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canyonblue17
Topic Author
Posts: 737
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:26 pm

Was watching the delivery route of Silver Airways first ATR-72-600. Along the way it made a 5+ hour flight from Santiago, Cape Verde to Natal, Brazil. How does an aircraft stretch its range that far? I’m sure it’s commom for deliveries - just wondering how it’s done? Also, how does it get approved for 5-hours over water - as the entire trip is over the Atlantic? I’m assuming it gets some sort of special ferry permit? Got some photos of it making its first arrival to Ft Lauderdale, US - will post soon.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:31 pm

Quick answer: strip out all the unnecessary accoutrements for a ferry flight from within the cabin, possibly install a reserve fuel tank within the stripped cabin, develop and file a beautiful and hella efficient flight plan, hope that conditions aloft don't vary too much, and monitor the heck out of those fuel gauges. :)
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:42 pm

RAI-NAT is 1,425 NM per GCMAP.
ATR2-600 is advertised for 825 NM with 70 pax; so, no pax, maybe reduced cruise speed (economical) and ferry tank will do.

The advertised max cruise speed is 275 KTAS at 95% power; that's already over 5 hours to go RAI-NAT; if they used an economical cruise speed, that'll push easily to 6 hours.
 
zakuivcustom
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Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:44 pm

Not the first time this happen anyway - they use a very similar routing to deliver those ATR72 to Azul way back in 2013 or so.

They do have a documentary about that delivery, but I don't have the full version.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8082
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:52 pm

I’m sure they have a ferry tank supplement to the AFM, virtually
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8082
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:53 pm

I’m sure they have a ferry tank supplement to the AFM, standard stuff
 
dcajet
Posts: 5036
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:08 pm

Is this any different to the way similar aircraft and general aviation planes have been ferried for decades from California to Hawaii and points beyond, like NZ, Tahiti and Australia?
 
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SierraPacific
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:14 pm

If anybody is interested in this topic, I find the article about how Hawaiian got their 717's to the islands fascinating. It shows the ferry tanks that are installed.

https://www.avgeekery.com/boeing-717-fly-way-mainland/
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 1029
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:34 am

There is no supplemental fuel tank available for the ATR 72. It has a fuel capacity of 11,000lbs (5000kg) which for a turboprop is quite remarkable. With full tanks, the ATR 72 can actually be aloft for 7-8 hrs depending on winds. When LI took delivery of one of its 72's, it flew from FOR Fortaleza Brazil direct to ANU Antigua, a journey over 1800nm's.
 
canyonblue17
Topic Author
Posts: 737
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:22 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:54 am

Dumb question but, how is what would normally be considered an ETOPS flight, be allowed without a qualified aircraft? Do ferries or delivery flights get an exemption?
 
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SXI899
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:08 am

canyonblue17 wrote:
Dumb question but, how is what would normally be considered an ETOPS flight, be allowed without a qualified aircraft? Do ferries or delivery flights get an exemption?

These flights fall under Part 91 (or the equivalent for the state of registry). As it isn’t considered a commercial flight, ETOPS/EDTO rules do not apply.
LimaFoxTango wrote:
There is no supplemental fuel tank available for the ATR 72. It has a fuel capacity of 11,000lbs (5000kg) which for a turboprop is quite remarkable. With full tanks, the ATR 72 can actually be aloft for 7-8 hrs depending on winds. When LI took delivery of one of its 72's, it flew from FOR Fortaleza Brazil direct to ANU Antigua, a journey over 1800nm's.

Exactly. Longest sector I’ve personally done in an ATR72 is just over 2000nm which was about 8hrs block time. Still had alternate fuel and 30min reserve intact.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5131
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:14 am

canyonblue17 wrote:
Dumb question but, how is what would normally be considered an ETOPS flight, be allowed without a qualified aircraft? Do ferries or delivery flights get an exemption?

AFAIK all jurstrictions can/will issue a "ferry permit" for flights that will NOT comply with all the normal regulations such as ETOPS. Such flights are carried out under conditions set by the regulator of the country in which the aircraft is registered. It may/or may require agreement from the countries under the flight path depending on the circumstances.

Gemuser
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:17 am

SXI899 wrote:
canyonblue17 wrote:
Dumb question but, how is what would normally be considered an ETOPS flight, be allowed without a qualified aircraft? Do ferries or delivery flights get an exemption?

