ltbewr
Posts: 14242
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:44 pm

airkas1 wrote:
“In a press conference the Ethiopian Airlines CEO stated that the pilot of #ET302 reported difficulties with the aircraft to ATC. He was given clearance to return to the airport.“

https://twitter.com/aviationsafety/stat ... 07104?s=21


Do we have comparable ATC records of the Lion Air crash or with other 737 MAX's in operation where had problems shortly after takeoff? That would be useful to investigators and our 'armchair' ones here.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 229
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:45 pm

The pilot had over 8000 hours and was with ET since 2010 according to the ET press conference.

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anshabhi
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:45 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Redd wrote:
Should more people potentially die before someone makes the decision?

.


Ok so I’ll play along. Ground the Max fleet immediately. Flights will be canceled. More people will end up driving. Driving is exponentially more dangerous than flying even the most unsafe airline in the world flying the most unsafe planes. Due to the grounding more lives are lost on the road than would have been in the air.

Boeing is irreparablely harmed. Production line is shut down. Workers laid off. Family’s loose a pay check. The US economy suffers. Trade deficit increases.

Most likely we find out this crash isn’t related.

-or- let’s ground Lion Air and Ethiopian Airways until the crash can be figured out. Makes more sense. They have crashed a whole lot of planes and killed a lot of people so until we know just ground them.

(I’m not for grounding anyone and would get on a max at any airline in the world at this very moment and not have even a twinge of a second thought.)

So much insensitivity and ignorance in one post.
Should we save Boeing and their billions of dollars of profits to keep a faulty plane design flying? (Until proved otherwise)
If there's a flaw in design which has led to perishing of 300 people, I think their billions of dollars that they have pocketed would be enough to compensate both the workers affected from closed assembly lines and families of the victims of these crashes. Yes they deserve it.

It's better if Airlines simply re-introduce the retired B737 NGs than your idea of making people drive 1000s of KMs.

Why exactly should Lion Air and ET be grounded for operating aircraft as new as 3 months old which get crashed? Statistically, from Lion Air crash we have the proof that Boeing and it's aircraft design is most likely to be at fault here.
 
factsonly
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:46 pm

Ethiopian Airlines is currently giving more details of the passengers who were on board ET 302 that crashed on Sunday shortly after taking off from Bole International Airpoirt in Addis Ababa.

The numbers we have so far are:

32 passengers were Kenyan
18 Canada
9 Ethiopian
8 Chinese
8 Italian
8 US
7 British
7 France
6 Egypt
5 Netherlands
4 UN passport
4 Indian
3 Russian
2 Moroccan
2 Israeli
1 Belgian
1 Ugandan
1 Yemeni
1 Sudanese
1 Togo
1 Mozambican
1 Norwegian
 
anshabhi
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:47 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
What if the plane was simply overloaded and overweight? What would that explain?

Boeing's systems inability to detect that.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 229
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:49 pm

https://www.eturbonews.com/246922/boein ... -in-danger


Boeing 737 Max not safe? 2 Crashes, 62 airlines in danger?



How safe is the brand new Boeing 737 Max 8? This a legitimate question to ask while search and rescue operations are in progress in Ethiopia after today’s Ethiopian Airlines crash



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anshabhi
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:49 pm

factsonly wrote:
Ethiopian Airlines is currently giving more details of the passengers who were on board ET 302 that crashed on Sunday shortly after taking off from Bole International Airpoirt in Addis Ababa.

The numbers we have so far are:

32 passengers were Kenyan
18 Canada
9 Ethiopian
8 Chinese
8 Italian
8 US
7 British
7 France
6 Egypt
5 Netherlands
4 UN passport
4 Indian
3 Russian
2 Moroccan
2 Israeli
1 Belgian
1 Ugandan
1 Yemeni
1 Sudanese
1 Togo
1 Mozambican
1 Norwegian

Was it carrying a UN delegation or something? .... I guess 8/9 Ethiopians would be crew only
Last edited by anshabhi on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8909
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:51 pm

U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to avoid Meskel Square and limit movement around Addis Ababa on Sunday, March 10. U.S. Government travelers have been advised not to arrive or depart Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10, and U.S. Embassy personnel are also temporarily prohibited from traveling to Oromia."

