USAirKid
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Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:12 am

Reuters: Southwest pilots sue Boeing for misleading them on 737 MAX

The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) said on Monday it had filed a lawsuit against Boeing Co alleging that the planemaker “deliberately misled” the airline and pilots about its 737 MAX aircraft.

The grounding of the 737 MAX in March has wiped out more than 30,000 Southwest Airlines flights, causing over $100 million in lost wages for pilots, the union said.


NPR: Southwest Airlines Pilots Sue Boeing Over 737 Max Crashes And Grounding

The union represents nearly 10,000 pilots. In a statement, union president Captain Jonathan Weaks said, "We have to be able to trust Boeing to truthfully disclose the information we need to safely operate our aircraft. In the case of the 737 MAX, that absolutely did not happen."


The filing accuses Boeing of rushing the redesigned 737 to market, prioritizing the company's profits over safety and sound design and engineering practices. "Boeing ... withheld critical information from regulators and deliberately mislead its customers, pilots and the public and the true scope of the design changes to the 737 Max," the complaint stated.


I find it kinda interesting that the pilots are suing Boeing, even though there isn't a business relationship or contract between the two.

It is also fascinating and telling that the Boeing's biggest 737 customer's employees are questioning the changes in the design.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:26 am

I am not an attorney but I wonder how much of a chance this suit really has. Again, I have no experience with the law but I would think that the pilots would only have standing to sue WN and for WN to sue Boeing. On the other hand, I'm sure the pilots would not have gone ahead with the suit unless they had some pretty good legal advice that it could succeed. It will be interesting to see what the attorneys on here have to say about this.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:43 am

They wouldn't do this if RTS was around the corner, at least imho!
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:58 am

SuperGee wrote:
I am not an attorney but I wonder how much of a chance this suit really has. Again, I have no experience with the law but I would think that the pilots would only have standing to sue WN and for WN to sue Boeing. On the other hand, I'm sure the pilots would not have gone ahead with the suit unless they had some pretty good legal advice that it could succeed. It will be interesting to see what the attorneys on here have to say about this.


I read much of the legal complaint. The general gist of the complaint is Boeing lied to SWAPA and the world, and additionally committed fraud in doing so. As a result of those actions SWAPA pilots have lost wages, SWAPA has lost dues due to the reduction in pilot wages, and SWAPA has incurred legal costs related to responding to government inquiries regarding the 737MAX.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:00 am

Oh also one fun tidbit, the address of SWAPA is: 1450 Empire Central Drive, Suite 737. I wonder if Suite 320 is available.... :duck:
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:09 am

If Boeing is found liable to airlines for lost revenue (or is effectively as guilty by voluntarily reimbursing the same), why would Boeing be not just as liable to crews for lost revenue ("wages")?

It wouldn't take a stretch to imagine a jury siding with the pilots. (If Boeing doesn't settle out of court.)
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:34 am

The part about training manuals etc. I get, basically Boeing put them in danger (along with passengers).

The part about lost wages etc., is another story.
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Scotron12
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:53 am

Aesma wrote:
The part about training manuals etc. I get, basically Boeing put them in danger (along with passengers).

The part about lost wages etc., is another story.


And the supposed reason MCAS was left out of the manual was requested by one Mark Forkner, at that time Chief Technical Pilot on the 737-MAX!

Now at SOUTHWEST! :lol:
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:55 am

Aesma wrote:
The part about training manuals etc. I get, basically Boeing put them in danger (along with passengers).

The part about lost wages etc., is another story.


Lost wages i can definitely see. For example, the grounding caused Icelandair to layoff 24 pilots. Because of the grounding Southwest had to operate give or take 170 less flights per day. Stretch that out of the almost 7 months in which the MAX has been grounded at that equals alot less productivity and money for the pilots. I believe they have standing on both grounds.
 
planecane
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:16 am

You have to read any of these lawsuits understanding the way that tort attorneys work. First of all, it is nearly certain that the attorneys are working on contingency fee. Therefore, the only way they get paid is to win and the only way to get paid a lot is to win a lot.

The way to accomplish this is to come up with the most scathing, outlandish claims that they possibly can and do it in a way that scares the defendant into settling because they are worried that a jury of "average Joes" will not be able to understand the technicalities.

