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747classic
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 am

L/N 1213, the last KC-46A of Lot #4 , seen ouside the FAL, the P&W engines appear to be installed outside.

See Matt Cawby' May 19th Paine Field blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/05/paine- ... ay-19.html
Detailed picture : http://www.paineairport.com/kpae18344n.htm

Aircraft data : L/N 1213 C/N xxxxx B767-2C 18-46058 USAF KC-46A (VH058) Lot 4, #18/18, tail 86058
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Ozair
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 1:21 am

Looks like the GAO will publish more frequent updates on the KC-46 as requested by three US senators, one of which is on the Senate Committee on Armed Services.

Lawmakers order an investigation of KC-46 technical flaws

A trio of senators are calling for an investigation into technical deficiencies that have delayed the operational employment of the KC-46 tanker made by Boeing.

New Hampshire Democrats Maggie Hassan and Jeanne Shaheen, as well as Sen. James Lankford, R-Okla., directed the Government Accountability office on Friday to provide “periodic assessments” on the progress Boeing is making to fix problems impacting the KC-46’s boom and Remote Vision System.

The lawmakers — who represent Pease Air National Guard Base, N.H., and Tinker Air Force Base, Okla., where the KC-46 is based — wrote that they were concerned that Boeing is moving too slowly on correcting ongoing issues.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... cal-flaws/

I'm not sure the additional scrutiny will do much other than generate some additional click bait articles as the USAF seems happy with the direction the RVS is now going.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 2:15 pm

So for now, the USAF is stuck with 30 aircraft it cannot use.

“While the Air Force has already accepted over 30 aircraft, U.S. Transportation Command has decided not to use the aircraft in operations until the critical deficiencies are fixed, which is not expected to occur until 2023. Instead, it plans to use legacy KC-10 and KC-135 aircraft, some of which are over 60 years old,” they stated in a letter to Gene Dodaro, head of the GAO and comptroller general of the United States.


Perhaps they should pauze deliveries?
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Ozair
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 9:16 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
So for now, the USAF is stuck with 30 aircraft it cannot use.

“While the Air Force has already accepted over 30 aircraft, U.S. Transportation Command has decided not to use the aircraft in operations until the critical deficiencies are fixed, which is not expected to occur until 2023. Instead, it plans to use legacy KC-10 and KC-135 aircraft, some of which are over 60 years old,” they stated in a letter to Gene Dodaro, head of the GAO and comptroller general of the United States.


Perhaps they should pauze deliveries?

The aircraft are being used, just not on operations so no overseas deployments, but the KC-46 is refuelling some types of aircraft over CONUS probably every day.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 2:47 am

Ozair wrote:
The aircraft are being used, just not on operations so no overseas deployments, but the KC-46 is refuelling some types of aircraft over CONUS probably every day.


Bingo.

Cargo and medevac flights are open, just not coronets/dual roles. Basically, on flights where the KC-46 would require a legacy tanker to accompany it, they'll simplify the mission and just use the legacy tankers.

Sucks for those dudes.
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Grizzly410
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 4:00 pm

Ozair wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
So for now, the USAF is stuck with 30 aircraft it cannot use.

“While the Air Force has already accepted over 30 aircraft, U.S. Transportation Command has decided not to use the aircraft in operations until the critical deficiencies are fixed, which is not expected to occur until 2023. Instead, it plans to use legacy KC-10 and KC-135 aircraft, some of which are over 60 years old,” they stated in a letter to Gene Dodaro, head of the GAO and comptroller general of the United States.


Perhaps they should pauze deliveries?

The aircraft are being used, just not on operations so no overseas deployments, but the KC-46 is refuelling some types of aircraft over CONUS probably every day.


Just to understand, do you mean "not to use in operations" doesn't prohibit training over US soil ?
I know it was debatted months ago but now I can't find the discussion.

The pilot can stay current doing cargo missions but isn't it a bit pointless to train boom operators for missions they won't be able to perform during the next 3 years at least? On top with a system that may be quite different.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 5:38 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Just to understand, do you mean "not to use in operations" doesn't prohibit training over US soil ?
I know it was debatted months ago but now I can't find the discussion.

