airplaneguy
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TPA Landings Pre-911

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:20 pm

At TPA, when aircraft are landing on 1L and/or 1R, they first do a southbound downwind leg, and then do a U-turn just south of MacDill AFB and the Interbay peninsula to line up with the runways. I'm thinking this was introduced post 9-11 when flying over military bases became prohibited. Prior to 9-11, was that U-turn over the base, north of base, or has this just always been the pattern for TPA landings? TIA
 
mmo
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:08 pm

IIRC, it's always been that way. If you turned North of MacDill you'd be too high, turning over MacDill you would be right in their airspace, so the only option is to turn to the south of it.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:14 pm

Where’d you get the idea overflight of military bases was prohibited?
 
Max Q
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:42 am

Usual restriction when landing north was to stay at 2600’ until north of Mdill


You better be configured and slowed at that point as that leaves you with the glide slope at almost full deflection down



As well as operating into TPA occasionally I commuted to and from there for years and saw many flubbed, too fast, too high approaches and the occasional landing where I knew we were at idle thrust throughout the approach and landing


Not good, you have to be ready for the usual slam dunk at TPA


The 727 made it easy !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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IAHFLYR
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:21 pm

Max Q wrote:
Usual restriction when landing north was to stay at 2600’ until north of Mdill


You better be configured and slowed at that point as that leaves you with the glide slope at almost full deflection down



As well as operating into TPA occasionally I commuted to and from there for years and saw many flubbed, too fast, too high approaches and the occasional landing where I knew we were at idle thrust throughout the approach and landing


Not good, you have to be ready for the usual slam dunk at TPA


The 727 made it easy !


You're exactly correct, 2,600' over MCF when landing north. Having flown into TPA numerous times since 9-11 and before seems like it has not changed at all.
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n92r03
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:34 pm

Also, the real estate that is considered "south" Tampa is rather pricey with many residents that do not appreciate the sound of jet engines and many people who live there are well connected. A couple of them continue to punish the noise abatement hotline at TPA.

I remember a few years ago that a certain airline was singled out for side-stepping runways so they could land on the east runway (their gates are on the east side of TPA). :) Of course there was an uproar of residents complaining of the noise.

I only wish the mighty 727 was still around, but that is another story for another thread.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:50 pm

2,600’ over McDill only allows the MCF tower airspace to run the VFR pattern and any IFR arrivals/departures. With essentially nobody in the overhead pattern, I’d suspect the restriction could be modified.

GF
 
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tb727
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:46 am

If you aren't ready for it, it's a little bit of work in the Airbus to get it down if you are fast over MacDill. Slippery thing. Miss the 727, if you can see it in the window, you can land on it.
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Max Q
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:05 am

tb727 wrote:
If you aren't ready for it, it's a little bit of work in the Airbus to get it down if you are fast over MacDill. Slippery thing. Miss the 727, if you can see it in the window, you can land on it.



Exactly!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
Woodreau
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:49 am

Same thing on the 18s in MCO. after overflying Orlando Executive at 2,500ft, it’s time to see how poorly an Airbus imitates a flying brick. - not very well.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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tb727
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:32 am

Woodreau wrote:
Same thing on the 18s in MCO. after overflying Orlando Executive at 2,500ft, it’s time to see how poorly an Airbus imitates a flying brick. - not very well.


At least we have the RNAV visual now to those, still need to be slowed and ready, otherwise, whew!
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Max Q
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:59 am

Woodreau wrote:
Same thing on the 18s in MCO. after overflying Orlando Executive at 2,500ft, it’s time to see how poorly an Airbus imitates a flying brick. - not very well.



Always fun to do this in the 757,

At a minimum I’d be back to flaps 20 man speed over executive, then once clear gear down f25 and 30 to do the high dive back onto a normal glideslope


Better not be fast or you’ll never make it down, the 757 is no 727 !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
e38
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:27 pm

with regard to both these approaches--approach to Runway 01L at Tampa and Runways 18L/R at Orlando, I have found that with proper planning, neither approach is a big deal.

Cross the appropriate points (MacDill AFB at Tampa and Executive airport/ORL VOR at Orlando) at the specified altitude, with the aircraft fully configured for landing (gear down; flaps at the landing setting--usually full; and airspeed at final approach airspeed-Vapp or Vref+5 or whatever it is for your aircraft), and these approaches are absolutely routine--nothing challenging or unusual at all. I've done it in various types of aircraft; yes, even the Airbus 319/320/321 series.

e38
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:22 pm

tb727 wrote:
If you aren't ready for it, it's a little bit of work in the Airbus to get it down if you are fast over MacDill. Slippery thing. Miss the 727, if you can see it in the window, you can land on it.