If you want to see examples, just search any county in America that has free access to court filings and look at the lawsuits filed for simple fender benders.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:09 am

oschkosch wrote:
They wouldn't do this if RTS was around the corner, at least imho!

The lawyers see $100M up for grabs, that's the primary factor.

One would think that they'd be better off waiting for RTS to make the number as big as possible, and given that they filed now chances are high that we are close to RTS.

USAirKid wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
I am not an attorney but I wonder how much of a chance this suit really has. Again, I have no experience with the law but I would think that the pilots would only have standing to sue WN and for WN to sue Boeing. On the other hand, I'm sure the pilots would not have gone ahead with the suit unless they had some pretty good legal advice that it could succeed. It will be interesting to see what the attorneys on here have to say about this.


I read much of the legal complaint. The general gist of the complaint is Boeing lied to SWAPA and the world, and additionally committed fraud in doing so. As a result of those actions SWAPA pilots have lost wages, SWAPA has lost dues due to the reduction in pilot wages, and SWAPA has incurred legal costs related to responding to government inquiries regarding the 737MAX.

I've commented in our long running MAX grounding thread about the irony that the only thing that seems capable of reigning in runaway corporate capitalism is greedy lawyers.

Congressional elections are funded by corporations so there's no real chance that Congress is going to undo some of the changes in aviation law that favor Boeing.

Boeing will have to defend itself against charges of fraud, there's no way they can let that stand without a fight.

Thus the lawyers have a good chance at getting some if not all of that $100M back, almost certainly in an out of court settlement with no admission of guilt.

Boeing has already put aside $billions for cleaning up the MAX mess, the WN pilots may as well position themselves for a slice of the pie.

This case should be a walk in the park for the tort lawyers.
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:33 am

[
The filing accuses Boeing of rushing the redesigned 737 to market, prioritizing the company's profits over safety and sound design and engineering practices. "Boeing ... withheld critical information from regulators and deliberately mislead its customers, pilots and the public and the true scope of the design changes to the 737 Max," the complaint stated.


I find it kinda interesting that the pilots are suing Boeing, even though there isn't a business relationship or contract between the two.

It is also fascinating and telling that the Boeing's biggest 737 customer's employees are questioning the changes in the design.[/quote]


I find this the most ridiculous of suits. Absent gross negligence on the part of Boeing (i.e., the people at Boeing KNEW that there was a major design flaw that WOULD cause the 737-Max to crash) case won't make it to trial. I agree that perhaps Boeing should have been more proactive about letting their customers know about a problem, but I doubt this rises to the level of gross negligence. (and I'm no Boeing fanboy)
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:40 am

Well WN management has already said that they would share the compensation from Boeing with their employees, they did not say pilots only.
So, is this a tactic to ensure that the sharing is done?
I also posted this other thought in the grounding thread, why is WN management not added as a co-defendant, after all, they could have ordered Airbus but chose Boeing, so are they also partly responsible for lost wages?
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:43 am

superjeff wrote:
It is also fascinating and telling that the Boeing's biggest 737 customer's employees are questioning the changes in the design.

[/quote]
WN may be the largest single operator but in terms of a/c deployed they are dwarfed by the rest of the client base.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:47 am

Didn't Gary Kelly say that Southwest will be sharing compensation from Boeing with the employees? If it has got to this point of a lawsuit, does it mean that the SWAPA deems the compensation offered insufficient? Very unusual, regardless.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:58 am

Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:00 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The part about training manuals etc. I get, basically Boeing put them in danger (along with passengers).

The part about lost wages etc., is another story.


Lost wages i can definitely see. For example, the grounding caused Icelandair to layoff 24 pilots. Because of the grounding Southwest had to operate give or take 170 less flights per day. Stretch that out of the almost 7 months in which the MAX has been grounded at that equals alot less productivity and money for the pilots. I believe they have standing on both grounds.


So when an airline does badly and fires people, can they also sue the company ? Sue the public maybe, that took less flights ? Where does it end ?
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:11 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.

You can’t be current in more than two type ratings. You can fly the Max and NG currently, not a third.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:15 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Lost wages i can definitely see. For example, the grounding caused Icelandair to layoff 24 pilots. Because of the grounding Southwest had to operate give or take 170 less flights per day. Stretch that out of the almost 7 months in which the MAX has been grounded at that equals alot less productivity and money for the pilots. I believe they have standing on both grounds.


