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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:45 am

planecane wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
planecane wrote:

They changed the aircraft because there was clearly an issue with the design of MCAS that led to an unacceptably high rate of runaway stabilizer incidents and worldwide regulatory agencies were not going to allow it to fly again if they didn't.

The final reports on the crashes haven't been released yet. Therefore the amount of blame assigned to pilots is speculation and opinion at this point. The blame for the failure mode caused by multiple bad decisions in the design of MCAS falls 100% on Boeing. "Blame" for the crashes will likely be spread, at least in part, to other factors. Regardless of the pilots or MCAS, Lion Air dispatched a plane that landed with a known malfunctioning sensor. That crash would not have happened if the failed sensor was replaced and verified to be in working order. It is also true that if MCAS had been designed properly the crash would not have occurred. It isn't so black and white that there is one cause and one party to blame.

No. There was not a known malfunctioning AOA sensor. The pilots best assessment was their problems were related to airspeed malfunction and this was addressed.

Ray


Since when is it the pilot's job to root cause in flight malfunctions? I thought that that was the job of maintenance technicians. I will rephrase. The flight was dispatched with what should have been a known malfunctioning AoA sensor.

IIRC correctly, MCAS was documented in the maintenance manual although my memory could be failing me.


That's the difference between rote pilots and really good ones. It's the surprise cases where you need those skills. Such as with MCAS failures which of course should not have happened. But given Boeings screwup and that MCAS acted up, the difference in survivability was a pilot skill difference. And there are many other accidents where excellent pilot skills saved flights from unusual circumstances.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:59 am

sgrow787 wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Question about the horizontal stabilizer trim neutralization:

In both JT610 and ET302 the published flight data records shows that when the pilots used manual electrical stabilizer trim switches to command a nose up after a MCAS automated nose down command, there seem to have difficulties to trim nose up long enough to fully neutralize the horizontal stabilizer to the point where the yoke pitch can be relaxed by both pilots. I see this difficulty as one of the Emmental cheese holes that aligned in the crashes. My understanding is that the pilots very routinely use the electric stab trim switches in any flights, so there are perfectly familiar with them. But the JT610 and ET302 records suggests something like hesitations to continues the stab trim up, and/or a lack of perception on the necessity to continue the stab trim up. Do we have some explanations about this ?

I was speculating that maybe if both pilots applies pitch forces on the yoke, the one that switch the electrical stab trim up might stop when he feel that his pitch force on the yoke disappear, regardless of the pitch force that the other pilot can still apply to the yoke. In consequences the stab trim could not be easily fully neutralized in case both pilots applies pitch force on the yoke.


I believe I read somewhere that, as the Max hits higher and higher airspeed, it has a pitch up moment (from the engine nacelles?) that need counter stab trim (down) to keep desired flight path. This is evident in the down electric trim inputs made by the pilot of ET302 at 05:38:50 ~ :39:20, which is during climbout but before flaps retracted (ie before MCAS kicked in) Of course, the other reason for down trim is fear of stall as warned by the stick shaker. IIRC ET302 did not have a working AOA disagree light. If they had one, they could have immediately diagnosed a possible MCAS 1.0 before it started. Also, as far as I can tell, there's been no reports that Southwest got their current Max fleet retrofitted with the working AOA disagree light.


Any airplane will pitch up as it accelerates, if nose down trim isn’t applied.

When you trim an airplane, you trim for a speed. The airplane will seek out its trim speed.

For example, before takeoff, the stab trim is set to approximate the planned V2 speed. As you accelerate past that speed, if you don’t trim nose down, the nose will pitch up, to return the airplane to trim speed.

Not a MAX thing, but basic aerodynamics.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:42 am

As a reminder: Please use the reporting function in case you think there are posts which are violating Forum Rules, thanks.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:22 am

n562wn wrote:
Haha, talk about not "getting it"... You obviously don't. All parties have egg on their face in this fiasco. I'm not sure why that's so hard to grasp for some here.

We have actual pilots with thousands of hours of experience flying planes telling you that the crews could have recovered the plane or not let it get into a state that was unrecoverable, but somehow people like you know better.


There is enough "egg" to go around.
changing the amount of egg on those pilot faces
in no way changes the amount of egg Boeing is buried under.

Those "Superpilots" that say they have spent all their life on a pilot seat. from diaper to death:
This is a hic Rhodos, hic salta thing. as talk is cheap.
My personal observation is that those "super long experience posturer" judgements aren't worth all that much.
more ossified than experienced.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:40 am

sgrow787 wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Question about the horizontal stabilizer trim neutralization:

In both JT610 and ET302 the published flight data records shows that when the pilots used manual electrical stabilizer trim switches to command a nose up after a MCAS automated nose down command, there seem to have difficulties to trim nose up long enough to fully neutralize the horizontal stabilizer to the point where the yoke pitch can be relaxed by both pilots. I see this difficulty as one of the Emmental cheese holes that aligned in the crashes. My understanding is that the pilots very routinely use the electric stab trim switches in any flights, so there are perfectly familiar with them. But the JT610 and ET302 records suggests something like hesitations to continues the stab trim up, and/or a lack of perception on the necessity to continue the stab trim up. Do we have some explanations about this ?

I was speculating that maybe if both pilots applies pitch forces on the yoke, the one that switch the electrical stab trim up might stop when he feel that his pitch force on the yoke disappear, regardless of the pitch force that the other pilot can still apply to the yoke. In consequences the stab trim could not be easily fully neutralized in case both pilots applies pitch force on the yoke.


I believe I read somewhere that, as the Max hits higher and higher airspeed, it has a pitch up moment (from the engine nacelles?) that need counter stab trim (down) to keep desired flight path. This is evident in the down electric trim inputs made by the pilot of ET302 at 05:38:50 ~ :39:20, which is during climbout but before flaps retracted (ie before MCAS kicked in) Of course, the other reason for down trim is fear of stall as warned by the stick shaker. IIRC ET302 did not have a working AOA disagree light. If they had one, they could have immediately diagnosed a possible MCAS 1.0 before it started. Also, as far as I can tell, there's been no reports that Southwest got their current Max fleet retrofitted with the working AOA disagree light.

