eielef
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A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 7:58 am

Much has been already discussed since yesteday, regarding the Aeroflot crash in Moscow, about people taking their hand luggage while evacuating the plane in an emergency. In emergencies, the manufacturer believes people will obey the crew and will not take luggage or sharp objects, like stilettos. But in the reality, seen not only in SU1492 but also in other recent flights (BA in Las Vegas, Asiana in San Francisco, and others), people do take their hand luggage with them during an evacuation. They don't believe that giving time and space for others to survive is as important as their iPads and other belongings.

On AVHearld, a comment by a user named Thomas states the following:
Due to my jobs, I am a frequent flyer in Germany since the early 80ties. Since then the price policy of the carriers has changed due to decreasing faires. Therefore everyone carries the maximum amount of hand luggage into the cabin.
Effect: Borading time has more than doubled. Deboarding time as well.
If only 10% or less of the pax are looking for their belongings during a real evacuation like this on..............
Eurowings and others make an announcement before landing: "In the unexspected case of an evacuation your hand luggage stays in the overhead compartments"
Solution: rise prices for a ticket and motivate people to board without big handluggage.
These are airplanes and no lorries.


I open this thread to start a debate on this. Not only on hand luggage on evacuations, that is deadly, but also hang luggage as now the rule, because airlines charge for standard checked luggage.

Cheers
Eielef @MOW
 
kevertje
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:01 am

Additionally KLM is considering changing the carry on rules anyway due to problems.

Reason is increase of delays due to the amount of carry on items since KLM started charging for checkin luggage.

In dutch :
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... -aanpakken
 
Geoff1947
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:02 am

It is obvious to me that passengers that want to bring their baggage into the cabin should pay more. The industry has got itself into a crazy situation with their pricing model being wrong. Passenger behaviour will be driven by pricing.

Geiff
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:04 am

My opinion:
On the SU1492 thread, someone suggested an emergency system to lock all the overhead bins, activated by the crew, in case of an emergency landing, which I'd like to add, could be used at all landings, because people tends to stand up and take their luggage before the aircraft has even stopped from the landing role. It could be a good idea. But the best idea was not allowing so many things (better: not allowing anything besides one very small item). And making checked luggage free of charge again.

Certainly, boarding is now a mess, takes much longer than before. Also leaving the plane. Because many times, people have their luggage in a different compartment than the place where they are seating, and that's due to A) There are a number of containers occupied with airline material or crew luggage, and B) there are more bags than seats in the plane. And is not only bags: you have tons of duty free products (including bottles, very fragile), you have coats (in winter), etc.
Larger items of hand luggage are often cause of delays in the boarding gate (because ground crew has to say it doesn't fit, and people always complains). And also on security inspection, which after 9/11 is well known for being slow, but now is slower.

Low cost carriers started charging for luggage in the late 1990s, so people decided to take hand luggage instead. But since 2015 approx, main airlines (in Europe) started charging also for luggage, and now they even do it intercontinentally since 2018 approx. Some people, few, defend this policy saying: now is cheaper to fly.

But the problem is: we have too many things inside of too small aircraft, too full of people, and the manufacturer (maybe) hasn't taken into account this situation when planning the evacuation of the aircraft...

Also, I believe airlines had often problem (still have) loosing luggage, or with stolen items (very common in Latin America). That's why they prefer people having all of their belongings with themselves: that means no responsibility. Also no responsibility if it doesn't fit, if it has items not allowed by the TSA, etc.

Some things will have to change, specially the screening process of luggage (a friend of mine, who was asked to send her hand luggage down, on a very busy FRA-BCN flight, was stolen over 15.000EUR of jewelry: the police @BCN didn't feel like filing a report, airline never paid anything...). And specially the speed on which luggage is delivered. But the technology is there, and airports are each day more efficient.

BAA spent 1bn GBP on the baggage system at LHR-T5, which is now not often used as most people has hand luggage! So it was a waste. But the system is there, and it could/should be used to the 100%.

Items of hand luggage, are not only uncomfortable (for crew and passengers) and create delays, loosing take off slots, BUT they (could) and now be considered deadly, as we see 41 people perished on a Russian airliner.
 
chonetsao
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:04 am

My concern is the speed of evacuation. Specifically, with airlines now put over 180 seats on B738 and 200 seats in A321, I think DOT and European authorities needs to think twice in certify such high density.

It is very good to educate people not to open the overhead to get personal possession while in safety demonstration. But let us face it, there are people simply can not be trusted in this case. There are always someone if not a small group of people would open the case to get their life savings while blocking other people from escaping a potentially deadly situation.

Thus, the authorities needs to run different test considering a small percentage of people would open the over head (let us say 10%) and also in the condition only half of the slides and door can be opened in case of damage, to see how long time the evacuation needed. And I think the number of seats of B738/A321 needs to scale back to guarantee safety in case of accident like the Aeroflot one.

Just my personal opinion.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:08 am

Yes, people do not deliberately think my personal items are more important than someone else’s life but it is human nature to take your things with you in an emergency.

There are people who will say “I would never do that, I would act like a cross between mother Theresa and James Bond in that situation” but the reality is that people don’t react like that.