These flights fall under Part 91 (or the equivalent for the state of registry). As it isn’t considered a commercial flight, ETOPS/EDTO rules do not apply.
LimaFoxTango wrote:
There is no supplemental fuel tank available for the ATR 72. It has a fuel capacity of 11,000lbs (5000kg) which for a turboprop is quite remarkable. With full tanks, the ATR 72 can actually be aloft for 7-8 hrs depending on winds. When LI took delivery of one of its 72's, it flew from FOR Fortaleza Brazil direct to ANU Antigua, a journey over 1800nm's.

Exactly. Longest sector I’ve personally done in an ATR72 is just over 2000nm which was about 8hrs block time. Still had alternate fuel and 30min reserve intact.

OK [I find this suprising, but OK]. What is to stop a company with the required design/installations approvals from their regulator from desigining and installing a third party ferry fuel system? It has most certainly been done on other aircraft.

Gemuser
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 1029
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:30 am

Gemuser wrote:

OK [I find this suprising, but OK]. What is to stop a company with the required design/installations approvals from their regulator from desigining and installing a third party ferry fuel system? It has most certainly been done on other aircraft.

Gemuser


I guess nothing if someone wants to spend money on it. But as I said above, with the ATR fuel capacity, it really doesn't need it.
 
tcfc424
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:01 am

Interesting information here, for sure! If the winds were too strong across the Atlantic, I presume the alternatives would have been to 1) wait for more favorable winds, or 2) fly north near Ireland/Iceland/Greenland, then down along the US coast before traversing the Caribbean? Any ideas (scientific wild guesses welcomed) what the cost difference would be?
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:20 am

tcfc424 wrote:
Interesting information here, for sure! If the winds were too strong across the Atlantic, I presume the alternatives would have been to 1) wait for more favorable winds, or 2) fly north near Ireland/Iceland/Greenland, then down along the US coast before traversing the Caribbean? Any ideas (scientific wild guesses welcomed) what the cost difference would be?


Yeah they will wait a lot of the time. I knew the pilots at Mesa Airlines that flew the CRJs from the US to Hawaii for their GO operation and I think he said they waited a week in Oakland for one flight for the winds to die down. And they had a cabin full of fuel to make the trip.

I am guessing that is why they headed south to cross, the winds are at lot more favorable for an eastern crossing down south, think about how hurricanes travel from east to west in the mid-Atlantic ocean. I heard another interesting fact about the winds between Africa and South America, there is something like a foot or an inch of sand that gets blown from the Sahara to the amazon each year.
 
agentskelly
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:19 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 am

I’ve been told that CRJs have been shipped by boat a few times across oceans....
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:12 am

canyonblue17 wrote:
Dumb question but, how is what would normally be considered an ETOPS flight, be allowed without a qualified aircraft? Do ferries or delivery flights get an exemption?


From what I remember, the ATR 600 are ETOPS120 certified.

http://www.atraircraft.com/newsroom/pre ... 15-en.html


It's not enough for RAI-NAT, but as others have mentioned before, the rules are different for a ferry flight.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=RAI-NAT&E=12 ... 275&EU=kts
 
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OA940
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:02 am

IIRC the Azul deliveries make a transatlantic hop from the Canaries to Brazil, another flight which lasts 5+ hours. I think JustPlanes made a film about it, though not sure. On the topic, I wonder how Ohana got their ATRs, because that's an even longer flight and they'd have to deal with more winds compared to either of those.
 
AirbusOnly
Posts: 435
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:06 am

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:05 am

SierraPacific wrote:
If anybody is interested in this topic, I find the article about how Hawaiian got their 717's to the islands fascinating. It shows the ferry tanks that are installed.

https://www.avgeekery.com/boeing-717-fly-way-mainland/


Awesome!! A bit OT: but how do they get these big tanks into the cabin???
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:12 am

AirbusOnly wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
If anybody is interested in this topic, I find the article about how Hawaiian got their 717's to the islands fascinating. It shows the ferry tanks that are installed.

https://www.avgeekery.com/boeing-717-fly-way-mainland/


Awesome!! A bit OT: but how do they get these big tanks into the cabin???

Most likely through one of the doors... Like the seats and most everything else in the cabin.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26797
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: ATR72 5+ Hour Flight

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:26 pm

The ATR has plenty of range. It just wouldn't be comfortable to utilize that range in passenger operations, and cabin weight would also be an issue.

agentskelly wrote:
I’ve been told that CRJs have been shipped by boat a few times across oceans....


I doubt that.

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