PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:46 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Indy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.

Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?


Exactly. We don't know what caused the crash yet. So let's keep flying them and see if another crashes. A few hundred people have already lost their lives to this new plane. How many more should be lost before we determine the cause? Are you comfortable allowing the plane to keep flying knowing there is a possibility the cause may have been the same and there may be more planes flying around with the same problem? Remember when the DC-10 got grounded? Was that jumping the gun too?


INDY: Thank you for this post. You said exactly what I (and many thousands of others) are thinking right now. We are now at 300+ dead in 2 very similar crashes. How many more 737MAX jets will crash before someone will consider grounding the MAX fleet? How many more 737MAX passengers need to lost their lives before that happens? In a world where we all like data, these are now unreasonable questions to raise. I am 100% comfortable saying that neither I nor my family will be boarding a 737MAX operated by any carrier (sorry WN, AA and UA) until this issue is fully understood and resolved.


I’m quite certain all official parties involved are considering a grounding. Or are you only talking about a.net?

There is a subtle but important distinction between those calling for it to be grounded and those open to a grounding. As much as we might see similarities between these two accidents, we know very little about this second one.

Would waiting a week to see if information can be garnered from the CVR/FDR be unreasonable? Or perhaps ACARS data? Or something more detailed about what they said to ATC (as we’ve seen so many false comments in that regard in previous crashes)?

The last thing I want to see is a design flaw be once again responsible for a MAX crash, but you have to consider the possibility and be prepared to act on it. At the same time, how many times have we thought we had it all figured out in the hours/days after a crash only to find out it was an entirely different scenario?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
ACCS300
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:05 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:47 pm

Big news here on Canada this morning, CBCNN just went pretty in-depth with an aviation expert and discussing the MAX in detail. Could be of great concern to many Canadians as Air Canada and Westjet are investing heavily in the MAX as the future backbone of their respective fleets.
Last edited by ACCS300 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:48 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Indy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.

Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?


Exactly. We don't know what caused the crash yet. So let's keep flying them and see if another crashes. A few hundred people have already lost their lives to this new plane. How many more should be lost before we determine the cause? Are you comfortable allowing the plane to keep flying knowing there is a possibility the cause may have been the same and there may be more planes flying around with the same problem? Remember when the DC-10 got grounded? Was that jumping the gun too?


INDY: Thank you for this post. You said exactly what I (and many thousands of others) are thinking right now. We are now at 300+ dead in 2 very similar crashes. How many more 737MAX jets will crash before someone will consider grounding the MAX fleet? How many more 737MAX passengers need to lost their lives before that happens? In a world where we all like data, these are now unreasonable questions to raise. I am 100% comfortable saying that neither I nor my family will be boarding a 737MAX operated by any carrier (sorry WN, AA and UA) until this issue is fully understood and resolved.


The problem with this position is that we understand the Lionair crash reasonably well now. It was an airplane problem but one solvable by pilot training and understanding of the MCAS. So to me saying that grounding is warranted until we understand this crash is intellectually honest but bringing Lionair into the conversation isn’t (unless grounding is always warranted after a crash to which an aircraft system contributes).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cschleic
Posts: 1691
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:48 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
cschleic wrote:
flyingbird wrote:

It's better to try to understand the data instead of claming that it's bad or impossible.
When on ground the transponder transmitts 0 altitude.
On take off the transponder changes to transmitting AMSL altitude.
And suddelty everything makes sense.
Same thing happens on landing, but other way around. From 7600 feet altitude goes to 0.

Image


Interesting data. But am I reading it correctly.....the altitude goes from 0 to 7,200 (airborne?) when it's at 93 knots? The altitude doesn't show 7,600 ft. until later when the speed is 232 knots, one minute later, after it has had fluctuating vertical speed readings.


Bole Airport is 7625 feet above sea level. Keep that in mind. The land around might be lower.


