Northwest1988
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60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Fri May 17, 2019 7:58 pm

Don’t know if this has been posted in one of the other forums... What do you think?

https://youtu.be/QytfYyHmxtc
 
speedbird52
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Fri May 17, 2019 8:06 pm

The information they have is okay, but the dramatization and voyeuristic usage of a families grief was tasteless. You could say they were trying to show the human effect of the accident, but the music, editing, and narration say otherwise. They have a clear narrative, and are not open to alternative possibilities. Additionally, the way they present the facts slightly twists the story. Maybe I am the one wrong here, but to my knowledge MCAS only exists to make the MAX behave like an NG in a stall. As for airplanes overriding pilot input, Airbus does it all the time, they just do it right.
 
BillyD
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Fri May 17, 2019 8:44 pm

OMG!!! They way they have over dramatized the 737MAX, it's a death trap that no matter what Boeing does, another issue will creep up and kill more people.
 
NationalDC10
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 2:57 am

It was factually valid and without bias. My heart goes out to the families. Particularly chilling were the comments from the AA pilot and his description of what the final moments must have been like for passengers on both flights. I have never been so disgusted with a company. Grateful Delta saw the MAX for what it is...an old design pushed past it's abilities with engines too powerful in a desperate attempt catch Airbus. You couldn't tell the pilots about MCAS because you didn't want them to be burdened? Voluntary manslaughter in the least some would say murder.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 3:43 am

Boeing was just trying to make a quick buck but they sold a bad plane
 
AApilot2b
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 4:17 am

Garbage show. Absolutely garbage dramatization and fallacy.
 
n7371f
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 4:58 am

Give me a break.

Typical TV journalism vs print. Garbage.

NationalDC10 wrote:
It was factually valid and without bias. My heart goes out to the families. Particularly chilling were the comments from the AA pilot and his description of what the final moments must have been like for passengers on both flights. I have never been so disgusted with a company. Grateful Delta saw the MAX for what it is...an old design pushed past it's abilities with engines too powerful in a desperate attempt catch Airbus. You couldn't tell the pilots about MCAS because you didn't want them to be burdened? Voluntary manslaughter in the least some would say murder.
 
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zeke
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 5:31 am

Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization and fallacy" etc. I watched the program, the technical aspects seemed accurate to me, some heavy industry heavy weights involved.

The opinions expressed by the pilots, Dominic Gates etc seemed reasonable. The American Airlines 737 Captain pilot showed his ipad conversion course etc and his personal recollection of his meeting with Boeing being the representative of the American Pilots Union.. The interview with Flightglobal's operations & safety editor David Learmount seemed reasonable. Chris Brady is a very respected 737 pilot, best part of 20 years on type, including hundreds of hours of flight testing. , His 737 Technical Guide and website at www.b737.org.uk is the go to site for many 737 pilots. His simulator demonstrations seemed reasonable, with the obvious omission of the noisy stick shaker. Peter Lemme, FAA DER, former Boeing avionics engineer.

These are solid people in industry.

First time I had seen some of the crash site footage shown.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Virtual737
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 6:14 am

zeke wrote:
Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization and fallacy" etc. I watched the program, the technical aspects seemed accurate to me, some heavy industry heavy weights involved.


It didn't make it clear that Boeing's design was not an important factor in the crashes and that they would never have happened in the US.
 
bgm
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 6:35 am

Virtual737 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization and fallacy" etc. I watched the program, the technical aspects seemed accurate to me, some heavy industry heavy weights involved.


It didn't make it clear that Boeing's design was not an important factor in the crashes and that they would never have happened in the US.


Luck is the only reason why it didn't happen in the US. If you think your pilots are some kind of infallible Gods, you are in for a rude surprise.
Sweet Home Talibama.
 
N809FR
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 6:41 am

Oh hey look, no mention about the Ethiopian crew being way over speed and then reengaging stabilizer trim. Funny how that gets left out. Thought this was a garbage report, only interesting bit was the crash site videos.
 
FlyDeltaJetsATL
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 7:06 am

There were links to this episode in other threads.

NationalDC10 wrote:
Particularly chilling were the comments from the AA pilot and his description of what the final moments must have been like for passengers on both flights.


This!