I think a lot of people will be watching this, I hear Ryanair is going to terminate 600 pilots due to the MAX, Norwegian also had significant disruption.

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.


Anyone can come across as the smartest person in the room with the benefit of hindsight.
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:33 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.

I will have to review, but I was under the impression that the NTSB / FAA would not give a waiver to allow pilots to fly all 3 types. WN would have had to create a separate pilots group or retire frames, they chose the latter.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:36 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The part about training manuals etc. I get, basically Boeing put them in danger (along with passengers).

The part about lost wages etc., is another story.


And the supposed reason MCAS was left out of the manual was requested by one Mark Forkner, at that time Chief Technical Pilot on the 737-MAX!

Now at SOUTHWEST! :lol:



Interesting. Source?
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:38 pm

It’s a Force Majuere issue which is perfectly legal. I doubt the pilots win
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:46 pm

par13del wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.

I will have to review, but I was under the impression that the NTSB / FAA would not give a waiver to allow pilots to fly all 3 types. WN would have had to create a separate pilots group or retire frames, they chose the latter.


I wasn't talking about the pilot's flying all three types. The pilots' association did not want there to be two pilot pools. As a result Southwest decided to retire all their 737classics en mass. Had they taken a more incremental approach, the pilots would not have forced Southwest to give up classic flying. When the MAX's got grounded, classics that were stored in the desert could have been returned to service.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:51 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
par13del wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.

I will have to review, but I was under the impression that the NTSB / FAA would not give a waiver to allow pilots to fly all 3 types. WN would have had to create a separate pilots group or retire frames, they chose the latter.


I wasn't talking about the pilot's flying all three types. The pilots' association did not want there to be two pilot pools. As a result Southwest decided to retire all their 737classics en mass. Had they taken a more incremental approach, the pilots would not have forced Southwest to give up classic flying. When the MAX's got grounded, classics that were stored in the desert could have been returned to service.

You just don’t bring a plane out of the desert to fly, lots of work and money involved.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:52 pm

superjeff wrote:
I find this the most ridiculous of suits. Absent gross negligence on the part of Boeing (i.e., the people at Boeing KNEW that there was a major design flaw that WOULD cause the 737-Max to crash) case won't make it to trial. I agree that perhaps Boeing should have been more proactive about letting their customers know about a problem, but I doubt this rises to the level of gross negligence. (and I'm no Boeing fanboy)

Is gross negligence the standard to be applied to a civil lawsuit?

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... bility.htm says:

A plaintiff in a civil case need only prove her case by a “preponderance of the evidence,” sometimes described as enough evidence to just tip the balance in favor of the plaintiff. Compare this to the burden in a criminal case: beyond a reasonable doubt, which is short of absolute certainty but certain enough that there is no real reason to believe otherwise. So, in a civil action, if the plaintiff proves that it is more likely than not that the defendant was responsible for her injuries or loss, she wins.

I'm accused of being a Boeing fan boy, and will say the preponderance of the evidence could show Boeing didn't take the necessary care to produce an error free design.

For instance we recently read that they did no testing starting from takeoff with a faulty AoA sensor and MCAS present, they just tested the activation of MCAS from cruise altitude and no bad AoA sensor, which can easily be portrayed as inadequate testing.

By the time of trial discovery could force release of some of the fault tree analysis (or lack thereof) that could show Boeing never correctly considered the impact of MCAS 1.0 especially in the "as shipped" configuration.

If you are Boeing wouldn't you pay $100M to make this go away, especially since you are already $billions in the hole due to MCAS already?
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FluidFlow
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
superjeff wrote:
I find this the most ridiculous of suits. Absent gross negligence on the part of Boeing (i.e., the people at Boeing KNEW that there was a major design flaw that WOULD cause the 737-Max to crash) case won't make it to trial. I agree that perhaps Boeing should have been more proactive about letting their customers know about a problem, but I doubt this rises to the level of gross negligence. (and I'm no Boeing fanboy)

Is gross negligence the standard to be applied to a civil lawsuit?

