market with CVG, DAY, CAK, CLE, HTS, and to a lesser extent TOL, PIT, FWA, and DTW)


Well, arguably IND does have to share some of its state market with MDW, ORD, GYY (ha!), SDF, and CVG, which are all located in metros with sizable Indiana suburbs. But as others have pointed out, the largest issue is proximity to both CVG & CLE, which likely overlap even more into CMH's catchment region by virtue of having hosted large network carrier hubs (because old habits and frequent flyer loyalty take a long time to go away).
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:19 pm

ScottB wrote:
brooklynchris13 wrote:
-IND's regional GDP is a bit higher than CMH (for now)


Also keep in mind that while both Indianapolis and Columbus host their respective state capitals, Ohio's state government is much larger than Indiana's -- annual state spending in Ohio is nearly four times as large as in Indiana. Consequently, the state government's share of regional GDP is quite a bit larger in Columbus, and the travel that the government will generate will be overwhelmingly focused in-state. Also, OSU accounts for a big chunk of Columbus-region GDP and its student body is nearly 70% Ohoian (and just over 10% foreign) -- so the university may contribute a bit less to travel than one might otherwise expect. Indiana University isn't considered to be in the Indianapolis region as far as regional GDP is considered, but much of its travel would still tend to use IND, so that would tend to boost IND's numbers beyond what the regional GDP would suggest.



IU and Purdue account for a large portion of air travel from IND to Florida, California, and Mexico during breaks
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izbtmnhd
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:30 pm

Not complex...not quite sure we need a thread on this.

IND is serving the only largish market in the Indiana. Ohio, despite being a much larger state population-wise, is split between three largish markets of roughly the same size: C-bus, Cincy and C-land.

Not to mention LCK, as stated above.

Also, DAY is somewhat close to the west side/suburbs of Columbus.

Ohio has lots of aviation infrastructure Indiana lacks.

IND has more growth potential but it will never be a hub or a major aviation player for pax. Just way too close to Chicago.

CMH could become one a major player over time. Central Ohio's population growth rate is increasing and it's going to be the true largest market in Ohio in few decades passing the Cleveland/Akron CSA. I know Indy is growing too but I think being in the shadow of Chicagoland dosen't help it's case, as I stated above.
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:52 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ScottB wrote:
brooklynchris13 wrote:
-IND's regional GDP is a bit higher than CMH (for now)


Also keep in mind that while both Indianapolis and Columbus host their respective state capitals, Ohio's state government is much larger than Indiana's -- annual state spending in Ohio is nearly four times as large as in Indiana. Consequently, the state government's share of regional GDP is quite a bit larger in Columbus, and the travel that the government will generate will be overwhelmingly focused in-state. Also, OSU accounts for a big chunk of Columbus-region GDP and its student body is nearly 70% Ohoian (and just over 10% foreign) -- so the university may contribute a bit less to travel than one might otherwise expect. Indiana University isn't considered to be in the Indianapolis region as far as regional GDP is considered, but much of its travel would still tend to use IND, so that would tend to boost IND's numbers beyond what the regional GDP would suggest.



IU and Purdue account for a large portion of air travel from IND to Florida, California, and Mexico during breaks


I would say the catchment of IND can be drawn by a box along US150 from Vincennes to Shoals, up US50 to Seymour, and further east to North Vernon, turn north along the eastern border in IN-3 from North Vernon up to Greensburg and up to Muncie, maybe up to around IN-18, then across from Marion, IN to Lafayette, down the Wabash to Terre Haute and back to Vincennes.

Meanwhile, CMH western reach is limited by DAY, southwestern reach by CVG, and northeastern reach by CLE/CAK (I would say Mansfield is about as far NE as one can go, along I-71). Southeast of CMH metro is Applachia (there's HTS in that area, but that area is just not all that populated in general). Northwest of CMH you got the like of Lima, OH or Findlay, OH (Both I've absolutely no clue which airport would works best - FWA? DAY? or up north to TOL or even DTW?).