He was not acting; he was really emotional. Sad to see but glad to see his passion for safely flying passengers.

zeke wrote:
The opinions expressed by the pilots, Dominic Gates etc seemed reasonable. The American Airlines 737 Captain pilot showed his ipad conversion course etc and his personal recollection of his meeting with Boeing being the representative of the American Pilots Union.. The interview with Flightglobal's operations & safety editor David Learmount seemed reasonable. Chris Brady is a very respected 737 pilot, best part of 20 years on type, including hundreds of hours of flight testing. , His 737 Technical Guide and website at www.b737.org.uk is the go to site for many 737 pilots. His simulator demonstrations seemed reasonable, with the obvious omission of the noisy stick shaker. Peter Lemme, FAA DER, former Boeing avionics engineer.

These are solid people in industry.


Very true.

AApilot2b wrote:
Garbage show. Absolutely garbage dramatization and fallacy.


Garbage plane. I say that as a lifelong Boeing fan and former 727 / 737 / 747 / 757/ 767 / 777 pilot.

Jesse
FLY DELTA JETS
 
325i
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 7:28 am

Greetings Folks, this programme is without doubt "the bottom of the barrel" their reporting is sensational and theatrical.
anyone that hangs on to their accuracy as being fact needs to get a LIFE!
Cheers 325i.
 
bgm
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 7:50 am

325i wrote:
Greetings Folks, this programme is without doubt "the bottom of the barrel" their reporting is sensational and theatrical.
anyone that hangs on to their accuracy as being fact needs to get a LIFE!
Cheers 325i.


Again, what in the documentary was factually incorrect?
Sweet Home Talibama.
 
rigo
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 8:03 am

bgm wrote:
325i wrote:
Greetings Folks, this programme is without doubt "the bottom of the barrel" their reporting is sensational and theatrical.
anyone that hangs on to their accuracy as being fact needs to get a LIFE!
Cheers 325i.


Again, what in the documentary was factually incorrect?


I think that for several posters on this forum, the problem with that programme is not that it was factually incorrect. Rather, it's that it was factually correct in presenting the 737MAX and Boeing's practices in a very bad light.
 
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Flyingdevil737
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 9:30 am

I agree with all the posts. The reporting is way over-dramatised. I’ve been told by many a friend to watch this a I refuse to.
The thunder from Down Under
 
sadiqutp
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 9:39 am

Flyingdevil737 wrote:
I agree with all the posts. The reporting is way over-dramatised. I’ve been told by many a friend to watch this a I refuse to.


So, you believe it's way over-dramatized, and you refuse to watch it at the same time? :confused: :confused: :confused:

For all those saying that it was dramatized, did you actually watch it? There are heavy names in the industry interviewed!
 
timh4000
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 10:14 am

When the fix is in, and the max is flying pax, I won't hesitate to get on one. I'm neither a Boeing fan boy nor an Airbus fan boy. Both put out safe airplanes and that is evidence by the general safety record of the last couple of decades especially.

Do I feel that Boeing rushed this plane into the air, absolutely. Cutting costs along the way and on 2 of the hundreds and hundreds of flights by the max series, 2 went down.

From the evidence we've seen so far, flight crews were not communicating well to each other. The prior flight of the lion air max, it was essentially the same problem that these pilots figured out how to arrest the problem but did not inform the next crew of what happened and what they did. The eithiopean crew did regain control although for reasons not currently known to the public at least, why they were over speeding and why did they turn the system back on.

I'm not putting ALL blame on pilots as they were never given the proper training so therefore, their actions can only be faulted just so much.

I'm fully confident when the fix comes down and the plane is in the air it will be as safe as any other plane.
 
speedbird52
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 10:16 am

zeke wrote:
Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization

The music and editing is what really put me off and made me doubt their credibility
 
bgm
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 10:31 am

speedbird52 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization

The music and editing is what really put me off and made me doubt their credibility


Ok, but once again (feeling like a broken record today), what was factually incorrect in the documentary? Have you actually watched the whole thing?
Sweet Home Talibama.
 
speedbird52
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 10:36 am

bgm wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization

The music and editing is what really put me off and made me doubt their credibility


Ok, but once again (feeling like a broken record today), what was factually incorrect in the documentary? Have you actually watched the whole thing?

I have. Nothing was factually incorrect. However, from the get go, the documentary made it clear that they wanted to blame Boeing. I will watch it again tomorrow and point out specifics.

