samuelx88
Topic Author
Posts: 65
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If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:42 am

I have made some tables showing what would happen if the 120 flights per week between the Province of Québec and France were well distributed between Montréal (YUL) and Québec City (YQB). For those who don't know about Montréal and Québec city, they are respectively the largest and the second-largest French-speaking cities in North America, with Québec City being the capital of the province. Both cities are separated by 3 hours of highway.

So this is the current distribution of flight between the Province of Québec and France for next summer

Image

Because of the lack of flights and higher fares from YQB, 1 million passengers per year drive from YQB to YUL for their flight, according to the Journal de Québec.


Now, if those 120 flights per week were distributed proportionally between Québec City and Montréal with respect to their population, number of tourists, number of HQs (average of 130 employees in each) and their current passenger numbers, it would look like that:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



I have a general understanding of how airlines choose their routes. However, I don't find any reasons justifying 116 flights/week from YUL and only 4 flights/week from YQB. Even YHZ (Halifax) has more than that despite having less than half the population of YQB. Also, it doesn't make sense that Air France is still not flying to YQB and sends up to 4 widebodies a day to YUL.

What should YQB, the Government and Québec Tourism Authority do to deal with that problem? Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

* The number of flights is round up to the nearest integer for YUL and that number is subtracted from the current number of flights per week to obtain the theoretical number of flights from YQB.
 
Newfoundland84
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:01 am

Airlines care about money.

If you could post some data linking your data to how that translates to money for the airline then there might be an argument.

YHZ is the hub for millions in the maritimes with no local alternative.

YQB is too close to the overpowering YUL. If it made logistical or financial sense you’d think someone would do it, but for one flight a week it just doesn’t
 
Gemuser
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:05 am

It is because the airlines mainly, AF & AC I presume, think they can make MORE money with the current distribution of flights than any other. End of story!
It may not make sense from outside but the airlines have FAR more data available to them than we have.

Gemuser
 
MIflyer12
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:12 am

The phrase you need is 'integer constraints'. One flight a week YQB-xxx is worthless. If represents the pervasive quality of intellect in the tourism office it's hopeless.
 
9252fly
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:38 am

YQB lacks the connectivity that YUL offers to and from destinations throughout North America and beyond. Not all traffic in and out of YUL is O&D. Airlines as already mentioned analyze data to maximize profitability and if the data supported the addition or an increase in services, you can be assured they would as they are greedy rather than spiteful.
 
ironyClad
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:10 am

YUL and YYZ are both major hubs with a great number of international, transborder, and domestic connections. A great deal of flights are routed through these two hubs, including many daily flights from YQB.

Having centralized hubs such as these provides great savings in maintenance and logistics. It permits the airlines to fill their flights and operate more profitably.

YUL is the headquarters for Air Canada, Air Transat, Air Inuit, and also has numerous aviation companies in the local area such as Lockheed Martin, Rolls Royce, Bombardier, and Pratt and Whitney Canada. Thus, it provides a large experienced workforce to support the operations.

YYZ is Air Canada's largest hub, and is a short connecting flight from YUL, YQB, and YOW. It is also an aerospace behemoth, and is full of staff to support all of the flights and maintenance and other operational needs of its hub.

Both of these hubs are close enough to YQB to have kept it a spoke for these and many other reasons. While there is certainly merit for direct flights, going as far as making YQB a third major hub in such close proximity would be an expensive endeavor for any airline, especially a foreign operator such as Air France if they wanted to establish such a hub. They would need a lot of staff, and connections with codeshare partners to fill their flights and keep them economical.
 
ironyClad
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:55 am

Hmm, cannot delete posts. Well, I feel I was a bit too reactionary and quick with my post above, and not as clear as I would've liked to be.

From what I understand, once the MAX is ungrounded, there will be some improvement to the number of flights from YQB to France.
 
goldorak
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:06 am

samuelx88 wrote:
Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province. Quebec City is a must-see place and they go to/from YUL. French tourists always spend a few days also in Montreal, so flying to/from YUL is not a problem.
France-YQB or reverse is a pure holiday/VFR traffic (virtually no or very little business traffic), so legacy carriers like AF or AC will never fill the front of the plane. Leisure carriers are (or were) present on this route (Corsair, Air Transat), and if there was such a business case, I am sure they would add flights or have them year round.
What Quebec City needs eventually is a better link with Montreal with a decent train link.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:39 pm

YQB supporters are starting to look like DTW's.