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... bility.htm says:

A plaintiff in a civil case need only prove her case by a “preponderance of the evidence,” sometimes described as enough evidence to just tip the balance in favor of the plaintiff. Compare this to the burden in a criminal case: beyond a reasonable doubt, which is short of absolute certainty but certain enough that there is no real reason to believe otherwise. So, in a civil action, if the plaintiff proves that it is more likely than not that the defendant was responsible for her injuries or loss, she wins.

I'm accused of being a Boeing fan boy, and will say the preponderance of the evidence could show Boeing didn't take the necessary care to produce an error free design.

For instance we recently read that they did no testing starting from takeoff with a faulty AoA sensor and MCAS present, they just tested the activation of MCAS from cruise altitude and no bad AoA sensor, which can easily be portrayed as inadequate testing.

By the time of trial discovery could force release of some of the fault tree analysis (or lack thereof) that could show Boeing never correctly considered the impact of MCAS 1.0 especially in the "as shipped" configuration.

If you are Boeing wouldn't you pay $100M to make this go away, especially since you are already $billions in the hole due to MCAS already?


I agree with you, I also think Boeing will make this go way asap, especially to silence the plaintiffs. The reason is simple, if it comes to a court case, Boeing will have to prove that they took every possible action to make the aircraft as safe as possible (this includes all the testing and safety analysis) and also disclosed everything needed for a safe flight to the pilots. The plaintiffs can just bring in evidence a), the Lion Air crash, evidence b), the absence of MCAS and its function and a possible solution to shut if off from any manual and c) argue that if Boeing did not know of the MCAS risks that their due diligence was bad or if they did know about it, that they did not disclose it.

At the end this would be an easy win in court for the plaintiffs. So why is the Union doing this? It is easy money for the pilots, which will gain double here. 1). By not putting their employer up for compensation it will not hurt WN at all, as they can still get full compensation from Boeing (keep in mind if you halt salary payments because the pilots are not flying you cant claim them from Boeing, so the pilots claim it directly) and 2) by WN sharing their compensation money with the pilots as well.

Why will Boeing pay? If they do not settle and the judges rule Boeing guilty there is a precedence for every other group of people that are just remotely affected by the grounding/crashes and can also easily claim money.

So this story will therefore go away quick because NDAs will just prohibit any coverage.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:16 pm

zeke wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Lost wages i can definitely see. For example, the grounding caused Icelandair to layoff 24 pilots. Because of the grounding Southwest had to operate give or take 170 less flights per day. Stretch that out of the almost 7 months in which the MAX has been grounded at that equals alot less productivity and money for the pilots. I believe they have standing on both grounds.


I think a lot of people will be watching this, I hear Ryanair is going to terminate 600 pilots due to the MAX, Norwegian also had significant disruption.

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.


Anyone can come across as the smartest person in the room with the benefit of hindsight.


Every other airline that flew the MAX in the US has multiple pilot pools. It was Southwest and it's pilots that were the outlier with their insistence on flying just one type of aircraft and just one pilot pool. They have no widebodies that can be scheduled to replace 737's on high demand routes to free up 737's to fly other routes. The extreme one airplane and one crew pool model that worked when they started up with a handful of planes doesn't really make as much sense when there are over 700 planes in their fleet. Surely a subfleet of 50 or 100 is enough to get economies of scale. Southwest has used their one plane philosophy to avoid modernization of their operations especially their IT department. Their reservations system is rather dated. They don't sell any tickets on any of the third party online travel sites. Better scheduling software would allow them to be flexible with a more heterogeneous fleet.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:19 pm

par13del wrote:
Well WN management has already said that they would share the compensation from Boeing with their employees, they did not say pilots only.
So, is this a tactic to ensure that the sharing is done?
I also posted this other thought in the grounding thread, why is WN management not added as a co-defendant, after all, they could have ordered Airbus but chose Boeing, so are they also partly responsible for lost wages?


This may be the issue. Either the pilots don't trust Kelly's word to truly share or don't feel it is enough. It would not shock me if they want a bigger slice of the pie as pilot groups often feel like they are owed the most. Given that, this may be an end around tactic to reduce what Boeing pays Southwest and take it for themselves up front. And Boeing may like that in some way to say that well we paid the affected employees through another suit. Management is expected to prepare contingencies and in this case didn't do a sufficient job. Did they have airplanes in the desert they could have used? Consider leasing other aircraft? That could reduce the overall cost.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:29 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
If Boeing is found liable to airlines for lost revenue (or is effectively as guilty by voluntarily reimbursing the same), why would Boeing be not just as liable to crews for lost revenue ("wages")?