Over-dramatization generally makes you doubt a producers credibility. Without credibility, we can't trust their anonymous sources.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 12:35 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
The information they have is okay, but the dramatization and voyeuristic usage of a families grief was tasteless. You could say they were trying to show the human effect of the accident, but the music, editing, and narration say otherwise. (...)

Absolutely not tasteless. A well made documentary that presents facts and emotions. A big :thumbsup: for the journalists who produced it and a big :thumbsdown: for Boeing who silently introduced the MCAS system and thought money was more important than safety.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 12:54 pm

AApilot2b wrote:
Garbage show. Absolutely garbage dramatization and fallacy.

I really wonder what you would consider a great show. Personally I think your reply is extremely tasteless and absolutely not fitting for somebody who wants to be a pilot ( if I interpret your username correct).

I suggest you follow some courses at a School for Journalism. Maybe than you would understand the quality in this report. For now, shame on you! :thumbsdown:
 
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zeke
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 1:01 pm

N809FR wrote:
Are you saying that the crew had nothing to do with why the airplane crashed? Just making sure, would hate to come to conclusions and assume anything.


I think every rational person would have the opinion that the crew played a role in the accident.

But the real question with the crew is not what they did and did not do, it is why they reacted the way they did.

I have observed an air of nonchalance with regard to the multiple crews reaction to the stick shaker, and why the memory items for that were not followed by the crews that crashed. I have also read other reports of 737 crews reaching around to pull the stick shaker CB.

What is driving this learned behaviour?

We should also understand why and how Boeing came to making their design choices for stability augmentation on the MAX.

Clearly the MCAS can work as designed most of the time, however what failure analysis was done when things are not just right ? Is that analysis something the pilots had control over ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 1:01 pm

N809FR wrote:
Are you saying that the crew had nothing to do with why the airplane crashed? Just making sure, would hate to come to conclusions and assume anything.

Are you sure that the 737 MAX and its control systems had nothing to do with why both airplanes crashed? Both crew had many, many thousands of hours. Why do you think all MAX airplanes are grounded worldwide? There must be more to these crashes than pilot error.
 
N809FR
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 1:23 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
N809FR wrote:
Are you saying that the crew had nothing to do with why the airplane crashed? Just making sure, would hate to come to conclusions and assume anything.

Are you sure that the 737 MAX and its control systems had nothing to do with why both airplanes crashed? Both crew had many, many thousands of hours. Why do you think all MAX airplanes are grounded worldwide? There must be more to these crashes than pilot error.


My personal opinion is that the grounding was a knee jerk reaction. Then you get programs like this 60 Minutes episode that do nothing but vilify the plane without even remotely touching on the poor handling in the Ethiopian crash by the flight crew. Also, just to add, I never made any statement absolving the 737 MAX in these crashes. I just find it a bit absurd to not place any blame with the pilots.

Before anyone calls me a fanboy again, look up the registration N809FR and tell me what kind of plane it is.
 
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Classa64
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 1:26 pm

Watched it, not a fan of the dramatics or the music but that's what grabs some peoples attention. Facts all seem to be there from all the things I have read. I can see it back in the air, yea it will take awhile, but maybe this was the catalyst to bring all parties involved together to realize what can happen when a system is misunderstood and or not tested enough.

I think the captain in the Sim summed it up best: "These are unintended consequences of an I'll thought out add on that was necessary"

C
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
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zeke
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 1:45 pm

Classa64 wrote:
I think the captain in the Sim summed it up best: "These are unintended consequences of an I'll thought out add on that was necessary"

C


That was Captain Chris Brady, a top bloke, and very knowledgable on the subject. Refer to his article https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/737-max- ... ofile_post


His background

Senior Investigator
easyJet 18 years

Currently responsible for policy and standards of over 250 investigators, leading or overseeing the investigation of significant safety events, development of ERC risk classification, bow tie analysis and SMS. Author of the company Safety Investigation Manual, I conduct 2 day investigator training courses and 4 day LOSA observer courses.

easyJet representative of UK Flight Safety Committee since 2008 and current Chairman.

