WA707atMSP
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NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:41 pm

The Minneapolis Star Tribune has an article about how NIMBYs in Eagan (which is southeast of MSP airport; it was the headquarters of Northwest Airlines for many years) are upset about jet noise. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.startribune.com/frustrated-e ... 562578102/

I'm not very sympathetic to the people in Eagan. Runway 17/35, the runway the NIMBYs are most vocal about, has been open for fourteen years, and it was in the airport master plan well before it was built. Almost everyone who bought a house in the path of 17/35 did so after the runway was proposed.

I live on the opposite (northwest) side of MSP, and I'm so used to jet noise that I rarely notice it; the yapping of my next door neighbor's dog is far more annoying.

Also, although people are commenting about how air traffic using 17/35 has increased in recent years, the tradeoff, which the article did not mention, is that the noise generated by each individual flight has decreased significantly due to airlines upgrading their fleets, for example as DC-9s have been replaced by CRJ-900s and Embraer 175s.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:03 pm

Residents of Eastie have been complaining about Logan forever too, it is what it is.
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BNAMealer
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:10 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
The Minneapolis Star Tribune has an article about how NIMBYs in Eagan (which is southeast of MSP airport; it was the headquarters of Northwest Airlines for many years) are upset about jet noise. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.startribune.com/frustrated-e ... 562578102/

I'm not very sympathetic to the people in Eagan. Runway 17/35, the runway the NIMBYs are most vocal about, has been open for fourteen years, and it was in the airport master plan well before it was built. Almost everyone who bought a house in the path of 17/35 did so after the runway was proposed.

I live on the opposite (northwest) side of MSP, and I'm so used to jet noise that I rarely notice it; the yapping of my next door neighbor's dog is far more annoying.

Also, although people are commenting about how air traffic using 17/35 has increased in recent years, the tradeoff, which the article did not mention, is that the noise generated by each individual flight has decreased significantly due to airlines upgrading their fleets, for example as DC-9s have been replaced by CRJ-900s and Embraer 175s.


I have no sympathy either. When the decision was made to keep MSP in its current location, they should’ve know this kind of stuff would continue to happen.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:27 pm

I was going to say, they don't have the DC-9s any more.
Don't departures on 17 tend to try to climb out following the Minnesota River to the southwest instead of overflying Eagan if possible?
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:48 pm

In most cases NIMBYs can and should be ignored, especially with airports that have largely been there for generations. I find it dumb that people move into a neighborhood near an airport or under an approach/departure path and whine about the noise. Speaks to their diligence in researching the most expensive thing most will purchase.

If the most vocal had their way, our airports would be as far away from city centers as say NRT, a near hour long journey by dedicated train.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:53 pm

My peeve is that they complain about the noise but then also talk about how convenient their home is to the airport, especially when selling. You can't have one without the other!
 
klakzky123
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:11 pm

This stuff has always been generally under wraps in Minnesota because cities don't own the airports. Airports are instead owned and managed by a state agency. The Twin Cities itself even has the unique quirk of having a regional government that oversees the entire Twin Cities metro and that entity works with the MAC to oversee aviation.

So as a result, cities have to go through the Metro Council and MAC to really change things. There are procedures to change flight paths and runway procedure but the chaos that cities can inflict in other regions doesn't exist in MSP.
 
FSDan
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:19 pm

I guess the residents of Eagan very quickly forgot what a DC-9 sounded like... Otherwise I imagine they'd realize things have improved over the years.
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:14 pm

Zero sympathy for NIMBY's unless a new airport sprung up in their neighborhood without a word. And the chances of that are virtually nil.

Friends of mine in the Twin Cities lived in the departure path of the 30's, and back in the days of the DC-9's, I remember vividly the almost constant roar. Even north of downtown, there was a roar. Do we want to go back to those days? Of course not! But the quieter jet engines are orders of magnitude more tolerable than 1960's technology. Unfortunately, people seem more sensitive to it today. Or at least that's what their ambulance-chasing attorneys lead them to believe. That, and the concept that they will ever find relief from the noise.

