N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:28 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Spar wrote:
It's clear to me that you're living in a land of imaginary scenarios, not actual experience.

If you were to give that sentence a moment's thought you would see how meaningless and without correlation the comparison between whatever undefined "defensive gun use" is and actual deaths of people.

The lives which were saved need to be adjusted for the number of those lives that were put in jeopardy by the near unrestrained availability of guns - which is what put those lives in danger in the first place. The number derived from that adjustment will be about zero.

If you really knew anything about this subject, you would be very aware that the best way to survive a gunfight is to not get in one.

This is a (meaningless) strawman argument, which was born out of the need to justify a cliche. Not very good debate technique.



You are free to choose to be a defenseless victim, just like I am free to choose not to be one. Once again, I've treated dozens of gunshot victims. Nothing I've seen or done is "imaginary." When your home is being broken into in the middle of the night, the thought that the police might be 15 minutes away is not comforting.


That’s what shotguns and handguns are for. Excellent commentary here from Adm. Mike Mullen-ret:

I spent my entire professional life taking up arms in defense of our country, serving in wars from Vietnam to Afghanistan, and ending my service as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. During the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I saw how our ground forces and special forces sought to improve the precision and lethality of their weapons, which took enemy lives and saved their own. Such is the nature of war.

But these weapons are for war; they are not for sport...Now is the time for courage. We must take steps to make our country and its citizens safe from this growing national-security threat by banning these assault weapons with their large magazines, and by putting in place comprehensive and universal background checks without loopholes. The United States accounts for some 4 percent of the global population but holds about 45 percent of the civilian firearms in the world. We are way out of balance.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... r-children


The AR-15 is an ideal home-defense weapon. You had less risk of wall penetration and damage to innocent bystanders, and it is easy to use and aim. Moreover, our soldiers don't carry semi-automatic sporting rifles...they carry fully automatic assault rifles.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9852
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:03 pm

N1611B wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N1611B wrote:


You are free to choose to be a defenseless victim, just like I am free to choose not to be one. Once again, I've treated dozens of gunshot victims. Nothing I've seen or done is "imaginary." When your home is being broken into in the middle of the night, the thought that the police might be 15 minutes away is not comforting.


That’s what shotguns and handguns are for. Excellent commentary here from Adm. Mike Mullen-ret:

I spent my entire professional life taking up arms in defense of our country, serving in wars from Vietnam to Afghanistan, and ending my service as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. During the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I saw how our ground forces and special forces sought to improve the precision and lethality of their weapons, which took enemy lives and saved their own. Such is the nature of war.

But these weapons are for war; they are not for sport...Now is the time for courage. We must take steps to make our country and its citizens safe from this growing national-security threat by banning these assault weapons with their large magazines, and by putting in place comprehensive and universal background checks without loopholes. The United States accounts for some 4 percent of the global population but holds about 45 percent of the civilian firearms in the world. We are way out of balance.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... r-children


The AR-15 is an ideal home-defense weapon. You had less risk of wall penetration and damage to innocent bystanders, and it is easy to use and aim. Moreover, our soldiers don't carry semi-automatic sporting rifles...they carry fully automatic assault rifles.


That was not his point, but nice redirection.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
That’s what shotguns and handguns are for. Excellent commentary here from Adm. Mike Mullen-ret:


Nice article as usual by the Atlantic. But Mullen wasn't a warrior. He has a political agenda. Are you an SME in small arms employment, tactics? Pistols, rifles and shotguns have their place. There is no all-in-one tool. Right tool for the job. The AR is an accessorizable platform to meet multiple requirements. It isn't the boogeyman. Do you realize in 1965 you could buy a machine gun?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9852
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:16 pm

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
That’s what shotguns and handguns are for. Excellent commentary here from Adm. Mike Mullen-ret:


Nice article as usual by the Atlantic. But Mullen wasn't a warrior. He has a political agenda. Are you an SME in small arms employment, tactics? Pistols, rifles and shotguns have their place. There is no all-in-one tool. Right tool for the job. The AR is an accessorizable platform to meet multiple requirements. It isn't the boogeyman. Do you realize in 1965 you could buy a machine gun?