Air Operations Regional Manager, responsible for flight operations, technical and safety at various UK crew bases, 2008-2011

Boeing 737 fleet Flight Policy & Standards Captain, 2006-2008
Flight Safety Investigator for 737 and A320 family since 2005

UK CAA Boeing 737 Continued Airworthiness Flight Test approved (approx 500hrs flight test time)
Airbus 319/320/321 Captain - since 2011
Boeing 737 - 18 years on type including training, fleet management
Flight Safety - Flight safety investigator for Boeing and Airbus types since 2005.
Chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee.
Various Flight Ops management positions held.
Author of The Boeing 737 Technical Guide and website at http://www.b737.org.uk since 1999.
Guest lecturer in airline management at Cranfield University.
Member of various CAA working groups.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Classa64
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 2:18 pm

zeke wrote:
Classa64 wrote:
I think the captain in the Sim summed it up best: "These are unintended consequences of an I'll thought out add on that was necessary"

C


That was Captain Chris Brady, a top bloke, and very knowledgable on the subject. Refer to his article https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/737-max- ... ofile_post


His background

Senior Investigator
easyJet 18 years

Currently responsible for policy and standards of over 250 investigators, leading or overseeing the investigation of significant safety events, development of ERC risk classification, bow tie analysis and SMS. Author of the company Safety Investigation Manual, I conduct 2 day investigator training courses and 4 day LOSA observer courses.

easyJet representative of UK Flight Safety Committee since 2008 and current Chairman.

Air Operations Regional Manager, responsible for flight operations, technical and safety at various UK crew bases, 2008-2011

Boeing 737 fleet Flight Policy & Standards Captain, 2006-2008
Flight Safety Investigator for 737 and A320 family since 2005

UK CAA Boeing 737 Continued Airworthiness Flight Test approved (approx 500hrs flight test time)
Airbus 319/320/321 Captain - since 2011
Boeing 737 - 18 years on type including training, fleet management
Flight Safety - Flight safety investigator for Boeing and Airbus types since 2005.
Chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee.
Various Flight Ops management positions held.
Author of The Boeing 737 Technical Guide and website at http://www.b737.org.uk since 1999.
Guest lecturer in airline management at Cranfield University.
Member of various CAA working groups.


Thanks Zeke great info and I did not know who did the Boeing 737 Technical Guide and website, very informative site.
C.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
bgm
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 2:27 pm

Ever since these crashes happened and MCAS was revealed to rely on only one sensor, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why Boeing would have such a critical system rely only on one sensor. It goes against any safety philosophy regarding aircraft design.

The documentary explained why: if it relied on 2 sensors, then the 737 MAX training would've required sim training for pilots ('level D'). There you have proof that they put money before safety.

Disgusting.
Sweet Home Talibama.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 2:55 pm

zeke wrote:
Can you guys be a bit more specific about the "garbage dramatization and fallacy" etc. I watched the program, the technical aspects seemed accurate to me, some heavy industry heavy weights involved.

The opinions expressed by the pilots, Dominic Gates etc seemed reasonable. The American Airlines 737 Captain pilot showed his ipad conversion course etc and his personal recollection of his meeting with Boeing being the representative of the American Pilots Union.. The interview with Flightglobal's operations & safety editor David Learmount seemed reasonable. Chris Brady is a very respected 737 pilot, best part of 20 years on type, including hundreds of hours of flight testing. , His 737 Technical Guide and website at http://www.b737.org.uk is the go to site for many 737 pilots. His simulator demonstrations seemed reasonable, with the obvious omission of the noisy stick shaker. Peter Lemme, FAA DER, former Boeing avionics engineer.

These are solid people in industry.

First time I had seen some of the crash site footage shown.

My criticism is in the other thread we were told 737 pilots are taught they must not raise the flaps after the stick shaker activates. In this 60 Minutes Australia production at 0:30 they are rolling down the runway and rotate and at 0:50 the video jumps straight to retracting the flaps but does not show any stick shaker and thus no consideration of the pilots reaction to the stick shaker or lack thereof. The video leaves the impression of perfectly normal flight before flaps up, and evidence that this was not the case was not presented.

https://news.aviation-safety.net/2018/1 ... -accident/ gives us the timeline:

During takeoff from Jakarta, the DFDR recorded a difference between left and right Angle of Attack of about 20° which continued until the end of the recording. During rotation of the aircraft, the left control column stick shaker activated and continued for most of the flight.

After the flaps were retracted, the FDR recorded automatic aircraft nose down (AND) trim for 10 seconds followed by flight crew commanded aircraft nose up (ANU) trim. Automatic AND trim briefly stopped when the flaps were temporarily extended to 5.