Denver, at least, was smart about this, as then they built DEN, all new houses within a certain radius had to have the homeowners acknowledge that (a) there is an airport nearby, (b) it was here before you, (c) it brings in FAR more money into the region than you ever will, (d) it is NOT going to change because you moved in nearby, so (e) shut the "heck" up and find somewhere else if you don't like it.

I actually don't mind the curfew at 11:30 here at SAN. I think it's a nice compromise for the residents and neighbors, as it only really precludes red-eyes to Central Time Zone cities (SAN-MSP, SAN-DFW, and SAN-IAH) from what would be a 1:00 AM departure (similar to LAX). East coast red-eyes leave well within the time frame, and UA & AA do SAN-ORD as a red-eye, arriving between 4 and 5 AM (usually the first arrival of the day!). Other than that, though, Point Loma residents understand that roar goes on all day, every day, but each one went into that deal knowingly.
 
SUNCTRY738
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:18 pm

MSP was there long before the City of Eagan. Wouldn't it be great if the airport could sue the cities for allowing residential building under and near their flight paths for any long pre-existing airports??? Lol
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:27 pm

I have a hard time believing they are woken-up all night long by aircraft using 17/35. The majority of the last big departure bank for DL leaves between 10-11pm, of which only a sub-set would even be using 17 for departures, based on winds.

Same for arrivals, which still come in up to around midnight, but again arrivals are generally much quieter, and only a sub-set would arrive on 35.

Very few aircraft depart MSP between 11pm-6am, and very few arrive between 12am-6am.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:51 pm

My grandma lives right below the departure path off 30L, the aircraft roll out of the left turn right over her house in Richfield. My whole life growing up, I never heard a single neighbor there complain about the noise BECAUSE THEY MOVED THERE KNOWING PLANES FLEW OVER SOMETIMES.

Honestly, since 17/35 has been built, sometimes I will spend a week out there and only a hand full of planes will depart 30L. Sure, sometimes it is in use for a few days straight, but the noise is much more spread out now. Not to mention that into the late 2000s, Northwest was still flying old and loud jets, American was flying in MD-80s, Delta MD-88s, Cargo 727s and DC-9s, planes are much quieter now to begin with..

And as others have touched on, MSP is a VERY sleeply airport late night being the mega hub that it is. There is a West Coast bank between 2130-2200 that I often take back home, and there is almost nothing left on the departure board as I get to the gate usually. Sure, RONs arrive, but the 2200-0500 window is very, very quiet at MSP compared to other busy hub airports with similar numbers of daily movements.

I just find it so funny that aircraft noise used to be an occasional story out there my whole child hood considering all of the above, but people are going to complain all the time because they've "had it".
Last edited by Chasensfo on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:55 pm

Don’t buy a house near an airport, idiots.
 
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stl07
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:59 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
Don’t buy a house near an airport, idiots.

Or buy a house and be entertained all day :D
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
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PITingres
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:00 am

I remember doing a training class in Bloomington MN about 18 years ago and staying in a hotel in the area; the procession of DC-9's and MD-80's overhead was constant and fairly noisy, but not to the point of disturbing sleep. I don't know what the Eagen people are listening to, but unless it's noisier than a DC-9 (hah!) I have no sympathy whatsoever.
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GSPSPOT
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:08 am

This reminds me of people who carp about increasing flights at Love Field in Dallas. I'd LOVE for those people to have lived in the same areas when the dominant a/c were 707s DC8s BAC-111s, DC9s 727s, etc. Their heads would have exploded.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:31 am

klakzky123 wrote:
This stuff has always been generally under wraps in Minnesota because cities don't own the airports. Airports are instead owned and managed by a state agency. The Twin Cities itself even has the unique quirk of having a regional government that oversees the entire Twin Cities metro and that entity works with the MAC to oversee aviation.

So as a result, cities have to go through the Metro Council and MAC to really change things. There are procedures to change flight paths and runway procedure but the chaos that cities can inflict in other regions doesn't exist in MSP.