It also says not to use Bole international Airport on that date. This is not just related to Meskel Square.
 
ktof
Posts: 41
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:52 pm

anshabhi wrote:
factsonly wrote:
Ethiopian Airlines is currently giving more details of the passengers who were on board ET 302 that crashed on Sunday shortly after taking off from Bole International Airpoirt in Addis Ababa.

The numbers we have so far are:

32 passengers were Kenyan
18 Canada
9 Ethiopian
8 Chinese
8 Italian
8 US
7 British
7 France
6 Egypt
5 Netherlands
4 UN passport
4 Indian
3 Russian
2 Moroccan
2 Israeli
1 Belgian
1 Ugandan
1 Yemeni
1 Sudanese
1 Togo
1 Mozambican
1 Norwegian

Was it carrying a UN delegation or something? This is not what you see in a typical domestic flight .... I guess 8/9 Ethiopians would be crew only



Ethiopian have a huge connecting network from Europe etc to Africa.

They recently opened a route from MAN - ADD and they are without a doubt the cheapest and most direct route into East Africa for sure.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:53 pm

soectre99 wrote:
It is literally far safer to fly on a Max (taking into account these 2 incidents) than sitting in a car on the way to an airport.

Unless you have statistics to prove this claim I wouldn't be so sure.

I remember a story of a German glider pilot. Instructors always told him how safe his sport was. How he had a bigger chance to die in traffic on the way to the airport than in his aircraft. In the end he lost around thirty fellow aviatiors crashing their glider planes. On the other hand no one he knew died in traffic.
 
awthompson
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:54 pm

Some posters are very severe on others. This forum is generally open to the public once they have signed in so are free to make their comments, however uninformed they may be.
Please kindly assist uninformed posters, steering them in the right direction so they can learn, avoiding the nastiness. Most posters here are not professionals but were interested enough to sign in and make a post.
Many are talking about grounding and it is easy to see where they are coming from. If early investigation points towards an aircraft fault, and if it turns out to be in any way related to JT610, then grounding is indeed a distinct possibility. Non professional posters smooth over the 'goings on' at industry level and jump ahead, which is fair enough. They could turn out to be right in the end.
 
ihmcallister
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:55 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
all 737MAX Aircraft should be grounded till the cause is determined

....jump the gun much?


I don't think a grounding would jump the gun. Even at a casual first glance, this accident is too similar to the Lion Air crash for it to be discounted. Altitude fluctuations and a clearly catastrophic loss of control minutes after take off. Unless this is a bombing, the FAA will almost be forced to suspend the type certificate pending investigation into the flight system.
 
Miquel787
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
This is the silliest thread I have seen in a long time.

You have an aircraft take off, climb apparently-slowly, go into mountainous terrain, be at an altitude reported to be thisclose to the terrain height, and crash. Members use FR24 as some sort of authoritative source where provider itself admits it's missing several important minutes of the flight, and all they can come up with is MCAS (which likely would have been inhibited here), and pronounce the MAX "unsafe"?

How about engine failure?

Four pages and nobody mentions engine failure as a possible reason the thing had problems climbing?

Ethiopian is one of the very-best carriers in Africa, but they aren't Delta Air Lines. And even if they were, even seemingly-talented, trained crews make mistakes. Look at the United 747 incident in San Francisco in 1998 which could just as easily have turned into one of the worst accidents ever for an American flag carrier. Remember that one? Engine problems at takeoff shake the airframe so hard that the crew is actually concerned about structural integrity. The crew shuts the engine down. FO flies the flight director rather than the engine-out protocol. Fails to put in proper rudder, so aircraft is so severely out-of-trim that it's barely-climbing on the three remaining engines. And it's headed for San Bruno mountain, with antennas on it. The bunkies are screaming at the FO, and the captain does not initially take control. Finally, as they are really going to hit the mountain, the captain takes control, makes the right control inputs, and the aircraft starts climbing and clears the obstructions by about the height of my girlfriend.

So: unusual mechanical issue, unexpectedly-incompetent response by PF, arguably-mediocre CRM, numerous other mistakes, and what should have been a story of a disconcertingly-violent engine issue** became a story of one of the worst US near-accidents in decades.

And we haven't even begun to analyze the effect of winds over mountains, even for a transport-category aircraft like the 737.

