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Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:31 am

The 797 is more of a 767 replacement and partially a 757 replacement
 
incitatus
Posts: 3295
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:34 am

Revelation wrote:
We don't have to be in an either/or situation.

The market supports a "warmed over" A330neo with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" 787 and A350 that have more seats, more range and even better economy.

The market can support "warmed over" A321neo/A321lr/A321xlr with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" NMA that will have more seats, more range and even better economy.


I am not too warm on this analogy because I see the A330neo as a bit of a flop. It is too capable and eats into the A350 territory. The A321XLR has no competitor and the NMA will not be one.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:34 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
Not out there routes, but I can see AA doing some work in Hawaii with the XLR in servicing KOA & LIH from DFW. Maybe HNL-DCA?

You'll see more destinations to secondary EU cities.

I doubt the runways at DCA are long enough.
 
IAmGaroott
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:37 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:50 am

Boof02671 wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
I just listened to AAs “Tell Me Why” podcast regarding the XLR order. They had president Robert Isom speak about that aircraft and the fleet moving forward.

What caught my attention was when he spoke about “where we’re going” as far as wide bodies, he mentioned all ac, including the 772s but said nothing about the A333 nor A332.

They already announced the 332s are staying and the 333s are being kept through at least till the end of 2021.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... uary-2019/


I've read that article. I was just struck by him mentioning the 767 retirement and referring to the 772 fleet as part of the future with no mention of the A330s. Especially with the oldest of the latter two supposedly being replaced by the second batch of 789s.
 
IAmGaroott
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:37 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:00 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
Not out there routes, but I can see AA doing some work in Hawaii with the XLR in servicing KOA & LIH from DFW. Maybe HNL-DCA?

You'll see more destinations to secondary EU cities.

I doubt the runways at DCA are long enough.


DCA received a DC10 as a weather diversion from IAD in April of 98, so it is possible. https://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/4271371847

But Hawaii seems unlikely for DCA. If anything, their puddle jumpers will become all E175s and you'll start seeing more domestic A321s, A320s, and 738s to bump up the existing A319 flight capacity.
 
Jetty
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:25 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


Big difference - 1988 technology is still state-of-the-art in 2019 for civilian jetliners.

Everyone is missing the point. If the 321XLR is enough to kill the 797, then Boeing was right to do the MAX in response to the NEO rather than a cleansheet. I realize the 797/321XLR market is probably smaller. But the logic is the same unless you just hate Boeing

There’s a 15 year difference between the time that passed between the original 737 and MAX EIS and the original 320 and 321XLR planned EIS. If you’re really looking for a comparison here it’d more valid to say that Boeing was right to do the 737NG, which I don’t think anyone doubts.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 592
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:37 am

Jetty wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Big difference - 1988 technology is still state-of-the-art in 2019 for civilian jetliners.

Everyone is missing the point. If the 321XLR is enough to kill the 797, then Boeing was right to do the MAX in response to the NEO rather than a cleansheet. I realize the 797/321XLR market is probably smaller. But the logic is the same unless you just hate Boeing

There’s a 15 year difference between the time that passed between the original 737 and MAX EIS and the original 320 and 321XLR planned EIS. If you’re really looking for a comparison here it’d more valid to say that Boeing was right to do the 737NG, which I don’t think anyone doubts.


:shakehead:

It's 52 years for the 737 family (1967) and 32 years for the A320 family (1987).
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Jetty
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:43 am

1989worstyear wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Everyone is missing the point. If the 321XLR is enough to kill the 797, then Boeing was right to do the MAX in response to the NEO rather than a cleansheet. I realize the 797/321XLR market is probably smaller. But the logic is the same unless you just hate Boeing

There’s a 15 year difference between the time that passed between the original 737 and MAX EIS and the original 320 and 321XLR planned EIS. If you’re really looking for a comparison here it’d more valid to say that Boeing was right to do the 737NG, which I don’t think anyone doubts.


:shakehead:

It's 52 years for the 737 family (1967) and 32 years for the A320 family (1987).

