VSMUT
Posts: 2822
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A320neo vs B737max

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:20 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
keesje wrote:
Thanks Paco for the factual statistics.


Appreciate that.

I did find another exception besides Air Canada.

Qatar Airways has 40 current jets from the A320 family and 20 historical ones, and only a single B737-200 from a long time ago. But they put an order in for 5 MAXes.

I don't know if that is a technical decision or a political one. Qatar Airways has an office in Trump's building in NYC and the order was placed only 7 weeks after Trump was elected POTUS.

There are anecdotal stories that champagne was flowing in the Airbus executive offices in summer 2011 when Boeing abandoned the NSA program and announced the MAX program. Even without the MAX crashes it looks like Airbus is destined to be the market leader in single-aisle jets. If Boeing is mostly selling the smaller jet (MAX-8) to existing customers, and Airbus is developing a commanding lead in the longer length and longer range variants, by the year 2030 they should have the lion's share of the market.


AFAIK, the Qatar Airways 737MAX order was for Air Italy, not Qatar Airways itself. They significantly postponed deliveries too. They ordered 20 originally.
 
heavymetal
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:37 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

The 737-800 has consistently had sale and lease rates that are about 5% higher than the A320. 737MAX-8 pricing also has been a little higher than A320neo pricing, but data is limited.

If the 737-8 has a higher market value than the A320neo (before the crashes) it can be implied that if it is offered at the same price as the A320neo, Airlines will favor the 737-8.

A320neo - $42 - 50M, $310-370,000
B737MAX-8 - $52.0M, $310-380,000

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422705

The scenario is flipped for A321 vs 737-900ER.



Higher lease rates can indicate the lessors expect a quicker economical write-off and or a lower rest value. They have to secure ROI quicker. Availability plays a role too.


Nice try, but resale prices reflect the same trend as lease rates where 737-800 and 737-8 values have exceeded the A320 and A320neo rates by a few percent


That was true for the 737-800 vs. A320. Is not, and was not true for the 737-8 vs. A320neo. Far too many 737-8's in the hands of lessors, driving lease rates down. 737-8 rentals were trending closer to parity with 737-800's, less than $300K per month for a fresh aircraft off the line. Wasn't pretty.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:01 am

737-8 has more seats at maximum density and the OEW is really close as is the MTOW. Range is also close. Everything else being similar and if you are planning on a high density configuration the extra seats of the 737-8 should give it a notch, but in reality everything else is not similar. In a 2 class layout the number of seats is most often similar (with a little less leg room on the A320).

And if you want your cargo in containers, the A320 wins. In addition, if you are thinking about a family of aircraft, the A321 gives the edge to the A320 series.
 
gloom
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A320neo vs B737max

Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:56 am

WIederling wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It is clear that the 737MAX has suboptimal engines. It was a compromise from day 1.


That started with the NG already. Only not as pronounced as with the MAX.


Even earlier. See inlet of Classics, famous "circle-like" shape of nacelle.

Cheers,
Adam
 
VSMUT
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:52 am

gloom wrote:
WIederling wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
It is clear that the 737MAX has suboptimal engines. It was a compromise from day 1.


That started with the NG already. Only not as pronounced as with the MAX.


Even earlier. See inlet of Classics, famous "circle-like" shape of nacelle.

Cheers,
Adam


Indeed, the 737 Classics and Next Generations all featured 152-155 cm fans, while the original CFM-56-2 and all versions fitted to A320s featured 173 cm fans.
 
gloom
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Indeed, the 737 Classics and Next Generations all featured 152-155 cm fans, while the original CFM-56-2 and all versions fitted to A320s featured 173 cm fans.


It's not only the size, but also the shape.
Image

Cheers,
Adam
 
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NeBaNi
Posts: 446
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:27 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
In comparison to the single-aisle Airbus orders listed in the previous post, the B737 orders:

B737 orders from USA airlines
1068 Southwest Airlines
759 UNITED AIRLINES
541 AMERICAN AIRLINES+ US AIRWAYS+ AMERICA WEST AIRLINES
316 DELTA AIR LINES + NORTHWEST AIRLINES
217 Alaska Airlines
35 Frontier Airlines
15 Aloha Airlines

Nice list. I'd add Sun Country to the list with 30 Boeing 737s.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:29 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
Sun Country to the list with 30 Boeing 737s.


The list was for airlines that purchased the B737s new. It doesn't include second-hand purchases or leases.
Southwest has ordered 1068 new B737s(including undelivered MAXs) but they have purchased more than 200 B737s used. Sun Country leases all their jets. I was trying to compare with the list from the Airbus database which includes only "new" orders, including undelivered ones.

I think that maybe some people think that USA airlines favor Boeing purchases. They certainly do for dual-aisle jets, but then Boeing dominates this category around the world. In fact, the USA airlines have ordered a sizeable number of Airbus single-aisle jets over the years.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:39 pm

Airbus is adding a 9th Final Assembly Line just to handle the massive number of A321 orders. As that model becomes more and more dominant, airlines will choose the A320neo for commonality with its bigger brother.