I know that. But if the transponder begins sending MSL altitude upon takeoff, how does it show 425 feel below the airport as the first reading?
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:51 pm

For the people saying that they will avoid the MAX at all costs, this is just plain idiotic and a total overreaction.

There is ZERO evidence connecting this incident to the Lion Air incident. Until further information comes to light there is no reason to suggest that they are related.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:51 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
The 1992 Air Inter accident was almost 4 years after the A320’s 1988 entry into service. You’re probably thinking of the Air France and Indian Airlines accidents, both of which occurred within two years of EIS.


This is slightly comparing apples with pears.

The Air France 296 crash was to do with incorrect altitude inputs and as a result the aircrafts inability to understand if it had landed. There were no direct fatalities (3 died later from related injuries).

Inter 146 was again pilot error as they input a rate of decent as foot per minute rather than AoA and didn’t recognise the error, flying at night in weather.

Neither of these accidents seem to relate to what is being speculated here (accusation that this is another Lion Air) as this is a software change that was not properly communicated and has the potential to cause such a violent, unpredictable and fatal change to the aircrafts behaviour.

Amsterdam wrote:
Besides that, even if you forget flaps AND the alarm is defect, then still you will have a completely different problem, at the moment the speed you have calculated for rotation the ac will not lift off. So you have to postpone etc. Completely different situation scenario. The pilots would not have called to return after being airborn.

So we should put the no flaps take off theory really in the closet now.


Despite all the alarms that would sound and the lack of rotation performance, lack of flaps would not cause a nose down crash. The airspeed isn’t reported as being anywhere near a no flaps stall for what is recorded on FR24.

Sandyb123


I think the fact that you know now what caused those crashes then is called hindsight. In the hours after a plane goes down, there is usually lots of speculation and very few facts.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mm320cap
Posts: 303
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:35 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:51 pm

JohnKrist wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:

-or- let’s ground Lion Air and Ethiopian Airways until the crash can be figured out. Makes more sense. They have crashed a whole lot of planes and killed a lot of people so until we know just ground them.


They have? Really...

United Airlines have had more incidents and deaths than ET in the same timeframe, Lion has had one major crash in 16 years of operation. Heck, KLM caused more deaths in One accident than Lion and ET together have in their lifetime.



What are you talking about???? Ethiopian had a fatal crash in 2009 killing 90. Not counting hijackings (which both Ethiopian and UAL have been victims of), United lost 1 passenger to turbulence in 1997. The last fatal accident on a UAL plane was in 1991. Considering the number of flights UAL does per year compared to Ethiopian, your insinuation that Ethiopian and Lion are safer than UAL is laughable.
 
Jetty
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:53 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Jetty wrote:
soectre99 wrote:

It is literally far safer to fly on a Max (taking into account these 2 incidents) than sitting in a car on the way to an airport.

There are ~350 737MAX delivered which on average are ~1 year old and fly ~6 flights a day. Thus about 750.000 flights have been operated of which 2 killed all passangers. Taking into account these accidents the chance of dying on this plane is 1 in 375.000. The chance of dying in traffic in Western countries on any given day is about 1 in 12.000.000. So even if my numbers are a bit off (which they will be), you’re very very wrong. Unless you compare the 737MAX with driving a bike in Thailand that is.


I assume you need to use passenger miles or at least total people for a valid comparison. Say, 375,000 x 150 or some such. You are conflating total accidents with the chance of dying.

That would make sense indeed, if such a calculation makes sense with the much too small sample size of the 737MAX at all. However in my example I went with the proposition of soectre99: "it's safer to fly on a 737MAX than to travel to the airport even if you assume that the current 2 accidents reflect the actual danger of the former".
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:55 pm

AeroplaneFreak wrote:
For the people saying that they will avoid the MAX at all costs, this is just plain idiotic and a total overreaction.

There is ZERO evidence connecting this incident to the Lion Air incident. Until further information comes to light there is no reason to suggest that they are related.


