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Wynnster8
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How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Sun May 05, 2019 6:45 pm

From what I hear they operated thousands of planes and was the largest airline.
Any more details?

Thanks!
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anshabhi
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Sun May 05, 2019 6:47 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot

Aeroflot's demise was natural but look at Iran Air in the 70s to get a real sense of what politics does to aviation
 
CairnterriAIR
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Sun May 05, 2019 7:29 pm

Yes, that is true. But keep in mind that the USSR was a communist nation and Aeroflot was owned by the government. The company was responsible for every aspect of civilian operations, not only passenger service, but forestry, agricultural, humanitarian, and even some military cross utilization. In fact, the carrier operated in various divisions depending on the region, and when the Soviet Union broke up, these divisions were spun off into new private entities. Today’s Aeroflot was originally the international passenger operation of the old organization.
To answer your question as to how big the old company was....there were thousands of aircraft, but like what I said above, not all were engaged in hauling pax.
 
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American 767
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Sun May 05, 2019 11:59 pm

Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:15 am

Almost every aircraft made within Russia belonged to Aeroflot upon leaving the assembly lines. Then Aeroflot was further divided into respective regions or cities. No one knows for sure what was the actual fleet but I would say close to 7000 is a close bet.
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:32 am

American 767 wrote:
Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.


That's not entirely true, TAROM from Romania operated Boeing 707-300s and BAC 111 which were produced in Romania as well. Not to mention Aeroflot & Lockheed were quite close to signing a deal for the domestic production of the L-1011.
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:52 am

Was Aeroflot voted as the worst airline at one time?
 
69bug
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 12:59 am

The high number of airframes is probably due to the fact that the parts supply chain was not as efficient as the west. The probably had to factor more aircraft to cover aircraft under maintenance.

bug
 
cedarjet
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 1:03 am

My book Jetliners Of The Red Star, a history of all the soviet jet types, has the Aeroflot winter 1984 timetable in the back. Should be on Amazon in every country; happy reading!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
leftcoast8
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:14 am

Aeroflot used to fly the Ilyushin Il-86 and Il-96-300 into JFK until the mid 90s (can't pin down the date), when they were replaced with the Airbus A310. It's a 777-300ER now.

SU continued to fly Soviet widebodies into Europe before they were banned due to the implementation of ICAO Chapter 3 noise regulations in 2002. I think the last scheduled Il-96 service by SU was to Uzbekistan, which was ended in 2014.
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:32 am

American 767 wrote:
Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s,

Mostly accurate, but still understating the situation somewhat.
Back in the 70's, if an airline had a mixed fleet that also included 80 aircraft of the same type, all consecutively registered, this was a big thing. Only a handful of airlines could boast that sort of purchasing power, all of them major US carriers.
And then there was Aeroflot....

They had hundreds of An-24s and Yak-40s for regional services. More Yak-40s were used for pilot training.

There were developments of the An-24 (An-26s and An-30s) for freight and aerial surveys.
Literally thousands of An-2s, for everything from crop-spraying to parachute training.

They had the almost forgotten Yak-42s, and supersonic Tu-144s
They also still operated Il-18s; the photo on the left shows a VIP machine still flying in 2009, and the other curiosity is a weather research Il-18 on it's way to Cuba. You don't find aircraft like that flying for Delta or American Airlines. :shakehead:

And of course hundreds and hundreds of Il-76s for freight, alongside the An-12 and An-22.
These days air freight is a big thing, but back in the 1980's US air freight meant either Seaboard World or Flying Tigers, with a dozen or so DC-8-63F and the at best around 20 B747-200F. Or niche operators such as TIA with a handful of L-100 inherited from Saturn, or Fedex with their pretty little Falcon20s and some early 727s.
Meanwhile Aeroflot were moving freight on an industrial scale....


And then there were the helicopters, in every shape and size.
(Ok, so this photo shows a military helicopter in 2012, but back in the 1980's the same machine might have turned up with Aeroflot titles!)