So I think we should turn away from just assuming that the MAX is unsafe because of MCAS or some other secret problem with the design, and instead consider more-typical potential causes.

**(a person in the know at UA at the time made the comment that the crew was seriously concerned by the violence of the engine compressor stalls to the point that they were concerned about the structural integrity of the aircraft, something they had never experienced in their careers).

I absolutely agree with your fine and plausible comment..Makes a lot of sense.4 pages of speculation..That.s the easy way.Let.s wait and see what the results of the investigations will bring based on facts.Not made by guessing and crazy assumptions.
 
Miquel787
Posts: 79
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
This is the silliest thread I have seen in a long time.

You have an aircraft take off, climb apparently-slowly, go into mountainous terrain, be at an altitude reported to be thisclose to the terrain height, and crash. Members use FR24 as some sort of authoritative source where provider itself admits it's missing several important minutes of the flight, and all they can come up with is MCAS (which likely would have been inhibited here), and pronounce the MAX "unsafe"?

How about engine failure?

Four pages and nobody mentions engine failure as a possible reason the thing had problems climbing?

Ethiopian is one of the very-best carriers in Africa, but they aren't Delta Air Lines. And even if they were, even seemingly-talented, trained crews make mistakes. Look at the United 747 incident in San Francisco in 1998 which could just as easily have turned into one of the worst accidents ever for an American flag carrier. Remember that one? Engine problems at takeoff shake the airframe so hard that the crew is actually concerned about structural integrity. The crew shuts the engine down. FO flies the flight director rather than the engine-out protocol. Fails to put in proper rudder, so aircraft is so severely out-of-trim that it's barely-climbing on the three remaining engines. And it's headed for San Bruno mountain, with antennas on it. The bunkies are screaming at the FO, and the captain does not initially take control. Finally, as they are really going to hit the mountain, the captain takes control, makes the right control inputs, and the aircraft starts climbing and clears the obstructions by about the height of my girlfriend.

So: unusual mechanical issue, unexpectedly-incompetent response by PF, arguably-mediocre CRM, numerous other mistakes, and what should have been a story of a disconcertingly-violent engine issue** became a story of one of the worst US near-accidents in decades.

And we haven't even begun to analyze the effect of winds over mountains, even for a transport-category aircraft like the 737.

So I think we should turn away from just assuming that the MAX is unsafe because of MCAS or some other secret problem with the design, and instead consider more-typical potential causes.

**(a person in the know at UA at the time made the comment that the crew was seriously concerned by the violence of the engine compressor stalls to the point that they were concerned about the structural integrity of the aircraft, something they had never experienced in their careers).

I absolutely agree with your fine and plausible comment..Makes a lot of sense.4 pages of speculation..That.s the easy way.Let.s wait and see what the results of the investigations will bring based on facts.Not made by guessing and crazy assumptions.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1718
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:59 pm

If I get this right, the MAX now has the highest number of total losses in the first 2 years after EIS since the 727. This is remarkable in 2019.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
trnswrld
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:59 pm

BobMUC wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
dmsolovyev wrote:
The photo above looks a bit strange to me. Just few hours after the crash it should be damn hot to stand there. Also I don’t see any fire or smoke.


And no safety/emergency personnel. Just a guy in a suit pulling out a piece of debris


There are other photos:

Image
https://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/d ... 0.bild.jpg


My gosh, the airplane is literally almost 100% disintegrated. Just gone!
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:00 pm

Can someone explain to me what the potential flaw is? Is the plane unstable and software corrects the instability? Thank you.
 
marcelh
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:01 pm

According to Kenian authorities 5 passengers were from the Netherlands.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:01 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
all 737MAX Aircraft should be grounded till the cause is determined

....jump the gun much?


Similar to humans being declared accused after a crime is committed.
Guilty would mean scrapping of the entire B737Max program or atleast grounding untill it's recertified with all the necessary changes in design.

Grounding just fits for accused status that Boeing currently is in.
Last edited by anshabhi on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PW100
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:02 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
Again just ground Ethiopian and Lion Air. Looking at crash percentages that’s a better argument than grounding the Max. (Sarcasm). But that’s essentially the argument pro grounding folks are making. Why don’t they make the argument to ground the airlines..