People choosing to avoid the MAX is neither idiotic nor a total overreaction. On the contrary, given the two crashes with some surface similarities in such a short time frame, and without much to go on to assuage their fears, avoiding the MAX seems completely rational on a personal level.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
cdin844
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:56 pm

Has anyone here flown a MAX and could explain the differences between it and a traditional 737? I sat in between two Southwest pilots on a MAX a few months back and the only thing they mentioned was a longer start up time.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:56 pm

Jetty wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Jetty wrote:
There are ~350 737MAX delivered which on average are ~1 year old and fly ~6 flights a day. Thus about 750.000 flights have been operated of which 2 killed all passangers. Taking into account these accidents the chance of dying on this plane is 1 in 375.000. The chance of dying in traffic in Western countries on any given day is about 1 in 12.000.000. So even if my numbers are a bit off (which they will be), you’re very very wrong. Unless you compare the 737MAX with driving a bike in Thailand that is.


I assume you need to use passenger miles or at least total people for a valid comparison. Say, 375,000 x 150 or some such. You are conflating total accidents with the chance of dying.

That would make sense indeed, if such a calculation makes sense with the much too small sample size of the 737MAX at all. However in my example I went with the proposition of soectre99: "it's safer to fly on a 737MAX than to travel to the airport even if you assume that the current 2 accidents reflect the actual danger of the former".


Well I guess it’s all meaningless then since it’s just random comparisons and not statistically accurate.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3251
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:56 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
6 minutes into the flight...would the flaps have been retracted yet? If flaps were extended, MCAS would have been disabled. Playback shows flight ended at an altitude of 8600 ft...quite different from the previous MAX accident.


They are only 1000 ft off the ground at that location. So they were not 8600 ft. above the ground. 1000 ft. above ground could be hard to recover especially in high, hot climate.
 
khobar95
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:59 pm

Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:59 pm

cdin844 wrote:
Has anyone here flown a MAX and could explain the differences between it and a traditional 737? I sat in between two Southwest pilots on a MAX a few months back and the only thing they mentioned was a longer start up time.


The whole design concept (and the way they got into trouble with MCAS) is that it flies pretty similarly to an -NG. From a passenger perspective they are virtually indistinguishable.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:00 pm

khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."


Too bad he’s wrong. FR24 has already told us that the transmission did not cease at all. FR24’s coverage did.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3251
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:02 pm

Finn350 wrote:
There are 350 Boeing 737 MAX delivered as of January 31, 2019. Even if this crash is MCAS related, grounding the fleet will be a difficult decision for the FAA. There is a procedure how to recover the aircraft from the MCAS fault, not to mention the huge
 inconvenience 
the grounding would cause to the travelling public.


So if the MCAS is at fault it's a huge inconvenience to the flying public to ground a plane? Somehow if that's the case the dead & their families would disagree with you. Safety MUST come first in this industry.
 
bob75013
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:05 pm

khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."


But the impact crater seems to indicate a near vertical impact of an intact airplane. A catastrophic in air failure would not have yielded that crater. Perhaps a catastrophic failure of transmission, though.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:05 pm

MikeAlpha95 wrote:
Please don't mix TAS with GS

Wind at the airport was less than 10knots, easterly.
> HAAB 100600Z 07010KT 9999 FEW025 18/09 Q1029=
> HAAB 100500Z 06008KT 9999 FEW025 16/10 Q1029=
Murphy is an optimist
 
khobar95
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:07 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."


Too bad he’s wrong. FR24 has already told us gay the transmission did not cease at all. FR24’s coverage did.


Ah, thank you!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13998
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:09 pm

khobar95 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."


Too bad he’s wrong. FR24 has already told us gay the transmission did not cease at all. FR24’s coverage did.


Ah, thank you!


No worries. These threads move way too quickly. It was something like 400 posts ago.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
YoungDon
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:09 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
There are 350 Boeing 737 MAX delivered as of January 31, 2019. Even if this crash is MCAS related, grounding the fleet will be a difficult decision for the FAA. There is a procedure how to recover the aircraft from the MCAS fault, not to mention the huge
 inconvenience 
the grounding would cause to the travelling public.