That's not such a bad thing. Usually the city that gives the airport its name has all the political control over it, but a large chunk of the people who use the airport live in suburbs or even outside the metro area and have little say over policies and operations.
 
norjet
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:28 am

Also too, a lot of the Eagan and Burnsville population back in the 70s-90s worked at the airport. Heck, I had a class at Metcalf Jr High all about aviation because the demand was there. To my friends and neighbors south of the river, a noisy airport meant steady work at good wages! But with NW moving a lot of maintenance jobs away, and then with Delta closing the headquarters, many of the airline employees sold their houses & the new folks don't have that tie with MSP.

Zoning isn't the problem - the 17/35 flight path goes over Cedar Avenue / MN-77, which has been commercial-light industrial-retail since the 1950s. No new stock of housing near there either; most of it was built in the 60s-70s with the last developments going in around '88 by the Apple Valley border.
Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
 
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cosyr
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:50 am

"Shut down runway...twenty two" Couldn't resist.
 
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:59 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I have a hard time believing they are woken-up all night long by aircraft using 17/35. The majority of the last big departure bank for DL leaves between 10-11pm, of which only a sub-set would even be using 17 for departures, based on winds.

Same for arrivals, which still come in up to around midnight, but again arrivals are generally much quieter, and only a sub-set would arrive on 35.

Very few aircraft depart MSP between 11pm-6am, and very few arrive between 12am-6am.


MSP ATC generally quits using 17/35 long before the last bank of the night. Often times coming off of 17 around 8-9pm. They will often land the early morning arrivals on 35 but those are quiet and not over Eagan for the most part.
Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
 
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:18 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Zero sympathy for NIMBY's unless a new airport sprung up in their neighborhood without a word. And the chances of that are virtually nil.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

This. That airport's been there for 98years, and has been a hub for 93 of those years.... so whining by anyone less than a century old, should be heard as farting into the wind; they knew what they were getting when they CHOSE to move in next to a large airport,.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
bravotango75
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:54 am

NIMBY's have been a thorn in the side of Massport and Logan for decades. NIMBYs are NEVER satisfied and will find something new to bitch about, especially if they are victorious and win their battle (a bit like Kidnappers/Terrorists in that regard). Many move into an area where said airport has been in existence for decades for the convenience of having a nearby airport yet, they demand that the airport make concessions, namely introducing updated noise abatement laws that suit them. Yet they are often the first to bitch when their flight is canceled or delayed, hypocrites, all.
 
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illinoisman
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:29 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
The Minneapolis Star Tribune has an article about how NIMBYs in Eagan (which is southeast of MSP airport; it was the headquarters of Northwest Airlines for many years) are upset about jet noise. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.startribune.com/frustrated-e ... 562578102/

“We liken it to Pearl Harbor without the actual bombs dropping,” said one of the folks that was interviewed..Just let that sink in for you all...
 
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:30 am

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
MSP was there long before the City of Eagan. Wouldn't it be great if the airport could sue the cities for allowing residential building under and near their flight paths for any long pre-existing airports??? Lol


Why can't they! you can sue for anything. Maybe if they airports start sue the cities and residents for causing losses with their lawsuits they will quit.

I'll bet most every one could be tracked back to using the airport themselves. So if you have used the airport. Then sue to limit it's operations. Then you should be able to be sued them for illegal restraint of trade . And also sue them for damages as they have shown they are culpable themselves.
 
Adipocere
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:03 am

Couldn’t the local authorities invoke eminent domain over the homes of the complainers?
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:33 am

Stick a pacifier in their pie-hole to shut them up, pat them on their backside and send them to bed. :hissyfit:
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
crownvic
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:35 am

As a bleeding heart SJW, I chose living in Eagan, because I knew the airport was there before I was, but I don't care. In fact, I like driving in the left lane at the speed limit, knowing i hold everyone up behind me, but I don't care. I also enjoy going to the grocery store, wait for the cashier to bag my groceries, then I wait for the cashier to tell me how much my total charges are, then I go to my purse and get my cash out, but I don't care if you are waiting behind me. My favorite pass time though, is when i board my flight that departs over Eagan, I make sure i am talking on the speaker phone set on on the loudest volume, so you can all hear my conversation, but, I DON'T CARE....Got to love people :(
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:41 am

We have a problem with NIMBYs in my little town outside Metro Detroit.
There is a railroad line that gets maybe 15-20 freight trains a day that has been there for almost 150 years and they recently re-purposed some vacant light industrial properties next to the railroad and built some loft-style apartments on the property. New said residents in the building are, surprise, complaining about the noise of the trains and them blowing their horns the road crossing.