Thanks for your response "sgrow787".
But my question was specifically about the "manual electrical stabilizer trim switches to command a nose up after a MCAS automated nose down command", not before. Maybe I should be more clear in my question.

I focus specifically into the fight between the MCAS and the pilots. MCAS issued automated stab trim nose down and pilots reacted most of the time correctly by making manual electric stab trim nose up. Then the MCAS issued an other stab trim nose down and the pilots reacted with a yet another stab trim nose up. This fight cycle can be observer several times in the JT610 and ET302 flight data records. This fight cycle ended dramatically in part because at some point the pilots manual electrical stab trim nose up did not fully neutralize the MCAS stab trim nose down, so the attitude goes more and more toward the ground. My question here to try to understand why the pilots did not perceive how critical it was to fully neutralize the stab trim when fighting the MCAS. The pilots do correctly make nose up stab trim, but not long enough to avoid the ground. So the question is to find what the pilots do feel that prompted them to stop the stab trim nose up too early.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:41 pm

snowkarl wrote:
The reason people don't want to give you and Morrisond (& co) this 'inch' is because you not only saying it was a small part of the crash, but the MAIN factor - when this is so obviously not the case and not even relevant to the discussion anymore.

The ONLY reason the plane crashed is the software and hardware design flaws that Boeing not only implemented, but lied about and hid from customers, airines and PILOTS. This is undeniable fact however you spin it.

Proof is in the extremely easy comparison to the similar NG aircraft: they are not crashing left and right like the MAX did - despite having THE SAME TRAINING AND PILOTS - it was the ENTIRE reason Boeing even designed the MAX with the flaws - so there would be no difference in practice.


I am not saying the main reason the plane's crashed is the Pilot's. Please stop trying to imply something I am not.

Previously I think said something along the lines that Lionair was 90% Boeing/Regulators (with the Majority being Boeing) and 10% Lionair Training/Pilots (if something tries to kill you 22 times maybe you should turn it off) whereas ET I put About 50% Boeing/Regulators and 40% ET Training/10% Pilots - with the big culprit ET's training system.

Pilot's can't learn what they aren't taught. From news articles it appears the extent of ET's training on MCAS procedures was sending the procedure to it's Pilot's in an email that did not even require a read receipt and only after multiple prompts from Boeing and some of it's own Pilot's who took the time to understand the problem.

If there is an issue with a plane in your fleet sending an email is not symptomatic of a good training system. At minimum this should have required a lot more than an email and should have required sign off from all of ET's pilots that it was fully understood - either through face to face discussions with the check pilots or a sim session to go through the procedure as well as they could of. Even though MCAS was not available in the sims they could have at least practised the procedure and put the plane out of trim auto throttle fully engaged and practised how to get out of that.

This was ET's responsibility to ensure that its pilots were sufficiently trained to deal with an MCAS emergency but no matter how bad ET's training was it does absolve Pilot's from knowing all they can about the Aircraft they are entrusted to fly and how to deal with any potential issues - especially when there has been recent fatalities. In the scale of emergency's it should not have been that big of a deal compared to something like an in-flight fire or explosive decompression.

NG's aren't crashing left and right because the Automation is working and rarely fails to expose the lack of skills. Boeing got the NG right but screwed up MCAS implementation.

Boeing's bad design is not the only reason ET crashed - but the vast Majority of why LionAir crashed.

How confident would you feel on a Flight in instrument conditions with a non-functioning Auto-pilot with a lot of pilots who have almost zero current experience with hand flying skills? Auto pilots do fail.

Manual flight skills need to be improved Worldwide and if that isn't a learning out of the grounding that is a real shame.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:00 pm

morrisond wrote:
This was ET's responsibility to ensure that its pilots were sufficiently trained to deal with an MCAS emergency

No, this is not how aircraft safety is actually implemented. This is the responsibility of the aircraft manufacturer to design safe system, to analyse the failure modes, to assess the resulting risk, to define the mitigation procedure, and to define the training requirement for the procedures. Boeing failed as every single stages of the implementation, but even more, in a very epic way, regarding the training requirement.

The absolute fact is that the EAD did not require any training requirement at all. The word "training" did not even exists in the EAD, nothing, niente, nichts, rien, nada... How can you blame ET for a such massive Boeing and FAA mistake ?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:14 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
This was ET's responsibility to ensure that its pilots were sufficiently trained to deal with an MCAS emergency

No, this is not how aircraft safety is actually implemented. This is the responsibility of the aircraft manufacturer to design safe system, to analyse the failure modes, to assess the resulting risk, to define the mitigation procedure, and to define the training requirement for the procedures. Boeing failed as every single stages of the implementation, but even more, in a very epic way, regarding the training requirement.

The absolute fact is that the EAD did not require any training requirement at all. The word "training" did not even exists in the EAD, nothing, niente, nichts, rien, nada... How can you blame ET for a such massive Boeing and FAA mistake ?


Ok maybe training was a bad word - how about "it was ET's responsibility to make sure it's Pilot's understood the EAD" and how to deal with it.

Not Nice how the Mods booted the Pilot training discussion over to the Technical Section so no one will see it.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:21 pm

morrisond wrote:
Manual flight skills need to be improved Worldwide and if that isn't a learning out of the grounding that is a real shame.

The 737-8/9 MAX grounding is not caused by the lack of manual flight skills !
All the safety regulation agencies to date have officially focused only on the 737-8/9 MAX design and certification, not on manual flight skills.
JT610 and ET302 crashed due to unrealistic expectation on the pilots to safely mitigate with a untrained procedure a new failure mode specific to the 737-8/9 MAX.
Last edited by PixelFlight on Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:38 pm

morrisond wrote:
Ok maybe training was a bad word - how about "it was ET's responsibility to make sure it's Pilot's understood the EAD" and how to deal with it.