So if the MCAS is at fault it's a huge inconvenience to the flying public to ground a plane? Somehow if that's the case the dead & their families would disagree with you. Safety MUST come first in this industry.


Completely agreed. Calling people idiots for taking the safety of themselves and their families into their own hands is uncalled for. Given what we know right now, folks choosing to avoid the max is totally justified.
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:10 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
People choosing to avoid the MAX is neither idiotic nor a total overreaction. On the contrary, given the two crashes with some surface similarities in such a short time frame, and without much to go on to assuage their fears, avoiding the MAX seems completely rational on a personal level.


The incident only occurred hours ago and many people on here are suggesting it is similar to Lion Air. There is ZERO evidence proving this. Until any actual evidence comes to light there is no reason to avoid the MAX.

If it does eventuate there are similarities between the two incidents, then by all means we should be discussing a potential grounding, but to suggest a grounding and to "AVOID AT ALL COSTS" at this moment in time is just a total overreaction.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:12 pm

Everyone is focussing on TWO crashed 737 Max 8 planes.

One in November and one in March?

I came on here to see what you guys thought about the Lion crash. Many seemed to suggest the pilots could have handled that flight better. Indeed pilots on the previous Lion flight handled similar issues and landed the plane.

Based on a poster above saying 350 planes of this type fly 6 times ish per day. By my reckoning there will have been 200,000 plus flights on these planes between the two crashes?

Surely the clues to any inherent problem will be as much in those flights as in these two crashed ones. If not more so. The stats suggest so much more could be learnt from any issues on those 200,000 flights than the current crashed flight IMO.

I said it back then and I say it again. When we clearly have different level pilots dealing with issues on a daily basis why is it only the crashed planes where we PROPERLY try and learn from and piece every millisecond together?

How would we know if other pilots in the 200,000 flights since the lion crash on these type planes have successfully dealt with similar issues the tragic Lion flight pilots didn't deal with. Or perhaps the clues to what these pilots couldn't deal with MIGHT just be in some of those 200,000 flights since Lion? Maybe. Maybe not.

I think the odds are impossible that other warnings etc or issues in these type of planes haven't also occurred since IF there is an inherent problem. Problems don't always crash planes as we know. Far far more often than not the pilots deal with the problems. If there are ongoing problems then Boeing should already know what they are. Assuming the systems to report them and investigate those problems are adequate and taken seriously enough.

I still get the sense it takes an actual tragedy to really make any impact. And here goes another huge investigation under terrible circumstances at huge expense. What have we learnt from those 200,000 flights that might be relevant? Anything?

Does anyone know? Can the public access the reported issues on these planes or do we only find out about problems when planes actually crash?

Since the Lion crash have pilots of these planes faced similar issues they have successfully dealt with or not?

Or do they just get covered up or discounted or brushed under the carpet?
Last edited by Interested on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:12 pm

Jetty wrote:
I assume you need to use passenger miles or at least total people for a valid comparison. Say, 375,000 x 150 or some such. You are conflating total accidents with the chance of dying.
That would make sense indeed, if such a calculation makes sense with the much too small sample size of the 737MAX at all. However in my example I went with the proposition of soectre99: "it's safer to fly on a 737MAX than to travel to the airport even if you assume that the current 2 accidents reflect the actual danger of the former".


I think the only stat many people would consider right now is that there have been 350 MAXs delivered, flying for maybe a year in average - and 2 crashes. Out of 350 new cars how many of those will be in a total fatal crash their first year? Lot less than 2. I think people have a right to be concerned until a root cause is determined.
Last edited by remcor on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
sassiciai
Posts: 1091
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm

cdin844 wrote:
Has anyone here flown a MAX and could explain the differences between it and a traditional 737? I sat in between two Southwest pilots on a MAX a few months back and the only thing they mentioned was a longer start up time.