The pilot can stay current doing cargo missions but isn't it a bit pointless to train boom operators for missions they won't be able to perform during the next 3 years at least? On top with a system that may be quite different.


Page 3.

Without delving into the finer points of ADCON vs. TACON vs. OPCON, U.S. Transportation Command is essentially saying the aircraft won't be supporting their ongoing refueling requirements (projected deployments and most fighter drags).

No, it's not. Although RVS 2.0 will be a different visual and screen controls, the system interface (the UFCP) and boom system operations will be the same. Further, pilots have refueling currency requirements, too. Besides the obvious receiver AR events, there are also currencies for tanker refueling and autopilot-off tanker refueling and the only way to perform those is to be a tanker platform. Refueling another KC-46 knocks out two birds with one stone, especially when they do lead-swaps. Besides, if the flag goes up with a near-peer nation, the KC-46 will be used for refueling and the boom operators and pilots will need to perform their primary mission. You can't do that by flying around as glorified trash haulers for 3 years.
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Grizzly410
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 6:31 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Just to understand, do you mean "not to use in operations" doesn't prohibit training over US soil ?
I know it was debatted months ago but now I can't find the discussion.

The pilot can stay current doing cargo missions but isn't it a bit pointless to train boom operators for missions they won't be able to perform during the next 3 years at least? On top with a system that may be quite different.


Page 3.

Without delving into the finer points of ADCON vs. TACON vs. OPCON, U.S. Transportation Command is essentially saying the aircraft won't be supporting their ongoing refueling requirements (projected deployments and most fighter drags).

No, it's not. Although RVS 2.0 will be a different visual and screen controls, the system interface (the UFCP) and boom system operations will be the same. Further, pilots have refueling currency requirements, too. Besides the obvious receiver AR events, there are also currencies for tanker refueling and autopilot-off tanker refueling and the only way to perform those is to be a tanker platform. Refueling another KC-46 knocks out two birds with one stone, especially when they do lead-swaps. Besides, if the flag goes up with a near-peer nation, the KC-46 will be used for refueling and the boom operators and pilots will need to perform their primary mission. You can't do that by flying around as glorified trash haulers for 3 years.


Thanks LyleLanley ! :bigthumbsup:
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 9:09 pm

I seem to recall there were a few days where the A-400 was flying but couldn't do refueling and many other of the roles it was to perform. Something like 6 years from entry into service to first refueling. Yes the A-400 has a lot of roles but it could only do a few of like 10 roles in the beginning.

The important thing is that RVS 2.0 works the way it really should, not just meet some paper accomplishments. It has to become the best tanker available or Boeing won't get to build more than the initial RFP quantities.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 11:22 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
So for now, the USAF is stuck with 30 aircraft it cannot use.

Just to understand, do you mean "not to use in operations" doesn't prohibit training over US soil ?
I know it was debatted months ago but now I can't find the discussion.

The pilot can stay current doing cargo missions but isn't it a bit pointless to train boom operators for missions they won't be able to perform during the next 3 years at least? On top with a system that may be quite different.


The USAF is not 'stuck' with aircraft it cannot use. As with the introduction of any new weapons system, there is a steep learning curve the USAF and ANG crews must learn. Fuel management, systems knowledge, little 'tricks of the trade', what the tanker can and cannot do, manage of defense systems, etc. are just a few things the crews and the airplane must learn. All of this info will be passed on to future crews.

The Boom Operators must stay current, too. They still do air refueling with the KC-46A and the Boom Operator is also the Loadmaster for cargo and med-evac missions.

Boom Operators must maintain currency in day contacts, night contacts, manual Boom operations (a degraded system) and emergency procedures.

Pilots must maintain currency in landings day, landings night, day and night take-offs, day and night air refueling (receiver), and emergency procedures.

Just because USTransCom doesn't want to use the KC-46 on its operational missions doesn't mean the USAF can't use it on operational missions.

I point out the A-400M and A-330-MRTT/KC-30 also had growing pains where it couldn't do some of those airplane's missions for years.