Man oh man you guys are rich - patriots are not warriors as soon as their personal beliefs don’t jive with yours. Nice divisiveness. Do you disagree with his JCS appointment by 43 as well?

I am not an SME but my family always had a shotgun and handgun in the house growing up, and we felt secure and competent enough with those, range sessions with my stepdad every three months to stay sharp. So I guess the logical counter question is: are you a shareholder in Strategic Armory Corps?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Man oh man you guys are rich - patriots are not warriors as soon as their personal beliefs don’t jive with yours. Nice divisiveness. Do you disagree with his JCS appointment by 43 as well?


Not raising the question of his patriotism. A shooter wouldn't know how to fly a plane, dive a submarine, or vice a versa. Let's stick with round holes and round pegs.

Aaron747 wrote:
I am not an SME but my family always had a shotgun and handgun in the house growing up, and we felt secure and competent enough with those, range sessions with my stepdad every three months to stay sharp.


I'll take that as a NO. Unless you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9852
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:35 pm

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Man oh man you guys are rich - patriots are not warriors as soon as their personal beliefs don’t jive with yours. Nice divisiveness. Do you disagree with his JCS appointment by 43 as well?


Not raising the question of his patriotism. A shooter wouldn't know how to fly a plane, dive a submarine, or vice a versa. Let's stick with round holes and round pegs.

Aaron747 wrote:
I am not an SME but my family always had a shotgun and handgun in the house growing up, and we felt secure and competent enough with those, range sessions with my stepdad every three months to stay sharp.


I'll take that as a NO. Unless you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.


Um, I responded in the negative, no need to be a child about it.

As for round holes and round pegs, given the breadth of Mullen’s assignments and command experience in eastern Europe and Afghanistan, I’m going to be far more respectful than you and make the logical deduction he knows more than you think about small arms deployments. And for the record: shooters can take flying lessons, so nice try at red herring there. The world is much more grey than your lot would have everyone believe.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Man oh man you guys are rich - patriots are not warriors as soon as their personal beliefs don’t jive with yours. Nice divisiveness. Do you disagree with his JCS appointment by 43 as well?


Not raising the question of his patriotism. A shooter wouldn't know how to fly a plane, dive a submarine, or vice a versa. Let's stick with round holes and round pegs.

Aaron747 wrote:
I am not an SME but my family always had a shotgun and handgun in the house growing up, and we felt secure and competent enough with those, range sessions with my stepdad every three months to stay sharp.


I'll take that as a NO. Unless you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.


Um, I responded in the negative, no need to be a child about it.

As for round holes and round pegs, given the breadth of Mullen’s assignments and command experience in eastern Europe and Afghanistan, I’m going to be far more respectful than you and make the logical deduction he knows more than you think about small arms deployments. And for the record: shooters can take flying lessons, so nice try at red herring there. The world is much more grey than your lot would have everyone believe.


I have many friends who are ex military and who own AR-15 style rifles for home defense, among other things. If we're going to take a general's word for it, we should also take the word of the actual boots on the ground that have much experience in such matters.
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

As for round holes and round pegs, given the breadth of Mullen’s assignments and command experience in eastern Europe and Afghanistan, I’m going to be far more respectful than you and make the logical deduction he knows more than you think about small arms deployments. And for the record: shooters can take flying lessons, so nice try at red herring there. The world is much more grey than your lot would have everyone believe.


Your respectful argument still comes up short. Yes, everyone can learn a new trade, but their bread and butter is being a shooter. Get Gen. Dick Clarke's perspective or RADM Collin Green. If you can pick and choose red herrings, so can anyone else.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1369
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Sweet! Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:58 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I wonder what his motivation was...
Image


You might mention - that was the gunman's own photo, created for and posted on his Facebook page.