There has been a potential solution to the problem by locking the overhead bins during takeoff and landing so that the Belongings can’t be got at but I would imagine that this would have the simple effect of someone taking 3 seconds to get their bag to someone frantically trying to open a locked bin for 10 seconds.

For me the only real solution is to not allow carryons anymore. I only take a carryon of my laptop if I’m in economy and have a spare seat next to me to do work or I’m in long haul business and want to work. If I don’t want to work I’ll just get drunk, I’ll die in my sleep...


Fred


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LAXBUR
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 am

The US has mass shootings and gun violence all day everyday. Crash landings are very rare, yet here we are discussing banning hand luggage after a single Incident. I’m not sure I want to live on a planet where people are trusted with guns, but not a bag.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:36 am

Geoff1947 wrote:
The industry has got itself into a crazy situation with their pricing model being wrong.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

The cargo bays are designed for the everything-but-kitchen-sink luggage regimens... the carryon bins are not.

I've always said it was crazy to charge for 1st-bag, but have carryon free.
Barring essentials (medication, baby food, etc) it should've been the other way around.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:52 am

I never really understood the difference between carry-on and 1st bag.

In a perfect world, everyone would have a small sized bagage in its overhead bin, and nothing under the front seat. This with strong Overhead bins locks (or even centralized locking activated by the FA if you have the money).

There i also a lot of work from the airline to gain customer confidence in baggage management, but again, if you have any valuable stuff, bring it with you in cabin.
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eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:00 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
I never really understood the difference between carry-on and 1st bag.

In a perfect world, everyone would have a small sized bagage in its overhead bin, and nothing under the front seat. This with strong Overhead bins locks (or even centralized locking activated by the FA if you have the money).

There i also a lot of work from the airline to gain customer confidence in baggage management, but again, if you have any valuable stuff, bring it with you in cabin.


Eventually, a complete robotic system will allow baggage handlers not to exist any more. The computer should know, on the available luggage, which goes first and which goes later, in which angle (a 3D system) to put it in the cargo containers, which will be locked, and eventually putted insider of the aircraft...
But sure, it will need some repairs the current system... Also, valuables, should be taken with the passenger. Say you are carrying a large amount of cash (10k U$S, the legal limit). Would you leave them on your backpack on the overhead bin while you are sleeping or in the toilet? I'd rather carry them with me at all times, in my pockets, e.g. Same with jewelry. Is not safe. And there are not many ways to make it safer!

I recall not long ago someone found a wallet in a plane toilet. It had fallen from a passenger's trouser while he/she was doing his/her things. So instead of asking the cabin attendants (as he didn't trust) he did some research, and using the photo of the ID, he found the passenger and gave it back. It was a nice gesture. I doubt is a common thing on aircraft, but well, it happened once!.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:04 am

Imho the first bag in the hold should always be free, but the carry-on should be strictly limited.

It is not only fire or evacuation, those heavy bags in the cabin are also a huge risk in turbulence. That is something authorities should regulate.
 
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777Jet
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:04 am

Humans will be humans. There will always be stupid humans that will go for something in the overhead bin during even the most time critical type of evacuation. This is being discussed on the news here in Australia and I can't believe I heard so dumb guy in aviation say "that would definitely not happen is Australia" - yeah right! 100% some idiot would do that. As long as humans have stuff in those bins some of them are going to hold up an evacuation and try to grab something. If I was a pax trying to evacuate and somebody in my way was placing my life and the lives of others at risk by blocking the aisle whilst they go for something in the bin I would literally push them to the ground, stomp over them, and then whoop their ass if I ever saw their face again.

Like others have said, maybe have lockable bins controlled by the crew like the 787 windows? Crew can press a button and all the bins stay locked, just like that!
Last edited by 777Jet on Mon May 06, 2019 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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flipdewaf
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:05 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
In a perfect world, everyone would have a small sized bagage in its overhead bin, and nothing under the front seat. This with strong Overhead bins locks (or even centralized locking activated by the FA if you have the money).


I don’t think locking the bin would really work, people would still try to open them and likely spend longer trying to open a locked bin than just getting a bag from an unlocked one. Remember people don’t act logically in a panic.

Fred


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bennett123
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:05 am

There is room under the seat.

Do not put valuables in the overhead locker.

If your valuables will not fit then you will probably be on Netjets anyway.
 
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777Jet
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:08 am

flipdewaf wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
In a perfect world, everyone would have a small sized bagage in its overhead bin, and nothing under the front seat. This with strong Overhead bins locks (or even centralized locking activated by the FA if you have the money).


I don’t think locking the bin would really work, people would still try to open them and likely spend longer trying to open a locked bin than just getting a bag from an unlocked one. Remember people don’t act logically in a panic.


Have a kind of red light (red for NO) on the handle and make it send out an electric shock if you touch it, just not enough of shock to kill somebody on the spot :shock:
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xmp125a
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:10 am

kevertje wrote:
Additionally KLM is considering changing the carry on rules anyway due to problems.

Reason is increase of delays due to the amount of carry on items since KLM started charging for checkin luggage.

