IPFreely
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France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:27 pm

Mostly will shut down rail operations. But 20% of flights for tomorrow (5 Dec) pre-emptively cancelled and with airport ground crew and ATC participating more air travel delays and cancellations are likely. Also unlike most previous strikes, this one is “unlimited” which means no scheduled end. Plan accordingly if you’re traveling to, from, or thru France!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theloc ... trikes/amp
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:41 pm

Tomorrow will be a nightmare in and around Paris, only the 2 automatic metro lines will be running (showing what needs to be done to the other lines...), few trains, lots of cars everywhere. Air crew will also have trouble getting to the airports if things haven't been anticipated.

It will certainly be similar Friday, maybe the week-end too, then we'll see.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Thibault973
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:46 pm

All of AF LH flights are scheduled to operate as normal when they plan to operate 85% of their European flights and 70% of their domestic ones.

I for one was supposed to get on an AF flight tomorrow and I gladly rescheduled my flight pushing it until Monday as I 100% support the strike. Latest polls show 70% of people supporting the strike and 24% being opposed. Is it a pain in the ass ? Sure ! But this is why we have one of the best social system out there so it’s definitely worth it ;)
 
kaitak
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:07 pm

It's just recurrent training. Like everything in aviation, things have to be practiced over and over. You wouldn't want the French to forget how to strike?
 
airevents
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:18 pm

Bravo, France! I wish we had a little more of your stamina here in Germany!
 
bennett123
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm

What are they striking for this time?.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:44 pm

bennett123 wrote:
What are they striking for this time?.


Same as everywhere. Gvnt is trying to reduce pension wage.
 
santi319
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:04 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
What are they striking for this time?.


Same as everywhere. Gvnt is trying to reduce pension wage.

Good for them!

When will the Governments realize THEY represent THE PEOPLE.
 
m007j
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:20 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
What are they striking for this time?.


Same as everywhere. Gvnt is trying to reduce pension wage.


I hope this doesn't derail the topic too far, but could someone explain why the government seems to keep going after pensions? Is it austerity, lack of funding for the pension funds, or just politics? It seems like this issue pops up repeatedly, especially when it comes to transportation sector employees
 
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ojjunior
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:22 pm

A strike in France? In plain December?
That's new to me.

Said my 1 day old nephew.
 
kalvado
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:31 pm

m007j wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
What are they striking for this time?.


Same as everywhere. Gvnt is trying to reduce pension wage.


I hope this doesn't derail the topic too far, but could someone explain why the government seems to keep going after pensions? Is it austerity, lack of funding for the pension funds, or just politics? It seems like this issue pops up repeatedly, especially when it comes to transportation sector employees

First link from google:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKBN1Y31GO
At 14% of economic output, French spending on public pensions is among the highest in the world. An independent pension committee forecast the system would run a deficit of more than 17 billion euros, 0.7% of GDP, by 2025 if nothing is done.

Separate factor is that life expectancy (mostly) keeps growing, meaning people collect their pension for longer.
Given money do not grow on trees, funds have to come from somewhere - either from contribution of current workforce (meaning either their earnings or/and company earnings have to be reduced), or from savings of those who retired (and that system had to start many years ago to be effective).
Transportation, especially long haul, has a limitation of competing between labor at two ends of the route, making things more vulnerable. Maybe not a big deal for CDG-IAD flight, but CDG-DEL may be yield limited.

Personal opinion: Europe had some interesting response to year without summer, which was almost 200 years ago. I can see some similarities...
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:38 pm

Will the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre be shut down as well.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:56 pm

Rail workers especially have a golden pension, they can retire age 52 with a very generous pension, something like 80% of their last salary, pretty much unheard of anywhere. At some point in the past it was "OK" as the workforce was large and the retirees few, but now it's the opposite, the workforce is shrinking and retirees numerous, so their special pension scheme is subsidized by everyone else, to the tune of billions, with no end in sight. That's under threat from the proposed pension reform, which is purported to put everybody on the same boat.

The reform hasn't been presented yet, so this is a preemptive strike.

Various unhappy groups will also join the strike, for various reasons. This includes ATC. By and large strikers will be public employees, we shall see how many join from the private sector. I know that in my CAC40 multinational company, nothing is happening.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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ro1960
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:57 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
But this is why we have one of the best social system out there


Actually France ranks #20 in 2017 in terms of % of a working wage (74%) when you retire according to the OECD annual report, way behind Croatia (129%), Turkey (102%) and the Netherlands (101%).
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:05 pm

m007j wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
What are they striking for this time?.


Same as everywhere. Gvnt is trying to reduce pension wage.


I hope this doesn't derail the topic too far, but could someone explain why the government seems to keep going after pensions? Is it austerity, lack of funding for the pension funds, or just politics? It seems like this issue pops up repeatedly, especially when it comes to transportation sector employees


There are no significant pension funds in France, what is taken out of my paycheck goes pretty much directly into the pocket of a pensioner.

More pensioners, less working people => problem.

The left's solution : taxing the rich more to pay for the difference.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:24 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
But this is why we have one of the best social system out there


Actually France ranks #20 in 2017 in terms of % of a working wage (74%) when you retire according to the OECD annual report, way behind Croatia (129%), Turkey (102%) and the Netherlands (101%).


What does "a working wage" mean ? For Croatia and Turkey, these countries have developed a lot recently, so I would assume the pensions have nothing to do with the wages the pensioners earned, or they would get very little.