There is a direct line between these xenophobia-motivated shootings and Trump's over-the-top racist and anti-immigrant rhetoric.

Your Liberal MSM has been lying to you. Like most conservatives, our President is not Racist and does not support hate groups. He has stated REPEATEDLY that in no way shape or form he is a racist, condemns hate groups and has proven he is not racist many times over the years by his actions. Of course these real facts about our President do not support Liberal MSM's false narrative so are not considered news worthy and don't get reported. So really, if he were a racist, he must be one of the worst racist in history.

The mental state of the shooter was why he did what he did and has nothing to do with his political affiliations. Same thing for the Dayton shooter. Both of those people were sociopaths and complete nut jobs. They both could have just as easily blamed their actions on the hypocrisy of Santa Clause or the Easter bunny.
 
Spar
Posts: 486
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:03 pm

N1611B wrote:
The AR-15 is an ideal home-defense weapon. You had less risk of wall penetration and damage to innocent bystanders, and it is easy to use and aim. Moreover, our soldiers don't carry semi-automatic sporting rifles...they carry fully automatic assault rifles.

US Army issue M-4s use a selector lever which doesn't have a full auto position, it has semi auto and three-round burst. Functionally, they are almost identical to what you say are "sporting rifles". In fact these home defense "sporting rifles" may be loaded with hotter ammunition than what the Army uses. Also, the Army isn't allowed to use hollow points, because they're banned by the Geneva Convention.

I hate to be pedantic but your "authoritative presentation" begs for rebuttal. If you'd ever taken anything that uses the .223 round out and shot into telephone books or such, you would know that a .223 has enormous of penetrating power: far more than most pistol ammo, with jacketed 9mm (Uzi ammunition) being an exception. I'm sure that you've gotten your information from some internet sites that have done selective demonstrations (not tests) intended from the beginning to prove a point and so are leading you to the selling of dubious information above.

I have personally done these kinds of experiments and I was awed by the penetrating power of the .223 round at the time. Here's a video that shows a guy demonstrating that the .223 (or .556 mm as you wish) will go through 5.5 inches of fiberboard. This is fiberboard, not gypsum. That reflects what I know to be true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfXsp5cNTno
Here's a .223 into and through 5/16 steel.
http://emptormaven.com/2007/06/steel-pe ... 3-bullets/

The idea that a .223 round will putter out after passing through a piece of sheetrock is ludicrous.

I don't know how the rest of these gun zealots rig their tests, but here's one of them that fudged the results by using hollow point ammunition which is definitely not the norm for .223 ammo.
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14 ... n-testing/
In showing their results they say: “The only calibers which did NOT exit the “house” were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.

Hollowpoints are specifically meant to transfer all their energy immediately into whatever they hit. They are not popular ammo for .223s because they tend to cause jams and they are illegal for the military.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17678
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Sweet! Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:59 pm

stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I wonder what his motivation was...
Image


You might mention - that was the gunman's own photo, created for and posted on his Facebook page.

There is a direct line between these xenophobia-motivated shootings and Trump's over-the-top racist and anti-immigrant rhetoric.

Your Liberal MSM has been lying to you. Like most conservatives, our President is not Racist and does not support hate groups

Sure if you ignore everything he's said/done in the last 50 years he might not be racist. Actually Trump cares about two things: attention and greed, and he's terrible at satisfying the latter because he's so incompetent. The guy has the brain power and self awareness of an amoeba, so in a sense, I don't necessarily think he's racist deep down, but merely reflecting the racism from his adoring fans--ie republicans. If Hitler said nice things about Trump I *guarantee* Trump would be be singing his praises, completely unaware of his Jewish daughter and son in law. On the contrary if Ilhan Omar started complimenting Trump and he felt it was getting him the right attention, he'd return the favor. The guy is about as simple minded and basic as a light switch.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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seb146
Posts: 20963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Sweet! Another mass shooting in El Paso

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:30 pm

stratclub wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I wonder what his motivation was...
Image


You might mention - that was the gunman's own photo, created for and posted on his Facebook page.