Still no, sorry.
Training is the required tool to ensure that a safety critical procedure that must be implemented within 3 seconds is well understood, detected, and executed by the pilots. This is part of the safety regulation certification and this must be done by the aircraft manufacturer. The EAD should have required specific training for the new specific failure mode of the 737-8/9 MAX, but it did not. This is factually written into the EAD:

"This AD requires revising certificate limitations and operating procedures of the airplane
flight manual (AFM) to provide the flight crew with runaway horizontal stabilizer trim procedures to
follow under certain conditions."

This only requirement was to "revising" the "flight manual". There is no training requirement. And no time for the pilots to understand the revisited flight manual in the workload and the stress caused by the MCAS when the single operating AoA fail with a high value.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:16 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Manual flight skills need to be improved Worldwide and if that isn't a learning out of the grounding that is a real shame.

The 737-8/9 MAX grounding is not caused by the lack of manual flight skills !
All the safety regulation agencies to date have officially focused only on the 737-8/9 MAX design and certification, not on manual flight skills.
JT610 and ET302 crashed due to unrealistic expectation on the pilots to safely mitigate with a untrained procedure a new failure mode specific to the 737-8/9 MAX.


Coversely, three supremely qualified pilots from oneof the most advanced nations on Earth, and home to Airbus, killed 270 people despite the very realistic expectation that they would be able to fly a plane manually out of a situation they learned on Day 1 of Flight School. And yet they just pancaked right into the Atlantic Ocean after 6 minutes of staring at the computers and disco lights. Every single professional pilot in the world understands the need for more training but the airlines and the manufacturers don't want to pay for it. The MAX pilots were fighting against a defect in the automation, that's what makes it so easy to dismiss the call for training. You guys are just as bad as you claim Rev and Morris to be. The airlines demand perfectly simple cockpits and software that any dummy can pretend to fly and both manufacturers and their airline customers have now proven that the lack of training exposes the fact that without the perfect automation the problem gets exposed and people die. I'll say this, the one thing not in this debate is any blame on the airlines. They're the ones pushing for training on a new type to take little more than reading a fortune cookie. Who came up with the idea that training for 30 mines soon an iPad was a good idea? I bet SW and Ryanair were in that room when it happened. It's atrocious and the FAA and EASA should stand up in this regard.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:29 pm

Maritime accidents via investigations going back not just to sailing days but rowing days. Blame and responsibility are, in affect, multiplied not divided. When ships collide the assumption of investigators is that both parties may be, in essence, 100 percent responsible. Investigations look at immediate causes, underlying causes, and any sort of causes that might be imagined.

Fascinating accounts of the collisions involving the Fitzgerald and McCain are available. Blame and responsibility were assessed from the lowly night watchman (a highly respected job on any navy ship I have been on) onto a number of organizations in Washington DC. Simplistic condemnations of any one person or organisation have not been accepted. Out of political concerns some were what might be called unindicted conspirators and went unnamed.

Don't be simplistic. Your reputation will suffer. The two accidents we are looking at involve a multitude of complex systems, person, organisation, and companies.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:32 pm

morrisond wrote:
snowkarl wrote:
The reason people don't want to give you and Morrisond (& co) this 'inch' is because you not only saying it was a small part of the crash, but the MAIN factor - when this is so obviously not the case and not even relevant to the discussion anymore.

The ONLY reason the plane crashed is the software and hardware design flaws that Boeing not only implemented, but lied about and hid from customers, airines and PILOTS. This is undeniable fact however you spin it.

Proof is in the extremely easy comparison to the similar NG aircraft: they are not crashing left and right like the MAX did - despite having THE SAME TRAINING AND PILOTS - it was the ENTIRE reason Boeing even designed the MAX with the flaws - so there would be no difference in practice.


I am not saying the main reason the plane's crashed is the Pilot's. Please stop trying to imply something I am not.

Previously I think said something along the lines that Lionair was 90% Boeing/Regulators (with the Majority being Boeing) and 10% Lionair Training/Pilots (if something tries to kill you 22 times maybe you should turn it off) whereas ET I put About 50% Boeing/Regulators and 40% ET Training/10% Pilots - with the big culprit ET's training system.

Pilot's can't learn what they aren't taught. From news articles it appears the extent of ET's training on MCAS procedures was sending the procedure to it's Pilot's in an email that did not even require a read receipt and only after multiple prompts from Boeing and some of it's own Pilot's who took the time to understand the problem.

If there is an issue with a plane in your fleet sending an email is not symptomatic of a good training system. At minimum this should have required a lot more than an email and should have required sign off from all of ET's pilots that it was fully understood - either through face to face discussions with the check pilots or a sim session to go through the procedure as well as they could of. Even though MCAS was not available in the sims they could have at least practised the procedure and put the plane out of trim auto throttle fully engaged and practised how to get out of that.

This was ET's responsibility to ensure that its pilots were sufficiently trained to deal with an MCAS emergency but no matter how bad ET's training was it does absolve Pilot's from knowing all they can about the Aircraft they are entrusted to fly and how to deal with any potential issues - especially when there has been recent fatalities. In the scale of emergency's it should not have been that big of a deal compared to something like an in-flight fire or explosive decompression.

NG's aren't crashing left and right because the Automation is working and rarely fails to expose the lack of skills. Boeing got the NG right but screwed up MCAS implementation.

Boeing's bad design is not the only reason ET crashed - but the vast Majority of why LionAir crashed.

How confident would you feel on a Flight in instrument conditions with a non-functioning Auto-pilot with a lot of pilots who have almost zero current experience with hand flying skills? Auto pilots do fail.

Manual flight skills need to be improved Worldwide and if that isn't a learning out of the grounding that is a real shame.

Perhaps a reminder of some of the responses last time you pushed your diatribe.

The JT pilots had no knowledge of MCAS and could obviously not diagnose what the problem was. It is just as likely as anything you can postulate that the Electric Manual Trim appeared to be the only thing that was keeping them in the air, in which case turning it off would not necessarily be seen as a good move.

Before we get into ET, it is necessary to remind you that the thing should have been grounded after JT when the Boeing/FAA review, according to reports, found the MCAS system to be "dangerous", of "high Risk" of recurrence, and in the FAAs own calculation the numbers could not be sustained for longer that "10 months". In your terms, Boeing/FAA are culpable to the highest degree.