Either way, it's the same conclusion - CMH is constraint by two other fair size airports (CVG/CLE) and two mid-size airport (CAK/DAY), while IND's geographical catchment included half of the state, including pretty much all the university towns in the state (IU/Purdue, but also Ball State in Muncie or ISU/Rose-Hulman in Terre Haute) and industrial town (Kokomo, Columbus IN, etc.).

izbtmnhd wrote:
Not complex...not quite sure we need a thread on this.

IND is serving the only largish market in the Indiana. Ohio, despite being a much larger state population-wise, is split between three largish markets of roughly the same size: C-bus, Cincy and C-land.

Not to mention LCK, as stated above.

Also, DAY is somewhat close to the west side/suburbs of Columbus.

Ohio has lots of aviation infrastructure Indiana lacks.

IND has more growth potential but it will never be a hub or a major aviation player for pax. Just way too close to Chicago.

CMH could become one a major player over time. Central Ohio's population growth rate is increasing and it's going to be the true largest market in Ohio in few decades passing the Cleveland/Akron CSA. I know Indy is growing too but I think being in the shadow of Chicagoland dosen't help it's case, as I stated above.


Meh, maybe Indy can become Chicago South once people finally have enough with the mess in Springfield (IL) and the mess that's Chicago politics. Wait, crime-wise it IS already Chicago South. :stirthepot:
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:59 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

Meh, maybe Indy can become Chicago South once people finally have enough with the mess in Springfield (IL) and the mess that's Chicago politics. Wait, crime-wise it IS already Chicago South. :stirthepot:


You may have a point as it's already happening. Chicagoland is losing population now. Cook County (not just Chicago city) is losing population at the same rate as Cuyahoga County, Ohio (CLE) and Allegheny County, PA (PIT) according to the last census estimates just released. Who knows what the future holds?
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:01 pm

IND's western reach goes well past the state line into east central Illinois.
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:13 pm

My family near Plymouth will regularly use IND over SBN because of more flight options at better prices and it's way easier to drive 2 hours and change to IND than to MDW/ORD. The catchment area is quite large, indeed.

Also, the point about FedEx isn't about it helping passenger numbers, but FedEx subcontracting cargo into the belly of scheduled passenger service which can really help to pay the bills, particularly for international flights.
 
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:23 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
My family near Plymouth will regularly use IND over SBN because of more flight options at better prices and it's way easier to drive 2 hours and change to IND than to MDW/ORD. The catchment area is quite large, indeed.

Also, the point about FedEx isn't about it helping passenger numbers, but FedEx subcontracting cargo into the belly of scheduled passenger service which can really help to pay the bills, particularly for international flights.


Plus, IND is served by respectable carriers, unlike FWA & SBN, which get the scraps of SkyWest, flying their trash heap 200's that are broken, to MX bases. The delays are continuous to both FWA & SBN.
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:28 pm

Yeah, I know people as far north as Lake County (which directly borders the city of Chicago for anyone unaware) that will choose IND over ORD because it's just as much time to drive there if going on a weekday due to traffic and it just a far easier experience overall.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:24 pm

Part of the problem at CMH is the local government doesn't seem to want to open up their wallets to new service, at least as compared to CLE, CVG, IND, and Christina Cassotis' magical money tree at PIT. It sounds to me like the business community gets that some of the service "holes" will have to be bought, but it's politicians who aren't on board. CRAA did fund CMH-OAK on WN, though it's unclear as to whether or not any incentive money was actually paid out. WN said they were confident the route could support itself and were right.