In dutch :
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... -aanpakken


Airlines made that problem by charging for checked luggage, they should solve it too. When EasyJet allowed any weight as carry on (could be any weight as long as you can lift it to the overhead bin) I've seen really ridiculous examples of people trying to put 20 kilo suitcases up there. It is wrong, it affects flight safety - imagine if overhead locker opens in turbulence and 15 kg suitcase ends up on your head. Now EasyJet has more reasonable policy, but it always pisses me off when I cannot put my small bag (rucksack a size of school bag and weighting 3-4 kg) anywhere near because whole compartment meant for like 6 people is occupied by two very large pieces of luggage.

It is about time something is done, not only because of evacuation.
 
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GCT64
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:10 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:
The industry has got itself into a crazy situation with their pricing model being wrong.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

The cargo bays are designed for the everything-but-kitchen-sink luggage regimens... the carryon bins are not.

I've always said it was crazy to charge for 1st-bag, but have carryon free.
Barring essentials (medication, baby food, etc) it should've been the other way around.


Passenger behaviour is definitely driven by pricing, but it is exasperated in many countries by the airline's unwillingness to apply their own carry-on rules. Having said that, people even opening bins for one small carry-on will significantly slow an evacuation.

The comment above about the large number of US deaths from guns is valid and suggests that most people don't really care about other people's lives versus their own convenience and desires.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
ltbewr
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:12 am

Many of us have seen video and still pictures how evacuating survivors in a number of crashes are bringing their carry ons with them possibly impeding the ability for people to evacuate in a timely fashion for their safety. A combination of human nature, fees for checked bags, fears of mishandled or theft checked bags or their contents, fare pricing competition, more packed flights on smaller planes, what may be the need to have critical papers, medicine and medical equipment as well as electronic equipment needed with them that would be difficult to recover if lost in a crash. There has also been the rise in the numbers of borderline fake 'service animals' brought onto a plane due to fees and health of the animals pax want to bring with them. So, what should be done to reduce the risks in evacuations from persons bringing on their carry ons with them.

As others have suggested, evacuation drills need to be done on aircraft, including using smoke to simulate potential real-life evacuations on 'full' flights with progressive percentages of pax trying to bring carryons with them. If lets say if at 30% the evacuation with some exits blocked is taking over 90 seconds, then it is a failure to pass the test.

Mandate by law that airline must allow 1 free checked standard size bag on all flights domestic and international and with moderate fees for a 2nd bag.

Strictly limit the size and quantity of bags brought on a plane. Overstuffed carryons, must be limited from entering the cabin.

Ban 'duty free' alcohol from being carried on by a pax, it is taken with a receipt given as enter the plane or at the gate and put into a special place and given to you when you leave the plane.

Educate people to have on their person, not in their carryon, critical papers, money, credit cards, drugs, smartphones and even jewelry. I use for international flights a neck pouch with my passport, money, necessary papers and in my pocket my phone on me and not in my carry on or checked bag.

Make it very seriously clear in safety videos and instructions that if an evacuation one is to leave their stuff on board.

Shame and civically penalize with fines persons who bring significant carryon with them in evacuations.

Improve the security and processing of checked bags so fewer will not check bags due to delays in getting their bags and are properly transferred.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:13 am

flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t think locking the bin would really work, people would still try to open them and likely spend longer trying to open a locked bin than just getting a bag from an unlocked one. Remember people don’t act logically in a panic.


Good point, but at least there will be no baggages in the alley.

We can even imagine a bin without visible physical interface to avoid the instinctive gesture of scaried passenger. I am sure a lot of things can be done.

This kind of problems not only appear during catastrophic evacuations. I witnessed a flight were a bin opened during takeoff and the pax under it had to use his cane to avoid the fall of a suitcase.
Last edited by LaunchDetected on Mon May 06, 2019 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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xmp125a
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:13 am

eielef wrote:
Some things will have to change, specially the screening process of luggage (a friend of mine, who was asked to send her hand luggage down, on a very busy FRA-BCN flight, was stolen over 15.000EUR of jewelry: the police @BCN didn't feel like filing a report, airline never paid anything...).


Very simple: never put small expensive items in big heavy bags. It was your friends fault: she should put her jewelry into small lightweight cabin bag and check the rest. What you have presented is really really bad argument and only shows how cheap some people are. 15K worth of jewelry ... she could probably checked one bag more.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:14 am

777Jet wrote:
Humans will be humans. There will always be stupid humans that will go for something in the overhead bin during even the most time critical type of evacuation. This is being discussed on the news here in Australia and I can't believe I heard so dumb guy in aviation say "that would definitely not happen is Australia" - yeah right! 100% some idiot would do that. As long as humans have stuff in those bins some of them are going to hold up an evacuation and try to grab something. If I was a pax trying to evacuate and somebody in my way was placing my life and the lives of others at risk by blocking the aisle whilst they go for something in the bin I would literally push them to the ground, stomp over them, and then whoop their ass if I ever saw their face again.


So let me get this straight, you are laughing at the tv because they said nothing would happen like that in Australia and of course it would because Australians are human too but yet it definitely wouldn’t happen to you? Are you not human?