As said before "airlines are about profit". If YQB doesn't have the offer you think it should have is because airline planners have data showing they can make a better profit elsewhere, in this case YUL.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Skywatcher
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:02 pm

When people in YQB start flying more often the services will be provided. As I've stated before, the flying travel rates in YQB are amongst the lowest in North America.

Just because some disgruntled newspaper reporter states that 1 million people per year leak to YUL doesn't mean it's true. It would require an extensive and costly fact based study to ascertain which I really doubt somebody who spent an hour or two writing a newspaper article did.

Speaking of unfair-have you seen how much better the roads and traffic are in YQB than YUL? I would argue that billions of provincial tax revenue are sucked out of YUL to subsidize YQB infrastructure. Also, didn't YUL taxpayers pay for a large part of the brand new underutilized Videotron centre (indoor arena) which just happened to benefit the owner of the Journal de Quebec (sponsor of the 1 million leaking passenger article)?
I would be alright if YQB taxpayers would help out with the roads in YUL in exchange for a few flights per week to France.
 
RJLover
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:40 pm

Montreal is the destination, Quebec City is the side trip
Last Flight(s): YHZ-YYZ // YYZ-YHZ Next Flight(s):
 
westaust
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:46 pm

Best case scenario for YQB would be daily flight to Paris year round, forget about provincial cities, it would need to be a plane with not too many business class seats, but also one of the smaller plane the carrier has, since the market would not sustain 450 seats daily like those high density configurations that AC or AF have since the flight would be purely O/D with no little to no feed at YQB's end. Surely the max ungrouding or new A321 LR/XLR could be what YQB need, just like it's the case of YYT or YHZ to LHR with AC.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:53 pm

I have to wonder why AF doesn’t consider the A321neo for routes like that. This is likely where AC would desire to use the MAX 8 or MAX 9 when allowed to fly again.
 
Thibault973
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:08 pm

goldorak wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.
 
TObound
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:36 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I have to wonder why AF doesn’t consider the A321neo for routes like that. This is likely where AC would desire to use the MAX 8 or MAX 9 when allowed to fly again.


AF doesn't have 321NEOs on order AFAIK. It's pretty obvious that CDG-YQB on a 321LR would do fantastically. I am going to really surprised if AC doesn't launch this route on a MAX 8/9 within a year after RTS of the MAX.

TP's coming YUL-LIS service shows how perfect the 321LR is for exactly these kinds of TATL routes.
 
TObound
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:16 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.


There's a project under way to get this going:

https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects-in ... uency-rail

However, they are still in definition, and even if shovels get in the ground in 2 years, we're looking at 4 years of construction. Best case scenario is probably service in 2026. Projected travel time from Montreal to Quebec City is supposed to be supposed to be 2 hrs. The hiccup is that VIA doesn't have access to the Mount Royal tunnel. That means either a transfer inside Montreal or a 15 min longer trip. All being sorted out.....

If this comes to pass the impact on aviation will be notable. Ottawa to Dorval airport drops to about an hour by train, with hourly departures from each city. Plenty of otherwise YOW travelers might choose to train to YUL and fly from there. Likewise, some YQB travelers may choose to self-connect. That would make YUL even more important and diminish the case for YOW in particular and YQB to a lesser extent.

All that said the case for AF to launch a daily 321 to YQB is probably strong, if they can get LRs.
 
samuelx88
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:53 pm

In 2010, YQB had direct flights to ORY, CDG, NTE, MRS and BOD. Since that year, there has been a 500k passengers increase in the airport. ORY and NTE stayed for some years however, the route was stopped when corsair got into financial trouble in the early 2010s. They were using their 747s instead of their A330s. And I don't know why Transat removed Marseille and Bordeaux (both operated by a A310 for some years). Transat could put them back on their smaller A321neo. And lastly, Transat cut YQB-CDG from 5 to 3 weekly (back to 4 next summer) and it was downgraded from a mix of A330s and A310s to A321neo only.