Perhaps because the common denominator of these crashes, is not the airline, not the crash area (Asia, Africa), but rather the [exact] airplane type . . . ?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
bob75013
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:02 pm

JQ321 wrote:
. IF there is a design flaw they need to be grounded for the safety of the flying public. SAFETY ABOVE ALL ELSE.


Perhaps IF YOU COULD TELL US THE DESIGN FLAW that might happen.
 
Seanster59
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:04 pm

Coverage from DW news https://youtu.be/6ABBRfk_Geo
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:04 pm

This is obviously a very sad accident, a lot of people lost their lives.

This thread has provided a lot of useful information, including partial data points from FR24 and an explanation of their confusing altitude algorithms. Still, we have very little other information to go on. I suspect we'll soon hear more about the communications with the ATC, any additional flight path information that we might have from official radars, and so on.

At this point there are many potential reasons for this accident from control system malfunction to human error to weight/balance issues and to engine trouble, and some combined reasons are possible too (e.g., malfunction followed by distraction). What seems to be central at this point is that the aircraft didn't climb much, its altitude was erratic, then it impacted terrain. Visibility seemed fine, communications reportedly worked, some engine power seemed available given the so far reported speeds.

Control systems and/or crew issues might be the best guess at this early point.

(However, I'd defer the grounding discussion for later or to another thread. It is disturbing the discussion about this accident. If in the coming weeks it becomes apparent that AoA/stick shaker/MCAS were causing trouble, I'd say Boeing will have further evidence that something needs to be done with their plane, but for now, lets try to figure out what happened.)
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:07 pm

LY777 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Usually when I book a flight I try to book one with an aircraft I’ve never been on, or a new type. With the 737MAX, I had some doubts after JT610. Now, with another MAX crash, I will avoid this type until everything is known about the causes, and a fix should be in place on all aircraft if this was another MACS or some any software related issue. I know some people will criticise me, but since 2 decades or so new aircraft have been proven much safer than their predecessors. With the MAX I feel the opposite is the case. The MAX must have one of the worst safety records of any modern plane, 2 fatal crashes within a year or so after EIS?


As much as I love the 737, I agree with you.
I also avoid the A320neo until the engine issues are over for good.



as far as I know, the Airbus 320neo has not had any crashes, just engine issues that has been managable. No reason not to fly on the A320neo.
 
Menelaos
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:08 pm

Hi everyone from DXB. I've been following the forum for long, but just joined now.

Just to add my 0.02, I believe there is merit to the consideration by the people who have more access than us to the early investigation data for grounding the fleet.

What we do know at the moment is that we have two brand new aircraft of the exact same model, which have crashed under potentially very similar circumstances, mid-flight, and in clear weather (to be confirmed). Contrary to what some claim, both airlines have had a very reasonable safety record in the last many years.
Statistically, this does matter. It might be proven that one or both of these events were completely unrelated to the aircraft itself.
However, at least all of us on this forum are aware of the rarity of an air crash, especially one occurring in mid-flight, and this makes the similarities statistically important.

Thus, if early investigation data indeed points to similarities it would be more than reasonable to ground the fleet until the investigation yields more insights.

I think it's quite obvious that aircraft are not innocent until proven guilty. If there is data that points to the two accidents being potentially related the fleet could be grounded until the connection is disproven, or until the investigations clear the aircraft of any blame.

Even from a pure business case perspective, no airline (or Boeing for that matter) wants their safety record tainted - even more so if the public can say "you knew there was an issue and you kept flying".

Best,
Menelaos
 
nachopants
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:09 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
Can someone explain to me what the potential flaw is? Is the plane unstable and software corrects the instability? Thank you.


My understanding is, with MCAS, if the plane thinks it's going to stall, it will "force" the nose down until the pilot's manually disable MCAS.

The issue, though, is in the Lion Air accident ONLY, not necessarily this one by any means, the MCAS inputs were actually being fed erroneous data. Hence, the nose was forced down, but the aircraft itself was climbing steadily.