777Jet wrote:
Like others have said, maybe have lockable bins controlled by the crew like the 787 windows? Crew can press a button and all the bins stay locked, just like that!
if logic isn’t what is driving decision in these circumstances, don’t try to logic them out.

Fred



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777Jet
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:16 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t think locking the bin would really work, people would still try to open them and likely spend longer trying to open a locked bin than just getting a bag from an unlocked one. Remember people don’t act logically in a panic.


Good point, but at least there will be no baggages in the alley.



The bag in the aisle they are playing with is even a bigger threat. If they are just standing up in the upward reaching / side facing position to open the bin they can easily be pushed aside into a row.
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xmp125a
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:18 am

flipdewaf wrote:
For me the only real solution is to not allow carryons anymore.


In good old times, the carry on bag was limited to 5 or 8 kg and pretty small footprint. I still have two "regulation carry on" bags somewhere at home. Basically the carry on limit has to be so small, that the person simply cannot fit together expensive/personal items (medicines, passports, money) AND clothes and bulky items. So expensive or important items should be in hand luggage, the heavy ones in the cargo hold. It worked for decades and then the system was torn apart by low-cost carriers.
 
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777Jet
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:19 am

flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Humans will be humans. There will always be stupid humans that will go for something in the overhead bin during even the most time critical type of evacuation. This is being discussed on the news here in Australia and I can't believe I heard so dumb guy in aviation say "that would definitely not happen is Australia" - yeah right! 100% some idiot would do that. As long as humans have stuff in those bins some of them are going to hold up an evacuation and try to grab something. If I was a pax trying to evacuate and somebody in my way was placing my life and the lives of others at risk by blocking the aisle whilst they go for something in the bin I would literally push them to the ground, stomp over them, and then whoop their ass if I ever saw their face again.


So let me get this straight, you are laughing at the tv because they said nothing would happen like that in Australia and of course it would because Australians are human too but yet it definitely wouldn’t happen to you? Are you not human?


Who said it definitely wouldn't happen to me??? How did you come up with that???
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Bobloblaw
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:20 am

Charge for cabin luggage and free checked luggage.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:21 am

flipdewaf wrote:
if logic isn’t what is driving decision in these circumstances, don’t try to logic them out.


That's the point of a whole discipline named "cognitive ergonomics".

The same work is done to design aircraft cockpits and improve the awareness of the crew during emergency situations.
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flipdewaf
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:29 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
if logic isn’t what is driving decision in these circumstances, don’t try to logic them out.


That's the point of a whole discipline named "cognitive ergonomics". The same work is done to design aircraft cockpits and imrpove the awareness of the crew during emergency situations.

Absolutely right, there are fields of expertise in these things and it is used all the time. I’m sure it is applied to emergency situations in aircraft already.

I work in the food manufacturing industry and have developed some facilities in my time. As you can expect hand washing is a very important part of the job for the workers on the line and whilst there are many ways to encourage people to wash their hands (training, warnings, posters, cctv even firing repeat offenders) the most effective way to make sure it’s completed is to put a barrier next to the sink so that progress is slowed when they get there, next step is to make it a quiet place so people automatically slow down and the next piece is to put something (anything) to read just above the sink so they longer whilst they do a good job. Make people do it right almost by accident.

Fred


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YIMBY
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:31 am

seahawk wrote:
Imho the first bag in the hold should always be free, but the carry-on should be strictly limited.

It is not only fire or evacuation, those heavy bags in the cabin are also a huge risk in turbulence. That is something authorities should regulate.


This is another important issue. And not only turbulence, in hard landing or crash the heaviest bags will certainly fly down on someone's head. Today only the shortest can take the official brace positions, while the normal-sized will have their heads above the seat backs in any case.

I would allow only soft handbag/backbag etc and absolutely no
- hard bags
- trolleys
- bottles
in the cabin.

The overhead bins should be compartised so that one's carry on luggage must fit in the compartment belonging to the seat.

Of course, airlines and airports must do their share to make sure that all the luggage arrives in time.
(Could the luggage be classified as first class and second class bags. First bag in first way would be first class, while the second bag on that route and all bags on the return would be second class, unless the passenger pays extra. The second class bags would be left if the plane is full.)
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:31 am

777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Humans will be humans. There will always be stupid humans that will go for something in the overhead bin during even the most time critical type of evacuation. This is being discussed on the news here in Australia and I can't believe I heard so dumb guy in aviation say "that would definitely not happen is Australia" - yeah right! 100% some idiot would do that. As long as humans have stuff in those bins some of them are going to hold up an evacuation and try to grab something. If I was a pax trying to evacuate and somebody in my way was placing my life and the lives of others at risk by blocking the aisle whilst they go for something in the bin I would literally push them to the ground, stomp over them, and then whoop their ass if I ever saw their face again.


So let me get this straight, you are laughing at the tv because they said nothing would happen like that in Australia and of course it would because Australians are human too but yet it definitely wouldn’t happen to you? Are you not human?


Who said it definitely wouldn't happen to me??? How did you come up with that???

How do you know you aren’t that idiot?

Fred


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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:34 am

YIMBY wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Imho the first bag in the hold should always be free, but the carry-on should be strictly limited.