As for the future, CRAA just got a new CEO in Joe Nardone who previously ran DTW and seems like more of a go-getter than his predecessor. Their 2018 Community Report just came out and SEA, SFO, SLC, SAN, TATL to a "European hub", and a (highly unlikely) TPAC flight are among the targets at the top of the list which they claim to be working toward this year: https://newshub.columbusairports.com/st ... -next1.pdf

Of those, it takes two to tango: Columbus (business, government, CRAA) and an airline; CRAA explains its process in the link above. Some of them are obvious (SLC/DL, SFO/AS or UA (though UA has added everything around EXCEPT CMH), while others are more unclear; SAN would probably be more suited to an NK or WN, while SEA could be DL (hub), AS (hub), F9, NK (P2P), or maybe WN (seems the biggest longshot). We've seen over the last six months or so that DL has been named as in talks for CMH-AMS/-CDG, and there was even a false alarm that it was going to be announced in October. The only other mainland Europe spot which would make sense would be LHR and CRAA has said in past "BA" (probably on an AA 757) has talked with the airport. Will any of them happen? This year? We'll see.

I think a lot of the secondary markets IND has now in terms of service Midwestindy listed could be possibilities for G4, who have carved out their own little playground at LCK. I'm surprised they haven't tried LAS or AZA to this point and a lot of the points in the Southeast seem to wind up with service to most if not all of PIT/CVG/IND/LCK at some point. I also think NK's got lots of potential with 7 destinations right out of the gate, though I'd prefer they add new cities rather than dump fares on currently-served routes.
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Midwestindy
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:03 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, I know people as far north as Lake County (which directly borders the city of Chicago for anyone unaware) that will choose IND over ORD because it's just as much time to drive there if going on a weekday due to traffic and it just a far easier experience overall.


35% of traffic from Bloomington, Illinois goes to IND.....
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:31 pm

fedex1 wrote:
Where did you find or get that number of 35%?!


http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/ ... hreat.html
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fedex1
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:32 pm

Where did you find or get that number of 35%?!
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:54 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Where did you find or get that number of 35%?!


http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/ ... hreat.html


That would actually be referring to Champign-Urbana (CMI) instead of Bloomington-Normal (BMI). Not too surprising, though, with the limited services at CMI (pretty much to ORD only, with 1 single flight to DFW daily). The service is limited even compare to BMI, which has G4 service (and used to have FL service I believe) and also flights to ATL.
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:35 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Part of the problem at CMH is the local government doesn't seem to want to open up their wallets to new service, at least as compared to CLE, CVG, IND, and Christina Cassotis' magical money tree at PIT. It sounds to me like the business community gets that some of the service "holes" will have to be bought, but it's politicians who aren't on board. CRAA did fund CMH-OAK on WN, though it's unclear as to whether or not any incentive money was actually paid out. WN said they were confident the route could support itself and were right.

The differences in CVG and CMH continue to surprise me. To my knowledge, CVG has not been giving incentives for any of the passenger flights added unlike CLE/PIT/IND (cargo is a completely different story, CVG and Kentucky continue to pay millions for incentives and construction work to support DHL and Amazon).

CVG has an "incentive" plan, but it just waives landing/operation fees and pays for marketing support. I am not sure that WOW received anything besides reduced ticketing/gates fees (and I am not 100% sure they are even getting these). WN was a little different, but that was largely the work of the business community which did make some contracts with WN. The only thing I can think of is that the landing/operation fees at CVG/CMH are much lower compared to PIT/CLE/IND, so direct incentives might not be needed. While this doesn't explain the difference between CVG/CMH, it might explain why PIT/IND hand out incentives left and right, while CMH/CVG do nothing. These were the CPE figures I found for 2016:
CLE - $19.70
PIT - $16.70
IND - $10.11
CMH - $7.30
CVG - $6.90
 
DeltaRules
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:40 pm

cvgComair wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Part of the problem at CMH is the local government doesn't seem to want to open up their wallets to new service, at least as compared to CLE, CVG, IND, and Christina Cassotis' magical money tree at PIT. It sounds to me like the business community gets that some of the service "holes" will have to be bought, but it's politicians who aren't on board. CRAA did fund CMH-OAK on WN, though it's unclear as to whether or not any incentive money was actually paid out. WN said they were confident the route could support itself and were right.