In that accident the pilots hadn't been trained on how to manually disable MCAS. Since that disaster, you would assume all pilots are now aware of the flaw. Hence, while people are quick to blame the similar coincidence, it's not necessarily a given.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:13 pm

Folks the aircraft was operating in mountanous terrain. Any engine malfunction etc. puts the aircraft and crew in a precarious position. Flight data showed that the aircraft leveled off at 8,150 ft. Field elevation in the area of the accident is 8,130 feet leaving very little margin.
Last edited by freakyrat on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Redd
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:13 pm

anshabhi wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
.


Ok so I’ll play along. Ground the Max fleet immediately. Flights will be canceled. More people will end up driving. Driving is exponentially more dangerous than flying even the most unsafe airline in the world flying the most unsafe planes. Due to the grounding more lives are lost on the road than would have been in the air.

Boeing is irreparablely harmed. Production line is shut down. Workers laid off. Family’s loose a pay check. The US economy suffers. Trade deficit increases.

Most likely we find out this crash isn’t related.

-or- let’s ground Lion Air and Ethiopian Airways until the crash can be figured out. Makes more sense. They have crashed a whole lot of planes and killed a lot of people so until we know just ground them.

(I’m not for grounding anyone and would get on a max at any airline in the world at this very moment and not have even a twinge of a second thought.)

So much insensitivity and ignorance in one post.


:checkmark:

I think I'd rather inconvenience a manufacturer, than risk more people's lives. 2 Crashes, 2 months, 2 similar stages of flight, 2 of the same aircraft. When is the last time this has happened?
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:14 pm

So a few options:

* MCAS
* Engine issue
* Pilot error
* Weather
* Hijacking / Terrorism
 
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MrBren
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Time to ground all 737MAX, too many casualties.
 
osiris30
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:17 pm

dopplerd wrote:
Based on the fr24 raw data this does NOT appear to be MCAS related, unless there is another unreported MCAS mode that is different than what Boeing has stated post Lion Air crash. MCAS is not operating if flaps are down. The climb on this aircraft was only a few hundred feet AGL when the first descent occurs. In this part of the flight there should be flaps down, MCAS off, and a healthy rate of climb.

I suppose it is possible they took off with flaps up and had MCAS engage at 200 feet AGL but that would be very much in the pilot error bucket not airplane design flaw.


I am quoting this because more people need to see this comment.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
AeroplaneFreak
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:18 pm

MrBren wrote:
Time to ground all 737MAX, too many casualties.


No one knows what caused this incident, it is mind boggling that people are calling to ground the entire fleet with absolutely ZERO evidence that it was caused by a design flaw.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:18 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

That would actually be the main reason for a grounding.


So by that reasoning, every aircraft type that has an accident should be automatically grounded until the cause of the accident has been determined. There is logic hiding there somewhere.

Don't bet on it. The ready, fire, aim school of analysis is hard at work.
Last edited by Bricktop on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
aircatalonia
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:18 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
. What seems to be central at this point is that the aircraft didn't climb much, its altitude was erratic, then it impacted terrain.


The crash site is around 60km (37 miles) south-east of the Ethiopian capital. How do you know it didnt climb much?
 
StTim
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:20 pm

I am flumoxed at all those calling for a grounding.
To date there is nothing to say there is any common cause between the two crashes. Probability leads to some very peculiar outcomes. The fact we have two crashes so soon of a new type could be just the stars in a wrong alignment. We won't know until the investigation is much further along.
As this incident is on land hopefully we should have the black boxes soon.
 
MikeAlpha95
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:20 pm

MrBren wrote:
Time to ground all 737MAX, too many casualties.


No reason for a grounding and an overreaction. Come down folks. Wait for the data from the BB and stop guessing...

And please stop saying that the 737Max is unsafe in general. We don't now one single fact about the crash... people are so sensationalistic, unbelievable.
Last edited by MikeAlpha95 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:21 pm

Mortyman wrote:
So a few options:

* MCAS
* Engine issue
* Pilot error
* Weather
* Hijacking / Terrorism


Oh, just a few options....k thanks.
 
KCaviator
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:21 pm

Has there been another type of aircraft that has killed this many people so shortly after entry into service?
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:21 pm

aircatalonia wrote:
The crash site is around 60km (37 miles) south-east of the Ethiopian capital. How do you know it didnt climb much?


I don't, actually. We do know, however, that for the part of the flight that was in the FR24 data logs, it did not gain much altitude. Assuming of course you trust the logs.