It is not only fire or evacuation, those heavy bags in the cabin are also a huge risk in turbulence. That is something authorities should regulate.


This is another important issue. And not only turbulence, in hard landing or crash the heaviest bags will certainly fly down on someone's head. Today only the shortest can take the official brace positions, while the normal-sized will have their heads above the seat backs in any case.

I would allow only soft handbag/backbag etc and absolutely no
- hard bags
- trolleys
- bottles
in the cabin.

The overhead bins should be compartised so that one's carry on luggage must fit in the compartment belonging to the seat.

Of course, airlines and airports must do their share to make sure that all the luggage arrives in time.
(Could the luggage be classified as first class and second class bags. First bag in first way would be first class, while the second bag on that route and all bags on the return would be second class, unless the passenger pays extra. The second class bags would be left if the plane is full.)


:checkmark: :checkmark: Fully agree with you.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:43 am

YIMBY wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Imho the first bag in the hold should always be free, but the carry-on should be strictly limited.

It is not only fire or evacuation, those heavy bags in the cabin are also a huge risk in turbulence. That is something authorities should regulate.


This is another important issue. And not only turbulence, in hard landing or crash the heaviest bags will certainly fly down on someone's head. Today only the shortest can take the official brace positions, while the normal-sized will have their heads above the seat backs in any case.

I would allow only soft handbag/backbag etc and absolutely no
- hard bags
- trolleys
- bottles
in the cabin.

The overhead bins should be compartised so that one's carry on luggage must fit in the compartment belonging to the seat.

Of course, airlines and airports must do their share to make sure that all the luggage arrives in time.
(Could the luggage be classified as first class and second class bags. First bag in first way would be first class, while the second bag on that route and all bags on the return would be second class, unless the passenger pays extra. The second class bags would be left if the plane is full.)


Maybe airport design in the world should abolish Duty Free for alcohol on departure, instead to force people buy items on arrival and custom can enforce its own rules on arrival easier.
 
eielef
Topic Author
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 10:03 am

xmp125a wrote:
eielef wrote:
Some things will have to change, specially the screening process of luggage (a friend of mine, who was asked to send her hand luggage down, on a very busy FRA-BCN flight, was stolen over 15.000EUR of jewelry: the police @BCN didn't feel like filing a report, airline never paid anything...).


Very simple: never put small expensive items in big heavy bags. It was your friends fault: she should put her jewelry into small lightweight cabin bag and check the rest. What you have presented is really really bad argument and only shows how cheap some people are. 15K worth of jewelry ... she could probably checked one bag more.


This is not so. She checked her bag (23kg) and had a cabin sized piece of hand luggage. But she was among the last to board (she was over 80, recently died) and they told her there was no more space on board, she had to put it down. This was told to her in the jetbridge. What else could she do? She followed orders... And they stole her miserably... This was the time where Lufthansa allowed free checked luggage still...
 
ELBOB
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:56 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 10:26 am

Paying for a cabin bag isn't a solution; I know some photographers who refuse to fly any more with their kit after the airlines said "sorry, no room; we'll refund you the fee". Which isn't any use when a bag contains $10,000+ of equipment.

I also read a story about one photographer who responded quickly and hung as many cameras and big white lenses around his neck as he could bear; his empty bag was then put in the hold. Which just shows the rigid stupidity of the system, he'd be more of a danger in an evacuation than if it was all in his bag.

Oddly enough, there's always enough room for the cabin crew's bags. So they can sprint off to the hotel whilst the plebs who pay their wages are stuck at the carousel.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 10:53 am

flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

So let me get this straight, you are laughing at the tv because they said nothing would happen like that in Australia and of course it would because Australians are human too but yet it definitely wouldn’t happen to you? Are you not human?


Who said it definitely wouldn't happen to me??? How did you come up with that???

How do you know you aren’t that idiot?


I know that I won't be going for anything in the bin because I never use the bin; I only take a small bag that always fits under the seat in front where I prefer it anyway.

Regardless, I know I wouldn't go for the bin even if I had something in it...

Are you telling me that you don't know yourself well enough to rule yourself out as being one of those idiots???
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
77H
Posts: 1460
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:01 am

Apologies in advance for being so blunt but if someone was slowing down the line to get their luggage in an emergency they’re getting clocked, end of story.

This issue with people taking their carryon’s with them has played out over and over again. We talk about it for a while then it dies down. Unfortunately passengers taking carryon’s during an emergency is the norm not the exception. It’s time for the regulators to step up and make some changes.

1) my understanding is that most commercial aircraft have to be completely evacuated in 60-90 seconds to receive certification. I think those figures are unrealistic. For starters I’d imagine it assumes all exit doors/windows are usable. Additionally, I imagine when they do cert tests all the participants are able bodied and obviously uninjured. In an emergency you will likely have injured people as well as those with disabilities or even just elderly people who cannot move as quick. Another thing is state of mind. In simulations all the participants know they’re simulating an emergency and thus mentally prepared. Additionally, they know they are not in real danger. In a real emergency people will be panicked and not thinking clearly. Under these circumstances I think the expectation that everyone evacuates in 1-1.5 minutes is unreasonable.