The 60 Minutes Australia production stopped their time line right at rotation and fast forwarded to flaps up and totally ignored the pilots actions or lack thereof to resolve the stick shaker, and didn't point out they should not have raised flaps with stick shaker active.

And I think any neutral observer would say the production is quite dramatized/sensationalized with the use of thunderous music and wailing choirs, and streaming video of first responders lugging body bags away from crash sites, yet I guess all of this stuff is par for the course these days so we just take no note of it.

It's clear that at 5:20 the reporter saying unflattering things about the 737 as Boeing workers wheel a green 737 behind her is "fake news". It's clear she was recorded in a studio with a green screen background and the Boeing video was merged with the studio video. Why would they feel the need to take this approach? They wanted to come across as brazenly challenging Boeing right at a Boeing site but couldn't find a way to do so, so instead we get a studio mock up. I think that says a lot about how 60 Minutes Australia approached this topic, but again, this is par for the course these days, so it seems.

They do use very responsible and respected industry figures in the video, but you also have to keep in mind that the job of a union rep is to gain leverage on the company that can be used in future negotiations. I'm not saying anything he said was wrong, but I'm saying he is not coming from a neutral point of view.

This is what I've seen in the first 6:00. I'll get to the rest later.

zeke wrote:
think every rational person would have the opinion that the crew played a role in the accident.

But the real question with the crew is not what they did and did not do, it is why they reacted the way they did.

I have observed an air of nonchalance with regard to the multiple crews reaction to the stick shaker, and why the memory items for that were not followed by the crews that crashed. I have also read other reports of 737 crews reaching around to pull the stick shaker CB.

What is driving this learned behaviour?

We should also understand why and how Boeing came to making their design choices for stability augmentation on the MAX.

Clearly the MCAS can work as designed most of the time, however what failure analysis was done when things are not just right ? Is that analysis something the pilots had control over ?

I think this is fair.

My comments on this forum point out how it has been Boeing's strategy to consistently stick to the most minor of omissions ("we're sorry because we put too much work load on the pilots") and has prepared the ground for the infamous May 23rd meeting by constraining the discussion to be only about the MCAS changes and definitely not a broad review of how MCAS happened in the first place.

I think there should be a broad review of how MCAS happened in the first place and I think Boeing's strategy of doing everything it can do to avoid one could very well blow up in their faces, taking down most of the Boeing C Suite with it.

I don't understand why some think the issue is 100% pilot or 100% manufacturer. Plenty of blame to be shared between the pilots, the airlines, Boeing, the FAA, and the world's other regulators that certify the MAX and license the pilots that fly the MAX. Airbus is also voicing concerns about global pilot training levels. But yes, the bulk of the blame goes to Boeing.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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MartijnNL
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 3:08 pm

N809FR wrote:
My personal opinion is that the grounding was a knee jerk reaction. Then you get programs like this 60 Minutes episode that do nothing but vilify the plane without even remotely touching on the poor handling in the Ethiopian crash by the flight crew. (...)

Poor handling? The experienced airman in the first part of the program, captain Chris Brady, explains very well what the crew were up against. The only poor handling here is the way in which Boeing produced the plane and hurried it into service. Save some money on training, lose the lives of 346 passengers. I am a Boeing fanboy (and an Airbus one), but this is just terrible behaviour.

N809FR wrote:
Before anyone calls me a fanboy again, look up the registration N809FR and tell me what kind of plane it is.

The Airbus A318 of Frontier Airlines! I wish I had seen it during its short life at the airline. I have been once to Denver airport, but is was already out of service at that time. Unfortunately the DHC-8-400 was also already retired. Sometimes I wish I could just turn back time. Frontier Airlines' livery was also much better back then.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 3:40 pm

Maybe I'd better wait for the final report before making any conclusions. But I think it's good 60 minutes paid attention to the family of victims. This was absolutely not tasteless, but provided insight into the personal tragedy of the Ethiopian crash.

N809FR, although we disagree, thank you for contributing to this forum.
 