Unfilled orders (end of July 2019)
A320neo 3193
A321neo 2495

With each passing year (even before the MAX crashes), it seems more and more unlikely that Boeing will regain its dominant position in narrowbody
aircraft.
 
tommy1808
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:06 am

PacoMartin wrote:
With each passing year (even before the MAX crashes), it seems more and more unlikely that Boeing will regain its dominant position in narrowbody
aircraft.


I would think the Max 10 is pretty competitive and probably has better availability, once actually available, than the A321.

But when was the last time Boeing had a dominant position in Narrow bodies? A few years between McD ending as a separate entity and the A32x blooming was about the only couple of years "dominance" was real, right? Just from faulty memory, not having looked it up...

The 50:50 ish split is probably here to stay..

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
StTim
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:52 am

tommy1808 wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
With each passing year (even before the MAX crashes), it seems more and more unlikely that Boeing will regain its dominant position in narrowbody
aircraft.


I would think the Max 10 is pretty competitive and probably has better availability, once actually available, than the A321.

But when was the last time Boeing had a dominant position in Narrow bodies? A few years between McD ending as a separate entity and the A32x blooming was about the only couple of years "dominance" was real, right? Just from faulty memory, not having looked it up...

The 50:50 ish split is probably here to stay..

best regards
Thomas


I think it isn't a 50/50 split now if you look at orders. From a delivery perspective Airbus are continuing to ramp up against those orders and to higher levels than Boeing are currently planning. If the supply chain could handle it Airbus want to go to a rate of 70.

Ramping up efficiently is a long term process - as is ramping down. The earthquakes that will happen in the 737 supply chain should Boeing suspend production as the grounding drags on - will take a long long time to recover from. Suppliers may not survive...
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
But when was the last time Boeing had a dominant position in Narrow bodies? A few years between McD ending as a separate entity and the A32x blooming was about the only couple of years "dominance" was real, right? Just from faulty memory, not having looked it up...


Boeing outsold McDonnel Douglass in Narrow bodies shortly after airline deregulation in 1978. The 3-3 seating of the B737 became more popular in a deregulated environment than the 2-3 seating in the DC-9. The final DC-9 delivery was in October 1982.

Airbus started delivering narrow-bodies in 1988, but Airbus only started outselling Boeing in narrow-bodies fifteen years later in 2003 when the B757 was discontinued.

For one year in 2015 Boeing delivered 4 more narrow-bodies than Airbus (probably since Airbus was changing assembly lines for the neo).

Perhaps dominance is too strong of an adjective. But right now Boeing is not creating new B737 customers with the MAX, while Airbus is selling to nearly all the new airlines.
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 415
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Re: A320neo vs B737max

Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:25 pm

one more funny question.
"737-800 is a bigger plane"
yes, yes, i have go to wiki and watch: length 39.47m vs 37.57m, difference is 1.9m

but if we look at some drawing, we can find out 737 empennage is related further and actual FUSELAGE length is 38.02m
A320 empennage placed more forward, so real fuselage length is a max length of the plane and still 37.57m
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commer ... ps/737.pdf
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... C-A320.pdf

so actual difference in fuselage length is 45sm


cant find acap for MAX now, just wiki says total length of -8 the same.
(actually 39.52 +2inch )
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/
by visual silhouette MAX have longer tail after vertical stabiliser, more airbus-like.

cabin length by airbus 27.51m
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... 20neo.html

cant find boeing official, but google find some numbers for -800NG like 29,97 m, so difference is MORE than overall difference in length with rudders =2.46m
now its really about "2 or 3 more rows", but nothing come from fuselage length.

also boeing pdf still stated -800 pax number is 184

will be interesting to hear any clues about why airbus was concerned about total plane length
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2822
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A320neo vs B737max

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:05 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
will be interesting to hear any clues about why airbus was concerned about total plane length


It is old vs new design. As aircraft design became more efficient and focused on lower costs, manufacturers found ways to increase the initialization of as much of the plane as possible, decreasing the empty space. Empty space adds nothing of value, it is just additional weight that needs to be dragged around.

Look at the 747 vs 777-300ER. The 747 has its nose gear set really far aft, the wing box is massive, and the fuselage narrows in quite far from the nose and tail. This all infringes on available space for seats and cargo. The same goes for narrowbodies. It is yet another compromise Boeing has to live with because they keep reusing an antiquated design.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8500
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: A320neo vs B737max

Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:28 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
will be interesting to hear any clues about why airbus was concerned about total plane length


A320 length was probably set in ~1984..85 ( EIS 1988 )
The contemporary 737 was the Classic (enlarged, revamped with the CFM engine from the Jurassic )
737-300 EIS in 1984, 737-400 in 1988

distance between 1st and last door center, for 737 measured on the acaps drawing.
ordered for EIS:
737-300: 22.5m
A320: 24.5m
737-400: 25.8m
A321: 31.4m
737-800: 28.0m
737-900: 31.0m
Murphy is an optimist

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