travelhound
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Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:26 am

As per the Blueswan Daily website Boeing is looking to introduce a higher gross weight variant of the 787-9 by 2022.

"While its current 787-9 fleet is not able to make New York or Sao Paulo, Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones. The higher MTOW variant should be available by 2022 and improve the feasibility of New York-Auckland and Sao Paulo-Auckland"

This is the first time I've heard of an increase to the 787's MTOW.

https://blueswandaily.com/air-new-zeala ... -sensible/

It would be interested to hear if any other additional improvements will be introduced with the increase in MTOW.
Last edited by qf789 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: changed to rumour, unconfirmed at this stage
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:31 am

travelhound wrote:
.......Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.......


Ummm... they mean 1%??
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:32 am

Can they apply this to the -10 too?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
brightcedars
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:32 am

travelhound wrote:
increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.

You mean 1%, right?
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:32 am

sadiqutp wrote:
travelhound wrote:
.......Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.......


Ummm... they mean 1%??


Or do they mean 25t?
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:34 am

I know QF have managed to make the current spec 789 work on their Perth to London flights, but I wonder if they'll be interested in this increase to make margins a bit more comfortable. Especially if it's just paperwork changes to increase MTOW.
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:41 am

Pudelhund wrote:
sadiqutp wrote:
travelhound wrote:
.......Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.......


Ummm... they mean 1%??


Or do they mean 25t?

That would kill all other WBs .. I don't think it's technically possible
 
sabby
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:02 am

travelhound wrote:
"While its current 787-9 fleet is not able to make New York or Sao Paulo, Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.


Wait what ? Even the 787-10 can do that with max payload. An increase of 2.5T would solve the blocked seats problems on the longest routes and/or add a couple more tons of cargo.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:18 am

sabby wrote:
travelhound wrote:
"While its current 787-9 fleet is not able to make New York or Sao Paulo, Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.


Wait what ? Even the 787-10 can do that with max payload.

They're talking about AKL-NYC, AKL-GRU, neither of which the 78X can realistically do.

789 should be able to comfortably do AKL-GRU, but there may be additional operational specs/routings that make it difficult for NZ specifically.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Swadian
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:20 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Can they apply this to the -10 too?


Certainly could be. 78X MTOW is the same as 789 right now, so I don't see how the smaller variant would have a higher MTOW if it were to get this increase. How much extra range would it do? Can 78X do 6500nm reliably without blocking seats now?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:34 am

Swadian wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Can they apply this to the -10 too?


Certainly could be. 78X MTOW is the same as 789 right now, so I don't see how the smaller variant would have a higher MTOW if it were to get this increase. How much extra range would it do? Can 78X do 6500nm reliably without blocking seats now?

Actually it is easier for the smaller variant to get a MTOW increase.

The wing and wingbox had to be strengthened for the 787-10. The heavier fuselage increases the wing root bending moment at any given flying weight. You have more fuselage drag and more thrust with the associated loads. The stronger wing of the 787-10 has now become standard on the 787-9 so this is most likely where the extra headroom has come from.

A 2.5T increase in MTOW will narrow the advantage the A350 has when it comes to ultra long haul.

The 787-9 was taken off LAX-SIN but could manage SFO-SIN. That 2.5T would be the extra fuel needed to make LAX work again.

Qantas could in theory add an extra 2.5T of payload but I am not sure if their 787-9's have the 787-10 wing.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:48 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Swadian wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Can they apply this to the -10 too?


Certainly could be. 78X MTOW is the same as 789 right now, so I don't see how the smaller variant would have a higher MTOW if it were to get this increase. How much extra range would it do? Can 78X do 6500nm reliably without blocking seats now?

Actually it is easier for the smaller variant to get a MTOW increase.

The wing and wingbox had to be strengthened for the 787-10. The heavier fuselage increases the wing root bending moment at any given flying weight. You have more fuselage drag and more thrust with the associated loads. The stronger wing of the 787-10 has now become standard on the 787-9 so this is most likely where the extra headroom has come from.