I'm not a commercial pilot, nor an aeronautical engineer. I do know that to fit the larger diameter engines under the B737 MAX variant without amending its undercarriage, Boeing has ended up mounting the heavier engines further forward (and upward, I imagine) to achieve sufficient ground clearance

Some posts in this thread allude to this causing balance issues. Some went further and said that the MAX was now like any current fighter, inherently unstable but kept in check with software-ordered controls!

I can certainly imagine the issues on the airframe of moving the engines forward - that alone would surely change the aircraft's flying characteristics. The fact that Boeing had to add the MCAS solution speaks to this problem, and sounds like maybe it was inadequately tested, explained, and allowed to go live with little or no communication and/or education

Grandfathering certification of an airframe originally certified 50 years ago: is this the right thing to do in the 21st century? Would not a more robust certification regime not have been generally justified, and might it not have more adequately tested changes to the new model?
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm

Goodness people ok here are being ridiculous. Going off of 0 information and just starting their roasting of an aircraft. Let’s not jump the gun and let the investigators do their job.

My thoughts go out to the families of the accident.

Also note that MCAS only activated when flaps are up. This aircraft didn’t make it far enough into the flight for that to occur.
I also found this picture very interesting
Image
https://twitter.com/satcom_guru/status/ ... 60096?s=21
Last edited by ikolkyo on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm

YoungDon wrote:
Given what we know right now, folks choosing to avoid the max is totally justified.


"What we know"? We don't know anything, all we have is speculative information.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 pm

khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."

Like possibly a bomb brought the aircraft down?
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
N212R
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:15 pm

khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."


This is industry (ie financial and media) "spin". CNN is in the disinformation game.
Last edited by N212R on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:15 pm

Even if this is an mcas issue or lack of pilot training/understanding of the system, is it really possible to lawn dart the airplane into the ground in perfect day conditions? Can these issues escalate so much that pilots can’t even keep an airplane upright with clear view of outside and the ground? I’m not criticizing anyone here, but in IMC or night conditions is one thing, but let’s say if this IS a similar problem to JT610, how can this happen in those perfect conditions?
 
travaz
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:15 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Goodness people ok here are being ridiculous. Going off of 0 information and just starting their roasting of an aircraft. Let’s not jump the gun and let the investigators do their job.

My thoughts go out to the families of the accident.



This is no longer possible on this site.
 
ual763
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:19 pm

max999 wrote:
Condolences to all those involved.

After the Lion Air crash, the AA and WN pilots unions were quite upset about Boeing's lack of communication about the new features in the MAX that could have caused the crash. I understand AA management also made a statement they were not happy either.

However unlike AA and WN, UA's management and pilots union did not seem to be troubled by the MAX. I think UA pilots will change their opinion now after this crash.


I think you’re wrong. The UA, AA, & WN pilots are going to wait until they know what happened.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
buzzard302
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:21 pm

AeroplaneFreak wrote:
YoungDon wrote:
Given what we know right now, folks choosing to avoid the max is totally justified.


"What we know"? We don't know anything, all we have is speculative information.


What we know is that two brand new max variant planes crashed into the ground and killed everyone on board. And we don't have a published explanation or conclusion in either case. So what we" know" is that we don't know. I wouldn't purposely choose a 737max right now either. It's called basic logic. When it is explained and resolved, most people will be comfortable again.
 
estorilm
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:22 pm

rbavfan wrote:
They are only 1000 ft off the ground at that location. So they were not 8600 ft. above the ground. 1000 ft. above ground could be hard to recover especially in high, hot climate.

They were clearly more than 1000' off the ground, as the plane is COMPLETELY destroyed to an astonishing level. The FR24 data stopped as they're basically in the middle of nowhere with limited coverage. Look at the graph - it didn't plummet or drop, the graph simply ended (as did the data points posted above).


khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."

WOW that guy is a complete idiot. To the point where it's embarrassing, even for CNN's wonderful history of air crash reporting.