But it's true to say that the international services were not as well developed, unless you wanted to visit Bulgaria or East Germany....
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
sprxUSA
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 2:50 am

Never mind...… miss seeing the Russian Aeroflot planes around.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
timpdx
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 3:02 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
I think the last scheduled Il-96 service by SU was to Uzbekistan, which was ended in 2014.


Yeah, I saw that bird in TAS in 2010 an soooo wished I was on her. Instead I was off to FRU in a packed HY RJ85. And the engines blocked the view towards the beautiful mountain ranges from TAS to FRU.
Flown 2018: LAX, ARN, DXB, ALA, TAS, UCG, ASB, MYP, GYD, TBS, KUT, BER, TLS, SVO, CCF, DUB, LGW, MEX, BUR, PDX, ORD, SLC, SNA
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:26 am

timpdx wrote:
leftcoast8 wrote:
I think the last scheduled Il-96 service by SU was to Uzbekistan, which was ended in 2014.


Yeah, I saw that bird in TAS in 2010 an soooo wished I was on her. Instead I was off to FRU in a packed HY RJ85. And the engines blocked the view towards the beautiful mountain ranges from TAS to FRU.


Seen them very frequently in DXB until 2014 or 2015 perhaps....
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:34 am

It's still amazing to think that there were almost Tristars in Aeroflot colours, and on the other hand, almost Yak 40s flying in the US..alas politics interfered..
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 7:43 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Back in the 70's, if an airline had a mixed fleet that also included 80 aircraft of the same type, all consecutively registered, this was a big thing. Only a handful of airlines could boast that sort of purchasing power, all of them major US carriers.
And then there was Aeroflot.... [...]


Always happy to read an ilustrated post like yours. Thank you.

Image

If all the military transportation aircraft of the US armed forces were registered under the Panam brand during the Cold War, it would have been a huge airline too.
Caravelle lover
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 10:41 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s,

Mostly accurate, but still understating the situation somewhat.
Back in the 70's, if an airline had a mixed fleet that also included 80 aircraft of the same type, all consecutively registered, this was a big thing. Only a handful of airlines could boast that sort of purchasing power, all of them major US carriers.
And then there was Aeroflot....

They had hundreds of An-24s and Yak-40s for regional services. More Yak-40s were used for pilot training.

There were developments of the An-24 (An-26s and An-30s) for freight and aerial surveys.
Literally thousands of An-2s, for everything from crop-spraying to parachute training.

They had the almost forgotten Yak-42s, and supersonic Tu-144s
They also still operated Il-18s; the photo on the left shows a VIP machine still flying in 2009, and the other curiosity is a weather research Il-18 on it's way to Cuba. You don't find aircraft like that flying for Delta or American Airlines. :shakehead:

And of course hundreds and hundreds of Il-76s for freight, alongside the An-12 and An-22.
These days air freight is a big thing, but back in the 1980's US air freight meant either Seaboard World or Flying Tigers, with a dozen or so DC-8-63F and the at best around 20 B747-200F. Or niche operators such as TIA with a handful of L-100 inherited from Saturn, or Fedex with their pretty little Falcon20s and some early 727s.
Meanwhile Aeroflot were moving freight on an industrial scale....


And then there were the helicopters, in every shape and size.
(Ok, so this photo shows a military helicopter in 2012, but back in the 1980's the same machine might have turned up with Aeroflot titles!)


But it's true to say that the international services were not as well developed, unless you wanted to visit Bulgaria or East Germany....


