bennett123
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DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:10 am

I understand that the DC10-30 had an additional set of undercarriage.

Was this correct?.

Also were there any other distinguishing features?.

MTIA.
 
slcguy
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:28 pm

Yes the DC-10-30 and -40s had the third undercarriage under the fuselage like the MD-11 did later. They also had a 10 foot longer wing as compared to the DC-10-10, 165' vs 155'. The primary difference between the -30 and -40 are engines with the 30 having GE and 40 having PW. These are the most obvious differences. I'm sure there are some other smaller visual differences but wouldn't be noticed without a close up inspection of the aircraft.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:26 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I understand that the DC10-30 had an additional set of undercarriage.

Was this correct?.

Somewhere on the photo database there is a close-up of the gear, although IMO the angle doesn't exactly help.

Instead, I prefer the photos below.
For the Northwest DC-10-30, it states
"Touching down. Note that the middle gear actualy did not touch down {yet!}, while both main gears already did!

Then we have two similar shots, same photographer, same location, (same taxiway), eight years apart, one with, and one without center gear.

The text accompanying the third photo I remember from some years ago, and it's a small miracle that I was able to find it again.
National 42 heavy is seen {at LAX} on taxiway Echo approaching runway 24L to MIA.
Note her center gear is not down. Prior to landing in MIA, center gear will be extended.

So what does that actually tell us?
Did the a/c take-off from LAX eastbound with a lighter load, but set its gear ready in anticipation of a heavier load on the return westbound flight?
Was it that the extra gear was less critical on a "heavy" take-off (at LAX), but more important for a "heavy" landing at MIA? (even though the fuel load would be reduced by that point)



And finally... A Continental DC-10-30 with everything cleaned up except the center gear.! :o
"This photo shows the a/c doing a fly-by {after take-off} to figure out why the center bogey was still extended.
The A/C landed safely and it was discovered upon inspection that the gear pin had not been removed. {the flight then continued}"

You're welcome! :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
slcguy
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:43 pm

Thank you Sheik, didn't know the use of the third gear on the -30 was optional depending on weight. At first seeing that pic I thought it was a DC-10-10 which never had the third gear. But yes that pic is a DC-10-30 without the third gear extended. Makes sense that the third gear might not be needed for takeoff when the gear is just supporting the weight but would be needed on landing when a less than smooth touchdown will put some heavy loads on the gear.

Just realized that the fire fighting tanker DC-10-30s have the belly tanks for retardant, they don't use the third landing gear ever.
Last edited by slcguy on Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:56 pm

So having the central undercarriage proves it is a series 30, but lack does not prove it is a series 10.
 
slcguy
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:01 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So having the central undercarriage proves it is a series 30, but lack does not prove it is a series 10.


Bottom line is yes. The difference in wingspan might be the best way to tell. Assuming you can tell 155' and 165' just by looking.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:41 pm

Ok, so I’m not a DC10 expert, but I seriously doubt that extending the center gear was optional. On the MD11, the center gear can be MEL’d (with a significant weight penalty). In the 20’ish years we’ve been flying the aircraft, I suspect you can count the times we’ve applied this MEL on one hand.

If the gear is installed, and operative, it is used. This is not a dump truck where it’s use is determined by weight.

But, like I said, not a DC10 guy, and I may be wrong. Any DC10 drivers out there care to comment?
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You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:22 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Ok, so I’m not a DC10 expert, but I seriously doubt that extending the center gear was optional.

Any DC10 drivers out there care to comment?
I'm not a DC-10 driver, but I've already provided evidence. How many more photos from the database would it take to convince you?
And yes, it looks like National Airlines was a serial offender! :lol:




Not all the photos carry comments about the center gear (or lack of)
Sometimes you just gotta trust your eyes!



Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: DC10 varients

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:57 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I'm not a DC-10 driver, but I've already provided evidence. How many more photos from the database would it take to convince you?


Actually, you haven’t provided evidence. You’ve provided some pictures that show that the aircraft can be operated with the center gear stowed. Not that deploying the gear was optional as part of operations.

By the way, if you look closely at KLM, Aeromexico & Varig, you’ll find the center gear is deployed. It’s all about the angles and perspective.

I’m sure a pilot or 2 will chime in.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:42 am

From the multitude of photos on the database, it is clear that Northwest was one airline that almost never operated it's DC-10-40s with the center gear up, except on rare occasions when, as the caption says, it was an emergency and/or there were no passengers on board.