I think regulators need to push to increase exits doors/windows and reverse this push to remove exits to allow for more seats, aka the 321 NEO ACF.

2) As others have said upthread, overhead bin locking mechanisms seem like an effective way to keep people from impeding evacuations trying to retrieve luggage. I’m just it will add weight and additional costs in maintenance over time but if it saves lives it’s worth it.

3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.

77H
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2889
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:07 am

777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:

Who said it definitely wouldn't happen to me??? How did you come up with that???

How do you know you aren’t that idiot?


I know that I won't be going for anything in the bin because I never use the bin; I only take a small bag that always fits under the seat in front where I prefer it anyway.

Regardless, I know I wouldn't go for the bin even if I had something in it...

Are you telling me that you don't know yourself well enough to rule yourself out as being one of those idiots???
thats absolutely what I’m telling you and I’m sure that 99% of people who take their luggage off the plane would say the same as you. What makes you special?

Fred



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User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8704
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:10 am

77H wrote:
Apologies in advance for being so blunt but if someone was slowing down the line to get their luggage in an emergency they’re getting clocked, end of story.

This issue with people taking their carryon’s with them has played out over and over again. We talk about it for a while then it dies down. Unfortunately passengers taking carryon’s during an emergency is the norm not the exception. It’s time for the regulators to step up and make some changes.

1) my understanding is that most commercial aircraft have to be completely evacuated in 60-90 seconds to receive certification. I think those figures are unrealistic. For starters I’d imagine it assumes all exit doors/windows are usable. Additionally, I imagine when they do cert tests all the participants are able bodied and obviously uninjured. In an emergency you will likely have injured people as well as those with disabilities or even just elderly people who cannot move as quick. Another thing is state of mind. In simulations all the participants know they’re simulating an emergency and thus mentally prepared. Additionally, they know they are not in real danger. In a real emergency people will be panicked and not thinking clearly. Under these circumstances I think the expectation that everyone evacuates in 1-1.5 minutes is unreasonable.

I think regulators need to push to increase exits doors/windows and reverse this push to remove exits to allow for more seats, aka the 321 NEO ACF.

2) As others have said upthread, overhead bin locking mechanisms seem like an effective way to keep people from impeding evacuations trying to retrieve luggage. I’m just it will add weight and additional costs in maintenance over time but if it saves lives it’s worth it.

3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.

77H


1) only 50% of the doors can be used, the selection is random in the test

2) any locking mechanism would fail in crash

3) If I have a bag next to my feet, picking it up is faster and easier for everybody compared to leaving it behind

If you want to regulate something.

a) one free piece of baggage in the hold as standard

b) strong limitation on the size and weight of the carry on
 
uta999
Posts: 739
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:12 am

All bags should be taken from the passengers, just as they board the aircraft, and loaded into the hold.

These days with 95% of people having a smartphone, it would be easy to match traveller with their bag on landing, beside the aircraft. This still avoids the airport baggage system at both ends for most.

Loading and deplaning is always slow because the aisle is blocked by people getting their bag from the bins above, with some wasting several minutes each, because their bag is a few rows back or too heavy for them.

All bags should travel in the hold. That’s the way aviation travel was designed back in the day.
Your computer just got better
 
xmp125a
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:18 am

eielef wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
eielef wrote:
Some things will have to change, specially the screening process of luggage (a friend of mine, who was asked to send her hand luggage down, on a very busy FRA-BCN flight, was stolen over 15.000EUR of jewelry: the police @BCN didn't feel like filing a report, airline never paid anything...).


Very simple: never put small expensive items in big heavy bags. It was your friends fault: she should put her jewelry into small lightweight cabin bag and check the rest. What you have presented is really really bad argument and only shows how cheap some people are. 15K worth of jewelry ... she could probably checked one bag more.


This is not so. She checked her bag (23kg) and had a cabin sized piece of hand luggage. But she was among the last to board (she was over 80, recently died) and they told her there was no more space on board, she had to put it down. This was told to her in the jetbridge. What else could she do? She followed orders... And they stole her miserably... This was the time where Lufthansa allowed free checked luggage still...


Then yes, she was one of the people who are on the receiving end of the "free cabin luggage" nonsense, and the key to this is to put hard limit on size of carry on bags. For me, the situation where crew starts rerouting cabin luggage to the hold because everyone has so many cabin bags is absurd. Capacity of overhead bins is known and airlines should take this into the account, so ALL pax may bring their regulation size cabin luggage on board.
 
twicearound
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:20 am

ELBOB wrote:
Paying for a cabin bag isn't a solution; I know some photographers who refuse to fly any more with their kit after the airlines said "sorry, no room; we'll refund you the fee". Which isn't any use when a bag contains $10,000+ of equipment.

I also read a story about one photographer who responded quickly and hung as many cameras and big white lenses around his neck as he could bear; his empty bag was then put in the hold. Which just shows the rigid stupidity of the system, he'd be more of a danger in an evacuation than if it was all in his bag.

Oddly enough, there's always enough room for the cabin crew's bags. So they can sprint off to the hotel whilst the plebs who pay their wages are stuck at the carousel.