Since 2010, YQB went from 5 routes to only 1 route to France. The frequency of YQB-France went from 10x weekly to only 4x weekly. And of course, during that time, the number of French tourists kept increasing.
 
goldorak
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:59 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.

Forget about the train currently. Just rent a car. And you can travel around like go to Ile d'Orléans. Québec city is a lovely town, totally unique in North America. As a French you will feel very well there (I am French too :smile: ).
 
Gwened
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:00 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride


The Orléans Express bus service takes only 3 hours and is much cheaper.
 
Dominion301
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:59 am

TObound wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.


There's a project under way to get this going:

https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects-in ... uency-rail

However, they are still in definition, and even if shovels get in the ground in 2 years, we're looking at 4 years of construction. Best case scenario is probably service in 2026. Projected travel time from Montreal to Quebec City is supposed to be supposed to be 2 hrs. The hiccup is that VIA doesn't have access to the Mount Royal tunnel. That means either a transfer inside Montreal or a 15 min longer trip. All being sorted out.....

If this comes to pass the impact on aviation will be notable. Ottawa to Dorval airport drops to about an hour by train, with hourly departures from each city. Plenty of otherwise YOW travelers might choose to train to YUL and fly from there. Likewise, some YQB travelers may choose to self-connect. That would make YUL even more important and diminish the case for YOW in particular and YQB to a lesser extent.

All that said the case for AF to launch a daily 321 to YQB is probably strong, if they can get LRs.


If HFR ever becomes a reality, it’s only going to cut Ottawa-Montreal trip times by at most 15 minutes, not in half, but yes the frequency would increase substantially. The Ottawa-Montreal track is already de facto dedicated right-of-way as what little freight traffic there is runs at night. I don’t think YOW-LHR or YOW-FRA are threatened by HFR, especially with light rail to YOW already under construction vs conceptual HFR. On top of that, YUL will reach runway capacity at peak hours eventually without a 3rd parallel.

If anything, it threatens AF’s YUL bus and Greyhound more than YQB or YOW. YOW already has huge leakage to YUL as it is. The only difference HFR might bring is fewer new transatlantic expansion opportunities for YOW...not like there’s ever been abundance of service to begin with thanks to the shadows Montreal and Toronto cast!

Even HFR on Ottawa-Toronto, where the biggest time savings of any route would be realized, isn’t a huge threat to Porter’s YOW-YTZ as it’ll still be almost impossible to do a Toronto-Ottawa same-day return by train...PD probably carry at least 1,000 same-day biz pax per day. Rapidair isn’t threatened much either by HFR.

Getting back on topic, like I have said before, the new generation of narrowbodies presents YQB & YOW with the best opportunity for new service to Europe as there’s finally aircraft capable of matching size with local demand...apart from existing services.
 
alo2yyz
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:55 am

Thibault973 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.


At the risk of continuing to derail (heh) the thread, if anyone thinks North Americans will ever 'get our act together' on passenger rail...well, I have some oceanfront property in Saskatchewan to sell to them.
 
AC183
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:35 am

The term 'critical mass' is really important in all things economic. When you start to get large enough to have economies of scale, it starts to snowball. Until you reach that point, it's difficult.

Airlines don't much favour less-than-daily flights anymore And the charter carriers with weekly frequencies aren't as prominent as they used to be. So probably all of the other cities other than Paris can be taken off that comparison. And you can probably take 1/3 of the Montreal-Paris out of the comparison from connections elsewhere, and people driving from Ottawa and elsewhere in the region. When doing so, the proportions are still a little towards Montreal, but don't look that lopsided.

The increasing narrowobdy traffic on the Atlantic routes might help get something going for YQB sooner that might otherwise be expected, but I'm not sure how much to expect before overall traffic at YQB starts to approach the traffic level of YHZ.
 
Thibault973
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:47 pm

goldorak wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.