Very interesting read there thanks for the information and photos. As a kid at school I remember reading the civil airlines books in the school library with Aeroflot as one airline mentioned, I suppose they were a self sustaining airline as in all the aircraft made in the USSR at that time IL, TU the Yaks, Antonov all the Mi's helicopters they were ready made for Aeroflot. I was so excited to get a picture of an IL 62 at Heathrow in January of 1988 got the pic blown up and framed hanging on the wall at home. How many IL 86's were produced and flown by SU and where did they fly them to, I know most of their international routes were flown by the IL 62, but would say the TU 154 would have to have been the work horse for Aeroflot were they the medium to long haul airliners with the IL 62 being the long haul airliner, where did the Yak 42 fit into their operations? Their IL 18s was an attractive aircraft in the LOT colours, where did Aeroflot use these aircraft on? In a book of Russian airliners I have, Aeroflot painted some of their aircraft in a red livery planes that were based in the Northern Latitude Cities of the USSR. It was a fascinating airline in the cold war days they have come along way since the 70's and 80's. And a real shame you just don't see aircraft like that any more.
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 6:57 pm

American 767 wrote:
during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country


This was also true in South Korea, amusingly enough. The regime of Syngman Rhee banned ROK citizens from leaving the country. This was continued by Park Chung-hee after the May 16 coup, as well as Chun Doo-hwan after Park's assassination and the 1979 coup. The first liberalization occured on Jan. 1st, 1983, when ROK citizens aged 50+ were allowed to go on one trip per year. The next liberalization came on January 1, 1989, when all travel restrictions were lifted by President Roh Tae-woo upon the establishment of the Sixth Republic.

As an aside, the peaceful transition from Chun to Roh almost didn't happen. Chun intended on violently repressing pro-democracy protests in June of 1987 (known as the "June Struggle"), but that would have terrible PR since, as the Seoul Olympics were only 14 months away, the eyes of the world were on South Korea. All that being said, Chun nearly managed it. During the June Struggle, U.S. president Ronald Reagan personally appealed to Chun not to use force against the protestors. It is said that Reagan alluded to dire threats, such as suspending all U.S. funding to the ROK. An organization of U.S. diplomatic historians wrote an article about the whole situation: https://adst.org/2013/06/avoiding-marti ... orea-1987/

American 767 wrote:
And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world.


A notable exception besides Romania was China (which was not a Warsaw Pact member but was still a communist state). PRC was not on good terms with the USSR after the Sino-Soviet Split. Mao was amazed by the 707 Air Force One that was used for Nixon's visit to the PRC in 1972. The Civil Aviation Administration of China ended up ordering ten 707s, with deliveries between 1973-74. CAAC would end up being a dedicated Boeing customer, acquiring three 747SPs, two 747-200s, five 767-200s (three being the -ER variant). Besides this, CAAC also had 41 Tridents, 10 BAe 146 aircraft, eight MD-82s, and five A310s ordered in the mid 80s. Before Nixon's visit, CAAC also had seven Vickers Viscount aircraft, delivered between 1963-1970. The Chinese government ordered four spare engines for each 707 order, but unlike the Soviet aircraft, the 707 engines were so dependable that a Boeing customer support engineer noted many of the spare engines were still in their crates fifteen years later. CAAC operated the Ilyushin Il-62 on routes to the USSR or Warsaw Pact countries.

The story of how TAROM got western aircraft is also very interesting. Richard Nixon gifted Nicolae Ceaușescu his personal Buick 225 Electra in order to curry favour with the Romanian government. TAROM's 707s didn't arrive until 1974, the order had to be done through political backchannels to avoid upsetting the Soviet Union. Ceaușescu refused to contribute to the 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, and Romania did not boycott the 1984 Summer Olympics either. Romania under Ceaușescu could almost have been considered a western ally.

Ethiopian Airlines under Mengistu Haile Mariam and the Derg also flew western aircraft, such as the Boeing 720.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Mon May 06, 2019 11:24 pm

Flyingsottsman wrote:
Very interesting read there thanks for the information and photos. As a kid at school I remember reading the civil airlines books in the school library with Aeroflot as one airline mentioned, I suppose they were a self sustaining airline as in all the aircraft made in the USSR at that time IL, TU the Yaks, Antonov all the Mi's helicopters they were ready made for Aeroflot.