Boeing and airlines have a contract that says Boeing will deliver an airplane to the airline by X date, and penalties will apply if the plane is not delivered by then. There likely are also contractual penalties if a Boeing error causes airlines to no longer be able to use the plane for a period of time.

There is no contract between Boeing and the crews. Boeing never sold an airplane to a crew. Boeing never guaranteed crew wages. All of that is between the airline and their employees. If the airline decided to pay the employees anyway and then go after Boeing for those costs, if they are above and beyond the contractual penalties, that would be between the airline and Boeing.

I see too many cans of worms that could be opened by allowing pilots to sue Boeing directly for lost wages. What's next? Passengers suing Boeing because their flight was cancelled due to the MAX grounding, causing them to incur economic loss related to whatever reason they were traveling?
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:31 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
If Boeing is found liable to airlines for lost revenue (or is effectively as guilty by voluntarily reimbursing the same), why would Boeing be not just as liable to crews for lost revenue ("wages")?

It wouldn't take a stretch to imagine a jury siding with the pilots. (If Boeing doesn't settle out of court.)


Airlines had to cut capacity because of the MAX grounding. That led to more expensive tickets. As a consumer, I think Boeing is liable because I had to pay more for travel. I want my money back. My nanny is suing them too. Early June I wanted to take a trip and take my nanny but the airfares were too high. She gets paid a premium when we take her on a trip. I stayed home on vacation instead. She is going to get her lost wages from Boeing.

Just two imaginary tales to show how ridiculous this lawsuit is.
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:32 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
par13del wrote:
I will have to review, but I was under the impression that the NTSB / FAA would not give a waiver to allow pilots to fly all 3 types. WN would have had to create a separate pilots group or retire frames, they chose the latter.


I wasn't talking about the pilot's flying all three types. The pilots' association did not want there to be two pilot pools. As a result Southwest decided to retire all their 737classics en mass. Had they taken a more incremental approach, the pilots would not have forced Southwest to give up classic flying. When the MAX's got grounded, classics that were stored in the desert could have been returned to service.

You just don’t bring a plane out of the desert to fly, lots of work and money involved.


I understand that, but it's been 7 months since the groundings. There could have been quite a few returned to service. Also the extreme draw down in capacity in the 4th quarter of 2017 would not have happened had the 737-300's not been forcibly retired. Many planes would not have been sent to the desert in the first place.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:41 pm

The planes would require million of dollars of maintenance, pilots retrained, pilot bid accomplished, parts bought and recertification with the FAA to get the planes back on the AOC. If it was economically feasible, don’t you think they would have done this? And you don’t even know if the planes were owned, sold or leased.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:43 pm

This is certainly strange what with the former B737 MAX Chief Technical Pilot now a SWA 737 pilot who was until recently at least in charge of the MAX program at SWA. In addition SWA had staff on sight at Boeing during development and prior to delivery of the first aircraft.
 
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:02 pm

Nice that they aren't really suing Boeing because the aircraft put them in danger.... they are suing because it deprived them of opportunity to make money.

I suppose its the way the world works these days.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:10 pm

Flyin' 737 in the hot sun
I fought the law and the law won
I fought the law and the law won
I needed money 'cause I had none
I fought the law and the law won
I fought the law and the law won
 
737max8
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:20 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

I wasn't talking about the pilot's flying all three types. The pilots' association did not want there to be two pilot pools. As a result Southwest decided to retire all their 737classics en mass. Had they taken a more incremental approach, the pilots would not have forced Southwest to give up classic flying. When the MAX's got grounded, classics that were stored in the desert could have been returned to service.

You just don’t bring a plane out of the desert to fly, lots of work and money involved.


I understand that, but it's been 7 months since the groundings. There could have been quite a few returned to service. Also the extreme draw down in capacity in the 4th quarter of 2017 would not have happened had the 737-300's not been forcibly retired. Many planes would not have been sent to the desert in the first place.