There is a direct line between these xenophobia-motivated shootings and Trump's over-the-top racist and anti-immigrant rhetoric.

Your Liberal MSM has been lying to you. Like most conservatives, our President is not Racist and does not support hate groups. He has stated REPEATEDLY that in no way shape or form he is a racist, condemns hate groups and has proven he is not racist many times over the years by his actions. Of course these real facts about our President do not support Liberal MSM's false narrative so are not considered news worthy and don't get reported. So really, if he were a racist, he must be one of the worst racist in history.

The mental state of the shooter was why he did what he did and has nothing to do with his political affiliations. Same thing for the Dayton shooter. Both of those people were sociopaths and complete nut jobs. They both could have just as easily blamed their actions on the hypocrisy of Santa Clause or the Easter bunny.


Well, if he said it, it must be true. Let's just forget all the anti Semitic statements he has made. The latest being Jews voting for Democrats.

Let's also not forget he defended a right wing murderer and his buddies with "very fine people on both sides". Or, if you want to say it from your side, he defended one guy who threw one milkshake one time.

As far as the right wing terrorist shooting people in El Paso because he hates Mexicans, please, do go on and tell us how this is "liberal MSM" fault and fake reporting when the actual facts are this gunman is racist inspired by what the occupant of the White House says.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:37 am

Spar wrote:
US Army issue M-4s use a selector lever which doesn't have a full auto position, it has semi auto and three-round burst.


M4A1 is select fire single shot and full auto.

Spar wrote:
I hate to be pedantic but your "authoritative presentation" begs for rebuttal.


No you don't. There are a whole big list of cartridges that have more power than the 5.56. The 7.62X51 has a lot more power, and the 7.62X63 can be loaded hotter.

So you start with the 5.56. Where do you stop? Nowhere, that is the problem, and the opposition.

Spar wrote:
The idea that a .223 round will putter out after passing through a piece of sheetrock is ludicrous.


How many 5.56 have you fired in combat?
 
Spar
Posts: 486
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:19 pm

extender wrote:
How many 5.56 have you fired in combat?

Do you ask this inappropriate question in other places?
Like, do you raise this issue when you think your order is late at Mc Donald's?
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:29 pm

Spar wrote:
extender wrote:
How many 5.56 have you fired in combat?

Do you ask this inappropriate question in other places?
Like, do you raise this issue when you think your order is late at Mc Donald's?


Not at all, a simple question. You are the one making these expert statements. How well does the 5.56 penetrate concealment? Valid questions for you since you brought it up.
 
Spar
Posts: 486
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:58 pm

extender wrote:
Spar wrote:
extender wrote:
How many 5.56 have you fired in combat?

Do you ask this inappropriate question in other places?
Like, do you raise this issue when you think your order is late at Mc Donald's?


Not at all, a simple question.

Whether it is a "simple question" or not isn't the issue. The issue is that the question is inappropriate and has no bearing on the above discussion.
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:01 pm

It sure sounds a whole better that something else. Book smarts and real smarts are two different things.
 
Spar
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:05 pm

extender wrote:
Book smarts and real smarts are two different things.

I take it that you don't have much of an education?
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:43 pm

Spar wrote:
extender wrote:
Book smarts and real smarts are two different things.

I take it that you don't have much of an education?


You're the one that posted all that sprinkle covered bupkis like some expert, yet you have no clue of how projectiles behave after hitting certain types of concealment, Keep trying to deflect the point, I will keep re-stating the obvious.
 
Spar
Posts: 486
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:49 pm

extender wrote:
Spar wrote:
extender wrote:
Book smarts and real smarts are two different things.

I take it that you don't have much of an education?