JimIA
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 4:24 pm

"We were under pressure to minimize changes, to cut costs, and to get it done quickly", said every engineer, ever. This is not scandalous.
"Was there a flaw in the system?": Clearly. But it will be corrected like every design, manufacturing, or process flaw discovered in the last century.
"...because it put profits before people". Nonsense. Exactly no one in this industry is cavalier about loss of life.
It was absolutely heartbreaking to hear the families' stories. Very informative to hear the pilots' viewpoints. Annoying to hear the ominous music and dramatic teasers designed to keep viewers from switching away during commercial breaks.
"When you put your head on the pillow at night, you ask yourself 'What did I miss'", also true for every engineer ever. I'm glad they left that in.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 4:28 pm

No matter how you look at what happened, it was a tragedy. 60 Minutes put a human face on it in the middle of all the technical stuff, and it is probably a good thing.

There's no way you could make this piece without it being dramatic. It was dramatic.

That being said, the whole piece comes across as a bit tilted and biased because you only hear the criticism. There's nobody from Boeing to explain what happened through their point of view. As far as I understand, they offered Boeing to have their say - but they denied. It was probably a wise decision from a legal standpoint. However, you only hear the one side through the story.

People react to these things with feelings. That's a human thing to do. And I'm guilty of it as well. I was absolutely furious at Boeing after the 2nd crash. With good reason. But the more you think about the whole situation, the more it becomes a tragedy for everyone involved. Including the FAA and Boeing.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 4:55 pm

AApilot2b wrote:
Garbage show. Absolutely garbage dramatization and fallacy.


2b are you an AA pilot now?
 
B748eye
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 6:18 pm

Show was well done. Of course they're going to delve into the personal tragedy - It's for a wide audience. Losing a family member draws more eyeballs than B737Max8 MCAS tech talk the entire 40 minutes.
The experts were entirely competent, reasoned, and well spoken.
For all those saying "it's garbage!", "one sided!" (deep arguments, btw) ...... Boeing was given ample opportunity to frame their side, but chose not to speak up. The warning 'what you say will be used against you' comes to mind
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 7:00 pm

I find it funny how people will crap on this program but then take political news at face value from the same network :stirthepot:

The testimony from the pilots was a very powerful moment and really put it into perspective of how terrifying those last minutes were for those onboard.
 
art
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 7:22 pm

AApilot2b wrote:
Garbage show. Absolutely garbage dramatization and fallacy.


Nonsence IMO.

Yes, there was comment about how one family was affected. Those interviews were sympathetically done with no cheap attempts to elicit intense emotions.

Good, accessible. informative simulator demonstrations and explanations by a number of aviation experts.
 
cedarjet
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sat May 18, 2019 9:13 pm

It was extremely well done and the use of expert big names was impressive. I think Learmount spoke for all of us at the very end — “what were [Boeing] thinking?!”
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
itisi
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 1:03 am

Great show, great crew and very interesting stories. This was no exception.
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
zoom321
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 1:16 am

cedarjet wrote:
It was extremely well done and the use of expert big names was impressive. I think Learmount spoke for all of us at the very end — “what were [Boeing] thinking?!”

He was being polite to ask, everyone knows what B was thinking...... $$$.
 
MaksFly
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 1:47 am

Thanks for sharing it. I thought the documentary was very well done and focus on it all... It was certainly presenting facts in an easy to understand matter and points the main issues and why it happened.

I think people blaming the pilots are just grasping at straws... what are we going to do next? Blame the passengers because they got on the plane?

Boeing screwed up big time and are forced to pay for it... and should. They are not going to learn otherwise.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 1:57 am

Boeing lied, people died. I think I'm more disgusted at this point with the US government as they have not taken any criminal action against Boeing or it's top executives.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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Francoflier
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 11:03 am

TV will, always, dramatize events. That's how they sell.

The thing is, Boeing could very well have avoided these kinds of spotlights being shone at them if they had behaved differently. They are paying for their actions.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 2:55 pm

One more accident and Boeing are toast. If they are trying ot cut corners now it will bite them back big time. They need redesign at the very least.
 
QueenoftheSkies
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 5:02 pm

Although it did have a bit of a sensationalist tone to it at times, I wouldn’t label it as such. They presented facts and testimonials that supported it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 5:09 pm

I haven't watched it yet, but I will.

I strongly believe that a similar accident could have happened in the western world. I would like all pilots to be perfect piloting gods, but I know it isn't so, and even though accidents are rare, they happen, even to western pilots. How can one argue that a US pilot would not do this or that, days after a US pilot put his 737 in the drink ?