1) As has been established, the data ENDED. The last data point showed the aircraft continuing in what was (at the time of LOS) a predictable manner.
2) It's been reported that they called in aircraft trouble and requested return to the field, that's not "sudden catastrophic failure".
3) Catastrophic in-flight failure would GUARANTEE at least some substantial aircraft structure at the crash site, of which there is hardly anything remaining.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."

Like possibly a bomb brought the aircraft down?


With a bomb or catostrophic failure does a pilot ask permission to return to the airport?
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."

Like possibly a bomb brought the aircraft down?

Nobody at the moment knows about airspeed or height during the crash.
Available data stops before the crash due to limited range of the monitoring installation(s).

What is known: the plane/crew had problems and wanted to return.
the plane crashed in a high speed high incidence impact. cue the crater.
Last edited by WIederling on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
zakelwe
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
zakelwe wrote:


I take exception to this post because it shows an ingrained bias anchored in the past.

Africa, traditionally, has a poor aviation record due to the following

1. Extreme weather.
2. Poorer air training for pilots comparatively.
3. Non modern aircraft, often 2nd hand.
4. Maintenance less effective, magnified by 3.
5. Poor infrastructure.

However in this case, 1, 3 and 4 are negated. It is far too early to decide on the reason for this crash. The same argument was used for when Lion Air crashed, and it was far too early. That investigation is still ongoing.
.


Weren't there maintenance issues discovered with the Lion Air flight? Or at least maintenance red flags yet the plane was still in service?


Is the final report out yet? See last 5 words above.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:26 pm

AeroplaneFreak wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
People choosing to avoid the MAX is neither idiotic nor a total overreaction. On the contrary, given the two crashes with some surface similarities in such a short time frame, and without much to go on to assuage their fears, avoiding the MAX seems completely rational on a personal level.


The incident only occurred hours ago and many people on here are suggesting it is similar to Lion Air. There is ZERO evidence proving this. Until any actual evidence comes to light there is no reason to avoid the MAX.

If it does eventuate there are similarities between the two incidents, then by all means we should be discussing a potential grounding, but to suggest a grounding and to "AVOID AT ALL COSTS" at this moment in time is just a total overreaction.


You have zero say in what an individual deems safe or unsafe for them and their families. None. If you want to say grounding it at this stage is silly, fine, but there might actually be one or two people who got in this plane this morning telling themselves ‘JT610 can’t happen again’ - yet it just may have. I’d imagine if given the chance, they’d choose to avoid the MAX at all costs.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:30 pm

When as a customer you book a plane flight where does it tell you what type of plane you will be flying on?
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3824
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:31 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
In all likelihood this has nothing to do specifically with the Max.

We had *a lot of* uninformed posts calling for immediate grounding of the 737Max series, which with the information we have at this point in time is very premature.

Your post, however, also falls well within "uninformed post" category . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
zakelwe
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:32 pm

BobleBrave wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
I can’t belive the first thing people are saying on this thread is ground the max! What if there was a terrorist on board, should we still ground it then?
We have no idea what caused this crash can we wait a couple days for our knee jerk reactions?
People died here


As many other posters have noted, the reason is called "precautionary principle" : "When an activity raises threats of harm to human health, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically."
On such a situation, this principle does not benefit Boeing and its economic performance but rather the safety of passengers.



What is the activity you are referring to in this case that raises threats to humans?

Nobody knows the reason for this crash at the moment, so how can you determine the activity?

I'm guessing you cannot name the activity.

??
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14327
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:32 pm

I don't believe there should be a grounding of all of the 737MAX aircraft, but perhaps an advisory to all operators to consider certain additional MX watches, notifying pilots to be aware of possible issues during takeoff and how to limit risks with this model until the investigations of the ET and Lion Air crashes are done. In the meantime Boeing and component makers can continue to look at other possible incidents of this model, look at the data, do testing in simulators and computers to figure out what may be happening and how to limit risk of crashes from this model.
 
estorilm
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."