A 2.5T increase in MTOW will narrow the advantage the A350 has when it comes to ultra long haul.

The 787-9 was taken off LAX-SIN but could manage SFO-SIN. That 2.5T would be the extra fuel needed to make LAX work again.

Qantas could in theory add an extra 2.5T of payload but I am not sure if their 787-9's have the 787-10 wing.

Could be from adopting the 78x wing but I wouldn’t expect that to be the limiting path for MTOW. I would guess they have either found the ‘bottleneck’ in the load paths or have been able to unlock safety margins through increased analysis.

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any insight in to how often the 787 is being limited by its MTOW? Us armchair experts are always looking for a little bit more to be able to fly our ugly baby routes but are the dispatchers/airlines asking this question a lot?

Fred


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pabloeing
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:49 am

B787-9 is the logical choice in NZ for B772 replacement.......¿The B778 can do AKL-LHR?
 
sabby
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:33 am

LAX772LR wrote:
sabby wrote:
travelhound wrote:
"While its current 787-9 fleet is not able to make New York or Sao Paulo, Boeing is working on increasing the 787-9s maximum takeoff weight by around 10% or 2.5 tones.


Wait what ? Even the 787-10 can do that with max payload.

They're talking about AKL-NYC, AKL-GRU, neither of which the 78X can realistically do.

789 should be able to comfortably do AKL-GRU, but there may be additional operational specs/routings that make it difficult for NZ specifically.


Ahh, Thanks. I think the regulatory authorities do not allow the Aus/NZ airlines to use twins to South American destinations due to lack of diversion airports. Latam operate similar routes (SCL-MEL) though. AKL-NYC would be possible with some blocked seats I guess, an MTOW increase of 2.5T would certainly help.
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:01 am

sabby wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
sabby wrote:

Wait what ? Even the 787-10 can do that with max payload.

They're talking about AKL-NYC, AKL-GRU, neither of which the 78X can realistically do.

789 should be able to comfortably do AKL-GRU, but there may be additional operational specs/routings that make it difficult for NZ specifically.


Ahh, Thanks. I think the regulatory authorities do not allow the Aus/NZ airlines to use twins to South American destinations due to lack of diversion airports. Latam operate similar routes (SCL-MEL) though. AKL-NYC would be possible with some blocked seats I guess, an MTOW increase of 2.5T would certainly help.


Before the 787 RR engine issues NZ used the 789 on AKL-EZE, by the end of next year QF will be operating the 789 on SYD-SCL and SYD-JNB. I think this MTOW increase will help Boeing win the 772 replacement order for NZ, Up to recently Airbus had been in the front seat but there was some chatter on the NZ thread late last year that NZ and Boeing were talking about an increase of the MTOW for the 787. As already highlighted this may help UA as well bring back LAX-SIN and it would also benefit QF as well. Currently PER-LHR recently has been blocking 10-30 seats per flight due to the Northern hemisphere winter, it would also be beneficial for QF for new routes for the 789 such as MEL-DFW, maybe even SYD-ORD
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SpoonNZ
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:03 am

sabby wrote:
Ahh, Thanks. I think the regulatory authorities do not allow the Aus/NZ airlines to use twins to South American destinations due to lack of diversion airports. Latam operate similar routes (SCL-MEL) though. AKL-NYC would be possible with some blocked seats I guess, an MTOW increase of 2.5T would certainly help.

NZ fly AKL-EZE with 789, previously 77E. LA fly SCL-AKL with 789.

No issues with twins (thanks ETOPS), just not many alternates on the way.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:21 am

Air NZ is a very leisure driven airline. Their planes carry a lot of people and need to be full of them and freight to make money. Can Boeing make the 789 work for NZ on AKL-EWR/GRU/YVR return? I’d not have thought so previously. Interesting to see what kind of a load the A359 can haul over these routes as a comparison ie which can make the most money for the airline.