Forget about the train currently. Just rent a car. And you can travel around like go to Ile d'Orléans. Québec city is a lovely town, totally unique in North America. As a French you will feel very well there (I am French too :smile: ).


The thing is, with super cheap air faires (my next CDG-YUL trip cost me 300$ return on AC) more and more Frenchs are doing like me, 3 days week-ends to Montreal which doesnt really leaves a lot of time to go up there.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:09 pm

AC183 wrote:
The term 'critical mass' is really important in all things economic. When you start to get large enough to have economies of scale, it starts to snowball. Until you reach that point, it's difficult.

Airlines don't much favour less-than-daily flights anymore And the charter carriers with weekly frequencies aren't as prominent as they used to be. So probably all of the other cities other than Paris can be taken off that comparison. And you can probably take 1/3 of the Montreal-Paris out of the comparison from connections elsewhere, and people driving from Ottawa and elsewhere in the region. When doing so, the proportions are still a little towards Montreal, but don't look that lopsided.

The increasing narrowobdy traffic on the Atlantic routes might help get something going for YQB sooner that might otherwise be expected, but I'm not sure how much to expect before overall traffic at YQB starts to approach the traffic level of YHZ.

Critical mass, as you note is important. YUL, as I'm sure you know, adds connections to help that critical mass.

The narrowbody traffic across the Atlantic will be at new economic price points. But only the cities with slots will participate. Oh, BA at LHR will participate too as TATL slits should be made available by upgauging regional flights that are likely to be less lucrative (obviously, no slots lost to the lucrative routes).

TATL is going to adapt to a more P2P paradigm.

Lightsaber
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hohd
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:31 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.


Thibault973 is a prime example for not going to Quebec City due to lack of direct flights. (….but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride....). There may be others like Thibault. A 3 hour drive is a deterrent, so it would be beneficial for Quebec to have atleast have a daily service to CDG (may be a single aisle aircraft). Smaller cities in US and Canada have TATL flights and quite a few of them are within 2 or 3 hrs of each other.
 
Bhoy
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:34 pm

alo2yyz wrote:
At the risk of continuing to derail (heh) the thread, if anyone thinks North Americans will ever 'get our act together' on passenger rail...well, I have some oceanfront property in Saskatchewan to sell to them.

Don’t be so negative. Passenger Rail worked really well in North Haverbrook.
 
samuelx88
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:50 pm

hohd wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.


Thibault973 is a prime example for not going to Quebec City due to lack of direct flights. (….but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride....). There may be others like Thibault. A 3 hour drive is a deterrent, so it would be beneficial for Quebec to have atleast have a daily service to CDG (may be a single aisle aircraft). Smaller cities in US and Canada have TATL flights and quite a few of them are within 2 or 3 hrs of each other.


And perhaps I am wrong, but as the population in Québec gets older, that 3 hours of driving (and driving through the afternoon traffic of Montréal) can get very tiring for those retired people who want to travel. That might make some of those people not travel to France as often as they would if there was a daily flight from YQB. With easier access to CDG from YQB, more people would travel more often to France, instead of perhaps going to Cuba which is currently the easiest destination to go from YQB.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:38 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Because at the moment, according to studies, the lack of flights is the 3rd biggest obstacle for the tourism numbers growth of Québec City.

Talking about the France-Quebec traffic, I don’t buy that a second. I don’t know a single French tourist who has not been to Quebec City during his holiday in la Belle Province.


Well I am French, I’ve been 5 times to La Belle Province and I have never been to Quebec City. Each time I go I promise myself to go check it out as it’s said to be beautiful there but I really can’t be bothered with the 3:30 hours train ride. Canada really needs to get its act together when it comes to intercity rail. At least in the Ontario-Quebec city corridor. It’s currently inefficient and super expensive. I’ll be going back to Montreal again on may and hopefully I ll find the courage to do a day trip to Quebec.


Yes Quebec is quite pretty, and has a very unique "old world" feel for a north American City (I've found myself eating dinner at a bistro, and forgetting that I wasn't in France on more than one occasion).

It's well worth visiting... for a day or 2. Because, there's really not much there apart from the quaint streets.