Not quite all Russian made; I didn't even mention they also operated some Czech LET L-410 Turbolets.
No idea on the numbers, but the serial range appears to be from CCCP-67001 thru to CCCP-67543, so 500 is certainly a possibility.
Photo on left; "one of twenty operated by the former Aeroflot flight training school at this airfield" [Sasovo]



How many IL 86's were produced and flown by SU and where did they fly them to,

Again, based on serial range, CCCP-86000 thru' CCCP-86149 suggest up to 150, but Wikipedia confirms only 106, including this beauty with some unusually large overhead lockers for passengers with really exceptional carry-on luggage..... ;)

Where did they fly?
The a.net photo database might give you some a clues
https://www.airliners.net/search?keywor ... lay=detail
(2,611 matches, listed alphabetically from Alicante to Zurich, often featuring successor airlines flying the same routes. Or you could limit the search to "Aeroflot" and photos dated 1980-89)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 12:37 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
I know most of their international routes were flown by the IL 62,
Perhaps you meant inter-continental? Failing that, the majority of their international flights were all within Europe, hence not actually requiring a long range Il-62.

e.g. Warsaw Pact countries; Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, - all short range
(I guess you might be less inclined to treat those as international routes, but they were, even before the fall of the Soviet bloc. :D )
Some examples from the remainder of Europe;
Finland (SVO-HEL = 545 miles)
Sweden (SVO-ARN = 760 miles)
W Germany (SVO-DUS = 1289 miles)
Netherlands (SVO-AMS = 1337 miles)
UK (SVO-LHR = 1563 miles)
All of these and many more are accessible to short/medium range aircraft. Even Madrid and Lisbon were within range of the Tu-154.

Having said that, Il-62s were regularly used on some of these shorter services, and appeared at other European locations due to itineraries such as the rather curious Triple-jump SU 331 Moscow - Frankfurt - Lisbon - Havana :scratchchin:

Meanwhile London was served by Tu-104 (1970s), Tu-134 and Tu-154, particularly the Friday Leningrad service into LHR, and holiday charters into LGW.
But I suppose they get forgotten because there was a daily Il-62 service.

Tu-104 departs Gatwick (1972), Tu-134 at Heathrow (1992), and a nice view of Gatwick in 1977 with a Tu-154 right in the middle of it all.

p.s. some other gems I have uncovered.
SU 581 LHR-SVO-NRT
SU 356 Santiago de Chile - Buenos Aires - Miami - Shannon - Moscow.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:50 am

American 767 wrote:
Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.


I can remember seeingn an IL-62 at JFK bound for SNN & onto Moscow. They didn't have a lot of range, the IL-86 took care of the SNN stop, IIRC.
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luckyone
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 3:29 am

RWA380 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.


I can remember seeingn an IL-62 at JFK bound for SNN & onto Moscow. They didn't have a lot of range, the IL-86 took care of the SNN stop, IIRC.

The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.
 
Flyingsottsman
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:45 am

luckyone wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Oh yes, it was the largest airline in the whole world, the equivalent of all the US based airlines that existed in the 80s combined. Incredibly huge yes, but it was the only airline that existed in the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Tupolev 134s and 154s, a combined fleet way larger than what the American MD-80 fleet ever was at its peak, those were the backbone of the Aeroflot fleet during the 70s and 80s, the vast majority of the Aeroflot fleet back then consisted of these two types as far as passenger hauling was concerned. Quite a few long haul aircraft too, IL-62s and 86s, but not that many compared to the hundreds of short and medium haul TU-134s and 154s, This was because, as explained above, Aeroflot was controlled by the USSR's communist regime, during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country, yes Aeroflot did fly at that time to cities in Western Europe (yes I remember) and even New York, but foreigners had to apply for a special visa and get a special invitation to enter the USSR. And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world. Of course it all changed in 1991 after the break up of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall two years prior to that.