The issued EAD does not mention MCAS or its function directly and Boeing only released a brief functional description some days later, under pressure from pilots and others. Boeing have not offered anything to anyone as far as I can see, throughout this whole saga, and I find no evidence that Boeing offered anything, or pressed Ethiopian, or their pilots to do anything, contrary to what you suggest. If you have a source for this please post it.

As you have been advised by posters knowledgeable in commercial airline operations, email notification of such things as EAD is normal practice. We have established that the EAD was correctly added to the ET FCOM in accordance with established practice, despite miss-information to the contrary.

Despite Ethiopian being one of very few who had possession of a MAX simulator (only becoming available late 2018/early 2019). It transpires it did not have the capability to simulate MCAS (not to mention trim wheel loads) even though MCAS has been fitted since EIS ~18 months earlier. The simulator training syllabus (including NG) did not include runaway stabiliser, even, until ~February 2019. Exclusion of this functionality is parked at Boeings doors I'm sad to say.

The pilot, who you malign, is characterised by people who new him as conscientious and thorough and would turn up much earlier that required for his rostered flights to ensure he picked up anything new and assure he was fully informed on the a/c before taking to the sky. Not quite what some would have us believe.

Have fun on the new thread. Bye.

Ray
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:43 pm

wingman wrote:
Coversely, three supremely qualified pilots from oneof the most advanced nations on Earth, and home to Airbus, killed 270 people despite the very realistic expectation that they would be able to fly a plane manually out of a situation they learned on Day 1 of Flight School. And yet they just pancaked right into the Atlantic Ocean after 6 minutes of staring at the computers and disco lights. Every single professional pilot in the world understands the need for more training but the airlines and the manufacturers don't want to pay for it. The MAX pilots were fighting against a defect in the automation, that's what makes it so easy to dismiss the call for training. You guys are just as bad as you claim Rev and Morris to be. The airlines demand perfectly simple cockpits and software that any dummy can pretend to fly and both manufacturers and their airline customers have now proven that the lack of training exposes the fact that without the perfect automation the problem gets exposed and people die. I'll say this, the one thing not in this debate is any blame on the airlines. They're the ones pushing for training on a new type to take little more than reading a fortune cookie. Who came up with the idea that training for 30 mines soon an iPad was a good idea? I bet SW and Ryanair were in that room when it happened. It's atrocious and the FAA and EASA should stand up in this regard.

AF447 was mainly caused by the lake of training, the A330 was not grounded and the training was improved. How can you compare this to the 737-8/9 MAX that is precisely the exact opposite ? The pilots did not get more training and the 737-8/9 MAX was grounded and improved.

You are confusing the airlines demands with the safety regulation certification process. No airlines have realistically ever demanded unsafe aircraft. The safety regulation is very clear on the responsibility of the aircraft manufacturer to design safe system, analyse the failure mode, assess the failure risks, define mitigation procedure, and define training requirement for the procedures.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:04 pm

snowkarl wrote:
The reason people don't want to give you and Morrisond (& co) this 'inch' is because you not only saying it was a small part of the crash, but the MAIN factor - when this is so obviously not the case and not even relevant to the discussion anymore.

Since you feel free to speak for Mr. Morrisond, I'll do the same and say I have not seen any point at which he's said pilots were the main factor for the crash nor any place where he has said Boeing is not the main factor for the crash.

snowkarl wrote:
The ONLY reason the plane crashed is the software and hardware design flaws that Boeing not only implemented, but lied about and hid from customers, airines and PILOTS. This is undeniable fact however you spin it.

Sorry, but that is your rendition of the events, which you are entitled to feel is the correct one, but IMO is far too simplistic.

Mine goes along the lines of (a) Boeing designed, and implemented a deeply flawed MCAS 1.0 system but (b) had expectations that pilots could deal with any issues related to that system failing.

You seem to feel (a) is the only aspect worthy of consideration, whereas I feel (b) is also worthy of consideration.

I would write more about what I think, but I'm not sure it would be appreciated in the current climate.

Some may want to read an earlier post from this topic I wrote at viewtopic.php?p=21361531#p21361021 for some insight on (b).

It is based on the leaked AA Pilots / Mike Sinnett conversation, which is one of the only places where we get uncensored statements, free of both pro and anti Boeing spin.

snowkarl wrote:
Proof is in the extremely easy comparison to the similar NG aircraft: they are not crashing left and right like the MAX did - despite having THE SAME TRAINING AND PILOTS - it was the ENTIRE reason Boeing even designed the MAX with the flaws - so there would be no difference in practice.

Again, IMO, an over simplified rendition. NG also crashed in circumstances that has relevance, given NG was crashed by one of the same airlines who also crashed a MAX.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
snowkarl wrote:
Proof is in the extremely easy comparison to the similar NG aircraft: they are not crashing left and right like the MAX did - despite having THE SAME TRAINING AND PILOTS - it was the ENTIRE reason Boeing even designed the MAX with the flaws - so there would be no difference in practice.

Again, IMO, an over simplified rendition. NG also crashed in circumstances that has relevance, given NG was crashed by one of the same airlines who also crashed a MAX.

The 737-600/700/800/900 NG did have several incidents and accidents, including fatal crashes, and wasn't grounded:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Boeing_737_Next_Gen

Guess why ? The cause was not the same as for the 737-8/9 MAX, so the actions to recover flight safety was not the same. That simple and factually supported by anything you can read from official safety regulation agencies around the world to date.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:20 pm

wingman wrote:
Every single professional pilot in the world understands the need for more training but the airlines and the manufacturers don't want to pay for it.

On one hand - crash rate steadily goes down over past decades, meaning the current system works. One may argue that decay in crash rate is actually well correlated with skygods retirement....
Second - everything has a price. That includes the price people are willing to pay for risk reduction. It is not cheap manufacturers or airlines - it is basic human nature. You can estimate cost efficiency of extra training - and I doubt justification will be there.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:43 pm

'The final report on the crash of a Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX jet that killed 189 people last year will be published in the first half of November, Indonesia's civil aviation authority said on Wednesday.
"The draft was already sent to the relevant parties on August 24, 2019," KNKT spokesman Anggo Anurogo said in a statement.
"The parties have 60 days to respond to the final draft."
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/in ... ar-AAHtY4x

Slipped under the radar me thinks.