Montreal, on the other hand, is a major City with a lot to offer for tourists as well as a major business centre. Growing up in Canada Montreal was THE city up to the late 1970's - the Expo, The Summer Olympics,the first MLB franchise outside of the USA, there was reason that Mirabel looked like a good idea. While some if that glory may have faded it is still a great City to visit. So to me, having visited each 10+, it makes sense that YUL has the vast majority of flights as between the two, even before considering the effect of the hubs and HQs.

All of that said, I fully expect that the next generation of single-aisle TATL flights will include some more direct flying to YQB.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:59 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
And perhaps I am wrong, but as the population in Québec gets older, that 3 hours of driving (and driving through the afternoon traffic of Montréal) can get very tiring for those retired people who want to travel. That might make some of those people not travel to France as often as they would if there was a daily flight from YQB. With easier access to CDG from YQB, more people would travel more often to France, instead of perhaps going to Cuba which is currently the easiest destination to go from YQB.

I can follow you up to a certain point but if those "getting older" Québec inhabitants are too tired to drive 3 hrs, then I don't think they will survive a transatlantic trip to France and 6 hrs time difference :stirthepot: :D
 
Thibault973
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:11 am

AC is adding 3 additionnal frequencies next summer from YUL to Paris

AC810 YUL 2155 - 1050+1 CDG 246
AC811 CDG 1700 - 1845 YUL 246

So YUL-CDG will see 11 flights on some days...just whoua
 
samuelx88
Topic Author
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:51 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
AC is adding 3 additionnal frequencies next summer from YUL to Paris

AC810 YUL 2155 - 1050+1 CDG 246
AC811 CDG 1700 - 1845 YUL 246

So YUL-CDG will see 11 flights on some days...just whoua


Now YUL has 123x weekly vs 4x from YQB

A 3x weekly YQB-CDG on AC would have been great.

And AC could have used that A330 to fly YUL-YQB to replace one of their A319 and some Q400 and then fly YQB-CDG. If tens of thousands of people from Quebec City can fly YQB-YUL-CDG (because they don't have the choice to), I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for some Montrealers to fly YUL-YQB-CDG if the 10 other frequencies on that day aren't enough.

I'm federalist but if Quebecair would still exist, that wouldn't be a problem I guess

Between 2004 and 2019, Air Canada didn't add any destination from YQB. And as far as I can remember, AC never had any mainline in that airport.

But Air France is definitely worst
 
User avatar
phlsfo
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:18 am

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:01 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
hohd wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:

And perhaps I am wrong, but as the population in Québec gets older, that 3 hours of driving (and driving through the afternoon traffic of Montréal) can get very tiring for those retired people who want to travel. That might make some of those people not travel to France as often as they would if there was a daily flight from YQB. With easier access to CDG from YQB, more people would travel more often to France, instead of perhaps going to Cuba which is currently the easiest destination to go from YQB.



This is all anecdotal. Where are the hard numbers to show that an aging population = profitable flights? If anything that would be a warning sign for an airline trying to start a route as it means that they would be catering to a price-conscious market that is shrinking (if the population is aging that means people are not moving there and that the target market will only shrink).

Like it has been said many times before, if this was that obvious and would be profitable, airlines would already be flying it.
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:19 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
AC is adding 3 additionnal frequencies next summer from YUL to Paris

AC810 YUL 2155 - 1050+1 CDG 246
AC811 CDG 1700 - 1845 YUL 246

So YUL-CDG will see 11 flights on some days...just whoua


Now YUL has 123x weekly vs 4x from YQB

A 3x weekly YQB-CDG on AC would have been great.

And AC could have used that A330 to fly YUL-YQB to replace one of their A319 and some Q400 and then fly YQB-CDG. If tens of thousands of people from Quebec City can fly YQB-YUL-CDG (because they don't have the choice to), I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for some Montrealers to fly YUL-YQB-CDG if the 10 other frequencies on that day aren't enough.

I'm federalist but if Quebecair would still exist, that wouldn't be a problem I guess

Between 2004 and 2019, Air Canada didn't add any destination from YQB. And as far as I can remember, AC never had any mainline in that airport.