How do you know SWA owns any 737-300 planes in the desert? Oh wait, you don't.

I wonder if the Flight Attendant's will follow suit.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
The planes would require million of dollars of maintenance, pilots retrained, pilot bid accomplished, parts bought and recertification with the FAA to get the planes back on the AOC. If it was economically feasible, don’t you think they would have done this? And you don’t even know if the planes were owned, sold or leased.


Exactly...
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Sooner787
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:28 pm

One of the trickiest parts of the RTS for Southwest and other MAX carriers will be the
social aspect of addressing customer concerns who are taking Max flights the first few weeks
after the jets return to the skies. .

This lawsuit will make that job a lot more interesting :)
 
Scotron12
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:32 pm

kiowa wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The part about training manuals etc. I get, basically Boeing put them in danger (along with passengers).

The part about lost wages etc., is another story.


And the supposed reason MCAS was left out of the manual was requested by one Mark Forkner, at that time Chief Technical Pilot on the 737-MAX!

Now at SOUTHWEST! :lol:



Interesting. Source?


Seattle Times on the same article. He's the same guy that has taken the 5th in refusing to hand over documentation on the Max to a Federal Grand Jury investigation.
 
LJ
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:44 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
It’s a Force Majuere issue which is perfectly legal. I doubt the pilots win


We've discussion before, this is not Force Majeure as Force Majeure relates to events beyond someones (in this case Boeings) control. Delivering an airplane which has serious technical issues after which a regulator decides to ban it from the sky, is something the manufacturer could prevent. The fact that regulator provided approval is not relevant in detemining "Force Majeure".

incitatus wrote:
Airlines had to cut capacity because of the MAX grounding. That led to more expensive tickets. As a consumer, I think Boeing is liable because I had to pay more for travel. I want my money back. My nanny is suing them too. Early June I wanted to take a trip and take my nanny but the airfares were too high. She gets paid a premium when we take her on a trip. I stayed home on vacation instead. She is going to get her lost wages from Boeing.

Just two imaginary tales to show how ridiculous this lawsuit is.


You just gave a few lawyers an idea. I wouldn't be surprised if such a law suit is coming (though it would be more difficult to prove causal effect and thus substatiate a claim. Note that there is a causal effect between the pilots earn much less and the MAX grounding. Moreover, unlike in your example, a pilot cannot just switch jobs asap to mitigate the loss.
 
incitatus
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:00 pm

LJ wrote:
You just gave a few lawyers an idea. I wouldn't be surprised if such a law suit is coming (though it would be more difficult to prove causal effect and thus substatiate a claim. Note that there is a causal effect between the pilots earn much less and the MAX grounding. Moreover, unlike in your example, a pilot cannot just switch jobs asap to mitigate the loss.


Is compensation warranted just because there is a causal effect? If you are a pilot who shows up late for a flight and myself as a passenger miss a meeting because of it, do I just sue you for compensation?
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
BravoOne
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:07 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:

And the supposed reason MCAS was left out of the manual was requested by one Mark Forkner, at that time Chief Technical Pilot on the 737-MAX!

Now at SOUTHWEST! :lol:



Interesting. Source?


Seattle Times on the same article. He's the same guy that has taken the 5th in refusing to hand over documentation on the Max to a Federal Grand Jury investigation.



I have to wonder why this guy would have any Boeing documentation in the first place since he is no longer a Boeing employee? It's not like Boeing lets you leave with all the proprietary stuff you can stuff in your bag.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:11 pm

incitatus wrote:
LJ wrote:
You just gave a few lawyers an idea. I wouldn't be surprised if such a law suit is coming (though it would be more difficult to prove causal effect and thus substatiate a claim. Note that there is a causal effect between the pilots earn much less and the MAX grounding. Moreover, unlike in your example, a pilot cannot just switch jobs asap to mitigate the loss.


Is compensation warranted just because there is a causal effect? If you are a pilot who shows up late for a flight and myself as a passenger miss a meeting because of it, do I just sue you for compensation?


in the EU you are entiteled to compensation if you are late and it was a fault of the airline (there is a minimim time), so yes but you dont need to sue.
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:14 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:

And the supposed reason MCAS was left out of the manual was requested by one Mark Forkner, at that time Chief Technical Pilot on the 737-MAX!