The differences in CVG and CMH continue to surprise me. To my knowledge, CVG has not been giving incentives for any of the passenger flights added unlike CLE/PIT/IND (cargo is a completely different story, CVG and Kentucky continue to pay millions for incentives and construction work to support DHL and Amazon).

CVG has an "incentive" plan, but it just waives landing/operation fees and pays for marketing support. I am not sure that WOW received anything besides reduced ticketing/gates fees (and I am not 100% sure they are even getting these). WN was a little different, but that was largely the work of the business community which did make some contracts with WN. The only thing I can think of is that the landing/operation fees at CVG/CMH are much lower compared to PIT/CLE/IND, so direct incentives might not be needed. While this doesn't explain the difference between CVG/CMH, it might explain why PIT/IND hand out incentives left and right, while CMH/CVG do nothing. These were the CPE figures I found for 2016:
CLE - $19.70
PIT - $16.70
IND - $10.11
CMH - $7.30
CVG - $6.90
There was an article in The Columbus Dispatch a couple of weeks ago that posted numbers similar to the ones you had for 2016.

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Midwestindy
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Re: CMH VS IND

Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:55 pm

cvgComair wrote:
The differences in CVG and CMH continue to surprise me. To my knowledge, CVG has not been giving incentives for any of the passenger flights added unlike CLE/PIT/IND (cargo is a completely different story, CVG and Kentucky continue to pay millions for incentives and construction work to support DHL and Amazon).

The only thing I can think of is that the landing/operation fees at CVG/CMH are much lower compared to PIT/CLE/IND, so direct incentives might not be needed. While this doesn't explain the difference between CVG/CMH, it might explain why PIT/IND hand out incentives left and right, while CMH/CVG do nothing. These were the CPE figures I found for 2016:
CLE - $19.70
PIT - $16.70
IND - $10.11
CMH - $7.30
CVG - $6.90


The only incentives IND has given was for the CDG flights (which haven't been given yet), and that wasn't from IND that was the state
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stl07
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:13 am

Midwestindy wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, I know people as far north as Lake County (which directly borders the city of Chicago for anyone unaware) that will choose IND over ORD because it's just as much time to drive there if going on a weekday due to traffic and it just a far easier experience overall.


35% of traffic from Bloomington, Illinois goes to IND.....

Piggybacking off of this but people from even as far as the STL metro area actively use IND. The airport's convenience shaves of half an hour to an hour so really its only 2-3 hours extra drive time from STL and a better experience with cheaper fares.
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ibthebigd
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:15 am

I have drove from LEX to IND for the nonstop to SAN. It was worth the 3 hour drive!

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Midwestindy
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:22 am

ibthebigd wrote:
I have drove from LEX to IND for the nonstop to SAN. It was worth the 3 hour drive!

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I sat next to a father and son a couple weeks ago from SDF who drove up for the n/s on WN to BOS
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zakuivcustom
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
I have drove from LEX to IND for the nonstop to SAN. It was worth the 3 hour drive!

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I sat next to a father and son a couple weeks ago from SDF who drove up for the n/s on WN to BOS


But how many of those people are there, though? It is not like you see that many Kentucky plates at IND.

A place like Champaign IL, which has 35% of its air traffic using IND, is significant and is definitely in the catchment area of IND. But for Louisville, that number is maybe 5%? Even CVG is closer than IND for Louisville.
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LupineChemist
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:12 pm

Another factor that I forgot, opening of I-69 all the way to Indy will make it a lot more attractive for even Evansville to make it into the catchment area where right now it's clearly better to head to STL or SDF depending on needs.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:32 pm

stl07 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, I know people as far north as Lake County (which directly borders the city of Chicago for anyone unaware) that will choose IND over ORD because it's just as much time to drive there if going on a weekday due to traffic and it just a far easier experience overall.


35% of traffic from Bloomington, Illinois goes to IND.....