But Air France is definitely worst


Are YQB-CUN/PUJ not new destinations for AC?
For a population of 800k, you should be happy to see aircraft as large as the 321 operating in YQB.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:00 pm

I look at this thread and see similarities between YQB and CBR.

Australia's national capital is around 3.5hrs by road from Sydney, and has a regional population of around 600k (420k in the city itself). Average incomes are comparatively high, and it is a nice little tourist destination, in the same way that many capital cities are. Yet until 4 years ago it had no international flights, until SQ started a flight SIN-CBR-WLG-CBR-SIN (the WLG tag has since been dropped). QR has a DOH-SYD-CBR-SYD-DOH service, but mainly do it can get extra SYD capacity.

Is YQB offering significant incentives to attract TATL flights? Otherwise, like CBR and SYD, it's just not far enough or "attractive" enough for services in its own right. (I have visited Montreal, but not QC - QC was 3.5hrs too far in the wrong direction for our road trip. I have driven to Canberra many times).
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12017
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:49 am

I've been to YUL but not YQB. My next stop was Toronto as I was participating in the World Youth Day 2002 (my group filled a 550+ seats Corsair 747). A cousin of mine lived in YQB for a year with his girlfriend who has Canadian citizenship, but they didn't like it, they moved to Nice instead. Something about the difficulty to meet people when you drive everywhere.

I agree with others that for French tourists, the current set-up is not really a problem, as people want to go to Montreal anyway.

3 hours of driving is mentioned, but aren't there flights between YUL and YQB, that business people might take ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
samuelx88
Topic Author
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 am

yulexpansion wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
AC is adding 3 additionnal frequencies next summer from YUL to Paris

AC810 YUL 2155 - 1050+1 CDG 246
AC811 CDG 1700 - 1845 YUL 246

So YUL-CDG will see 11 flights on some days...just whoua


Now YUL has 123x weekly vs 4x from YQB

A 3x weekly YQB-CDG on AC would have been great.

And AC could have used that A330 to fly YUL-YQB to replace one of their A319 and some Q400 and then fly YQB-CDG. If tens of thousands of people from Quebec City can fly YQB-YUL-CDG (because they don't have the choice to), I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for some Montrealers to fly YUL-YQB-CDG if the 10 other frequencies on that day aren't enough.

I'm federalist but if Quebecair would still exist, that wouldn't be a problem I guess

Between 2004 and 2019, Air Canada didn't add any destination from YQB. And as far as I can remember, AC never had any mainline in that airport.

But Air France is definitely worst


Are YQB-CUN/PUJ not new destinations for AC?
For a population of 800k, you should be happy to see aircraft as large as the 321 operating in YQB.


CUN and PUJ were announced in 2019, which is why I've used the word "between" :)

And you're right, the A319-20-21 are the perfect size for this airport. And if even these are too big, AF also has some A318 which could make it through the Atlantic. Better than nothing
 
samuelx88
Topic Author
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:24 am

Kent350787 wrote:

Is YQB offering significant incentives to attract TATL flights? Otherwise, like CBR and SYD, it's just not far enough or "attractive" enough for services in its own right. (I have visited Montreal, but not QC - QC was 3.5hrs too far in the wrong direction for our road trip. I have driven to Canberra many times).


Right, Canberra has the same kind of problems, like not having any flights to New Zealand. Cardiff is another good comparison.

The tourism board is willing to give incentives for it, although no number were released. Perhaps it's not high enough. One of the problem that YQB used to have is the management problem with the previous CEO who left in April (for example very bad relationships with airlines and very high airport fees). The new CEO of YQB, who used to work for YYC, has visited Air France's vice CEO 2 weeks ago and he said that he's confident that AF will start flying to YQB in summer 2021.
 
samuelx88
Topic Author
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:30 am

Aesma wrote:
3 hours of driving is mentioned, but aren't there flights between YUL and YQB, that business people might take ?