The crew have to come first. Their bags are part and parcel with them.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2889
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:24 am

777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:

I know that I won't be going for anything in the bin because I never use the bin; I only take a small bag that always fits under the seat in front where I prefer it anyway.

Regardless, I know I wouldn't go for the bin even if I had something in it...

Are you telling me that you don't know yourself well enough to rule yourself out as being one of those idiots???
thats absolutely what I’m telling you and I’m sure that 99% of people who take their luggage off the plane would say the same as you. What makes you special?


The opposite of what makes you special ed?

I don’t understand your comment. I haven’t declared I would behave in a different way to how people have been shown to behave in crashes but you have, what do you believe you will behave differently?


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77H
Posts: 1460
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:29 am

seahawk wrote:
77H wrote:
Apologies in advance for being so blunt but if someone was slowing down the line to get their luggage in an emergency they’re getting clocked, end of story.

This issue with people taking their carryon’s with them has played out over and over again. We talk about it for a while then it dies down. Unfortunately passengers taking carryon’s during an emergency is the norm not the exception. It’s time for the regulators to step up and make some changes.

1) my understanding is that most commercial aircraft have to be completely evacuated in 60-90 seconds to receive certification. I think those figures are unrealistic. For starters I’d imagine it assumes all exit doors/windows are usable. Additionally, I imagine when they do cert tests all the participants are able bodied and obviously uninjured. In an emergency you will likely have injured people as well as those with disabilities or even just elderly people who cannot move as quick. Another thing is state of mind. In simulations all the participants know they’re simulating an emergency and thus mentally prepared. Additionally, they know they are not in real danger. In a real emergency people will be panicked and not thinking clearly. Under these circumstances I think the expectation that everyone evacuates in 1-1.5 minutes is unreasonable.

I think regulators need to push to increase exits doors/windows and reverse this push to remove exits to allow for more seats, aka the 321 NEO ACF.

2) As others have said upthread, overhead bin locking mechanisms seem like an effective way to keep people from impeding evacuations trying to retrieve luggage. I’m just it will add weight and additional costs in maintenance over time but if it saves lives it’s worth it.

3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.

77H


1) only 50% of the doors can be used, the selection is random in the test

2) any locking mechanism would fail in crash

3) If I have a bag next to my feet, picking it up is faster and easier for everybody compared to leaving it behind

If you want to regulate something.

a) one free piece of baggage in the hold as standard

b) strong limitation on the size and weight of the carry on


Thanks for correcting me on the cert tests. Though again, I’d say there are so many aspects of a real emergency that could never be replicated in a simulation test. To me those aspects need to be considered.

I’m sure in a violent crash the locks would fail but short of massive structural damage I don’t see why they would. They’d especially come in handy for fires, like the AA 763 incident at ORD.

I don’t see how picking up something from the floor storage area underneath the seat would be helpful rather than an impediment? Imagine if everyone who had something under the seat had your mentality. That’s inevitably going to delay evacuation as people rummage around trying to grab items under the seat.
Is this worth increasing the likelihood some people don’t make it out in time?

77H
 
Bhoy
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
Charge for cabin luggage and free checked luggage.

people who've paid for that carry-on will be even more determined to take it off with them. Reverse psychology.
 
User avatar
MalcolmInTheMoM
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:32 am

Carry on baggage wouldn't be such a problem in evacuations if the safety demonstration included a line about leaving all objects behind. Some airlines do this, but not all of them and it's something that's easy to do that could partly remedy this phenomenon. Of course people like to ignore instructions but we're told how to use the seatbelt for the very same reason.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8704
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:37 am

77H wrote:
seahawk wrote:
77H wrote:
Apologies in advance for being so blunt but if someone was slowing down the line to get their luggage in an emergency they’re getting clocked, end of story.

This issue with people taking their carryon’s with them has played out over and over again. We talk about it for a while then it dies down. Unfortunately passengers taking carryon’s during an emergency is the norm not the exception. It’s time for the regulators to step up and make some changes.

1) my understanding is that most commercial aircraft have to be completely evacuated in 60-90 seconds to receive certification. I think those figures are unrealistic. For starters I’d imagine it assumes all exit doors/windows are usable. Additionally, I imagine when they do cert tests all the participants are able bodied and obviously uninjured. In an emergency you will likely have injured people as well as those with disabilities or even just elderly people who cannot move as quick. Another thing is state of mind. In simulations all the participants know they’re simulating an emergency and thus mentally prepared. Additionally, they know they are not in real danger. In a real emergency people will be panicked and not thinking clearly. Under these circumstances I think the expectation that everyone evacuates in 1-1.5 minutes is unreasonable.

I think regulators need to push to increase exits doors/windows and reverse this push to remove exits to allow for more seats, aka the 321 NEO ACF.

2) As others have said upthread, overhead bin locking mechanisms seem like an effective way to keep people from impeding evacuations trying to retrieve luggage. I’m just it will add weight and additional costs in maintenance over time but if it saves lives it’s worth it.

3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.