If it had happened in the US, to a US airline, with mostly US passengers, I would expect several heads would have rolled by now, and Boeing's reputation would be even more in the gutter than it is already.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Revelation
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Sun May 19, 2019 6:04 pm

bgm wrote:
325i wrote:
Greetings Folks, this programme is without doubt "the bottom of the barrel" their reporting is sensational and theatrical.
anyone that hangs on to their accuracy as being fact needs to get a LIFE!
Cheers 325i.

Again, what in the documentary was factually incorrect?

After watching the entire video, I'd say my criticism is not about what they included but what they omitted, and their deceptive cutting and pasting of sequences. The overly dramatic music is also off putting, but I guess that's just the norm these days.

As mentioned above, the 60 Minutes Australia production started the simulator session showing a take off roll then immediately jumped forward to the pilot lowering the flaps and thus escalating their problems, with no coverage of what the pilots should have done or actually did during the time not shown. The AA union rep pilot said the situation started within meters of the ground but the situation didn't escalate till the pilot chose to lower the flaps which he should not have done. They never mentioned the pilots must not raise the flaps while the stick shaker is active nor that the pilots did do just that. They did show in the simulator that it would take a human several seconds to open the manual to the right checklist to deal with runaway trim, but they didn't mention that not lowering flaps with the stick shaker active is an item the pilots need to remember as opposed to finding in a checkist, and neither of the two pilots did remember.

JetBuddy wrote:
That being said, the whole piece comes across as a bit tilted and biased because you only hear the criticism. There's nobody from Boeing to explain what happened through their point of view. As far as I understand, they offered Boeing to have their say - but they denied. It was probably a wise decision from a legal standpoint. However, you only hear the one side through the story.

Thing is, to be proper journalism they can't just say "Boeing didn't provide content to us so we can do a hit piece on them", 60 Minutes Australia still has a journalistic responsibility to tell the whole story, not just pick and choose the bits that makes their story more appealing to their target audience. Without balance, it isn't journalism, it's sensationalism.
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bgm
Posts: 1963
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Re: 60 Minutes Australia special on 737max

Mon May 20, 2019 9:21 am

Revelation wrote:
bgm wrote:
325i wrote:
Greetings Folks, this programme is without doubt "the bottom of the barrel" their reporting is sensational and theatrical.
anyone that hangs on to their accuracy as being fact needs to get a LIFE!
Cheers 325i.

Again, what in the documentary was factually incorrect?

After watching the entire video, I'd say my criticism is not about what they included but what they omitted, and their deceptive cutting and pasting of sequences. The overly dramatic music is also off putting, but I guess that's just the norm these days.

As mentioned above, the 60 Minutes Australia production started the simulator session showing a take off roll then immediately jumped forward to the pilot lowering the flaps and thus escalating their problems, with no coverage of what the pilots should have done or actually did during the time not shown. The AA union rep pilot said the situation started within meters of the ground but the situation didn't escalate till the pilot chose to lower the flaps which he should not have done. They never mentioned the pilots must not raise the flaps while the stick shaker is active nor that the pilots did do just that. They did show in the simulator that it would take a human several seconds to open the manual to the right checklist to deal with runaway trim, but they didn't mention that not lowering flaps with the stick shaker active is an item the pilots need to remember as opposed to finding in a checkist, and neither of the two pilots did remember.

JetBuddy wrote:
That being said, the whole piece comes across as a bit tilted and biased because you only hear the criticism. There's nobody from Boeing to explain what happened through their point of view. As far as I understand, they offered Boeing to have their say - but they denied. It was probably a wise decision from a legal standpoint. However, you only hear the one side through the story.

Thing is, to be proper journalism they can't just say "Boeing didn't provide content to us so we can do a hit piece on them", 60 Minutes Australia still has a journalistic responsibility to tell the whole story, not just pick and choose the bits that makes their story more appealing to their target audience. Without balance, it isn't journalism, it's sensationalism.


So, to summarize, you agree that there was nothing in the documentary that was factually incorrect? That was my original question.

Try to look at the bigger picture: if Boeing had not installed MCAS, none of this would have happened.

Boeing are 100% to blame.

Please stop trying to shift all the blame onto the dead pilots. It's dishonest, crass, and quite frankly, delusional.
Sweet Home Talibama.

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