c933103
Posts: 3556
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:04 pm

N867DA wrote:
There's a market for high speed rail between San Francisco and Los Angeles but this became the poster child pork train (haha!)

An ideal service would have a stop at the urban core and one or two stops in suburban or peripheral cities:
LA
Stop 1
Stop 2
- hundreds of miles of travel -
Stop 3
Stop 4
San Francisco

Last-mile problems and connectivity issues abound but that's a problem for the future. Once the rail service begins development will focus on improving access to and from the rail corridor. This Central Valley Milk Train cannot complete on price or time with other modes of travel.

A viable concept got bludgeoned by politicking.

You could always run a number of trains with limited or no stops in between with only a few trains that stop in the middle.
This is a placeholder.
 
Bradin
Posts: 228
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:02 am

philabos wrote:
California could have purchased the Coast Line. It would never be high speed but would provide regional services.
The Valley route could have been double or triple tracked north of Bakersfield again providing regional service.
All for a fraction of the cost of CAHSR.
They probably haven't thought through this yet, but there is no sense in electrifying the portion they will build, because they cannot electrify the private railroads to access SF.
Going to LA is out of the question without a brand new railroad through a tunnel, but that's one of the rocks against this proposal failed.
This was always a solution in search of a problem.


Do you have a suggested route? Because the Coastline is pretty rugged at times, and there's potentially a lot of high value property there.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:25 pm

At least the Coastline already has the right-of-way. Buy tilting trains so you can run at higher speeds.
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72,736,788
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af773atmsp
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:


Yeah, because airplanes never get stuck on the tarmac and people have to sit inside a metal tube for hours. :roll:
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72,736,788
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DL717
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:23 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:


Yeah, because airplanes never get stuck on the tarmac and people have to sit inside a metal tube for hours. :roll:


At least it’s not a day and a half.
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PHLspecial
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:04 pm

It's sad that HSR project turned political. Great idea, could have reduced traffic and less CO2 emissions. Economically linking small communities to the HSR would benefit them. Thinking about it most people live inside an hours drive from the LAX and SFO airports, clearing security can be up to half hour. The flight, taxi times, bordering can be up to two hours. Then commuting to the destination can take up to an hour plus. I guess on a really good day traveling from LA to SF by plane can 3 hours if you are super close by both airports. The HSR rail would have made traveling between the two cities much quicker and easier. Sad that NIMBY, cost overruns, and other factors derailed the project.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:00 am

PHLspecial wrote:
It's sad that HSR project turned political. Great idea, could have reduced traffic and less CO2 emissions. Economically linking small communities to the HSR would benefit them. Thinking about it most people live inside an hours drive from the LAX and SFO airports, clearing security can be up to half hour. The flight, taxi times, bordering can be up to two hours. Then commuting to the destination can take up to an hour plus. I guess on a really good day traveling from LA to SF by plane can 3 hours if you are super close by both airports. The HSR rail would have made traveling between the two cities much quicker and easier. Sad that NIMBY, cost overruns, and other factors derailed the project.


You’re assuming no travel from the departure point in LAX to Union Station and from SF station to destination.

GF
 
philabos
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:24 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:34 pm

Bradin wrote:
philabos wrote:
California could have purchased the Coast Line. It would never be high speed but would provide regional services.
The Valley route could have been double or triple tracked north of Bakersfield again providing regional service.
All for a fraction of the cost of CAHSR.
They probably haven't thought through this yet, but there is no sense in electrifying the portion they will build, because they cannot electrify the private railroads to access SF.
Going to LA is out of the question without a brand new railroad through a tunnel, but that's one of the rocks against this proposal failed.
This was always a solution in search of a problem.


Do you have a suggested route? Because the Coastline is pretty rugged at times, and there's potentially a lot of high value property there.


We don't need a suggested route, it's been there for over 100 years. Trains run on it every day.
The issue is capacity. It's mostly single track with passing sidings.
The owner, Union Pacific, is not about the expand capacity for passenger trains. They are in the freight business.
As I said, it would not be able to accommodate HSR, because is is curve ridden and the grades are not suitable.
Nevertheless, the money could have been spent to improve regional services and improve alignment where possible.
Academic now, the money is gone.
 
Bradin
Posts: 228
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:42 pm

philabos wrote:
Bradin wrote:
philabos wrote:
California could have purchased the Coast Line. It would never be high speed but would provide regional services.
The Valley route could have been double or triple tracked north of Bakersfield again providing regional service.
All for a fraction of the cost of CAHSR.
They probably haven't thought through this yet, but there is no sense in electrifying the portion they will build, because they cannot electrify the private railroads to access SF.
Going to LA is out of the question without a brand new railroad through a tunnel, but that's one of the rocks against this proposal failed.
This was always a solution in search of a problem.


Do you have a suggested route? Because the Coastline is pretty rugged at times, and there's potentially a lot of high value property there.


We don't need a suggested route, it's been there for over 100 years. Trains run on it every day.
The issue is capacity. It's mostly single track with passing sidings.
The owner, Union Pacific, is not about the expand capacity for passenger trains. They are in the freight business.
As I said, it would not be able to accommodate HSR, because is is curve ridden and the grades are not suitable.
Nevertheless, the money could have been spent to improve regional services and improve alignment where possible.
Academic now, the money is gone.