And how many years are there between MAX and XLR EIS? :wave:
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3309
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:45 am

I can see these used for a return of DFW-LIH and year-round DFW-KOA, but personally I won't be flying that long in a narrowbody.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 592
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:08 am

Jetty wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Jetty wrote:
There’s a 15 year difference between the time that passed between the original 737 and MAX EIS and the original 320 and 321XLR planned EIS. If you’re really looking for a comparison here it’d more valid to say that Boeing was right to do the 737NG, which I don’t think anyone doubts.


:shakehead:

It's 52 years for the 737 family (1967) and 32 years for the A320 family (1987).

And how many years are there between MAX and XLR EIS? :wave:


It should be six between the 7M8 and XLR according to the EIS date from Airbus (2017 vs. 2023).
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Jetty
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:21 am

1989worstyear wrote:
Jetty wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

:shakehead:

It's 52 years for the 737 family (1967) and 32 years for the A320 family (1987).

And how many years are there between MAX and XLR EIS? :wave:


It should be six between the 7M8 and XLR according to the EIS date from Airbus (2017 vs. 2023).

Ok, a 14 year difference then. My point still stands: generation wise the NG is more comparable to the XLR than the MAX.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:36 am

IAmGaroott wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
Not out there routes, but I can see AA doing some work in Hawaii with the XLR in servicing KOA & LIH from DFW. Maybe HNL-DCA?

You'll see more destinations to secondary EU cities.

I doubt the runways at DCA are long enough.


DCA received a DC10 as a weather diversion from IAD in April of 98, so it is possible. https://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/4271371847

But Hawaii seems unlikely for DCA. If anything, their puddle jumpers will become all E175s and you'll start seeing more domestic A321s, A320s, and 738s to bump up the existing A319 flight capacity.

A Dc10 has three engines and wasn’t fully maxed out on takeoff for a short hop over to IAD, a full loaded A321XLR is a different story.

XLR can’t make, distance between DCA and HNL is 4,833 miles.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:00 am

Revelation wrote:
The market can support "warmed over" A321neo/A321lr/A321xlr with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" NMA that will have more seats, more range and even better economy.

B.t.w. Boeing just hopes to build a widebody aircraft with the same economics as narrowbodies, but not better economics.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
Strato2
Posts: 423
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:48 am

Congrats to AA, Airbus and flying pax! Another nail in the MOM/NMA/whatever coffin.
 
Mboyle1988
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:38 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:10 am

Boof02671 wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I doubt the runways at DCA are long enough.


DCA received a DC10 as a weather diversion from IAD in April of 98, so it is possible. https://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/4271371847

But Hawaii seems unlikely for DCA. If anything, their puddle jumpers will become all E175s and you'll start seeing more domestic A321s, A320s, and 738s to bump up the existing A319 flight capacity.

A Dc10 has three engines and wasn’t fully maxed out on takeoff for a short hop over to IAD, a full loaded A321XLR is a different story.

XLR can’t make, distance between DCA and HNL is 4,833 miles.


Range is 4700 NM so plenty of range to get to HNL. Whether it can take off is a different story.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:54 am

Boof02671 wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I doubt the runways at DCA are long enough.


DCA received a DC10 as a weather diversion from IAD in April of 98, so it is possible. https://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/4271371847

But Hawaii seems unlikely for DCA. If anything, their puddle jumpers will become all E175s and you'll start seeing more domestic A321s, A320s, and 738s to bump up the existing A319 flight capacity.

A Dc10 has three engines and wasn’t fully maxed out on takeoff for a short hop over to IAD, a full loaded A321XLR is a different story.

XLR can’t make, distance between DCA and HNL is 4,833 miles.


No it is 4200 nautical miles....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:48 am

Strato2 wrote:
Congrats to AA, Airbus and flying pax! Another nail in the MOM/NMA/whatever coffin.


Why wouldn't you want to see a new aircraft? I don't want to see any aircraft disappear or not make it into production. What a strange/sad view you have.
 
marcelh
Posts: 649
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Congrats to AA, Airbus and flying pax! Another nail in the MOM/NMA/whatever coffin.