These points were all brought up during the planning sessions with the city council and now everyone is saying I told you so. I mean you residents that have been here less than a year knew you were moving next to an active railroad!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:53 am

Oh and the guy quoted in the article lives in a house built in 1992, that he bought in 1992 that is less than 5 miles from the threshold of 30L/12R.

Granted they may have a point about the use of departures of 17 that are headed east that maybe used to use 12R, but anything headed westbound of 17 doesn't overfly Eagan.

However he's not subject to the 72S, DC-9, and MD-80s of yesteryear.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:10 am

ZERO absolutely ZERO sympathy for NIMBYS, wherever they may be. It's invariably and always the same boring old story. They buy a house in the vicinity of an airport and then surprise surprise they get annoyed by the noise. [email protected] them I say.
We also have a very annoying and loud group of far-left-wing NIMBYS in my city and they themselves manage to create a whole whack of noise!
 
mchei
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:37 am

Isn’t it the same with people that buy houses in the vicinity of train tracks and then complain about trains being too loud? Those people are annoying. They know they get their houses cheaper but once they move in, they’ll happily sue the railway company.

The small Bremen airport in northern Germany is located close to the city. Bremen sees 738, 319, 320, 321 and E-Jets plus smaller aircrafts from the LH Flight School. But the noise they make is increasing more and more. There’s a website from the city where people can insert their complaint and they’ll get an answer:

https://www.bauumwelt.bremen.de/umwelt/ ... rden-48214

If you read German you’ll notice the style of the complaints...
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:13 am

Right after getting married we briefly lived in an apartment that was about 100 feet from a Union Pacific line. We had 6-10 freight trains per day, including 3 or 4 during the night. And the locomotives would blow their horns at several crossings in the neighborhood. Now that was LOUD. But we learned to sleep right through it within a week.
Now I live below the approach path for the 34s at SLC. There is a steady flow of jet traffic all day, but I barely notice it. Except the FedEx MD11--I notice that one.
 
blockski
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:02 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Couldn’t the local authorities invoke eminent domain over the homes of the complainers?


No. Silencing citizens with valid complaints about noise is not going to be a valid public purpose for the use of eminent domain.

Now, on the other hand, many airports (including MSP) have used eminent domain to purchase all houses in a certain area because of noise impacts. But MSP (and other airports) have been legally compelled to pay for all sorts of noise mitigation - installing air conditioning, insulation, new windows, etc for houses within the noise decibel contours.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:09 pm

The house I grew up in was a mile inside the outer marker for the long runway. There was also an Air National Guard wing that flew F84s, then F100s, F4s, F16s, and now A10s through the years. Only the A10s didn’t use full after-burner as they went overhead.
Fortunately traffic died down around ten pm. Then BAX moved in. Then it was a parade of 707s, 727s, DC8s, and the rare 747 inbound from 2200 to midnight and then outbound from 0430 to 0600 as the tower had them approach and depart away from the city. Not every plane had a hush-kit. So these spoiled brat NIMBYs have NO IDEA what airport noise is really like. Planes today are so much quieter.

One sad NIMBY story from Indiana. A lawyer built a house out in the country. A family owned farm was next door. They had recently switched over to growing hogs. Of course, the smarter than everyone in the room lawyer had built down-wind from the hogs. He sued over the odor and won, destroying a farm that had been in that family for nearly 100 years. I feel for the farmer, who had everything he worked for taken away by an idiot.

Bottom line, no sympathy for NIMBYs. They should receive the same treatment they force on others.
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MIflyer12
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Couldn’t the local authorities invoke eminent domain over the homes of the complainers?