It is true that an Airbus is pretty slippery, but it is possible to land an A330 doing 300+ knots, and thus clean, at 12 miles from the threshold and 3000 feet. Useful manoeuvre if you really, really need to get on the ground in a hurry. Don't be slow configuring though.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:59 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
tb727 wrote:
If you aren't ready for it, it's a little bit of work in the Airbus to get it down if you are fast over MacDill. Slippery thing. Miss the 727, if you can see it in the window, you can land on it.


It is true that an Airbus is pretty slippery, but it is possible to land an A330 doing 300+ knots, and thus clean, at 12 miles from the threshold and 3000 feet. Useful manoeuvre if you really, really need to get on the ground in a hurry. Don't be slow configuring though.


And those who fly “by the book” everyday, don’t experiment in the sim and work for an organization that uses FOQA as a discipline hammer would never learn that.
 
B6JFKH81
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:29 am

n92r03 wrote:
Also, the real estate that is considered "south" Tampa is rather pricey with many residents that do not appreciate the sound of jet engines and many people who live there are well connected. A couple of them continue to punish the noise abatement hotline at TPA.

I remember a few years ago that a certain airline was singled out for side-stepping runways so they could land on the east runway (their gates are on the east side of TPA). :) Of course there was an uproar of residents complaining of the noise.

I only wish the mighty 727 was still around, but that is another story for another thread.


Indeed, I believe one of the waterfront homes in Culbreath Isles just sold for $7.5m. Lots of beautiful and big homes up in that area.

I live on the on the water on Westshore south of Gandy so I have the 1L arrivals dropping gear right in front of my balcony. Noise is typically not a problem since they are over the bay anyway. However, we do get some days where the pattern get cuts short, and they buzz over my place turning to final on 1L, quite a bit lower than the standard approach...always startles me.

When 1L is closed and they're running 1R arrivals, that's when they're buzzing the entire S. Tampa peninsula and I'm sure there are some complain calls being made. I just pour another glass of wine and continue to watch the planes as I float in the pool LOL
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
Woodreau
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:12 am

Starlionblue wrote:
tb727 wrote:
If you aren't ready for it, it's a little bit of work in the Airbus to get it down if you are fast over MacDill. Slippery thing. Miss the 727, if you can see it in the window, you can land on it.


It is true that an Airbus is pretty slippery, but it is possible to land an A330 doing 300+ knots, and thus clean, at 12 miles from the threshold and 3000 feet. Useful manoeuvre if you really, really need to get on the ground in a hurry. Don't be slow configuring though.


We got to play around in the sim one day after completing EET training... The FO played around, ended up flying towards JFK. About 3 miles out from JFK at 3000ft AGL at 300kts clean, the FO says " You have control."

Wasn't expecting him to do that - I thought he'd just play around some more.

3 miles out lined up on 31L at 3000ft AGL at 300kts, now that he unexpectedly gave me control, I decided see if I could land on 31L doing an overhead break that ive heard military guys do, but I as a civilian aviator had never done. Kept flying down the 31L centerline passing the departure end, flight idle, 45 degree left bank in a shallow descent to 1500ft AGL to enter the downwind, bled off speed and altitude in the turn, dropped the flaps on schedule as the aircraft decelerated. by the time the aircraft decelerated, it was nicely positioned for the base turn to final, gear down, final flaps and landed.

It was like flying the 1900 again flying into nontowered fields entering the midfield downwind at 1500ft AGL at 248kts to land.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:53 am

Nice!

If you're really in a hurry, drop the gear before you extend flaps (non-standard). It has the highest limiting speed after all, and it will slow you down fast. :D
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
n92r03
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:32 pm

Slightly off topic but... As I was driving over the bridge yesterday, it was very windy from the northwest so the DL 757 on approach looked like it was in slow motion...quite the angle as the nose was much higher than the tail. Anyway, it got me thinking about the time years ago that I was driving eastbound on the bridge in the middle of the day and a Blue Angel came in from the south, hauling @$$ and did the "carrier landing" loop around. Apparently it was visiting to review airshow plans, whatever, it was very cool all things considered.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:43 pm

Not a “carrier landing loop”; an overhead pattern or colloquially, “the break”.
 
n92r03
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Re: TPA Landings Pre-911

Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not a “carrier landing loop”; an overhead pattern or colloquially, “the break”.


Sorry about that, I was unsure what it was called. I lived in San Diego in the mid 90's and worked near Miramar. Saw the good ole Tomcats do them every day and never knew the actual term. Again going off-topic, coolest "break" I ever witnessed was a B-1 coming in to Miramar for the air show and it basically did the break, starting with swept wings and got almost to the 805 freeway and circled back around for landing. :)

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