Why wouldn't you want to see a new aircraft? I don't want to see any aircraft disappear or not make it into production. What a strange/sad view you have.

Maybe the same view of those who want to see the Airbus WB fail. Also known as “fanboism”
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:56 am

Olddog wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:

DCA received a DC10 as a weather diversion from IAD in April of 98, so it is possible. https://www.flickr.com/photos/keleivis/4271371847

But Hawaii seems unlikely for DCA. If anything, their puddle jumpers will become all E175s and you'll start seeing more domestic A321s, A320s, and 738s to bump up the existing A319 flight capacity.

A Dc10 has three engines and wasn’t fully maxed out on takeoff for a short hop over to IAD, a full loaded A321XLR is a different story.

XLR can’t make, distance between DCA and HNL is 4,833 miles.


No it is 4200 nautical miles....

You are forgetting an ETOPS flight must carry extra fuel for alt diversions.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:58 am

You are trying to invent an excuse to your mistakes ;)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
cpd
Posts: 5959
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:27 am

MSPNWA wrote:
I can see these used for a return of DFW-LIH and year-round DFW-KOA, but personally I won't be flying that long in a narrowbody.


I share that thought, but if these really do work - they might just make twin-aisle planes obsolete, then these will be the only way.

It is always said on airliners.net by those most esteemed aviation planning experts that people prefer frequency instead of larger planes, so this may be the ultimate solution.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9378
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:09 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
A Dc10 has three engines and wasn’t fully maxed out on takeoff for a short hop over to IAD, a full loaded A321XLR is a different story.

XLR can’t make, distance between DCA and HNL is 4,833 miles.


No it is 4200 nautical miles....

You are forgetting an ETOPS flight must carry extra fuel for alt diversions.

The point is moot anyways because the flight requires an out of perimeter slot, and I doubt AA is going to use one of their few transferable slots on HNL rather than a west coast business market.
 
PRAirbus
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:59 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:39 am

wonder if these A321XLR's will be equipped with PTV/IFE unless they will be basic bare bones like USAirways planes, let's hope NOT!
 
Elementalism
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:46 am

Strato2 wrote:
Congrats to AA, Airbus and flying pax! Another nail in the MOM/NMA/whatever coffin.


268 XLR frames sold at PAS19. The business case cant be anymore clear imo.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5439
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:55 am

PRAirbus wrote:
wonder if these A321XLR's will be equipped with PTV/IFE unless they will be basic bare bones like USAirways planes, let's hope NOT!


You recognize that AA's plan to to rip out AVOD from ex-AA planes, too, right?

cpd wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I can see these used for a return of DFW-LIH and year-round DFW-KOA, but personally I won't be flying that long in a narrowbody.


I share that thought, but if these really do work - they might just make twin-aisle planes obsolete, then these will be the only way.

It is always said on airliners.net by those most esteemed aviation planning experts that people prefer frequency instead of larger planes, so this may be the ultimate solution.


It'll be just like the way 757s obsoleted DC-10s from the West Coast, only in turn to be obsoleted by 738s. Carriers will chase CASM (and minimum seat count to boost fares).
 
h1fl1er
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:58 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:10 pm

Polot wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Olddog wrote:

No it is 4200 nautical miles....

You are forgetting an ETOPS flight must carry extra fuel for alt diversions.

The point is moot anyways because the flight requires an out of perimeter slot, and I doubt AA is going to use one of their few transferable slots on HNL rather than a west coast business market.


correct. westbound would be a challenge for that plane and would probably not be favorable against a widebody.

the outside-perimeter slots tend to go to the major's hubs. AS has the best operation imaginable at DCA, they have LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, all the major west coast cities covered. the others fly to whatever "hub" they have, usually LAX.

the XLR will be heavier and if low-density, will have higher seat-mile vs other configs. also a good bit slower than a widebody.

but there are no shortage of airlines looking to do long missions with NBs. Copa has made their entire business model out of this...I've flown PTY-GIG, like an 8hr mission on a 738. they have a pretty decent product up front. they can't wait for their Maxes
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