For what reason? There was a Supreme Court case in 2005 (very unpopular with the Right) that confirmed the right of eminent domain for a redevelopment project, but taking homes just to stop people from complaining?
 
bkflyguy
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:00 pm

As someone who grew up very close to MSP, the DC-9s were not that bad after they installed the "hush kits" on them. If you want to talk noise, let's talk about 727s. That was one loud sucker. The level of noise around MSP dropped noticeably once those were swapped out for A320s.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:21 pm

The common opinion here seems to be that airports (and carriers) have a right to pollute - noise pollution in this case. Entities don't have a right to pollute as much (or a little less) as they used to in perpetuity. Ask any utility running a power plant how much they spent on flue gas desulfurization, NOx reduction, and particulate reduction. Ask paper mills, refineries (and city sanitary services) what they had to spend on wastewater treatment. Smart firms seek to mitigate impacts - to use less water in dry areas, to encourage employees to take public transit, to recycle paperboard and plastics.

klakzky123 wrote:
This stuff has always been generally under wraps in Minnesota because cities don't own the airports. Airports are instead owned and managed by a state agency. The Twin Cities itself even has the unique quirk of having a regional government that oversees the entire Twin Cities metro and that entity works with the MAC to oversee aviation.

So as a result, cities have to go through the Metro Council and MAC to really change things. There are procedures to change flight paths and runway procedure but the chaos that cities can inflict in other regions doesn't exist in MSP.


You're just bragging how undemocratic and unresponsive to citizen complaints is the process in Minnesota. Think on that for a bit.
 
tys777
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

You're just bragging how undemocratic and unresponsive to citizen complaints is the process in Minnesota. Think on that for a bit.


It's not a brag, as much as it is a statement of the facts. It does have it's benefits however. One of the biggest being the ability to manage a regional transportation system more efficiently than most big cities.


Now, the people of Eagan have a point, The airport should move just north of Lino so that my drive gets shaved off by about a hour.
 
blockski
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The common opinion here seems to be that airports (and carriers) have a right to pollute - noise pollution in this case. Entities don't have a right to pollute as much (or a little less) as they used to in perpetuity. Ask any utility running a power plant how much they spent on flue gas desulfurization, NOx reduction, and particulate reduction. Ask paper mills, refineries (and city sanitary services) what they had to spend on wastewater treatment. Smart firms seek to mitigate impacts - to use less water in dry areas, to encourage employees to take public transit, to recycle paperboard and plastics.

klakzky123 wrote:
This stuff has always been generally under wraps in Minnesota because cities don't own the airports. Airports are instead owned and managed by a state agency. The Twin Cities itself even has the unique quirk of having a regional government that oversees the entire Twin Cities metro and that entity works with the MAC to oversee aviation.

So as a result, cities have to go through the Metro Council and MAC to really change things. There are procedures to change flight paths and runway procedure but the chaos that cities can inflict in other regions doesn't exist in MSP.


You're just bragging how undemocratic and unresponsive to citizen complaints is the process in Minnesota. Think on that for a bit.


The actual history is a bit more complicated. The State of Minnesota had their 'dual track' planning process in the 1990s to plan both for expansion at MSP and for a new airport. When support for a new airport collapsed, one condition of the support tor keeping MSP was that the MAC do something to mitigate noise in adjacent communities, including Minneapolis, Richfield, and Eagan. State law was written to that effect.

The MAC developed a noise mitigation fund that paid for things like installing air conditioning, insulation, new windows, etc. Beginning in 2001, the MAC started to push back on the scope of the program, trying to shrink the area (and thus the number of homes to be renovated) to save money. In 2004, they officially scale back the program, and the City of Minneapolis sues. The lawsuit is settled in 2007 with a consent decree that stipulates what the MAC must do for noise mitigation today.