In France in 2015 the "standard of living" of a median pensioner was 1770 euros a month, or 98% of the standard of living of a median active adult (1810 euros).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
IPFreely
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:20 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Will the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre be shut down as well.


No but tourists being asked to stay away from the Tower. And the Louvre may not open on time and some rooms may be closed:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/touri ... 68433.html

Also appears some fear the "yellow vest" protests will return.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:11 pm

Enough employees of the Eiffel tower are striking so that it is closed after all.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bennett123
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:41 pm

Is there enough in the pot for people to retire at that age on (near) full pay.

Do those figures include Occupational Pensions or are they State Pensions only?.
 
IWMBH
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:59 pm

Nice for AF/KL, French people really know how to make it difficult for their own companies.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:04 pm

There is nothing in the pot, money is taken out of paychecks on the one hand, and deposited in pensioners' accounts on the other hand. With 1,7 pensioner for each worker, it's impossible to get "full pay", you'd need to take almost everything from workers !

The goal of the new system is to simplify the various schemes that exist, it wouldn't take more money, nor give more, it's supposed to be roughly equal to the current system. It would lead to a 28% tax on salaries to pay for pensions. This is basically already what is taken, but in a more complicated, indecipherable way.

One big hurdle is that in 2017 during the presidential campaign, the current system was supposed to be sustainable, but now it has been estimated that it will be in the red as soon as a couple years from now. As a consequence, there is talk, on top of the systemic change, to also push back the retirement age. The only union that was for the systemic reform, is dead set against that latest change, so now all unions are against the government.

There are no occupational pensions in France that I'm aware of (a few jobs have their own system, like lawyers).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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MrBren
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:22 pm

Is it an aviation forum or a forum dedicated to pensions?
 
kalvado
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:36 pm

MrBren wrote:
Is it an aviation forum or a forum dedicated to pensions?

Unfortunately, pension issues affecting airline and airport employers end up directy affecting air travel. It is difficult to discull labor action without understanding what causes it - and for many people understanding causes is important as it affects attitude towards strikers, and eventually travel plans.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:01 pm

Aesma wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
But this is why we have one of the best social system out there


Actually France ranks #20 in 2017 in terms of % of a working wage (74%) when you retire according to the OECD annual report, way behind Croatia (129%), Turkey (102%) and the Netherlands (101%).


What does "a working wage" mean ? For Croatia and Turkey, these countries have developed a lot recently, so I would assume the pensions have nothing to do with the wages the pensioners earned, or they would get very little.

In France in 2015 the "standard of living" of a median pensioner was 1770 euros a month, or 98% of the standard of living of a median active adult (1810 euros).


The wage you earned before retiring. Say you made €2000, you'd get a €1480 pension in France, €2020 in the Netherlands, €2040 in Turkey, €2580 in Croatia.That's my understanding.
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:18 pm

The "last salary". Makes sense then for Croatia and Turkey at least, as pensions are probably rising rapidly, so after a few years your pension would be higher than you last salary.

For the Netherlands I don't know, except maybe that in that country voluntary part-time work is very common, so if you are working part-time the last few years before retirement, that would skew the numbers.

I think this stat is more telling : https://data.oecd.org/socialexp/pension-spending.htm

Only Greece and Italy above France, mainly because their GNP has gone down in the last decade, not up.
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lazyme
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:35 pm

BBC called this an pre-empty strike, since the government have not said how the will change retirements plans.
In England Football is the national sport, in France it is to strike.
 
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ro1960
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:49 pm

At around 16h00:

Turn out is 285k people in the streets in about 40 cities.

AF:
Expect to operate:
- all long-haul flights
- Over 90% of medium-haul flights
- Almost 70% of domestic flights
Disruptions possible Dec. 6 and 7 mainly due to traffic controller strike.
https://www.airfrance.fr/FR/en/common/page_flottante/hp/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm

easyJet doesn't give any figures. They just say to check flight status.
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Drucocu
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:18 am

Seen on my airline's intranet that the strike is expected to last until 8/12 0500Z
 
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william
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:29 am

So is Airbus over at Toulouse effected by this?

Whew! Guess I was fortunate to thoroughly enjoy my time in France this summer with no strikes or Yellow Vests.
 
IPFreely
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:51 am

william wrote:
So is Airbus over at Toulouse effected by this?


Probably not directly but this article says office employees were given the option of working from home. If the strike continues as today, production will likely slow or maybe stop as not only will some workers have trouble getting to work, delivery of parts and raw material will probably slow or stop.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:52 am

Do note that unions (in particular the CGT) are pushing for everyone going on strike, not just public employees. For example here are some SAFRAN employees demonstrating :

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
blueflyer
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:31 pm

Apparently so many employees elected to work from home or take the day off streets and public transport resembled more a weekend than a weekday yesterday.

Drucocu wrote:
Seen on my airline's intranet that the strike is expected to last until 8/12 0500Z

That's a guess from your airline or the vendor they use for that kind of information. Unions have not set an end date for the strike.
All Hail King Donald
 
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Aesma
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Re: France on strike again (5 Dec)

Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:13 pm

French media are really bad at this I feel, it's all focused on the number of people in the streets, the disruptions to transportation, and the politics, but no concrete list of who was on strike for what and how long, so I have no idea if there will be continued disruption to aviation.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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