Now at SOUTHWEST! :lol:



Interesting. Source?


Seattle Times on the same article. He's the same guy that has taken the 5th in refusing to hand over documentation on the Max to a Federal Grand Jury investigation.


Found it.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... rotection/

It says he is a f/o for Southwest. I would be suprised if he is not also in some type of management role.
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
If you are Boeing wouldn't you pay $100M to make this go away, especially since you are already $billions in the hole due to MCAS already?

How do they ignore the pilots in the other parts of the world, on grounds of principle and or precedent, they would be eligible for compensation also. Now Boeing could say this is a US case and the penalty amount is what the US would pay, that is fine, then the suggestion would be review the laws of the other jurisdictions and pay their level of compensation.

In any event, do we know whether such compensation is already included in the billions that they have already set aside for the initial financial hit expected?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:21 pm

This is a fascinating turn of events.What an unbelievable statement of no confidence in Boeing. Sure to put a damper on Boeing's orchestrated campaign of "throw the dead pilots under the bus" that they have been publicly waging. Boeing needs massive change now.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:41 pm

LJ wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
It’s a Force Majuere issue which is perfectly legal. I doubt the pilots win


We've discussion before, this is not Force Majeure as Force Majeure relates to events beyond someones (in this case Boeings) control. Delivering an airplane which has serious technical issues after which a regulator decides to ban it from the sky, is something the manufacturer could prevent. The fact that regulator provided approval is not relevant in detemining "Force Majeure".



Ah yes lol. I agree :checkmark:

The old force majeure trick is back :rotfl: We discussed that in detail in the grounding thread. The grounding is not an "act of god".


Force majeure meaning "superior force", is a common clause in contracts that essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, or an event described by the legal term act of God (hurricane, flood, earthquake, volcanic eruption, etc.), prevents one or both parties from fulfilling their obligations under the contract. In practice, most force majeure clauses do not excuse a party's non-performance entirely, but only suspend it for the duration of the force majeure.

Force majeure is generally intended to include occurrences beyond the reasonable control of a party, and therefore would not cover:

Any result of the negligence or malfeasance of a party, which has a materially adverse effect on the ability of such party to perform its obligations.
Any result of the usual and natural consequences of external forces.

To illuminate this distinction, take the example of an outdoor public event abruptly called off.
If the cause for cancellation is ordinary predictable rain, this is most probably not force majeure.
If the cause is a flash flood that damages the venue or makes the event hazardous to attend, then this almost certainly is force majeure, other than where the venue was on a known flood plain or the area of the venue was known to be subject to torrential rain[.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
 
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scbriml
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:44 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
It’s a Force Majuere issue which is perfectly legal. I doubt the pilots win


Force Majeure? I'm going to guess you're not a lawyer.

https://marketbusinessnews.com/financia ... e-majeure/
The term is common in supply and construction contracts. It means that the party is exempt from fulfilling its obligation in the contract if something unforeseeable happens. Specifically, if it is something that is beyond their control.


SWAPA is suing Boeing as a consequence of the MAX grounding. The MAX is grounded because of Boeing's botched implementation of MCAS. That's something that was entirely within Boeing's control.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:46 pm

So what does SWAPA plan to do with the winnings from this suit if they actually win? Distribute it among the pilots? Fat chance...
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BravoOne
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:51 pm

kiowa wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
kiowa wrote:


Interesting. Source?


Seattle Times on the same article. He's the same guy that has taken the 5th in refusing to hand over documentation on the Max to a Federal Grand Jury investigation.


Found it.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... rotection/

It says he is a f/o for Southwest. I would be suprised if he is not also in some type of management role.


I'm pretty sure this guy is/was the SWA 737M Fleet Technical pilot when started at SWA, around the same time the first Max went down.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Southwest Pilots Association Sues Boeing Re: 737MAX

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:53 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Had the pilot's union not need so adamant that there only be one pool of pilots, the 737-300 fleet would not have been retired en mass at the end of September 2017. It would have been possible to bring back some 737 classics stored in the desert to fill in temporarily while the MAX was grounded.


The FAA decision essentially would have forced the splitting of the pilot group that was inevitable. They would only be allowed to fly 2/3 variants at one time. How you claim the union is responsible for classics retirements is baffling.

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