Ray
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:04 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Ok maybe training was a bad word - how about "it was ET's responsibility to make sure it's Pilot's understood the EAD" and how to deal with it.

Still no, sorry.
Training is the required tool to ensure that a safety critical procedure that must be implemented within 3 seconds is well understood, detected, and executed by the pilots. This is part of the safety regulation certification and this must be done by the aircraft manufacturer. The EAD should have required specific training for the new specific failure mode of the 737-8/9 MAX, but it did not. This is factually written into the EAD:

"This AD requires revising certificate limitations and operating procedures of the airplane
flight manual (AFM) to provide the flight crew with runaway horizontal stabilizer trim procedures to
follow under certain conditions."

This only requirement was to "revising" the "flight manual". There is no training requirement. And no time for the pilots to understand the revisited flight manual in the workload and the stress caused by the MCAS when the single operating AoA fail with a high value.


So you are basically saying that ET and ET's Pilots had no responsibility to understand the EAD? What was Boeing supposed to do? Imprint it telepathically on their brains?

Come on - Get real.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:09 pm

New FAA chief Stephen Dickson flew the 737 sim on Thursday and met with Boeing officials.

One part I found that may or may not be controversial:

Dickson did not hint at any change in the FAA's approach to aircraft certification either at that hearing or in a telephone interview.

"The concept of delegation itself is a sound one," he said Thursday. "It makes the FAA a more effective regulator, and it makes the manufacturer safer because we're able to share data in real time."

But, Dickson said, he will wait to see recommendations from a special Transportation Department committee and others before making any decisions about FAA's process for certifying new aircraft.

It also suggests that industry sources expect FAA to unground the plane by end of year but EASA is expected to take about three months longer and may require additional changes to the plane.

Ref: https://news.yahoo.com/faa-chief-meets- ... 17229.html
Last edited by Revelation on Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:10 pm

kalvado wrote:
wingman wrote:
Every single professional pilot in the world understands the need for more training but the airlines and the manufacturers don't want to pay for it.

On one hand - crash rate steadily goes down over past decades, meaning the current system works. One may argue that decay in crash rate is actually well correlated with skygods retirement....
Second - everything has a price. That includes the price people are willing to pay for risk reduction. It is not cheap manufacturers or airlines - it is basic human nature. You can estimate cost efficiency of extra training - and I doubt justification will be there.


You would be on elf the first coming on here stating you can't put a price on a person's life.

The crash stats have been going as the planes have been getting that much more reliable - Pilot's are thankfully not being faced as with as many critical situations.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:38 pm

morrisond wrote:
Pilot's are thankfully not being faced as with as many critical situations.

Airlines in turn are doing everything they can do to monetize the advancements in safety by hiring low time pilots, avoiding spending on training and forbidding hand flying, and then hoping the holes in the swiss cheese don't line up.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:39 pm

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
wingman wrote:
Every single professional pilot in the world understands the need for more training but the airlines and the manufacturers don't want to pay for it.

On one hand - crash rate steadily goes down over past decades, meaning the current system works. One may argue that decay in crash rate is actually well correlated with skygods retirement....
Second - everything has a price. That includes the price people are willing to pay for risk reduction. It is not cheap manufacturers or airlines - it is basic human nature. You can estimate cost efficiency of extra training - and I doubt justification will be there.


You would be on elf the first coming on here stating you can't put a price on a person's life.

The crash stats have been going as the planes have been getting that much more reliable - Pilot's are thankfully not being faced as with as many critical situations.


Wow - I really have to take the time to check for typo's. Bloody auto-correct.

The first line is "You would be one of the first" and then I missed "down" in "The crash stats have been going down"

Apologies.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:09 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Ok maybe training was a bad word - how about "it was ET's responsibility to make sure it's Pilot's understood the EAD" and how to deal with it.

Still no, sorry.
Training is the required tool to ensure that a safety critical procedure that must be implemented within 3 seconds is well understood, detected, and executed by the pilots. This is part of the safety regulation certification and this must be done by the aircraft manufacturer. The EAD should have required specific training for the new specific failure mode of the 737-8/9 MAX, but it did not. This is factually written into the EAD:

"This AD requires revising certificate limitations and operating procedures of the airplane
flight manual (AFM) to provide the flight crew with runaway horizontal stabilizer trim procedures to
follow under certain conditions."

This only requirement was to "revising" the "flight manual". There is no training requirement. And no time for the pilots to understand the revisited flight manual in the workload and the stress caused by the MCAS when the single operating AoA fail with a high value.


So you are basically saying that ET and ET's Pilots had no responsibility to understand the EAD? What was Boeing supposed to do? Imprint it telepathically on their brains?

Come on - Get real.

Come on, and provides evidence that the EAD require anything other than revisiting the flight manual.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
New FAA chief Stephen Dickson flew the 737 sim on Thursday and met with Boeing officials.

One part I found that may or may not be controversial:

Dickson did not hint at any change in the FAA's approach to aircraft certification either at that hearing or in a telephone interview.

"The concept of delegation itself is a sound one," he said Thursday. "It makes the FAA a more effective regulator, and it makes the manufacturer safer because we're able to share data in real time."

But, Dickson said, he will wait to see recommendations from a special Transportation Department committee and others before making any decisions about FAA's process for certifying new aircraft.

It also suggests that industry sources expect FAA to unground the plane by end of year but EASA is expected to take about three months longer and may require additional changes to the plane.