I can remember seeingn an IL-62 at JFK bound for SNN & onto Moscow. They didn't have a lot of range, the IL-86 took care of the SNN stop, IIRC.

The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.


I remember seeing an IL 86 at Melbourne must be in the mid 90s I think, it was an IL86 belonging to an airline called AJT I think it was on a charter at the time but was damaged I think because of a very hard landing, I remember it being parked at Melbourne for like a month or so.
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:27 am

Growing up in Gander, Newfoundland……seeing IL-62’s and other Soviet aircraft from Aeroflot, Interflug (East Germany) CSA-Czechoslovak and Cubana was a daily occurrence.

They were in for fuel on their way to and from Cuba. During the stopover…..passengers were allowed into the terminal and many got their first taste of freedom and defected during the stopover. Canada would conveniently station an iconic ‘Mountie’…..RCMP Police Officer in the Gander Terminal whom the would be defectors could approach seeking asylum. Here’s an article from the ‘80s that appeared in the Chicago Tribune:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985 ... ing-lounge
 
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Springbok743
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 9:06 am

Used to fly them in Economy for work in Japan, the flights were much cheaper (as they could fly over USSR airspace), but the service was pretty hopeless, and their planes distinctly never settled upon a single thrust setting, always throttling up and then back down, made sleeping on flights pretty hard.
 
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 9:07 am

Someone mention Aeroflot helicopters?



That one actually looks pretty damn neat, other photos of it really show how timeless the old Aeroflot colour scheme was.

Pretty unusual to see some of the types of aircraft the Aeroflot name appeared on.
 
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thekorean
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 9:20 am

CairnterriAIR wrote:
Yes, that is true. But keep in mind that the USSR was a communist nation and Aeroflot was owned by the government.

So...just like now, lol.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 12:04 pm

luckyone wrote:
The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.

Some of that is true.
Soviet engine design lagged behind the West in terms of bypass ratios and fuel efficiency, and in essence everything else can be traced back to that.

However, I fear most people are fooled by the four-engine layout and automatically assume it was designed as a long-range inter-continental monster. :shakehead:
Wikipedia wrote:
The Ilyushin Il-86 (Russian: Илью́шин Ил-86; NATO reporting name: Camber) is a short- to medium-range wide-body jet airliner.

The fact that it could also hop across the Atlantic with a fuel stop at Shannon is just fortuitous.
It was the later Il-96 that offered true long-haul capability.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
drdisque
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:10 pm

Also, remember that at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, SU had hundreds of older TU-134's, TU-154's, and YAK-40's that almost never flew, yet they were still listed as part of the active fleet. As soon as the TU-154M was developed all the older TU-154's were almost immediately parked since the M was so much more capable, yet, the older airframes were still technically part of the fleet.
 
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American 767
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 4:05 pm

This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.
Ben Soriano
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 4:30 pm

American 767 wrote:
This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.

With all due respect to Shannon (& Gander), these are not destinations of choice.
Pretty much the only reason you would want to get off the plane there is to defect. :duck:

I suspect if you can access historic data, you will find that as soon as airlines got hold of modern equipment that had the range to reach the U.S. without stopping for fuel, movements at Shannon plummeted.

Wikipedia wrote:
The first Air Services Agreement with the United States in 1945 only permitted flights to Shannon and only permitted Irish airlines to serve Boston, Chicago and New York. In 1971, the US Civil Aeronautics Board announced that unless US planes were allowed to operate into Dublin Airport they proposed to ban Aer Lingus from landing in New York. Eventually an agreement was reached which allowed one US carrier, TWA, to service Dublin Airport through Shannon.
In 1990, the U.S.-Irish bilateral agreement was changed to allow Irish airlines to serve Los Angeles and additional U.S. airlines to serve Dublin via Shannon. An amendment in 1993 allowed airlines to provide direct transatlantic services to Dublin, but 50% of transatlantic flights had to either originate or stop over in Shannon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_Airport
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NearMiss
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:10 pm

Maybe not that related, but in the early 90's here in Chile there was a "Copa Aeroflot", which was a Football tournament in which Colo Colo, Club Deportivo O'Higgins de Rancagua, Hungary's National Football team and FC Shinnik Yaroslavl from the Soviet Union played in Santiago and Rancagua.
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
iRISH251
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:26 pm

American 767 wrote:
This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.