Piggybacking off of this but people from even as far as the STL metro area actively use IND. The airport's convenience shaves of half an hour to an hour so really its only 2-3 hours extra drive time from STL and a better experience with cheaper fares.


This is all anecdotal.

Is there any hard data on how many people from LEX, SDF, STL, SAN :smile:, NRT :D are using IND?

My cousin-in-law lives in Fort Wayne and always uses DTW. Does this mean Fort Wayne is in Detroit's area?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:37 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Another factor that I forgot, opening of I-69 all the way to Indy will make it a lot more attractive for even Evansville to make it into the catchment area where right now it's clearly better to head to STL or SDF depending on needs.


Which won't happen for another 20 years at the current pace :rotfl: :rotfl: (I live near Bloomington, IN...talk about construction pain, and the section north of Martinsville won't start until the current section b/t Bloomington and Martinsville is finished).

And EVV traffic I would say can head south to BNA also if one desired. Not sure how many people do that, though. (Evansville is closer to Nashville than St. Louis anyway).

EDIT:
izbtmnhd wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

35% of traffic from Bloomington, Illinois goes to IND.....

Piggybacking off of this but people from even as far as the STL metro area actively use IND. The airport's convenience shaves of half an hour to an hour so really its only 2-3 hours extra drive time from STL and a better experience with cheaper fares.


This is all anecdotal.

Is there any hard data on how many people from LEX, SDF, STL, SAN :smile:, NRT :D are using IND?

My cousin-in-law lives in Fort Wayne and always uses DTW. Does this mean Fort Wayne is in Detroit's area?


To be fair, using Google Map distance, Fort Wayne is 138mi from IND and 148mi from DTW, so it's not a stretch to say that it's within DTW's catchment area.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DeltaRules
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:42 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ScottB wrote:

Also keep in mind that while both Indianapolis and Columbus host their respective state capitals, Ohio's state government is much larger than Indiana's -- annual state spending in Ohio is nearly four times as large as in Indiana. Consequently, the state government's share of regional GDP is quite a bit larger in Columbus, and the travel that the government will generate will be overwhelmingly focused in-state. Also, OSU accounts for a big chunk of Columbus-region GDP and its student body is nearly 70% Ohoian (and just over 10% foreign) -- so the university may contribute a bit less to travel than one might otherwise expect. Indiana University isn't considered to be in the Indianapolis region as far as regional GDP is considered, but much of its travel would still tend to use IND, so that would tend to boost IND's numbers beyond what the regional GDP would suggest.



IU and Purdue account for a large portion of air travel from IND to Florida, California, and Mexico during breaks


I would say the catchment of IND can be drawn by a box along US150 from Vincennes to Shoals, up US50 to Seymour, and further east to North Vernon, turn north along the eastern border in IN-3 from North Vernon up to Greensburg and up to Muncie, maybe up to around IN-18, then across from Marion, IN to Lafayette, down the Wabash to Terre Haute and back to Vincennes.

Meanwhile, CMH western reach is limited by DAY, southwestern reach by CVG, and northeastern reach by CLE/CAK (I would say Mansfield is about as far NE as one can go, along I-71). Southeast of CMH metro is Applachia (there's HTS in that area, but that area is just not all that populated in general). Northwest of CMH you got the like of Lima, OH or Findlay, OH (Both I've absolutely no clue which airport would works best - FWA? DAY? or up north to TOL or even DTW?).

Either way, it's the same conclusion - CMH is constraint by two other fair size airports (CVG/CLE) and two mid-size airport (CAK/DAY), while IND's geographical catchment included half of the state, including pretty much all the university towns in the state (IU/Purdue, but also Ball State in Muncie or ISU/Rose-Hulman in Terre Haute) and industrial town (Kokomo, Columbus IN, etc.).