Ref: https://news.yahoo.com/faa-chief-meets- ... 17229.html


There is also the Twitt

https://mobile.twitter.com/FAANews/stat ... 4854071297

"Stephen Dickson underscoring the FAA's unwavering commitment to safely return the aircraft to service"...
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:37 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Still no, sorry.
Training is the required tool to ensure that a safety critical procedure that must be implemented within 3 seconds is well understood, detected, and executed by the pilots. This is part of the safety regulation certification and this must be done by the aircraft manufacturer. The EAD should have required specific training for the new specific failure mode of the 737-8/9 MAX, but it did not. This is factually written into the EAD:

"This AD requires revising certificate limitations and operating procedures of the airplane
flight manual (AFM) to provide the flight crew with runaway horizontal stabilizer trim procedures to
follow under certain conditions."

This only requirement was to "revising" the "flight manual". There is no training requirement. And no time for the pilots to understand the revisited flight manual in the workload and the stress caused by the MCAS when the single operating AoA fail with a high value.


So you are basically saying that ET and ET's Pilots had no responsibility to understand the EAD? What was Boeing supposed to do? Imprint it telepathically on their brains?

Come on - Get real.

Come on, and provides evidence that the EAD require anything other than revisiting the flight manual.


And so Pilot's are not responsible for knowing it inside out? If you were a MAX pilot you would consider it okay to not be intimately familiar with that document and a revision that could possibly help prevent the loss of life?

Really?

If that is considered an okay attitude in aviation today I'm never flying commercially again.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:03 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:

So you are basically saying that ET and ET's Pilots had no responsibility to understand the EAD? What was Boeing supposed to do? Imprint it telepathically on their brains?

Come on - Get real.

Come on, and provides evidence that the EAD require anything other than revisiting the flight manual.


And so Pilot's are not responsible for knowing it inside out? If you were a MAX pilot you would consider it okay to not be intimately familiar with that document and a revision that could possibly help prevent the loss of life?

Really?

If that is considered an okay attitude in aviation today I'm never flying commercially again.

Clearly the actual safety regulation assign to the aircraft manufacturer the responsibility to known the inside out and to define the required training to safely recognize and mitigate a critical control surface multiple erratic moves within the expected 3 seconds delay while workload and stress limit the human performance. Just revisiting the flight manual is not enough, as the reality has shown.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:46 am

morrisond wrote:

And so Pilot's are not responsible for knowing it inside out? If you were a MAX pilot you would consider it okay to not be intimately familiar with that document and a revision that could possibly help prevent the loss of life?

Really?

If that is considered an okay attitude in aviation today I'm never flying commercially again.

If you think about it, even Boeing engineers don't really know aircraft inside out, as MCAS EAD have proven.
Pilots are not qualified for that, period. A good engineering background is a bare minimum to understand such complex machinery. Heck, I think my background is pretty good - and I cannot say I know my own car (really primitive machine compared to the airplane) quite well. I would be surprised if even one out of 10 drivers knows how transmission works beyond "there are some gears inside". Are you in those 10% yourself?
Pilot's primary skills these days seem to be system management, crew management, situation awareness - and the airplane can almost be a black box with some knobs and switches.
 
md11sdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:39 am

I know this is a very serious topic, which has had massive financial consequences for Boeing, it's suppliers and airlines around the world. But... We are now TEN DAYS away from the start of Q4 2019!!
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:52 am

kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:

And so Pilot's are not responsible for knowing it inside out? If you were a MAX pilot you would consider it okay to not be intimately familiar with that document and a revision that could possibly help prevent the loss of life?

Really?

If that is considered an okay attitude in aviation today I'm never flying commercially again.

If you think about it, even Boeing engineers don't really know aircraft inside out, as MCAS EAD have proven.
Pilots are not qualified for that, period. A good engineering background is a bare minimum to understand such complex machinery. Heck, I think my background is pretty good - and I cannot say I know my own car (really primitive machine compared to the airplane) quite well. I would be surprised if even one out of 10 drivers knows how transmission works beyond "there are some gears inside". Are you in those 10% yourself?
Pilot's primary skills these days seem to be system management, crew management, situation awareness - and the airplane can almost be a black box with some knobs and switches.


So are you and Pixelflight basically saying you don't believe the ET Pilot's needed to take any action to understand EAD that was issued in regards to the Lionair crash?

So if the airplane isn't perfect from Day 1 the Pilot's aren't responsible for learning about revisions to the manuals and procedures that might save their passengers lives?
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:06 am

morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
morrisond wrote:

And so Pilot's are not responsible for knowing it inside out? If you were a MAX pilot you would consider it okay to not be intimately familiar with that document and a revision that could possibly help prevent the loss of life?

Really?

If that is considered an okay attitude in aviation today I'm never flying commercially again.

If you think about it, even Boeing engineers don't really know aircraft inside out, as MCAS EAD have proven.
Pilots are not qualified for that, period. A good engineering background is a bare minimum to understand such complex machinery. Heck, I think my background is pretty good - and I cannot say I know my own car (really primitive machine compared to the airplane) quite well. I would be surprised if even one out of 10 drivers knows how transmission works beyond "there are some gears inside". Are you in those 10% yourself?
Pilot's primary skills these days seem to be system management, crew management, situation awareness - and the airplane can almost be a black box with some knobs and switches.


So are you and Pixelflight basically saying you don't believe the ET Pilot's needed to take any action to understand EAD that was issued in regards to the Lionair crash?

So if the airplane isn't perfect from Day 1 the Pilot's aren't responsible for learning about revisions to the manuals and procedures that might save their passengers lives?
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:43 am

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Come on - Get real.

Come on, and provides evidence that the EAD require anything other than revisiting the flight manual.


At the time it was a feisty "RTFM" referencing a manual that was not helpful from Boeing's side.
In your face arrogance imho.
Murphy is an optimist
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:18 am

RickNRoll wrote:
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.


Talk about straw men. Don't think anyone has claimed that sim time would not have been helpful. And the "harder to deal with" was the situation tested after mistakes were already made.

The debate is not if sim time would have been helpful. The question is if it was necessary. It should not have been since the pilots should have had the skills necessary to follow the EAD if it ever was needed.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:34 am

From the testing done by others after the second crash under accurate simulator conditions, simulator time would be required for all pilots. The startle factor and urgency for rapid and accurate reactions were more acute than people assumed. The EAB was quite disingenuous.
 