You can see the map of the properties impacted here: https://customers.macnoms.com/mitigation/
 
jsquared
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Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:51 pm

The issue with airport noise complaints is that it's a zero-sum game in an urban area like the Twin Cities - if you reroute aircraft to placate one group, it just exacerbates an existing problem or creates new problems for people living on another side of the airport. Since I live under the approach to MSP runway 12R in SW Minneapolis I don't really have any sympathy for NIMBYs in the suburbs, but I personally don't have a problem with the noise and enjoy talking to my kids about airplanes as they fly overhead. MSP isn't going anywhere, so I say embrace it and be thankful that we live so close to a great airport with over 150 nonstop destinations! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
klakzky123
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:24 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The common opinion here seems to be that airports (and carriers) have a right to pollute - noise pollution in this case. Entities don't have a right to pollute as much (or a little less) as they used to in perpetuity. Ask any utility running a power plant how much they spent on flue gas desulfurization, NOx reduction, and particulate reduction. Ask paper mills, refineries (and city sanitary services) what they had to spend on wastewater treatment. Smart firms seek to mitigate impacts - to use less water in dry areas, to encourage employees to take public transit, to recycle paperboard and plastics.

klakzky123 wrote:
This stuff has always been generally under wraps in Minnesota because cities don't own the airports. Airports are instead owned and managed by a state agency. The Twin Cities itself even has the unique quirk of having a regional government that oversees the entire Twin Cities metro and that entity works with the MAC to oversee aviation.

So as a result, cities have to go through the Metro Council and MAC to really change things. There are procedures to change flight paths and runway procedure but the chaos that cities can inflict in other regions doesn't exist in MSP.


You're just bragging how undemocratic and unresponsive to citizen complaints is the process in Minnesota. Think on that for a bit.


You're implying that cities have no recourse in changing how the airports operate. That simply isn't true. Cities have always had the ability to petition MAC to change runway operations. Mendota Heights successfully got the flight paths shifted away from it to less populated areas not that long ago.

The reason why the Metro Council and MAC exists is that the alternative is a if Eagan forces the airport to reduce operations from adjacent runways, that probably just results in a shift to the other runways which just ends up shifting noise to homes around the other runways.

Consequently, MSP has a multi-county regional government that is tasked with balancing transportation needs across the whole Twin Cities metro and is designed to prevent this exact scenario (where cities seek to shift the rules to benefit them at the expense of some other city). Portland has a similar concept as well.

I'm certainly not suggesting that the airport have an unlimited right to sound and air pollution. I'm suggesting that cities should have to work within a broader framework that accounts for the impacts of noise across the whole metro area.

As was pointed out, MAC continues to fund noise mitigation for affected houses and has been expanding the houses that qualify over time. And frankly, my personal opinion is that MAC should expand its noise mitigation radius as they haven't kept up with the increasing levels of noise. But again, that's a different discussion entirely.
 
WA707atMSP
Topic Author
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: NIMBYs in Eagan upset about MSP jet noise

Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:23 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
We have a problem with NIMBYs in my little town outside Metro Detroit.
There is a railroad line that gets maybe 15-20 freight trains a day that has been there for almost 150 years and they recently re-purposed some vacant light industrial properties next to the railroad and built some loft-style apartments on the property. New said residents in the building are, surprise, complaining about the noise of the trains and them blowing their horns the road crossing.

These points were all brought up during the planning sessions with the city council and now everyone is saying I told you so. I mean you residents that have been here less than a year knew you were moving next to an active railroad!


Which intersection is this?

Just as jet noise has decreased because 727s and DC-9s have been replaced by A319s and Embraer 170s, railroad noise in the Detroit area is a lot quieter, because thanks to the sharp reduction in the number of automobile factories, there's a lot fewer trains.

The Derby Road overpass over the Grand Trunk Railroad tracks through Birmingham was built extra - long, in case the Grand Trunk Railroad decided to quadruple track their line between Pontiac and Detroit. Now that most of the General Motors factories in Pontiac have closed, the trains that brought raw materials to them, and finished cars, trucks and busses out of them, have disappeared, too.

I shudder at how the NIMBYs you're alluding to would react if they lived next to tracks that handled the same number of trains that they did 50 years ago......

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