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American 767 wrote:Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.
American 767 wrote:Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s,
leftcoast8 wrote:I think the last scheduled Il-96 service by SU was to Uzbekistan, which was ended in 2014.
timpdx wrote:leftcoast8 wrote:I think the last scheduled Il-96 service by SU was to Uzbekistan, which was ended in 2014.
Yeah, I saw that bird in TAS in 2010 an soooo wished I was on her. Instead I was off to FRU in a packed HY RJ85. And the engines blocked the view towards the beautiful mountain ranges from TAS to FRU.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:Back in the 70's, if an airline had a mixed fleet that also included 80 aircraft of the same type, all consecutively registered, this was a big thing. Only a handful of airlines could boast that sort of purchasing power, all of them major US carriers.
And then there was Aeroflot.... [...]
SheikhDjibouti wrote:American 767 wrote:Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s,
Mostly accurate, but still understating the situation somewhat.
Back in the 70's, if an airline had a mixed fleet that also included 80 aircraft of the same type, all consecutively registered, this was a big thing. Only a handful of airlines could boast that sort of purchasing power, all of them major US carriers.
And then there was Aeroflot....
They had hundreds of An-24s and Yak-40s for regional services. More Yak-40s were used for pilot training.
There were developments of the An-24 (An-26s and An-30s) for freight and aerial surveys.
Literally thousands of An-2s, for everything from crop-spraying to parachute training.
They had the almost forgotten Yak-42s, and supersonic Tu-144s
They also still operated Il-18s; the photo on the left shows a VIP machine still flying in 2009, and the other curiosity is a weather research Il-18 on it's way to Cuba. You don't find aircraft like that flying for Delta or American Airlines.
And of course hundreds and hundreds of Il-76s for freight, alongside the An-12 and An-22.
These days air freight is a big thing, but back in the 1980's US air freight meant either Seaboard World or Flying Tigers, with a dozen or so DC-8-63F and the at best around 20 B747-200F. Or niche operators such as TIA with a handful of L-100 inherited from Saturn, or Fedex with their pretty little Falcon20s and some early 727s.
Meanwhile Aeroflot were moving freight on an industrial scale....
And then there were the helicopters, in every shape and size.
(Ok, so this photo shows a military helicopter in 2012, but back in the 1980's the same machine might have turned up with Aeroflot titles!)
But it's true to say that the international services were not as well developed, unless you wanted to visit Bulgaria or East Germany....
American 767 wrote:during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country
American 767 wrote:And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world.
Flyingsottsman wrote:Very interesting read there thanks for the information and photos. As a kid at school I remember reading the civil airlines books in the school library with Aeroflot as one airline mentioned, I suppose they were a self sustaining airline as in all the aircraft made in the USSR at that time IL, TU the Yaks, Antonov all the Mi's helicopters they were ready made for Aeroflot.
How many IL 86's were produced and flown by SU and where did they fly them to,
The a.net photo database might give you some a cluesWhere did they fly?
Flyingsottsman wrote:Perhaps you meant inter-continental? Failing that, the majority of their international flights were all within Europe, hence not actually requiring a long range Il-62.I know most of their international routes were flown by the IL 62,
American 767 wrote:Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.
RWA380 wrote:American 767 wrote:Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.
I can remember seeingn an IL-62 at JFK bound for SNN & onto Moscow. They didn't have a lot of range, the IL-86 took care of the SNN stop, IIRC.
luckyone wrote:RWA380 wrote:American 767 wrote:Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.
I can remember seeingn an IL-62 at JFK bound for SNN & onto Moscow. They didn't have a lot of range, the IL-86 took care of the SNN stop, IIRC.
The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.
CairnterriAIR wrote:Yes, that is true. But keep in mind that the USSR was a communist nation and Aeroflot was owned by the government.
luckyone wrote:The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.
Wikipedia wrote:The Ilyushin Il-86 (Russian: Илью́шин Ил-86; NATO reporting name: Camber) is a short- to medium-range wide-body jet airliner.
American 767 wrote:This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.
Wikipedia wrote:The first Air Services Agreement with the United States in 1945 only permitted flights to Shannon and only permitted Irish airlines to serve Boston, Chicago and New York. In 1971, the US Civil Aeronautics Board announced that unless US planes were allowed to operate into Dublin Airport they proposed to ban Aer Lingus from landing in New York. Eventually an agreement was reached which allowed one US carrier, TWA, to service Dublin Airport through Shannon.
In 1990, the U.S.-Irish bilateral agreement was changed to allow Irish airlines to serve Los Angeles and additional U.S. airlines to serve Dublin via Shannon. An amendment in 1993 allowed airlines to provide direct transatlantic services to Dublin, but 50% of transatlantic flights had to either originate or stop over in Shannon.
American 767 wrote:This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.
Under tow to the Aer Rianta International hangar for painting in Aeroflot colours.
The a/c had earlier arrived from Tupolev with just a crew and KGB officer as escort onboard
American 767 wrote:This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN?
iRISH251 wrote:American 767 wrote:This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.
Actually SU operated a separate SVO-SNN-SVO service with Tu-134s or Tu-154s - once or twice a week, I think. Later there was a LED-SNN-LED route for a while as well. Aeroflot did have traffic rights on SNN-MIA, which was attractive for Irish holidaymakers looking for a cheaper way of getting to Florida. As this was operated by an Il-62, it probably didn't tech-stop at YQX. There may also have been traffic rights to some of the other non-US destinations from SNN, though I don't think the demand would have been great.
leftcoast8 wrote:American 767 wrote:during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the countryAmerican 767 wrote:And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world.
A notable exception besides Romania was China (which was not a Warsaw Pact member but was still a communist state). PRC was not on good terms with the USSR after the Sino-Soviet Split. Mao was amazed by the 707 Air Force One that was used for Nixon's visit to the PRC in 1972. The Civil Aviation Administration of China ended up ordering ten 707s, with deliveries between 1973-74. CAAC would end up being a dedicated Boeing customer, acquiring three 747SPs, two 747-200s, five 767-200s (three being the -ER variant). Besides this, CAAC also had 41 Tridents, 10 BAe 146 aircraft, eight MD-82s, and five A310s ordered in the mid 80s. Before Nixon's visit, CAAC also had seven Vickers Viscount aircraft, delivered between 1963-1970. The Chinese government ordered four spare engines for each 707 order, but unlike the Soviet aircraft, the 707 engines were so dependable that a Boeing customer support engineer noted many of the spare engines were still in their crates fifteen years later. CAAC operated the Ilyushin Il-62 on routes to the USSR or Warsaw Pact countries.
The story of how TAROM got western aircraft is also very interesting. Richard Nixon gifted Nicolae Ceaușescu his personal Buick 225 Electra in order to curry favour with the Romanian government. TAROM's 707s didn't arrive until 1974, the order had to be done through political backchannels to avoid upsetting the Soviet Union. Ceaușescu refused to contribute to the 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, and Romania did not boycott the 1984 Summer Olympics either. Romania under Ceaușescu could almost have been considered a western ally.
Ethiopian Airlines under Mengistu Haile Mariam and the Derg also flew western aircraft, such as the Boeing 720.
luckyone wrote:The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.
eta unknown wrote:I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?
eta unknown wrote:I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?
leleko747 wrote:eta unknown wrote:I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?
Recife and Salvador had the Aeroflot IL-86, I believe it was for refuel indeed.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:I saw these and just couldn't resist....
All these photos are from Shannon, 1988/89. Those were the days.....
Eastbound meets westbound?
[photoid]1494866[/photoid