SimonL
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:06 am

ET pilots disabled MCAS after the 2nd time it was activated. So apparently they we're very well aware of what was going on and what to do. But since they during that time lost control over the air speed, which is understandable since they where surrounded by mountains and with the GPWS activated. They wanted to get away from the ground. After that the lack of ability to trim etc put them in a situation where their training didnt offered them any solution to the situation so they had to improvise.

When the shit hits the fan you cannot expect people to make perfect decisions at exactly the right time. It is for ex fully understandable that the ET crew didnt checked their airspeed when MCAS kicked in because in that situation you wont stare at your instruments and your brain is too overloaded to process the information anyway. But thats why you need to design systems that allows for the imperfect decision making in stressful situations. If they would have been able to trim the plane manually they would probably have made it but now the system threw another obstacle at them, preventing them to regain control.
 
Ugly51
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:50 am

Boeing told no one about MCAS. They are ultimately responsible for both aviation disasters. This is a long way from over for Boeing.
The 737 Max, 777X, KC-46??? These problems need to be resolved or Boeings credibility is gone.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:16 am

RickNRoll wrote:
morrisond wrote:
kalvado wrote:
If you think about it, even Boeing engineers don't really know aircraft inside out, as MCAS EAD have proven.
Pilots are not qualified for that, period. A good engineering background is a bare minimum to understand such complex machinery. Heck, I think my background is pretty good - and I cannot say I know my own car (really primitive machine compared to the airplane) quite well. I would be surprised if even one out of 10 drivers knows how transmission works beyond "there are some gears inside". Are you in those 10% yourself?
Pilot's primary skills these days seem to be system management, crew management, situation awareness - and the airplane can almost be a black box with some knobs and switches.


So are you and Pixelflight basically saying you don't believe the ET Pilot's needed to take any action to understand EAD that was issued in regards to the Lionair crash?

So if the airplane isn't perfect from Day 1 the Pilot's aren't responsible for learning about revisions to the manuals and procedures that might save their passengers lives?
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. C. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

"Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful"
The simulator training is a requirement that Boeing have the responsibility to set to comply with the aircraft safety regulation regarding a safety critical control surface.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:39 am

PixelFlight wrote:
The simulator training is a requirement that Boeing have the responsibility to set to comply with the aircraft safety regulation regarding a safety critical control surface.


When was the first simulator instance available that correctly modeled MCAS behavior ( inclusive of presenting correctly faults in its data path) ? who got it?

IMU ET had a "MAX" simulator freshly available that did not offer full compatibility to the MAX.
They could even have chained their crews down in the simulator. it would have made no difference.
Murphy is an optimist
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:59 am

WIederling wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The simulator training is a requirement that Boeing have the responsibility to set to comply with the aircraft safety regulation regarding a safety critical control surface.


When was the first simulator instance available that correctly modeled MCAS behavior ( inclusive of presenting correctly faults in its data path) ? who got it?

IMU ET had a "MAX" simulator freshly available that did not offer full compatibility to the MAX.
They could even have chained their crews down in the simulator. it would have made no difference.

I would suspect since the new functionality has not been released yet, the answer is none.

Ray
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:05 am

XRAYretired wrote:
WIederling wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The simulator training is a requirement that Boeing have the responsibility to set to comply with the aircraft safety regulation regarding a safety critical control surface.


When was the first simulator instance available that correctly modeled MCAS behavior ( inclusive of presenting correctly faults in its data path) ? who got it?

IMU ET had a "MAX" simulator freshly available that did not offer full compatibility to the MAX.
They could even have chained their crews down in the simulator. it would have made no difference.

I would suspect since the new functionality has not been released yet, the answer is none.

Not my question.

I was looking at MAX and its MCAS as released initially. "V1.0".
One would expect that simulators sold as "MAX conforming" would model that feature in its released from.

Is it the usual run of things that when new types are introduced no conforming adequate simulator is available?
Murphy is an optimist
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:41 am

WIederling wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
WIederling wrote:

When was the first simulator instance available that correctly modeled MCAS behavior ( inclusive of presenting correctly faults in its data path) ? who got it?

IMU ET had a "MAX" simulator freshly available that did not offer full compatibility to the MAX.
They could even have chained their crews down in the simulator. it would have made no difference.

I would suspect since the new functionality has not been released yet, the answer is none.

Not my question.

I was looking at MAX and its MCAS as released initially. "V1.0".
One would expect that simulators sold as "MAX conforming" would model that feature in its released from.

Is it the usual run of things that when new types are introduced no conforming adequate simulator is available?


The answer is none included MCAS V1.0 functionality. I doubt any were upgraded to include MCAS V1.0 functionality since V2.0 was in development when this was disclosed (post JT602, Nov 2018, with V2.0 projected initially for January 2019).

Ray
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:42 am

Ugly51 wrote:
Boeing told no one about MCAS. They are ultimately responsible for both aviation disasters. This is a long way from over for Boeing.
The 737 Max, 777X, KC-46??? These problems need to be resolved or Boeings credibility is gone.


Any development of a new aircraft must have its time, 8 years on average. Nothing to do with credibility.

When the A320 crashed in Absheim in 1988 there was NO Twitter, FB, YouTube and INTERNET to express [its sarcasm.] :roll:
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:01 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Ugly51 wrote:
Boeing told no one about MCAS. They are ultimately responsible for both aviation disasters. This is a long way from over for Boeing.
The 737 Max, 777X, KC-46??? These problems need to be resolved or Boeings credibility is gone.


Any development of a new aircraft must have its time, 8 years on average. Nothing to do with credibility.

When the A320 crashed in Absheim in 1988 there was NO Twitter, FB, YouTube and INTERNET to express [its sarcasm.] :roll:


nothing to do with FB and twitter
a accident during an airshow is seriouse as any other and has to be investigated properly

but the MAX is a complete other animal
boeing knew that problem and hided it
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:18 am

MSPNWA wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.


Talk about straw men. Don't think anyone has claimed that sim time would not have been helpful. And the "harder to deal with" was the situation tested after mistakes were already made.