Like possibly a bomb brought the aircraft down?

Nobody at the moment knows about airspeed or height during the crash.
Available data stops before the crash due to limited range of the monitoring installation(s).

What is known: the plane/crew had problems and wanted to return.
the plane crashed in a high speed high incidence impact. cue the crater.

THANK YOU!
There are TONS of people in here currently basing all of their assumptions and ideas on the thought that they "have the entire flight history" in that FR24 data graph.

This isn't a hard concept to understand... the DATA stopped, the PLANE continued!!
"This plane didn't even make it high enough for flaps to be up, so MCAS can't be at fault" - uh no, data stopped ~1000'AGL, which means nothing on its own. Everything after that = "fill in the blanks" game. Clearly the aircraft achieved substantial energy, either through altitude or raw airspeed (or both). None of that was shown on the FR24 data, yet we know it happened. Likely continued a normal climb before the event.
Last edited by estorilm on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4243
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:33 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
Sorry if this was already covered:

From: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... ?rc_fifo=1

Geoffrey Thomas, the editor in chief of Airline Ratings, told CNN the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday had "significant differences" to the Lion Air crash last year. On the Lion Air flight, there were "wild fluctuations in air speed and... we continued to get data from the plane all the way down to impact."
Sunday's crash, however, had "no fluctuations and all of the sudden transmission" ceased, he said. "That transmission ceasing indicates catastrophic failure in air."

Like possibly a bomb brought the aircraft down?


First and most important, I want to send my deepest condolences to the families and loves ones of those lost on this flight. Also I send my deepest sorrows to Ethiopian Airlines.

As for a bomb? Possible, but I doubt it. The crew reported control problems, and I would guess if they had time to report that, they would have hinted to some type of explosion during those distress calls and need to return back to the airport.

As for the argument of grounding the MAX? I am all for it. Especially since we have had 2 crashes of the same type in such a short time period. I would rather ground them now, than keep chancing it if there is a design problem. I would rather jump the gun, than chance it. I think airlines that have these right now can volunteer to ground. Yes, its gonna hit some bottom lines, but... Life is more important than profits.

I hope they rush the black boxes as soon as possible. If it is a computer system hindering crews from flying, then its time to fix it ASAP. There has been some who have commented that the last 2 crashes of these planes come from regions that have poor safety records. However, the previous Lion Air crash is pointing at a competent crew fighting a system that wouldnt let them fly the plane.

And let's just say this crash comes out as pilot error, or something not related to the plane itself, then jumping the gun would be still the safer option in my opinion. History always has a way of repeating itself!!! The Comet, DC-10, and the list goes on. Then comes the shocking crashes where crews forgot to simply lower the flaps for takeoff. So many things in play here.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:34 pm

Looking at these photos it really looks to me the aircraft pancaked/hit the ground at some sort of angle to ground.

Also I’d like to repeat this again, MCAS can only be active in a flaps up condition. This aircraft did not make it far enough into flight for flaps to have already been retracted.
Last edited by ikolkyo on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 893
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:36 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
FWIW, I'm bothered by the ground-the-max-without-knowing-what-happened crowd. But I have to say I'm also bothered by the rather defensive and repeated posts from the other side. It *is* clear that losing two brand new aircraft within months is a remarkable deviation from the safety record we've been used to.

You sir are spot on. It’s worth considering but also worth rejecting. The vitriol on both sides is disappointing in a discussion board.
Last edited by SuseJ772 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:36 pm

So if we simply say that these two incidents are the result of technical faults (human error aside), can we at least boil these down?

1. New engine placement = inherent instability. (Common for military AC.) This instability contributes the plane's tendency to want to pitch up (ascent). I would also argue that this instability would make a stall more difficult to mitigate. Fixable? Maybe, maybe not. The bandaid just might not work here. See point #2. Arguably better to not have to need such aids but all modern commercial aircraft have them in some form.

