acjbbj
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KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:28 pm

Why were all of KLM's MD-11s scrapped? OR, at least why were none of them converted for freighters? They had plenty of life left in them...

Didn't Finnair's MD-11's go to Western Global?
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ELBOB
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:10 am

I suspect it was because the resale value of an F-converted MD-11 would be substantially less than the cost of a conversion ( door + reinforced roller floor ). As far as I know, no-one other than Boeing has an STC for the conversion so that'd add cost for certification, assuming they're no longer interested.
 
RalXWB
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:25 am

They did not have plenty live left, the oldest one was from 1993. I also think that cycles had something to do since KLM was flying them from the beginning...
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:46 pm

acjbbj wrote:
Why were all of KLM's MD-11s scrapped? OR, at least why were none of them converted for freighters? They had plenty of life left in them...


As mentioned above, they were pretty old. Even if well maintained, aircraft have limited amounts of cycles and hours available. As they age, they also start breaking more and more, requiring much more frequent servicing. It all adds up over time.
At the time, nobody was really building fleets of MD-11 freighters either. FedEx was already phasing out a few frames at the time.

But you can be pretty certain that the spare parts were highly valuable, and got snapped up to keep the remaining global MD-11 fleet going.

acjbbj wrote:
Didn't Finnair's MD-11's go to Western Global?


Only 2 of them, and only after a brief service with another Finnish airline. 1 went to Ethiopian, who scrapped it. 1 went to CargoItalia, and never flew after that airline went bust. 1 is with FedEx. Remaining 3 went to World Airways, and never flew after than airline shut down.
 
KICT
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:19 am

acjbbj wrote:
They had plenty of life left in them...

The only "life" they had left in them was in the form of their engines.
While not the case with ex-KLM frames, Delta actually did purchase some MD-11 freighters in recent years.
Why? For their engines which can be used on the 767 fleet.
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acjbbj
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:11 pm

So, PH/KCK ran out of life after "only" 16 years?
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DeltaMD95
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:35 am

acjbbj wrote:
So, PH/KCK ran out of life after "only" 16 years?


No kidding. There are FX MD-10s from the early ‘70s still chugging along but 16-19 year old MD-11s were too long in the tooth? Baloney.

The timing wasn’t right. The wave of MD-11 freighter conversions had passed. But the age of the airframe and it certified limits had nothing to do with it.
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:04 am

MD-90s are not "long in the tooth" either, but when there is a single engine shop in the world that services that version of the V2500, the business case gets harder and harder to justify. Hence, Delta is parking MD-90s. I'm sure there are similar supplier constraints with the MD-11. The only thing left of value on them are the engines. Even FedEx has MD-11s parked in the desert...
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747Whale
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:12 am

There's a whole lot more of value on them than engines. With a very limited number of MD11's, the parts can be quite scarce; in may cases the only source for those parts are other MD11's. Some are rare, high priced, and it's a simple fact that one can't keep all the MD11's flying; some will have to serve as parts beds for the others. And they do. There's a lot on the airplanes that get used for parts than just engines.
 
acjbbj
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:30 pm

One MD-11, I saw on PlaneSpotters.net that said it was purchased by Federal Express, but the notes stated "Will not enter service. Purchased for parts."
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:25 pm

acjbbj wrote:
Why were all of KLM's MD-11s scrapped? OR, at least why were none of them converted for freighters? They had plenty of life left in them...


They had the disadvantage of having to be converted before serving as freighter. Look at the former EVA AIr Cargo below. It was manufactured as a freighter, delivered after KLM took feliversy of its last MD-11 and still, it's been scrapped while most other of BR are still stored



acjbbj wrote:
Didn't Finnair's MD-11's go to Western Global?


Just the two that were converted to freighter and briefly operated by Nordic Global before going west.


acjbbj wrote:
One MD-11, I saw on PlaneSpotters.net that said it was purchased by Federal Express, but the notes stated "Will not enter service. Purchased for parts."


I know several former World Airways MD-11s were purchased by FX for that reason.
 
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:59 pm

DeltaMD95 wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
So, PH/KCK ran out of life after "only" 16 years?


No kidding. There are FX MD-10s from the early ‘70s still chugging along but 16-19 year old MD-11s were too long in the tooth? Baloney.

The timing wasn’t right. The wave of MD-11 freighter conversions had passed. But the age of the airframe and it certified limits had nothing to do with it.


By the time the KLM MD-11s were retired, was there even an active MD-11 conversion line anymore?
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zerogt
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:07 am

MD-90s are not "long in the tooth" either, but when there is a single engine shop in the world that services that version of the V2500, the business case gets harder and harder to justify.

Wondering why you think there is only one shop left? I know at minimum a second i guess which did a lot D5 in the past.

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unimproved
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:12 pm

Absolutely nobody is looking for a freighter, much less a passenger version.


The KLM/Martinair cargo MD11's were retired not long after, and out of 7 a/c 2 went to FedEx (but never entered service and were only used for parts). SkyLease scrapped another and the rest was stored to be dismantled for parts.
 
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:42 pm

zerogt wrote:
MD-90s are not "long in the tooth" either, but when there is a single engine shop in the world that services that version of the V2500, the business case gets harder and harder to justify.

Wondering why you think there is only one shop left? I know at minimum a second i guess which did a lot D5 in the past.

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I believe 2 shops, but none in the Americas. Neither is known for low bids. They make DL take all schedule risk.

Parts for the MD-11 are dear. That is just the nature of small fleets and why FedEx buys used examples for parts.

Sadly, the fleet is on the end run. I expect Boeing to work for a 777 conversion to keep in the category.

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acjbbj
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:10 am

How long will the MD-11 be in service? Will it last 50 years? 60?
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747Whale
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:41 am

it's going to run until no longer economically viable. UPS would like to get rid of theirs, as would Fedex, but there's nothing available to replace them that can do it for the cost, especially given wholly owned. At this point, they're throw-away aircraft that will get run until they're run-out, cycled out, or just can't be maintained.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:04 am

acjbbj wrote:
How long will the MD-11 be in service? Will it last 50 years? 60?


Good question. How many are still active?

IMO, there is a good chance the MD-11F will be the last airliner built out of Long Beach to see active service.
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acjbbj
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:19 am

DeltaMD95 wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
How long will the MD-11 be in service? Will it last 50 years? 60?


Good question. How many are still active?

IMO, there is a good chance the MD-11F will be the last airliner built out of Long Beach to see active service.


121 still flying. Active MD-11 cargo service in 2051?

Will the 717 only see ~30 years of service?
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:05 pm

The limiting factor of the whole MD11 fleet is the availability of the electronic hardware used in the electronic LRU’s. The components used, especially IC’s, are no longer produced and new old stock is very difficult to source.
Replacing these components with up to date hardware requires very high (re)certification costs.
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acjbbj
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:09 pm

747classic wrote:
The limiting factor of the whole MD11 fleet is the availability of the electronic hardware used in the electronic LRU’s. The components used, especially IC’s, are no longer produced and new old stock is very difficult to source.

Replacing these components with up to date hardware requires very high (re)certification costs.


Yep. That right there. The electronics might be the deal breaker because you cannot start using fake chips and run the risk of up to 80,000 pounds of cargo coming crashing down because one of them managed to fail in cruise. And the re-certification wouldn't be worth it even newer components would be in production.
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Re: KLM MD-11 Scrapped

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:51 am

DeltaMD95 wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
So, PH/KCK ran out of life after "only" 16 years?


No kidding. There are FX MD-10s from the early ‘70s still chugging along but 16-19 year old MD-11s were too long in the tooth? Baloney.

The timing wasn’t right. The wave of MD-11 freighter conversions had passed. But the age of the airframe and it certified limits had nothing to do with it.


The parts are valuable for MD-11 freighter operators. A new conversion would not have enough value and life left to be worthwhile. KL has 787's to replace MD-11's, and they are more economical to operate. There are newer aircraft in current production available to replace MD-11 freighters. FX isn't adding to its fleet of MD-11's or MD-10's. The MD-10's are being replaced by 767-300F's. Going forward the MD-11F's will be leaving airlines lie LH and FX and go to second and third tier freight operators.

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