And then there’s the 77W replacement to consider beyond that of the 77E.
Last edited by Motorhussy on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:27 am

SpoonNZ wrote:
sabby wrote:
Ahh, Thanks. I think the regulatory authorities do not allow the Aus/NZ airlines to use twins to South American destinations due to lack of diversion airports. Latam operate similar routes (SCL-MEL) though. AKL-NYC would be possible with some blocked seats I guess, an MTOW increase of 2.5T would certainly help.

NZ fly AKL-EZE with 789, previously 77E. LA fly SCL-AKL with 789.

No issues with twins (thanks ETOPS), just not many alternates on the way.


EZE has been back to a 772 since late 2017 when the latest issues started.
 
B764er
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:47 am

That's around 750 gallons more. Wonder how much further it will go on that.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:47 pm

B764er wrote:
That's around 750 gallons more. Wonder how much further it will go on that.


200-300Nm. Not a tremendous change, but still adds a bit of range, and some extra flight time. Mind you, at extreme ranges, almost half of the extra 2.5 tons will be burned just to carry the added weight...
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:52 pm

For a route like AKL-NYC every bit of extra headroom on MTOW will help. But it still won't turn it into a payload/range monster like the A359. We were discussing this on the NZ thread earlier:

tealnz wrote:
Just to underline what the 787 is up against if it's back in the mix for the 77E replacement, some new numbers from the 787 vs 359 range thread on tech/ops:

Eyad89 wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Some new figures for consideration from a 280t a359 with the latest performance improvements- 11.5hr trip, 71t fuel burn, 60t payload and 272 tow.

So that was flying at its MZFW? Since it still had 8 tons before it hit MTOW, it would be able to fly for 13hr carrying 60t of payload. Not bad.

If the numbers are right that implies a 280t A359 could do LAX-AKL with 60t payload. Or close to 50t for IAH-AKL.

We don't know what sort of tweak Boeing might be able to come up with to get the 789 into the competition. But it's hard to see it coming anywhere near this performance at least until a re-engined version is available in the latter mid-2020s.


The Blue Swan piece seems to provide the missing info on what Luxon was referring to when he said Boeing were looking for some extra range for the 789.

Question now is more about strategy than technical performance. If a 256t 789 with 250 seats can do NYC-AKL with a viable payload (and pick up IAH as well as ORD) then plainly it will be a cheaper option in the short term. In that scenario the 77Ws would have to handle the serious end of freight traffic out of LAX.

The 787s don't provide a solution longer term unless NZ feel they can count on a neo version in the second half of the 2020s. Even then they will lack the payload/range that a 359/35K combo can offer. The underlying issue is the business model: is NZ able to remain viable if it shifts to high-premium low-density low-cargo model like QF for North America? That answer would need to be affirmative for NZ to go down this track.

Equally plausible is that NZ are working to get Airbus to sharpen their pencil on A359/35K pricing – and using the increased weight 787 option for that purpose. The success of QF's PER-LHR route will help them. 77X is presumably now out of it.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:54 pm

Seems a little ridiculous to me. The 787 can already do 98-99% of all the routes in the world, why focus on the 1%? A distraction for Boeing imho.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:55 pm

Is the 789’s range fuel volume or weight (MTOW) limited?

I see this more for boosting the 787’s payload at higher ranges than boosting range (which the 787 really doesn’t need, market for higher than current is niche)
 
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:58 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Swadian wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Can they apply this to the -10 too?


Certainly could be. 78X MTOW is the same as 789 right now, so I don't see how the smaller variant would have a higher MTOW if it were to get this increase. How much extra range would it do? Can 78X do 6500nm reliably without blocking seats now?

Actually it is easier for the smaller variant to get a MTOW increase.

The wing and wingbox had to be strengthened for the 787-10. The heavier fuselage increases the wing root bending moment at any given flying weight. You have more fuselage drag and more thrust with the associated loads. The stronger wing of the 787-10 has now become standard on the 787-9 so this is most likely where the extra headroom has come from.

A 2.5T increase in MTOW will narrow the advantage the A350 has when it comes to ultra long haul.

The 787-9 was taken off LAX-SIN but could manage SFO-SIN. That 2.5T would be the extra fuel needed to make LAX work again.

Qantas could in theory add an extra 2.5T of payload but I am not sure if their 787-9's have the 787-10 wing.


So this increase would only apply to the builds of the 787-9 with the strengthened wing root? How many of those have been produced and who has them?
 
WIederling
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:05 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Seems a little ridiculous to me. The 787 can already do 98-99% of all the routes in the world, why focus on the 1%? A distraction for Boeing imho.

Apparently the 1..2% remaining are a significant part of the market. ;-)
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WIederling
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:09 pm

Polot wrote:
Is the 789’s range fuel volume or weight (MTOW) limited?

I see this more for boosting the 787’s payload at higher ranges than boosting range (which the 787 really doesn’t need, market for higher than current is niche)


788: Fuel limited after you have shed 35t of payload.
789: Fuel limited after you have shed 30t of payload.
Murphy is an optimist
 
B1168
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 pm

It serms a bit surprising. Airbus does a LOT of weight-variations in the course of producing A350s, and...the weight usually varies more than 2.5t.
But well, that smells like targeting Australian/Asian carriers who demand maximum range to cross the large pond.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 pm

sabby wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
sabby wrote:

Wait what ? Even the 787-10 can do that with max payload.

They're talking about AKL-NYC, AKL-GRU, neither of which the 78X can realistically do.

789 should be able to comfortably do AKL-GRU, but there may be additional operational specs/routings that make it difficult for NZ specifically.


Ahh, Thanks. I think the regulatory authorities do not allow the Aus/NZ airlines to use twins to South American destinations due to lack of diversion airports. Latam operate similar routes (SCL-MEL) though. AKL-NYC would be possible with some blocked seats I guess, an MTOW increase of 2.5T would certainly help.


As pointed out above, NZ flies to EZE. The problem is 2-fold:
1 - They can't fly the shortest route. Notice the slightly more northern path
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ANZ ... /NZAA/SAEZ
2 - NZ has a relatively dense configuration which affects range.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 pm

Does this update put ORD/JFK/LHR within range of SYD for the 789? Or is it still too far?
Last edited by ILS28ORD on Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WIederling
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:47 pm

B1168 wrote:
It serms a bit surprising. Airbus does a LOT of weight-variations in the course of producing A350s, and...the weight usually varies more than 2.5t.
But well, that smells like targeting Australian/Asian carriers who demand maximum range to cross the large pond.


you are mixing design MTOW and paper MTOW. I suppose you can also get any Boeing plane in various paper derates.
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:53 pm

I think NZ is getting ready for a combo order: (additional, MTOW bumped) B789 and B77X of some variation.
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Mrakula
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:17 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
I think NZ is getting ready for a combo order: (additional, MTOW bumped) B789 and B77X of some variation.


NZ need more MTOW for 789 to avoid A350/77X :-)
 
sciing
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:50 pm

Polot wrote:
Is the 789’s range fuel volume or weight (MTOW) limited?

I see this more for boosting the 787’s payload at higher ranges than boosting range (which the 787 really doesn’t need, market for higher than current is niche)

A frame is usually fuel limited, so with max fuel you still have more than 0 payload.
The question is at which payload point the fuel limit starts (2nd kink in payload chart).
If it is at high payload MTOW increase makes less sense.
If you are at low payload fuel volume increase makes no sense.
 
nz2
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:08 pm

I was onboard the NZ 789 for the types second day of operating - when we arrived at SYD it was at a gate on the other side of the terminal than usual, I think done purposely as we had to remain seated as ground staff marked out the positioning lines in order for the then brand new 789 type to align with the jetway correctly
 
EBT
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:25 am

I fell it's important to point out that for Air NZ, this decision is probably more focused on where they see their market opportunities in the future than it is around the aircraft that will get them there. As their CFO Jeff McDowall said last year, the 777X/789/78X combo could open up new longhaul opportunities, potentially lower fixed costs and some ability to upgauge certain routes at relatively low risk. But the A350 also offers its advantages, and let's not forget that at the end of the day, it will come down to the deal offered by both OEMs.

IMHO, with the pain in the side that the Trent 1000 engines have been. NZ seems to be a big fan of the 787s, and I got the sense that when they entered service, they seemed to usurp the 777-200ER's place in the fleet. For them to add more, and consider the -10 and 777-X would be a low-risk option that would give them a pathway to later replace the -300ERs. It would fit nicely with the Pacific Rim strategy that Luxon has espoused. Is it a slam dunk? Of course not, but it is an easier case to make, and the case only gets stronger if Boeing can squeeze a little more performance out of the beast to open up more market opportunities.
 
moyangmm
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:39 am

I wonder if the new MTOW can be applied to 787-10 as well. With this increased MTOW 787-10 will dominate A350 both in terms of payload-range and fuel economy.
 
aerohottie
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:56 am

moyangmm wrote:
I wonder if the new MTOW can be applied to 787-10 as well. With this increased MTOW 787-10 will dominate A350 both in terms of payload-range and fuel economy.

It wont do either of those things, but nice try
What?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:06 am

aerohottie wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
I wonder if the new MTOW can be applied to 787-10 as well. With this increased MTOW 787-10 will dominate A350 both in terms of payload-range and fuel economy.

It wont do either of those things, but nice try

Indeed, no way in hell could 787-10 do things like HKG-EWR without major (i.e. some 20 ton instead of 2.5t) MTOW increase or forget about majority of your payload in that case. Even the UA IAD-PEK sub carries significantly lower load than what is optimised for -10. Better chance with -9 but apparently still not optimal as far as it goes currently.

Michael
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:31 am

eamondzhang wrote:
aerohottie wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
I wonder if the new MTOW can be applied to 787-10 as well. With this increased MTOW 787-10 will dominate A350 both in terms of payload-range and fuel economy.

It wont do either of those things, but nice try

Indeed, no way in hell could 787-10 do things like HKG-EWR without major (i.e. some 20 ton instead of 2.5t) MTOW increase or forget about majority of your payload in that case. Even the UA IAD-PEK sub carries significantly lower load than what is optimised for -10. Better chance with -9 but apparently still not optimal as far as it goes currently.

Michael


That’s because it subbed a 788 for the flight, so obviously it’s not going to take a full load when the aircraft wasn’t actually scheduled for that flight.

If I recall, someone on the IAD-PEK 78J flight forum posted that the aircraft landed with a couple of tons left in the tank and the aircraft wasn’t near MTOW. A lot of people agreed that the 78J was performing better than expected. If the 789 can do LAX/SFO-SIN and IAH-SYD, I’m pretty sure it can do HKG-EWR no problem.

What it sounds to me is that you’re an biased Airbus fanboy and ignore some of the facts that are provided on the forums.
 
moyangmm
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:01 am

The original 789 can do LAX-SIN with a few seats blocked, but not nearly as many as A359: SQ has to use ULR to do this route, which is equivalent to blocking 120+ seats (ULR only has 161 seats). Higher MTOW 787-9 can do LAX-SIN with full pax+ bags.
 
moyangmm
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:09 am

Airlines0613 wrote:

That’s because it subbed a 788 for the flight, so obviously it’s not going to take a full load when the aircraft wasn’t actually scheduled for that flight.

If I recall, someone on the IAD-PEK 78J flight forum posted that the aircraft landed with a couple of tons left in the tank and the aircraft wasn’t near MTOW. A lot of people agreed that the 78J was performing better than expected. If the 789 can do LAX/SFO-SIN and IAH-SYD, I’m pretty sure it can do HKG-EWR no problem.

What it sounds to me is that you’re an biased Airbus fanboy and ignore some of the facts that are provided on the forums.


Also people tend to ignore that A350-900 performs much worse in real world than its ACAP. There are data points of DL A359's real world performance on PEK-DTW suggesting that 275t A359's real world range is at best around 6000nm with full passenger + bags (~300) and no cargo. That is not even close to a B789 before the MTOW increase! A 2.5t MTOW increase on 789 will further widen that gap.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:20 am

moyangmm wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:

That’s because it subbed a 788 for the flight, so obviously it’s not going to take a full load when the aircraft wasn’t actually scheduled for that flight.

If I recall, someone on the IAD-PEK 78J flight forum posted that the aircraft landed with a couple of tons left in the tank and the aircraft wasn’t near MTOW. A lot of people agreed that the 78J was performing better than expected. If the 789 can do LAX/SFO-SIN and IAH-SYD, I’m pretty sure it can do HKG-EWR no problem.

What it sounds to me is that you’re an biased Airbus fanboy and ignore some of the facts that are provided on the forums.


Also people tend to ignore that A350-900 performs much worse in real world than its ACAP. There are data points of DL A359's real world performance on PEK-DTW suggesting that 275t A359's real world range is at best around 6000nm with full passenger + bags (~300) and no cargo. That is not even close to a B789 before the MTOW increase! A 2.5t MTOW increase on 789 will further widen that gap.

Airbus should probably go out of business, insane how they put out a bad aircraft :), sense the sarcasm. Explain how a PR A350-900 with JUST 3 TONS MORE MTOW is flying JFK-MNL, it seats 295pax. Only 11 less than DL. The 787 series on general is absolutely phenomenal, the long and thin routes it opens up are game changing, but it is not supposed to be a brute payload range beast like a 777X or even the 350’s. And Hong Kong Airlines have 330 seat A350s flying from LAX-HKG, are they blocking 70 seats just so it can fly 14 hours? No. Two exceptional aircraft with different mission requirements.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:37 am

SteelChair wrote:
Seems a little ridiculous to me. The 787 can already do 98-99% of all the routes in the world, why focus on the 1%? A distraction for Boeing imho.

.....the (rather obvious) answer being:
Because airlines supposedly are standing in front of them with a cheque, requesting it + it's within their feasibility to do so.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:45 am

moyangmm wrote:
The original 789 can do LAX-SIN with a few seats blocked, but not nearly as many as A359: SQ has to use ULR to do this route, which is equivalent to blocking 120+ seats (ULR only has 161 seats). Higher MTOW 787-9 can do LAX-SIN with full pax+ bags.

Neither of those are actually true.

Standard A359s have subbed on the LAX-SIN route for SQ, and have even taken on more pax.

And no, the 789 wasn't able to do the route with "full pax and bags" (you do realize that that's a relative term, do you not?) on a consistent basis; which is likely a contributory factor in them pulling it in favor of an additional SFO.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:50 am

LAX772LR wrote:
moyangmm wrote:
The original 789 can do LAX-SIN with a few seats blocked, but not nearly as many as A359: SQ has to use ULR to do this route, which is equivalent to blocking 120+ seats (ULR only has 161 seats). Higher MTOW 787-9 can do LAX-SIN with full pax+ bags.

Neither of those are actually true.

Standard A359s have subbed on the LAX-SIN route for SQ, and have even taken on more pax.

And no, the 789 wasn't able to do the route with "full pax and bags" (you do realize that that's a relative term, do you not?) on a consistent basis; which is likely a contributory factor in them pulling it in favor of an additional SFO.

He never stated it leaves fully loaded, he clearly stated with some seats blocked... What he did state is that the MTOW increase will allow for all pax and bags to be loaded on the flight.
 
JQ321
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 am

Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:54 am

qf789 wrote:
sabby wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
They're talking about AKL-NYC, AKL-GRU, neither of which the 78X can realistically do.

789 should be able to comfortably do AKL-GRU, but there may be additional operational specs/routings that make it difficult for NZ specifically.


Ahh, Thanks. I think the regulatory authorities do not allow the Aus/NZ airlines to use twins to South American destinations due to lack of diversion airports. Latam operate similar routes (SCL-MEL) though. AKL-NYC would be possible with some blocked seats I guess, an MTOW increase of 2.5T would certainly help.


Before the 787 RR engine issues NZ used the 789 on AKL-EZE, by the end of next year QF will be operating the 789 on SYD-SCL and SYD-JNB. I think this MTOW increase will help Boeing win the 772 replacement order for NZ, Up to recently Airbus had been in the front seat but there was some chatter on the NZ thread late last year that NZ and Boeing were talking about an increase of the MTOW for the 787. As already highlighted this may help UA as well bring back LAX-SIN and it would also benefit QF as well. Currently PER-LHR recently has been blocking 10-30 seats per flight due to the Northern hemisphere winter, it would also be beneficial for QF for new routes for the 789 such as MEL-DFW, maybe even SYD-ORD

QF have never stated that SCL nor JNB were going to 789 you have assumed.
 
sabby
Posts: 355
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:19 am

moyangmm wrote:

Also people tend to ignore that A350-900 performs much worse in real world than its ACAP. There are data points of DL A359's real world performance on PEK-DTW suggesting that 275t A359's real world range is at best around 6000nm with full passenger + bags (~300) and no cargo. That is not even close to a B789 before the MTOW increase! A 2.5t MTOW increase on 789 will further widen that gap.


Don't add that s, you bring one data point and choose to ignore many others when pointed out. Keep saying that a thousand more times, maybe that'll make it true :roll: Philippines Airlines must be flying empty aircraft on MNL-JFK or QR on DOH-ATL, or SQ on SIN-SFO or CX on HKG-IAD !!
Last edited by sabby on Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:

And no, the 789 wasn't able to do the route with "full pax and bags" (you do realize that that's a relative term, do you not?) on a consistent basis; which is likely a contributory factor in them pulling it in favor of an additional SFO.


I agree with you that LAX-SIN is at the edge of 789's performance, and yes UA sometimes need to block some seats in the winter westbound. Considering SFO-SIN is only a little bit shorter and UA can consistently operate SFO-SIN without problem even in the winter, I am sure a little MTOW bump would help a lot in the case of LAX-SIN for UA.
 
moyangmm
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:29 am

sabby wrote:

Don't add that s, you bring one data point and choose to ignore many others when pointed out. Keep saying that a thousand more times, maybe that'll make it true :roll: Philippines Airlines must be flying empty aircraft on MNL-JFK or QR on DOH-ATL, or SQ on SIN-SFO !!


You do realize that SQ regular A359 only has 253 seats right? That is to block 60 seats. It has even less seats than UA's 789, which is already considered as low-density. Yes I have taken the SQ datapoint into account. That flight flying SFO-SIN (7339nm) is at 276t MTOW but can only carry 253 pax + bags, no cargo. How is that not underwhelming, compared to its advertised range (315 pax, 8100nm)?

How many seats need to be blocked in order to fly MNL-JFK and DOH-ATL?
 
majano
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:40 am

moyangmm wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

And no, the 789 wasn't able to do the route with "full pax and bags" (you do realize that that's a relative term, do you not?) on a consistent basis; which is likely a contributory factor in them pulling it in favor of an additional SFO.


I agree with you that LAX-SIN is at the edge of 789's performance, and yes UA sometimes need to block some seats in the winter westbound. Considering SFO-SIN is only a little bit shorter and UA can consistently operate SFO-SIN without problem even in the winter, I am sure a little MTOW bump would help a lot in the case of LAX-SIN for UA.

You are taking this discussion way off-topic whilst there are numerous open threads discussing the subject. Can you point out where a reliable source stated that the 789 can fly SFO-SIN in the winter without blocking seats? I have followed this discussion very closely over the years, and I can assure you that your claims are baseless.

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