The other operator of the -40 was Japan Airlines, and they went to the other extreme, removing the center gear completely on a number of their domestically used a/c. :o
I cannot promise you this is one of those a/c. It certainly looks like it to me, but maybe if you look really closely (full image, 300% magnification) you can see something I missed. :roll:


And just for LOLs, here are a pair of A340s pulling the same trick. No center gear to be seen here!

The Air Canada example limped back from HNL with damage caused by a tire blowout. For the next few days (weeks?) it operated at reduced MTOW (i.e. an A343 operating as if it was an A333) with the center u/c door openings sealed over, whilst waiting for new parts from Airbus.

But I'm still not a DC-10 pilot, so you can take it all with a large pinch of salt. It's all about angles and perspective. ;)

p.s. one of the benefits of not deploying the center gear is the possibility of negotiating a reduced landing charge based on the lower certified MTOW.
I can just hear the ghost of Sir Freddie Laker, chuckling quietly in his grave. :lol:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
timh4000
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:38 am

Impressive initial climb out on the JAL noise abatement? Or just the pilot giving it a a good pull on the yoke but it looks pretty steep just off the ground. That would have been a fun take off.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:01 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The other operator of the -40 was Japan Airlines, and they went to the other extreme, removing the center gear completely on a number of their domestically used a/c. :o
I cannot promise you this is one of those a/c. It certainly looks like it to me, but maybe if you look really closely (full image, 300% magnification) you can see something I missed. :roll:


Not quite sure what you’re getting at here. There’s a difference between operating the aircraft with the center gear deactivated/removed and operating the aircraft with the center gear as some kind of optional piece of equipment that is used as necessary.

I don’t see any advantage to being able to selectively use the center gear, as a normal part of operations. Tell me, in your previous post, what scenario do you envision where the gear is not required on takeoff, but would be required on landing? There really isn’t one.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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strfyr51
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:31 am

slcguy wrote:
Thank you Sheik, didn't know the use of the third gear on the -30 was optional depending on weight. At first seeing that pic I thought it was a DC-10-10 which never had the third gear. But yes that pic is a DC-10-30 without the third gear extended. Makes sense that the third gear might not be needed for takeoff when the gear is just supporting the weight but would be needed on landing when a less than smooth touchdown will put some heavy loads on the gear.

Just realized that the fire fighting tanker DC-10-30s have the belly tanks for retardant, they don't use the third landing gear ever.

the canter gear on the DC10-30 could be disabled in the up position which reduced the airplane's max Gross weight and lowered it's landing fees as well As it could be filed flr the lower weight variant of the DC10-15. we once had to do it at United to get a -30 back to ORD from SFO with a suspected Gear seal leak on the Center Gear Strut. We could have for sure jacked the airplane at SFO but they needed the airplane back at ORD so that's what we did. We rarely ever saw the -30's at SFO and the Maintenance Controllers came up with the Idea because I was ready to take the airplane out of service. They fixed it there and the airplane flew ORD-HNL the next day.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:42 am

This site has a wealth of information and tips for spotting the differences between DC-10 variants:

The Ultimate DC-10/MD-11 Guide
https://www.airlinercafe.com/page.php?id=392

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 AT7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 742/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L410 M11/80/90 RJ85 SF3 SU9 T134/154 Y42
 
milhaus
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:22 am

Lufthansa had one A/C Regi D-ADLO with deactivated center NLG. She was used for TLV flights.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:32 am

timh4000 wrote:
Impressive initial climb out on the JAL noise abatement? Or just the pilot giving it a a good pull on the yoke but it looks pretty steep just off the ground. That would have been a fun take off.


Light weight gives a higher initial pitch angle, especially if you're not using a reduced thrust setting. Given it is a domestic flight the weight is probably relatively low.

Noise abatement procedures don't really "start" until 800-1500 feet in most places. Below that you're just climbing out at V2+10 or thereabouts. What pitch angle you need to hold for that speed depends entirely on weight, thrust, and environmental conditions on the day.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KFTG
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:33 am

slcguy wrote:
Just realized that the fire fighting tanker DC-10-30s have the belly tanks for retardant, they don't use the third landing gear ever.

They don't use it because it's physically impossible to extend it.
 
Max Q
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:37 am

strfyr51 wrote:
slcguy wrote:
Thank you Sheik, didn't know the use of the third gear on the -30 was optional depending on weight. At first seeing that pic I thought it was a DC-10-10 which never had the third gear. But yes that pic is a DC-10-30 without the third gear extended. Makes sense that the third gear might not be needed for takeoff when the gear is just supporting the weight but would be needed on landing when a less than smooth touchdown will put some heavy loads on the gear.

Just realized that the fire fighting tanker DC-10-30s have the belly tanks for retardant, they don't use the third landing gear ever.

the canter gear on the DC10-30 could be disabled in the up position which reduced the airplane's max Gross weight and lowered it's landing fees as well As it could be filed flr the lower weight variant of the DC10-15. we once had to do it at United to get a -30 back to ORD from SFO with a suspected Gear seal leak on the Center Gear Strut. We could have for sure jacked the airplane at SFO but they needed the airplane back at ORD so that's what we did. We rarely ever saw the -30's at SFO and the Maintenance Controllers came up with the Idea because I was ready to take the airplane out of service. They fixed it there and the airplane flew ORD-HNL the next day.



Could the center gear be retracted and / or extended with the aircraft on the ground (not on jacks) ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:05 am

fr8mech wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The other operator of the -40 was Japan Airlines, and they went to the other extreme, removing the center gear completely on a number of their domestically used a/c. :o
I cannot promise you this is one of those a/c. It certainly looks like it to me, but maybe if you look really closely (full image, 300% magnification) you can see something I missed. :roll:

Not quite sure what you’re getting at here.
You know what I'm getting at; we both looked at the same images, but saw different things. And yes, I did originally select those images only after close examination at high magnification, because it is so difficult to be certain if the photo angles aren't near head-on. At the end of the day, I am prepared to admit the angles are not good on all the pictures and therefore I'm not 100% certain. You didn't seem to have any problem. I guess you must have better eyes than mine. (And that's ok. )

fr8mech wrote:
There’s a difference between operating the aircraft with the center gear deactivated/removed and operating the aircraft with the center gear as some kind of optional piece of equipment that is used as necessary.
That was never in doubt.
However, the point you seem reluctant to accept are the statements (not just from myself) making the point that one airline at least used it as standard operational procedure (in service, with passengers).

fr8mech wrote:
I don’t see any advantage to being able to selectively use the center gear, as a normal part of operations.
I've hinted at it with the reduced landing fees (providing the airport accepts your arguments), but there is also the issue of wear and tear on extra tires.
Surely you have seen lorries running partially loaded or empty, with one set of wheels lifted?
(variously known as dead axle, drop axle, lift axle, and other terms)
I guess some people might mistake it for a truck carrying a spare wheel.
Image
Thx wikipedia

fr8mech wrote:
Tell me, in your previous post, what scenario do you envision where the gear is not required on takeoff, but would be required on landing? There really isn’t one.
I posed that as a question; I never suggested I had an answer!
But again, you seem much more certain of your own position.
However, since you ask.....it is a known fact that aircraft undercarriage is able to accept certain loads on take-off, whereas it isn't always certified for those same loads when potentially impacting the runway hard on landing. A short domestic flight (such as operated by JAL) might have very similar TOW and landing weights.
Likewise, in an emergency you could deploy the extra gear to save having to dump fuel load after a problem shortly after take-off.
slcguy said some of these things already.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:12 am

Max Q wrote:
Could the center gear be retracted and / or extended with the aircraft on the ground (not on jacks) ?
Yes.
But.....(there's always a "but")
If you simply extend the center gear, something expensive will buckle.
That is why there is a locking pin and chain in the cockpit; it makes you think twice.

IIRC the technique involves depressurizing the center gear oleo strut(s) so that the center gear straightened up on the tarmac without any load.
Once it was locked in position, the strut would be pressurized again.
So, you definitely needed a mechanic, and some kit, but you didn't need to jack the whole aircraft.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:34 pm

milhaus wrote:
Lufthansa had one A/C Regi D-ADLO with deactivated center NLG. She was used for TLV flights.

If the nose landing gear was deactivated, they have bigger problems.
Captain Kevin
 
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fr8mech
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:13 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
That was never in doubt.
However, the point you seem reluctant to accept are the statements (not just from myself) making the point that one airline at least used it as standard operational procedure (in service, with passengers).

I’m reluctant to accept it because it makes no operational sense. I didn’t bring up the procedure on the MD11 because, while I assumed it was similar on the DC10, I wasn’t sure. But, since you added it in a later post, you know that it requires tooling and personnel to retract and extend the center gear on the ground, independent of the main gear. That’s why it doesn’t make operational sense.

The aircraft can be flown with the center gear inoperative, with passengers, only with the MEL applied, or through some other engineering authorization. Not because you want to save wear on your tires and brakes, or absurdly, landing fees.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Surely you have seen lorries running partially loaded or empty, with one set of wheels lifted?


I have and I noted it here:

fr8mech wrote:
This is not a dump truck where it’s use is determined by weight.


SheikhDjibouti wrote:
slcguy said some of these things already.


slcguy provided basis for a circular argument based on your, in my opinion, erroneous statement.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Yes.
But.....(there's always a "but")
If you simply extend the center gear, something expensive will buckle.
That is why there is a locking pin and chain in the cockpit; it makes you think twice.

IIRC the technique involves depressurizing the center gear oleo strut(s) so that the center gear straightened up on the tarmac without any load.
Once it was locked in position, the strut would be pressurized again.
So, you definitely needed a mechanic, and some kit, but you didn't need to jack the whole aircraft.


And, here is where I believe you’re just having a little fun. If you know there is additional equipment and personnel required to do this, then you should understand why it would not be done operationally.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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timh4000
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Re: DC10 varients

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:53 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
Impressive initial climb out on the JAL noise abatement? Or just the pilot giving it a a good pull on the yoke but it looks pretty steep just off the ground. That would have been a fun take off.


Light weight gives a higher initial pitch angle, especially if you're not using a reduced thrust setting. Given it is a domestic flight the weight is probably relatively low.

Noise abatement procedures don't really "start" until 800-1500 feet in most places. Below that you're just climbing out at V2+10 or thereabouts. What pitch angle you need to hold for that speed depends entirely on weight, thrust, and environmental conditions on the day.

Thanks for the answer. :)
 
LH707330
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Re: DC10 varients

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:38 pm

I know that JAL deactivated the center gear on the 40s on domestic trips to save gear cycles, then activated them for longhaul flights, and swapped frames from short/long haul to balance hours/cycles across the fleet. Not sure if they completely removed the center gear during the domestic time or just deactivated it, anybody know for sure?
 
bradyj23
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Re: DC10 varients

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:27 pm

There has been quite a bit of discussion about using or not using the center gear in normal ops. This may be a very stupid question, but is there more than 1 gear lever? Does the center gear have a different switch? I honestly don’t know(would be surprised if there was). Thanks for the knowledge.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: DC10 varients

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:12 am

bradyj23 wrote:
There has been quite a bit of discussion about using or not using the center gear in normal ops. This may be a very stupid question, but is there more than 1 gear lever? Does the center gear have a different switch? I honestly don’t know(would be surprised if there was). Thanks for the knowledge.


I found this picture using the Google machine.

https://www.airteamimages.com/mcdonnell ... large.html

If you zoom in above the gear handle you'll see a switch. It is labeled CTR GEAR with a NORM and UP position. It safety wired in the NORM position.

If this switch works the same as a guarded, push button switch on the MD11, also labeled CTR GEAR, when in the normal position, the center gear will operate with the rest of the gear. When moved to the UP position, breaking the safety wire, the center gear will remain UP.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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Max Q
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Re: DC10 varients

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:07 am

That’s the first DC10 cockpit I’ve seen with a tiller on the right
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fr8mech
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Re: DC10 varients

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:55 am

fr8mech wrote:
It safety wired in the NORM position.



Oops, just noticed, it's a safety clip, not wire.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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CosmicCruiser
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Re: DC10 varients

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:44 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Ok, so I’m not a DC10 expert, but I seriously doubt that extending the center gear was optional. On the MD11, the center gear can be MEL’d (with a significant weight penalty). In the 20’ish years we’ve been flying the aircraft, I suspect you can count the times we’ve applied this MEL on one hand.

If the gear is installed, and operative, it is used. This is not a dump truck where it’s use is determined by weight.

But, like I said, not a DC10 guy, and I may be wrong. Any DC10 drivers out there care to comment?


fr8mech I was going to say that too. during my yrs on the DC-10 I never saw an "optional" use of the center gear. In fact I can say I never saw it deferred. Same for my yrs on the -11.
 
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747classic
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Re: DC10 varients

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:42 pm

Another way of landing without a (MD11) center gear.

Image

See : https://www.airliners.net/photo/Varig/M ... /1065342/L
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Max Q
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Re: DC10 varients

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:08 am

747classic wrote:
Another way of landing without a (MD11) center gear.

Image

See : https://www.airliners.net/photo/Varig/M ... /1065342/L



Any further details on this ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
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747classic
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Re: DC10 varients

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:12 am

Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Max Q
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Re: DC10 varients

Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:19 am

747classic wrote:



Thanks


Interesting failure
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