Actually SU operated a separate SVO-SNN-SVO service with Tu-134s or Tu-154s - once or twice a week, I think. Later there was a LED-SNN-LED route for a while as well. Aeroflot did have traffic rights on SNN-MIA, which was attractive for Irish holidaymakers looking for a cheaper way of getting to Florida. As this was operated by an Il-62, it probably didn't tech-stop at YQX. There may also have been traffic rights to some of the other non-US destinations from SNN, though I don't think the demand would have been great.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:01 pm

I saw these and just couldn't resist....

All these photos are from Shannon, 1988/89. Those were the days.....

Eastbound meets westbound?

A very exposed Tu-154
Under tow to the Aer Rianta International hangar for painting in Aeroflot colours.
The a/c had earlier arrived from Tupolev with just a crew and KGB officer as escort onboard



More paintshop goodies;
The Il-62 is at Shannon after a lease to Air India.
And the freshly painted Tu-134 is looking really smart and on it's way home (with the ex AI Il-62 in the background behind it)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:05 pm

American 767 wrote:
This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN?


JFK was not the only destination. Growing up as a kid, I spent a lot of time commuting back and forth from SFO to SVO and back. Naturally, a lot of it was through SNN. It was a fun time, and a cool experience to have multiple stops along the way from California to Moscow. I have fond memories of the stops in Shannon. We always had to disembark, and then board again. But the time in between was spent shopping at the airport's Duty Free shop, a super popular pastime amongst Russians. I still think I have an Irish flute that I bought during one of the stops... it's laying around somewhere.
 
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OA260
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:28 pm

iRISH251 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
This bring me a question: When SU was flying through SNN for refueling between JFK and SVO, did any passenger embark or disembark in SNN? So in other words was one allowed by buy a ticket on SU just to fly, for example, JFK-SNN and back to JFK? I don't think so because I don't think that during communism SU had traffic rights between Western world countries, but still...just asking. I think that on the other hand SU would sell you, back then, a roundtrip ticket SVO-SNN-SVO, if you wanted to do that.


Actually SU operated a separate SVO-SNN-SVO service with Tu-134s or Tu-154s - once or twice a week, I think. Later there was a LED-SNN-LED route for a while as well. Aeroflot did have traffic rights on SNN-MIA, which was attractive for Irish holidaymakers looking for a cheaper way of getting to Florida. As this was operated by an Il-62, it probably didn't tech-stop at YQX. There may also have been traffic rights to some of the other non-US destinations from SNN, though I don't think the demand would have been great.


SNN-MIA was a gem of a route. J Class for IEP600 return. Also the SNN-HAV was popular too. I was lucky to fly out of SNN on the old SU good old days.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 7:31 pm

[quote="ghYHZ"]Growing up in Gander, Newfoundland……

I was in Goose Bay back in the early 80's and remember how the news was dominated for a time by Aeroflot wanting to bring in their own fuel for their airraft to refuel. It was one way of them saving money.
 
soups
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 8:32 pm

I still remember as a little kid in Accra, they use to fly their russian plane via sofia, tripoli, Sabha(i think), then either lome or niamey!
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
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eta unknown
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 10:26 pm

I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?
 
global2
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 11:02 pm

I seem to recall in the late 70s/early 80's that United Airlines was able to claim bragging rights for being the largest airline in the free world.

leftcoast8 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
during the Soviet regime Russian citizens were not allowed to leave the country


American 767 wrote:
And under the communist regime, no airline from the Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact countries were allowed to buy planes from the Western world.