77H


1) only 50% of the doors can be used, the selection is random in the test

2) any locking mechanism would fail in crash

3) If I have a bag next to my feet, picking it up is faster and easier for everybody compared to leaving it behind

If you want to regulate something.

a) one free piece of baggage in the hold as standard

b) strong limitation on the size and weight of the carry on


Thanks for correcting me on the cert tests. Though again, I’d say there are so many aspects of a real emergency that could never be replicated in a simulation test. To me those aspects need to be considered.

I’m sure in a violent crash the locks would fail but short of massive structural damage I don’t see why they would. They’d especially come in handy for fires, like the AA 763 incident at ORD.

I don’t see how picking up something from the floor storage area underneath the seat would be helpful rather than an impediment? Imagine if everyone who had something under the seat had your mentality. That’s inevitably going to delay evacuation as people rummage around trying to grab items under the seat.
Is this worth increasing the likelihood some people don’t make it out in time?

77H


If we assume that the bag did actually fit under the seat you are right, in my experience most bags do not. And my travel rucksack is usually barely filled and light, so that I can easily pull it to my lap within a second. The straps though would be risk for any person trying to leave the row, if the bag would be left in place.

In the end I think one piece of carry on no larger than 30x30x45cm and not heavier than 4kg should all that is allowed and that rule would solve the problem just fine, because suddenly there would be space to correctly store the carry-on and people with fragile items would not need to fear that they are smashed by 15kg trolleys in the overhead bins.
Last edited by seahawk on Mon May 06, 2019 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:40 am

flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
thats absolutely what I’m telling you and I’m sure that 99% of people who take their luggage off the plane would say the same as you. What makes you special?


The opposite of what makes you special ed?

I don’t understand your comment.


I know...

flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
thats absolutely what I’m telling you and I’m sure that 99% of people who take their luggage off the plane would say the same as you. What makes you special?


The opposite of what makes you special ed?

I haven’t declared I would behave in a different way to how people have been shown to behave in crashes but you have, what do you believe you will behave differently?


How some people have been shown to behave in crashes. Not all people. I will behave like those who leave their personal items behind and GTF out of there asap. I will be pushing anybody out of my way if need be. My hands will be empty unless I'm holding onto my wife. If you think you might delay yourself and others whilst you search through the bins, especially as an avgeek, then you are not very bright. I will be like the Americans leaving the titanic, not the British who queued and died...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
xdlx
Posts: 943
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:41 am

Do you imagine if the overhead bins where ELIMINATED. In my opinion this is the solution, if you bring a carryon you should have to put under seat in front of you ONLY! I guarantee this will begin the change needed to resolve this problem.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 11:46 am

It's the pricing of checked luggage obviously. I still can't believe people are bringing actual suitcases on-board and putting them in the overhead bins. On-board should be backpack / purse maximum.

Also overcrowding of airplanes. Minimum pitch should be regulated. I often find myself in the window or middle seat thinking that if something goes wrong during takeoff or landing and the person next to me somehow becomes incapacitated there would be no way for me to get to the aisle in the middle. Barely being able to slide into your seat is not good enough, regulators should require enough pitch to allow passengers to slide out of their seat over the knees of another passenger.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 2889
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:04 pm

777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:

The opposite of what makes you special ed?

I don’t understand your comment.


I know...

flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:

The opposite of what makes you special ed?

I haven’t declared I would behave in a different way to how people have been shown to behave in crashes but you have, what do you believe you will behave differently?


How some people have been shown to behave in crashes. Not all people. I will behave like those who leave their personal items behind and GTF out of there asap. I will be pushing anybody out of my way if need be. My hands will be empty unless I'm holding onto my wife. If you think you might delay yourself and others whilst you search through the bins, especially as an avgeek, then you are not very bright. I will be like the Americans leaving the titanic, not the British who queued and died...

I’m not asserting how you would or would not behave, you or I might well behave in a number of different ways, as others do, some leave bags and some don’t. You have asserted that you would behave in a particular way and then proceeded not to back it up with any evidence. You do know that most people when asked believe they have above average driving skills don’t you?

Are you also the good guy with a gun? Lol.

Fred


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max999
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

This is a hard problem to solve because there will always be people who take stuff with them during an evacuation. Just like there are people who try to smoke on airplanes when it's so clearly prohibited on almost every commercial flight. Some people here have proposed locking overhead bins, but people can still carry the things stored underneath their seats with them during an evacuation.

Airlines can help fix this problem by incentivizing people to bring only smaller items into the cabin. Even if people take their things during an evacuation, smaller items would mean a potentially safer and quicker exit. In order to incentivize this, airlines would need to start charging for cabin bags.

But I think airlines would be loath to charge money for cabin bags because it will upset their most important and profitable customers: the business traveler. Business travelers value speed, efficiency, and productivity; they want their travel experience to be fast and want to get on and off the plane quickly. They want as much productive time as possible so the whole luggage check in and luggage retrieval process is a waste of time. I speak from personal experience as I used to be a frequent business traveler; this group relies on cabin luggage the most.

I don't think airlines are going to change the rules of cabin bags because they don't want to upset business travelers. So the status quo will remain.
Last edited by max999 on Mon May 06, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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