2. Boeing adjusted a previous (reliable) system, now calling it MCAS, as a way to mitigate this instability. MCAS, like many systems, can cause their own problems if not fed correct information. Fixable? Possibly with software adjustments.

3. Pitot tubes. If faulty can feed MCAS incorrect information. Was there a bad batch of these? In what proximity was the Ethiopian plane manufactured to the Lion Air plane? Fixable? Should be if a bad batch is the main culprit.

4. The engines themselves. Is something causing them to stall? Shut down? Only FDR/CVR could tell us. Fixable? Should be.
Last edited by GEUltraFan9XGTF on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
© 2019. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
zakelwe
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:38 pm

Sadly I think the fact that the only connecting point between Lion Air and this crash is the

MAX

and rather than wait for not only this investigation to take it's course, and even the previous one where final summary has not yet been published, people on the internet can dot the i's and cross the t's.

Such is the modern world. No editorial control of the general mass, unlike the editor of the The Times, 50 years back, who could weedle out the crackpots before it got to press.......
Last edited by zakelwe on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
falconkutscher
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:38 pm

Interested wrote:
Everyone is focussing on TWO crashed 737 Max 8 planes.

One in November and one in March?

I came on here to see what you guys thought about the Lion crash. Many seemed to suggest the pilots could have handled that flight better. Indeed pilots on the previous Lion flight handled similar issues and landed the plane.

Based on a poster above saying 350 planes of this type fly 6 times ish per day. By my reckoning there will have been 200,000 plus flights on these planes between the two crashes?

Surely the clues to any inherent problem will be as much in those flights as in these two crashed ones. If not more so. The stats suggest so much more could be learnt from any issues on those 200,000 flights than the current crashed flight IMO.

I said it back then and I say it again. When we clearly have different level pilots dealing with issues on a daily basis why is it only the crashed planes where we PROPERLY try and learn from and piece every millisecond together?

How would we know if other pilots in the 200,000 flights since the lion crash on these type planes have successfully dealt with similar issues the tragic Lion flight pilots didn't deal with. Or perhaps the clues to what these pilots couldn't deal with MIGHT just be in some of those 200,000 flights since Lion? Maybe. Maybe not.

I think the odds are impossible that other warnings etc or issues in these type of planes haven't also occurred since IF there is an inherent problem. Problems don't always crash planes as we know. Far far more often than not the pilots deal with the problems. If there are ongoing problems then Boeing should already know what they are. Assuming the systems to report them and investigate those problems are adequate and taken seriously enough.

I still get the sense it takes an actual tragedy to really make any impact. And here goes another huge investigation under terrible circumstances at huge expense. What have we learnt from those 200,000 flights that might be relevant? Anything?

Does anyone know? Can the public access the reported issues on these planes or do we only find out about problems when planes actually crash?

Since the Lion crash have pilots of these planes faced similar issues they have successfully dealt with or not?

Or do they just get covered up or discounted or brushed under the carpet?


Very good post - in my oppinion.

I have heard one crew on radio asking to join the holding east of ADD (AB002) to deal with conttol issues. Aircraft landed safely shortly after me though.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7112
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:38 pm

zakelwe wrote:
I take exception to this post because it shows an ingrained bias anchored in the past.

Africa, traditionally, has a poor aviation record due to the following

1. Extreme weather.
2. Poorer air training for pilots comparatively.
3. Non modern aircraft, often 2nd hand.
4. Maintenance less effective, magnified by 3.
5. Poor infrastructure.

However in this case, 1, 3 and 4 are negated. It is far too early to decide on the reason for this crash. The same argument was used for when Lion Air crashed, and it was far too early. That investigation is still ongoing.


Within hours of the accident, how did you eliminate 1,3 and 4?
Just throwing in "ongoing investigation" doesn't' hide which way you are leaning.
I file your assessment under structural or cultural R category. I eliminated individual, interpersonal and institutional categories.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos