QR1350
Topic Author
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:11 am

Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 am

Hi all,

Long time reader, but first time poster!

As I was casually browsing the net looking at where people fly etc, I noticed on Wiki that neither JAL or ANA fly to AMS. Wiki is not always reliable as we know, so I checked on Skyscanner and it does indeed look like neither of them fly to AMS. I’m quite surprised by this as it’s a fairly big destination. KLM fly to more destinations than just TYO in Japan, so there’s clearly demand to the country as a whole. I was a bit more surprised as AMS is not a Star Alliance or oneworld hub and therefore neither airline could be code sharing.

Now from reading plenty of threads here, I know the answer to why a route isn’t flown is generally financial and there just isn’t the demand to warrant the money to operate it. Is that the case here? I understand the both JAL and ANA operate premium heavy wide bodies and I would have thought AMS would be that kind of market. I know both have nearby alliance hubs with LHR and FRA/MUC, is that enough to just funnel through alliance connections?

I guess it probably is just financial but I’m relatively new to the aviation scene and didn’t know if there was a historical reason behind it.

Thanks for any insight!
 
lhrsfosyd91
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:11 pm

Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.
 
Skyguy
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:55 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:47 pm

GRU was discontinued in 2009, and GIG before that. During the bankruptcy process ten years ago many routes were curtailed or mothballed and instead flown in cooperation with codeshares with OneWorld alliance partners or others.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
LJ
Posts: 4842
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:52 pm

QR1350 wrote:
Now from reading plenty of threads here, I know the answer to why a route isn’t flown is generally financial and there just isn’t the demand to warrant the money to operate it. Is that the case here? I understand the both JAL and ANA operate premium heavy wide bodies and I would have thought AMS would be that kind of market. I know both have nearby alliance hubs with LHR and FRA/MUC, is that enough to just funnel through alliance connections?


ANA flies to Dusseldorf and Brussels as well thus covers BeNeLux fairly good. There is no point for ANA to fly to both AMS, DUS and BRU as the market isn't big enough. AFAIK JAL reduced their long haul capacity a few years ago, thus may not have the aircraft. If take ANA's presence into consideration and KLM's 10x weekly to NRT, it already covers a very big -part of the O&D market in the BeNeLux. NO reason for JAL to join soon. In addition, cargo is covered by Nippon Cargo.
 
thuvah
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:56 pm

Connections are always better for me :)
 
QR1350
Topic Author
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:11 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:58 pm

Thank you very much for you replies. I guess that explains it, particularly the lack of feed, ANA serving DUS/BRU and JAL cutting back the long haul. Just seemed surprising from an casual armchair perspective that DUS was served by ANA over AMS. But hey, they know their routes and markets better than me!
 
c933103
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Well, as I have mentioned on the Haneda slot post, certain Japanese carrier could be getting a route authority to launch route from Haneda to Turkey. soon.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
lhrsfosyd91
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:37 pm

c933103 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Well, as I have mentioned on the Haneda slot post, certain Japanese carrier could be getting a route authority to launch route from Haneda to Turkey. soon.


A route authority doesn't equal opening up a service. Carriers around the world hold various traffic rights without exercising them.
 
lhrsfosyd91
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:40 pm

QR1350 wrote:
Thank you very much for you replies. I guess that explains it, particularly the lack of feed, ANA serving DUS/BRU and JAL cutting back the long haul. Just seemed surprising from an casual armchair perspective that DUS was served by ANA over AMS. But hey, they know their routes and markets better than me!


Dusseldorf has the 3rd largest Japanese population in Europe.
 
hooverman
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:48 pm

JAL dropped AMS a few years ago. They flew the 744 daily for years.
 
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FlyRow
Posts: 716
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:00 pm

Weren't they interested again a while back?

JAL also lost there grandfather rights I believe at Schiphol, so getting slots wont be easy.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
hooverman
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:29 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Weren't they interested again a while back?

JAL also lost there grandfather rights I believe at Schiphol, so getting slots wont be easy.


ANA requested slots for a couple of years but nothing happened. And that was before the slot constraint so if they really wanted they would have got them.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:38 pm

QR1350 wrote:
Thank you very much for you replies. I guess that explains it, particularly the lack of feed, ANA serving DUS/BRU and JAL cutting back the long haul. Just seemed surprising from an casual armchair perspective that DUS was served by ANA over AMS. But hey, they know their routes and markets better than me!


There's a sizeable Japanese presence in Dusseldorf, including a fair size business presence. IIRC the size of the Japanese community in Dusseldorf is only 2nd to London (albeit only ~1/3 the size) in Europe.

For BRU I believe it all comes down to *A connection via Brussels Airlines.

As of right now, though, I'm guessing neither JL (whose network were shrink quite a bit during the bankruptcy) nor NH (with presence in both DUS and BRU) want to compete with KL, especially with KL being able to capture transit traffic.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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Momo1435
Posts: 940
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:47 pm

JAL starting Helsinki and the code-share agreement with Finnair has become their main Europe strategy when it comes to the destinations they don't serve directly. Amsterdam was 1 one off the 1st destinations where they offered this route via Helsinki.
 
Jetty
Posts: 971
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:24 pm

Not just TYO but Asia to AMS in general is a Skyteam/KL monopoly. SQ and BR are the only airlines to AMS not part of Skyteam or codesharing with KL.
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 3912
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:38 pm

QR1350 wrote:
I was a bit more surprised as AMS is not a Star Alliance or oneworld hub and therefore neither airline could be code sharing.


Actually in a certain way it is as Vueling has a base at Amsterdam. Since Vueling is owned by IAG, it is basically in OneWorld.

However the main carrier at Amsterdam is KLM which is in SkyTeam. Amsterdam is therefor a true SkyTeam hub and served by many other SkyTeam airlines like Delta, Garuda and Korean Air.
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 3912
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:45 pm

Jetty wrote:
SQ and BR are the only airlines to AMS not part of Skyteam or codesharing with KL.


You forgot Cathay Pacific also serves Amsterdam, however they codeshare with Vueling which at least gives them some feed.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:07 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
SQ and BR are the only airlines to AMS not part of Skyteam or codesharing with KL.


You forgot Cathay Pacific also serves Amsterdam, however they codeshare with Vueling which at least gives them some feed.


You sure about this?
https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/ja_JP/ ... ships.html

Vueling is nowhere to be found.

CX does codeshare with flybe, though, on a few connections out of AMS.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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BasilFawlty
Posts: 907
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:35 pm

hooverman wrote:
JAL dropped AMS a few years ago. They flew the 744 daily for years.

And after that with the 772 for many years, plus several cargo flights every week. They had a quite sizeable operation at AMS once.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
MareBorealis
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:13 am

Momo1435 wrote:
JAL starting Helsinki and the code-share agreement with Finnair has become their main Europe strategy when it comes to the destinations they don't serve directly. Amsterdam was 1 one off the 1st destinations where they offered this route via Helsinki.


Yes it looks OW's 'Siberian Joint Venture' (AY/BA/IB/JL) works well for the airlines, Finnair and JAL being the closest partners. Getting JAL's daily service in 2013 was a big thing for HEL, this summer NRT is served 3x daily by AY+JL. In the coming winter AY opens Sapporo, that will be AY's 5th route to Japan. Perhaps Haneda is the next good news?
 
Johnwilliams123
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:35 am

Re: Japan to Amsterdam

Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 am

c933103 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Japanese carriers are limited to fellow partner hubs and major financial centers. Their average fares are rather high therefore there aren't many places where they can make money.

As you mentioned, there is no feed in AMS. This is also the case in MXP, FCO or IST.

Well, as I have mentioned on the Haneda slot post, certain Japanese carrier could be getting a route authority to launch route from Haneda to Turkey. soon.

Also heard ANA was going to fly to Moscow https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compan ... -ties-warm
also NH confirmed that they will fly to Vladivostok this march although schedule is unclear right now https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... t-changes/. Istanbul sounds interesting although TK is adding extra frequencies in Tokyo-Istanbul and resuming Osaka

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