But it also seems possible/probable that there was no FR24 connectivity for some time, so there's probably a last part of the flight that's missing.
Last edited by AirlineCritic on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:22 pm

In all likelihood this has nothing to do specifically with the Max.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:23 pm

While the plane definitely might have major flaw when taking off ...... maybe it also has to do with pilot training. Are they missing something training wise went the speed indicators are giving them issues?

Does southwest, united, AA, and other major airlines train their pilots differently or prepare them for a air speed issue when taking off?
 
osiris30
Posts: 2655
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:23 pm

ihmcallister wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
all 737MAX Aircraft should be grounded till the cause is determined

....jump the gun much?


I don't think a grounding would jump the gun. Even at a casual first glance, this accident is too similar to the Lion Air crash for it to be discounted. Altitude fluctuations and a clearly catastrophic loss of control minutes after take off. Unless this is a bombing, the FAA will almost be forced to suspend the type certificate pending investigation into the flight system.


Except it is absolutely not similar. It is a totally different stage of flight where the system presumed to have contributed to the lion air crash would not have been active.

The similarities are:. 737maxes crashed and killed people. There was some instability in the latest profile but there are many possible reasons for that, one of which is NOT the likely reason for the Lion air issue.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1479
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:24 pm

Mortyman wrote:
So a few options:

* MCAS
* Engine issue
* Pilot error
* Weather
* Hijacking / Terrorism


Weather was clear at the time. Press conference revealed request by flight crew to return to airport so I would -assume- that rules out hijacking.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11737
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:24 pm

I'm not on the grounding bandwagon, but then again I'm in France, not that many 737Max flying here, and I don't have a flight scheduled on one, nor anyone I know.

Are people here scheduled to fly soon on one and if so what are your thoughts ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
A3801000
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:24 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
In all likelihood this has nothing to do specifically with the Max.


Ahhhh, now we finally now for sure. Thank you!
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:24 pm

wjcandee wrote:
A320FlyGuy wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
)

How about engine failure?



It's possible....but the aircraft should have more than enough power to handle an engine failure at altitude


Didya not read the rest of my post?

C'mon. Takeoff from a hot, high-altitude airport with a well-loaded aircraft (admittedly for a 2-hour flight, so not max fuel). Engine failure if not handled properly could certainly be the cause of this.

Not saying it is. Saying that the sole focus on the differences in the MAX8 is stupid.

It could also be any distracting event, mismanaged by crappy CRM.

The point is that it is waaaaay too early to speculate about this. We don't even have liveatc to get a sense of the communications from the aircraft. For all we know, the pilots specified what the problem was. So we should chill.


You raise some points but an engine failure should not cause this type of catastrophe. Also, pre-certification testing specifically addresses maximum weight takeoffs, high altitude takeoffs and various other situations with a single engine.

Also, the pilot was in communication with the airport and reported control difficulty...if there had been engine failure, you can be sure it would have been mentioned.

This thread is largely pointless at this stage
...we know SFA at this stage other than another MAX has crashed and almost 200 people have sadly been dispatched off this earthly realm.
My other car is an A320-200
 
RalXWB
Posts: 444
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:24 pm

colingally wrote:
I find it weird the CEO of Ethiopian Airlines can stand in the middle of an active investigation area...


Nikki Lauda did the same after one of his 767s crashed in Thailand back in 1991.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:24 pm

KCaviator wrote:
Has there been another type of aircraft that has killed this many people so shortly after entry into service?

In 1964-65 the 727 had a horrible safety record at first. Let’s count the number of accidents as opposed to people. Reason is the mid 1960s had load factors in the 50% range. Had the 727s been full, then yes. In 1959-60 the Electra had at lest two crashes due to design flaw
Last edited by Bobloblaw on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BHM
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:03 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:25 pm

I joined this website because of my later in life fascination with aircraft. I get those complaining about the early crash speculations but those conversations have allowed me to learn so much about the field.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1053
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:26 pm

A320FlyGuy wrote:
Also, the pilot was in communication with the airport and reported control difficulty...if there had been engine failure, you can be sure it would have been mentioned.

.


Too soon to say that there weren't engine problems. We're relying on a CEO's quotes right now

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