The debate is not if sim time would have been helpful. The question is if it was necessary. It should not have been since the pilots should have had the skills necessary to follow the EAD if it ever was needed.

Now if the EAD wS written by competent engineers with understanding of possible issues and complications arising from forces on yoke and trim wheels. Something as trivial as an actual test in a sim...
This is impossible to blame on management, this is squarely an engineering and test piloting failure; and not of a single person but of everyone in a large cohort handling aftermath of Lion crash at Boeing. I am not a fan of criminal prosecution for professional mistakes, but if criminal is appropriate anywhere in MAX saga, it is right there.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:04 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
The answer is none included MCAS V1.0 functionality. I doubt any were upgraded to include MCAS V1.0 functionality since V2.0 was in development when this was disclosed (post JT602, Nov 2018, with V2.0 projected initially for January 2019).

Ray

So those professional pilots who have put out videos and statements about their performance in dealing with MCAS ver 1.0 were using NG simulators and doing their best to mimic what they thought MCAS would do and how they would respond?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:26 pm

par13del wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
The answer is none included MCAS V1.0 functionality. I doubt any were upgraded to include MCAS V1.0 functionality since V2.0 was in development when this was disclosed (post JT602, Nov 2018, with V2.0 projected initially for January 2019).

Ray

So those professional pilots who have put out videos and statements about their performance in dealing with MCAS ver 1.0 were using NG simulators and doing their best to mimic what they thought MCAS would do and how they would respond?


YES - and those simulator tests were not done at the point of MCAS fist kicking in. They were simulating what happened at the end of the flights once the planes were overspeed and pointing at the ground.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:27 pm

kalvado wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.


Talk about straw men. Don't think anyone has claimed that sim time would not have been helpful. And the "harder to deal with" was the situation tested after mistakes were already made.

The debate is not if sim time would have been helpful. The question is if it was necessary. It should not have been since the pilots should have had the skills necessary to follow the EAD if it ever was needed.

Now if the EAD wS written by competent engineers with understanding of possible issues and complications arising from forces on yoke and trim wheels. Something as trivial as an actual test in a sim...
This is impossible to blame on management, this is squarely an engineering and test piloting failure; and not of a single person but of everyone in a large cohort handling aftermath of Lion crash at Boeing. I am not a fan of criminal prosecution for professional mistakes, but if criminal is appropriate anywhere in MAX saga, it is right there.


Then you better start rewriting all the manuals for all aircraft. In general they are all that complicated and somehow they figure out how to follow the procedures - assuming they take the time to understand them in the first place.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:40 pm

SimonL wrote:
ET pilots disabled MCAS after the 2nd time it was activated. So apparently they we're very well aware of what was going on and what to do. But since they during that time lost control over the air speed, which is understandable since they where surrounded by mountains and with the GPWS activated. They wanted to get away from the ground. After that the lack of ability to trim etc put them in a situation where their training didnt offered them any solution to the situation so they had to improvise.

When the shit hits the fan you cannot expect people to make perfect decisions at exactly the right time. It is for ex fully understandable that the ET crew didnt checked their airspeed when MCAS kicked in because in that situation you wont stare at your instruments and your brain is too overloaded to process the information anyway. But thats why you need to design systems that allows for the imperfect decision making in stressful situations. If they would have been able to trim the plane manually they would probably have made it but now the system threw another obstacle at them, preventing them to regain control.


They were 7,000' above ground - there were no mountains in front of them - in fact the only thing in front of them was a little thing called the Great Rift Valley which dropped away another 3-4,000'.

Airspeed is displayed on the instruments - along with horns blaring "Overspeed, Overspeed".

If they were able to trim the plane they might have accelerated further and ripped the wings off due to stress on the frame.

Yes you can't expect people to make perfect decisions but airspeed and attitude are the most important/basic parts of flight. It should not be beyond the abilities of any pilot to keep them in a reasonable range. If your primary instruments aren't working - that is why there are backups.

They are supposed to face situations like this in the sims all the time (multiple systems failures and horns going off) so that if faced with them in the real world it's not a shock - however if the training revolves around what button to push to fix it/procedure to look up in the manual and not taking manual control of the aircraft we will have more fatalities when Automation fails again in the future.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:44 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
morrisond wrote:

So are you and Pixelflight basically saying you don't believe the ET Pilot's needed to take any action to understand EAD that was issued in regards to the Lionair crash?

So if the airplane isn't perfect from Day 1 the Pilot's aren't responsible for learning about revisions to the manuals and procedures that might save their passengers lives?
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. C. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

"Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful"
The simulator training is a requirement that Boeing have the responsibility to set to comply with the aircraft safety regulation regarding a safety critical control surface.


So I take it you are a No to my question "So are you and Pixelflight basically saying you don't believe the ET Pilot's needed to take any action to understand EAD that was issued in regards to the Lionair crash?"

It's all Boeing's fault the pilot's didn't know and fully understand the EAD? No personal responsibility for ET or the Pilot's?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2178
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q3 2019

Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:54 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
Piling up the strawmen there. The pilots thought they had the necessary knowledge to cope and tried to act appropriately. C. If it had been scale. Other pilots in a sim with MCAS modelling noted it was harder to deal with than expected. But this has all been said many times before so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

"Some time in a simulator that had MCAS behaviour modelled accurately would have probably been useful"
The simulator training is a requirement that Boeing have the responsibility to set to comply with the aircraft safety regulation regarding a safety critical control surface.


So I take it you are a No to my question "So are you and Pixelflight basically saying you don't believe the ET Pilot's needed to take any action to understand EAD that was issued in regards to the Lionair crash?"

It's all Boeing's fault the pilot's didn't know and fully understand the EAD? No personal responsibility for ET or the Pilot's?

ET pilots understood EAD to the extent it could be expected: treat MCAS as runaway, flip trim switch. Fine print convoluted wording in memory item? well...
. Lets see. Do you have a credit card? (I assume you do). It is your responsibility to read and understand the cardholder agreement. Lets check if you did that.
What are the fees and APR on cash advance taken in ATM of a foreign branch of your bank?

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