The money would not have been well spent on enhancing regional services or realigning tracks because:

1) There is no competitive advantage in taking the train up the coast to any of the destinations of interest. Automobiles and buses offer a similar travels times with greater frequency and flexibility. Planes provide relatively speedy travel between the markets like LA to SF after one gets past security.

2) There is no long term sustainable local demand outside large metropolitan.

3) Mixed use rail creates a whole host of other issues; including other regulatory issues. We see that even locally with Cal-Train or Metrolink.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:04 am

Upgrading the Coast Line between LA and SF with 7 or so daily roundtrips and slashing the travel time in half to around 6 hours would be a huge improvement over the status quo and cost a lot less than CAHSR.

If our government is too incompetent to build true HSR then we have to find a middle ground that's quicker, easier, and cheaper to implement. Upgrading existing services including the Coast Line is the middle ground.
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72,736,788
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Bradin
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:08 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Upgrading the Coast Line between LA and SF with 7 or so daily roundtrips and slashing the travel time in half to around 6 hours would be a huge improvement over the status quo and cost a lot less than CAHSR.

If our government is too incompetent to build true HSR then we have to find a middle ground that's quicker, easier, and cheaper to implement. Upgrading existing services including the Coast Line is the middle ground.


Except the rail is owned by Union Pacific....
 
af773atmsp
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:34 am

Bradin wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Upgrading the Coast Line between LA and SF with 7 or so daily roundtrips and slashing the travel time in half to around 6 hours would be a huge improvement over the status quo and cost a lot less than CAHSR.

If our government is too incompetent to build true HSR then we have to find a middle ground that's quicker, easier, and cheaper to implement. Upgrading existing services including the Coast Line is the middle ground.


Except the rail is owned by Union Pacific....


What makes you think they would refuse a free upgrade to their track? With the right amount of money any railroad will say yes.
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72,736,788
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Bradin
Posts: 228
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:49 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Bradin wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Upgrading the Coast Line between LA and SF with 7 or so daily roundtrips and slashing the travel time in half to around 6 hours would be a huge improvement over the status quo and cost a lot less than CAHSR.

If our government is too incompetent to build true HSR then we have to find a middle ground that's quicker, easier, and cheaper to implement. Upgrading existing services including the Coast Line is the middle ground.


Except the rail is owned by Union Pacific....


What makes you think they would refuse a free upgrade to their track? With the right amount of money any railroad will say yes.


How about disruption to business operations before, during, and after construction? In the short term, it solves some problems, but in the long term it doesn't really solve any problems.

Perfect Business Case: Acela

Acela's speed is limited by traffic and infrastructure on the route's northern half because it shares infrastructure with freight traffic.
 
af773atmsp
Posts: 2345
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:37 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:42 pm

Bradin wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Bradin wrote:

Except the rail is owned by Union Pacific....


What makes you think they would refuse a free upgrade to their track? With the right amount of money any railroad will say yes.


How about disruption to business operations before, during, and after construction? In the short term, it solves some problems, but in the long term it doesn't really solve any problems.

Perfect Business Case: Acela

Acela's speed is limited by traffic and infrastructure on the route's northern half because it shares infrastructure with freight traffic.


If California is too incompetent to build true HSR then they're going to have to settle for something like Acela, which again, would be a huge improvement over the status quo of one daily roundtrip that takes 12 hours and doesn't even directly serve San Francisco.
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72,736,788
SY,DL,FI,FL,BA,EI,NW,MG,DY,EZY,F9,WN,SN,ET,SK
Too many airports to fit in signature.
 
Bradin
Posts: 228
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:19 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Bradin wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

What makes you think they would refuse a free upgrade to their track? With the right amount of money any railroad will say yes.


How about disruption to business operations before, during, and after construction? In the short term, it solves some problems, but in the long term it doesn't really solve any problems.

Perfect Business Case: Acela

Acela's speed is limited by traffic and infrastructure on the route's northern half because it shares infrastructure with freight traffic.


If California is too incompetent to build true HSR then they're going to have to settle for something like Acela, which again, would be a huge improvement over the status quo of one daily roundtrip that takes 12 hours and doesn't even directly serve San Francisco.


It would still be a waste of tax payer dollars.
 
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DL717
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Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:29 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Bradin wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:

What makes you think they would refuse a free upgrade to their track? With the right amount of money any railroad will say yes.


How about disruption to business operations before, during, and after construction? In the short term, it solves some problems, but in the long term it doesn't really solve any problems.

Perfect Business Case: Acela

Acela's speed is limited by traffic and infrastructure on the route's northern half because it shares infrastructure with freight traffic.


If California is too incompetent to build true HSR then they're going to have to settle for something like Acela, which again, would be a huge improvement over the status quo of one daily roundtrip that takes 12 hours and doesn't even directly serve San Francisco.


A tilt train with better speed would be sufficient on the short hops people already use rail for. Improve service you have, make some money and use that money to upgrade incrementally to high speed. There also needs to be minimal stop trains between larger cities with feeder trains to the smaller destinations. Treat it like a hub and spoke. Taking 3 hours to go 100 miles on a train is just stupid.
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