I looked this up for a big post about potential TATL flights a while back. You have to get to Mansfield to the NE, about Lima in the NW, and Wilmington to the SW before CLE, DTW, and CVG respectively become equidistant. Columbus is the only good option to the E for quite a ways (to the N and E of Cambridge) before PIT and/or CAK become equidistant. To the SE (including Athens, home of OU), there's nothing except PKB, which has sketchy EAS flights to CLT; CMH/LCK is still the best option.

Other than in a couple cases where somebody was chasing ridiculously low fares on either F9 or WW, I've never heard of anybody between Columbus and Zanesville choosing anything other than CMH or DAY. We always used DAY as the secondary airport when I was a kid and only actually flew out of there once.
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StuckinCMHland
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:06 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

IU and Purdue account for a large portion of air travel from IND to Florida, California, and Mexico during breaks


I would say the catchment of IND can be drawn by a box along US150 from Vincennes to Shoals, up US50 to Seymour, and further east to North Vernon, turn north along the eastern border in IN-3 from North Vernon up to Greensburg and up to Muncie, maybe up to around IN-18, then across from Marion, IN to Lafayette, down the Wabash to Terre Haute and back to Vincennes.

Meanwhile, CMH western reach is limited by DAY, southwestern reach by CVG, and northeastern reach by CLE/CAK (I would say Mansfield is about as far NE as one can go, along I-71). Southeast of CMH metro is Applachia (there's HTS in that area, but that area is just not all that populated in general). Northwest of CMH you got the like of Lima, OH or Findlay, OH (Both I've absolutely no clue which airport would works best - FWA? DAY? or up north to TOL or even DTW?).

Either way, it's the same conclusion - CMH is constraint by two other fair size airports (CVG/CLE) and two mid-size airport (CAK/DAY), while IND's geographical catchment included half of the state, including pretty much all the university towns in the state (IU/Purdue, but also Ball State in Muncie or ISU/Rose-Hulman in Terre Haute) and industrial town (Kokomo, Columbus IN, etc.).


I looked this up for a big post about potential TATL flights a while back. You have to get to Mansfield to the NE, about Lima in the NW, and Wilmington to the SW before CLE, DTW, and CVG respectively become equidistant. Columbus is the only good option to the E for quite a ways (to the N and E of Cambridge) before PIT and/or CAK become equidistant. To the SE (including Athens, home of OU), there's nothing except PKB, which has sketchy EAS flights to CLT; CMH/LCK is still the best option.

Other than in a couple cases where somebody was chasing ridiculously low fares on either F9 or WW, I've never heard of anybody between Columbus and Zanesville choosing anything other than CMH or DAY. We always used DAY as the secondary airport when I was a kid and only actually flew out of there once.



Delta Rules Rules again! I live in that little corner of Ohio around Athens, and CMH is the only place for us to go. We would occasionally go to DAY if a cheap fare on Delta or United, but those days are long gone. One time we went to CLE for a non-stop to SFO but it was such a mess to find lodging, parking, and fighting traffic it's now a non-starter too. CMH is the only alternative for many parts of Ohio.
 
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stl07
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Re: CMH VS IND

Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:49 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

35% of traffic from Bloomington, Illinois goes to IND.....

Piggybacking off of this but people from even as far as the STL metro area actively use IND. The airport's convenience shaves of half an hour to an hour so really its only 2-3 hours extra drive time from STL and a better experience with cheaper fares.


This is all anecdotal.

Is there any hard data on how many people from LEX, SDF, STL, SAN :smile:, NRT :D are using IND?

My cousin-in-law lives in Fort Wayne and always uses DTW. Does this mean Fort Wayne is in Detroit's area?

Well, there's no hard data but that doesn't mean it's not happening. (except for NRT, but hey - you never know)

But after a trip out of Indy airport one can see why :) the only airport I'v seen that's better is BOM
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bwohlgemuth
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Re: CMH VS IND

Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:20 am

I live near FWA and stopped using it last year. I now drive to MDW to normally catch a non-stop to LAX (which MDW has six different non-stops daily). I get tired of transiting through ORD or DFW....I would consider IND but there are only a few non-stops to LAX.

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