You're the one that posted all that sprinkle covered bupkis like some expert, yet you have no clue of how projectiles behave after hitting certain types of concealment, Keep trying to deflect the point, I will keep re-stating the obvious.
The last couple of posts I have been responding to your somewhat wandering conversation. Earlier, I was responding to N1611B. when I pointed out that Army M4s don't go full auto and that a .223 bullet will penetrate sheetrock just fine. He was trying to sell the idea that a .223 rifle is an ideal home defense weapon and I disagree with that. Everybody was on topic until you arrived. You're the one who has been introducing new topics to the conversation, (M16A1, 7.62 loads and ballistics, concealment issues, "book smarts", whether I've been in combat); all that and and you've only made four posts.
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:30 pm

In other words, sprinkle covered bupkis. I think the AR platform is good for home defense, but feel free to provide your intellect why you are the pinnacle of firearms knowledge.
 
extender
Posts: 386
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:10 am

When I read the opinions and logic of many, I don't need a gun, I need another gun.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9852
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:26 am

extender wrote:
When I read the opinions and logic of many, I don't need a gun, I need another gun.


What a peach. This is precisely the reason some of the proposals to divide the nation into four parts are actually reasonable. Time for your lot to get along in the world without piggybacking off the professionals in the 12 metros actually pumping out impressive GDP. Those of us from civilized places don’t think about violence first when encountering disagreement or lowbrow values.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 386
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:29 am

A bit too elitist for me, take California and have a nice day. "My lot?" Be careful what you ask for.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:35 am

extender wrote:
A bit too elitist for me, take California and have a nice day. "My lot?" Be careful what you ask for.


Nah I was thinking the 12 largest spikes on this map.

Image

Nothing to be careful about - we’d be fine without the provincialist value wars.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:08 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Nothing to be careful about - we’d be fine without the provincialist value wars.


So you think just because those democrat run enclaves, you can all just drop out? Take your ball and go home? How will you get your food? Fuel? Who will defend you? Didn't think that far ahead, did ya? Funny how the coin has flipped, when there was talk of secession because Obama got elected, you all railed about racism. This is rich.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:54 am

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Nothing to be careful about - we’d be fine without the provincialist value wars.


So you think just because those democrat run enclaves, you can all just drop out? Take your ball and go home? How will you get your food? Fuel? Who will defend you? Didn't think that far ahead, did ya? Funny how the coin has flipped, when there was talk of secession because Obama got elected, you all railed about racism. This is rich.


I’m not talking about anything like that - a nativist recently interviewed said he wanted a ‘white only’ enclave to preserve ‘their’ culture, and he suggested evangelicals have same. Four groups of united states, in a sense. That would leave a northeastern, western and upper midwestern enclave, with the coastal southeast in league with the others due to economic links. Would be an interesting experiment, to see who prospers. CA, OR, WA, NE, KS and IA can provide for food needs if the bible belt didn’t want to trade. The folks who want everything to stay 1950 forever can try their way, and those of us trading with/traveling the world and used to living multiculturally can try ours. And it has nothing to do with party either - have been registered independent since 2002.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
JJJ
Posts: 3348
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:37 am

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Nothing to be careful about - we’d be fine without the provincialist value wars.


So you think just because those democrat run enclaves, you can all just drop out? Take your ball and go home? How will you get your food? Fuel? Who will defend you?


Money buys all that.

The counter-question is who would buy all the rural US food if they can take Mexican or Costa Rican anyway.
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 am

JJJ wrote:
Money buys all that.

The counter-question is who would buy all the rural US food if they can take Mexican or Costa Rican anyway.


Ah, an imperialist.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3348
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:33 am

extender wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Money buys all that.

The counter-question is who would buy all the rural US food if they can take Mexican or Costa Rican anyway.


Ah, an imperialist.


Buying Mexican tomatoes is imperialist?

Okay.
 
extender
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Another mass shooting in El Paso

Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:23 am

My apologies, I read that the wrong way, you implied Mexican or Costa Rican tomatoes. I read it as when the US can take Mexico or Costa Rica.

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