Yes, up to 9 flights a day with a duration of about 50 minutes. But with security time and risk of the connecting flight being delayed, it takes about the same time as driving.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:05 am

samuelx88 wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
AC is adding 3 additionnal frequencies next summer from YUL to Paris

AC810 YUL 2155 - 1050+1 CDG 246
AC811 CDG 1700 - 1845 YUL 246

So YUL-CDG will see 11 flights on some days...just whoua


Now YUL has 123x weekly vs 4x from YQB

A 3x weekly YQB-CDG on AC would have been great.

And AC could have used that A330 to fly YUL-YQB to replace one of their A319 and some Q400 and then fly YQB-CDG. If tens of thousands of people from Quebec City can fly YQB-YUL-CDG (because they don't have the choice to), I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for some Montrealers to fly YUL-YQB-CDG if the 10 other frequencies on that day aren't enough.

I'm federalist but if Quebecair would still exist, that wouldn't be a problem I guess

Between 2004 and 2019, Air Canada didn't add any destination from YQB. And as far as I can remember, AC never had any mainline in that airport.

But Air France is definitely worst


AC will never use a widebody on YUL-YQB with little O&D traffic. They only nowadays have 1x daily widebody on both Rapidair routes that have huge O&D numbers. AC would only ever consider YQB (or YOW) to CDG on a MAX oe 321(X)LR should the former ever get off the ground again and should AC ever order the latter/or the T-SHIRT takeover gets approved. YQB-YVR summer seasonal on Rouge is more likely though than YQB-CDG on AC metal...unless the TS brand eventually disappears.
 
westaust
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:57 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
3 hours of driving is mentioned, but aren't there flights between YUL and YQB, that business people might take ?


Yes, up to 9 flights a day with a duration of about 50 minutes. But with security time and risk of the connecting flight being delayed, it takes about the same time as driving.


With OSS now in place for flights from Europe in YUL on AC, connections are much better and faster as you don't have to claim your luggages or clear security again in YUL + dedicated immigration checkpoint.
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:01 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
yulexpansion wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:

Now YUL has 123x weekly vs 4x from YQB

A 3x weekly YQB-CDG on AC would have been great.

And AC could have used that A330 to fly YUL-YQB to replace one of their A319 and some Q400 and then fly YQB-CDG. If tens of thousands of people from Quebec City can fly YQB-YUL-CDG (because they don't have the choice to), I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem for some Montrealers to fly YUL-YQB-CDG if the 10 other frequencies on that day aren't enough.

I'm federalist but if Quebecair would still exist, that wouldn't be a problem I guess

Between 2004 and 2019, Air Canada didn't add any destination from YQB. And as far as I can remember, AC never had any mainline in that airport.

But Air France is definitely worst


Are YQB-CUN/PUJ not new destinations for AC?
For a population of 800k, you should be happy to see aircraft as large as the 321 operating in YQB.


CUN and PUJ were announced in 2019, which is why I've used the word "between" :)

And you're right, the A319-20-21 are the perfect size for this airport. And if even these are too big, AF also has some A318 which could make it through the Atlantic. Better than nothing



Nice one with the 318... You realize only BA makes it work on an all-J config between LCY-JFK with a stopover in SNN. Somewhat more premium than CDG-YQB ;)
 
samuelx88
Topic Author
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:23 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
Nice one with the 318... You realize only BA makes it work on an all-J config between LCY-JFK with a stopover in SNN. Somewhat more premium than CDG-YQB ;)


The A318 has a range of 5750 km while the distance between YQB and CDG is about 5200 km. So about 500 extra range. And if ever they run out of fuel and it's unplanned, they can land in Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: If the number of flights between Québec and France was proportional between YUL and YQB

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:56 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
yulexpansion wrote:
Nice one with the 318... You realize only BA makes it work on an all-J config between LCY-JFK with a stopover in SNN. Somewhat more premium than CDG-YQB ;)


The A318 has a range of 5750 km while the distance between YQB and CDG is about 5200 km. So about 500 extra range. And if ever they run out of fuel and it's unplanned, they can land in Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon


If that were ever in the cards, AF would have ETOPS’d some 318s by now. I flew the 318 once on CDG-TXL. Glad I got to try such a rare bird.

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