A notable exception besides Romania was China (which was not a Warsaw Pact member but was still a communist state). PRC was not on good terms with the USSR after the Sino-Soviet Split. Mao was amazed by the 707 Air Force One that was used for Nixon's visit to the PRC in 1972. The Civil Aviation Administration of China ended up ordering ten 707s, with deliveries between 1973-74. CAAC would end up being a dedicated Boeing customer, acquiring three 747SPs, two 747-200s, five 767-200s (three being the -ER variant). Besides this, CAAC also had 41 Tridents, 10 BAe 146 aircraft, eight MD-82s, and five A310s ordered in the mid 80s. Before Nixon's visit, CAAC also had seven Vickers Viscount aircraft, delivered between 1963-1970. The Chinese government ordered four spare engines for each 707 order, but unlike the Soviet aircraft, the 707 engines were so dependable that a Boeing customer support engineer noted many of the spare engines were still in their crates fifteen years later. CAAC operated the Ilyushin Il-62 on routes to the USSR or Warsaw Pact countries.

The story of how TAROM got western aircraft is also very interesting. Richard Nixon gifted Nicolae Ceaușescu his personal Buick 225 Electra in order to curry favour with the Romanian government. TAROM's 707s didn't arrive until 1974, the order had to be done through political backchannels to avoid upsetting the Soviet Union. Ceaușescu refused to contribute to the 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, and Romania did not boycott the 1984 Summer Olympics either. Romania under Ceaușescu could almost have been considered a western ally.

Ethiopian Airlines under Mengistu Haile Mariam and the Derg also flew western aircraft, such as the Boeing 720.


Fantastic bits of history--thanks for sharing that. I once had a Buick Electra ('78). If Nixon had given me one as a gift I'd become his friend too! :lol:
 
dcajet
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Tue May 07, 2019 11:19 pm

luckyone wrote:
The IL-86 was notoriously over promised, overweight, underpowered, and desperately short on range. TATL crossings required at least one stop. Flights to Cuba often required two.


And 3 stops on the SVO-EZE route: SVO-ALG-SID-SSA-EZE... but with prices so attractive to connections all over Europe (including a stopover in Moscow with a city tour with Intourist) that together with LAP Air Paraguay, they were the airlines of choice for young Argentinians going to Europe on a budget in the 80s & early 90s.

Previous IL-62M flights routed SVO-BUD-DKR-EZE... only 2 stops.
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leleko747
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Wed May 08, 2019 12:35 am

eta unknown wrote:
I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?


Recife and Salvador had the Aeroflot IL-86, I believe it was for refuel indeed.
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
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PPVLC
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Wed May 08, 2019 12:51 am

eta unknown wrote:
I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?


I clearly remember Aeroflot's IL-86 in REC, I saw it there many times, their passengers had to disembark during the fueling
Cabin crew L188 707 727 737 767 A300 DC10 MD11 777 747
 
dcajet
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Wed May 08, 2019 2:10 am

leleko747 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
I think my favourite routing was at one point the longest flight (not nonstop) in the world: SVO-SCL via MLA, DKR, LIM and somewhere else, maybe Recife?


Recife and Salvador had the Aeroflot IL-86, I believe it was for refuel indeed.


Salvador was a tech stop for the IL-86 on its way to Buenos Aires.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: How big was Aeroflot in the 80's?

Wed May 08, 2019 8:40 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I saw these and just couldn't resist....

All these photos are from Shannon, 1988/89. Those were the days.....

Eastbound meets westbound?
[photoid]1494866[/photoid


AFAIR, it's approximately around this time that Pulkovo (LED) got transatlantic flights, by Il-86, with SNN stopovers. Whether those were LED-based, or "International division" (SVO-based) planes and crews, I don't know, but in addition to a typical spread of possible destinations to the west of SNN: USA, Cuba, South America; to the east of SNN, there was now more than one destination for SU planes -- SVO plus LED.
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