The RAAF KC-30A was what, 3 years late and another 2-3 years before it was fully operational? The first few years it could only do WARP drogue refueling (it couldn't do centerline drogue refueling or Boom refueling). For its first few years of RAAF operation it could not use its Boom at all, they kept falling off flight test tankers.

The A-400M was 5 years late in entering French AF service and had limited cargo capability for the next few years, other missions it was intended to do were 5-6 years late. At one point deliveries were so late Germany and Spain threatened to reduce the size of thier order, France threatened to buy some C-130Js and C-130-30Js.

Eventually both Airbus military airplane products got to where they needed to be.

The same will happen with the KC-46A.
Last edited by kc135topboom on Mon May 25, 2020 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 11:25 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Thanks LyleLanley ! :bigthumbsup:


No worries!

I see your point with the A-400, but there are some important differences. Airbus didn't brag about their decades of tactical airlift experience. Nor did Airbus claim to be the 'low-risk' manufacturer with a proven airframe and decades of experience behind it. Airbus also never claimed their aircraft to be 'combat-ready' on day one of operations for their biggest customer like Boeing did. Last but not least, Europe's defense needs are distinctly different from the power projection needs of the USAF.

I hope the KC-46 blossoms, but it has big shoes to fill. It didn't help that its manufacturer boasted about its size 16's before it even left the delivery room.
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kc135topboom
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 11:45 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Thanks LyleLanley ! :bigthumbsup:


No worries!

I see your point with the A-400, but there are some important differences. Airbus didn't brag about their decades of tactical airlift experience. Nor did Airbus claim to be the 'low-risk' manufacturer with a proven airframe and decades of experience behind it. Airbus also never claimed their aircraft to be 'combat-ready' on day one of operations for their biggest customer like Boeing did. Last but not least, Europe's defense needs are distinctly different from the power projection needs of the USAF.

I hope the KC-46 blossoms, but it has big shoes to fill. It didn't help that its manufacturer boasted about its size 16's before it even left the delivery room.


Boeing should have boasted about its tanker experience with the KB-29, KB-50, KC-97, and KC-135. It should have boasted about its experience (through MD) with the KC-10. In fact, until the many times delayed A-330-MRTT came along, no body had any real experience with tankers, not even the Russians. Airbus had to study to death a French C-135FR to understand tankers, then they develop a test prototype based on the A-310-300, the KC-310-MRTT (not the Canadian or German A-310-MRTTs).

But the promises made by the Boeing salesmen for the KC-46 were writing checks that couldn't be cashed by the engineers.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 12:11 am

kc135topboom wrote:
But the promises made by the Boeing salesmen for the KC-46 were writing checks that couldn't be cashed by the engineers.


If Management had kept the Wichita engineers who had all that institutional tanker experience instead of letting them go and deciding to use Boeing Commercial Engineers and doing the work on the 767 FAL (which when it was reconfigured in 2010, was done so with the expectation that the 767-2C airframes would be sent to Wichita for outfitting into KC-46s), they might have been able to cover those checks.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 2:36 am

kc135topboom wrote:
Boeing should have boasted about its tanker experience with the KB-29, KB-50, KC-97, and KC-135. It should have boasted about its experience (through MD) with the KC-10. In fact, until the many times delayed A-330-MRTT came along, no body had any real experience with tankers, not even the Russians. Airbus had to study to death a French C-135FR to understand tankers, then they develop a test prototype based on the A-310-300, the KC-310-MRTT (not the Canadian or German A-310-MRTTs).

But the promises made by the Boeing salesmen for the KC-46 were writing checks that couldn't be cashed by the engineers.


I'm sorry, TB, but I'm not really sure of the point you're making. Boeing has a ton of tanker history, which did very little good apart from PR. Airbus had very little tanker history, did a lot of homework, and has taken a few years to develop their next-generation tanker, but not less than Boeing. The Russians basically bolted on some buddy-refueling pods on their IL-76 to make a tanker, so why mention them?

Boeing entered the next-gen tanker fray ~ 2001 with the KC-767 tanker lease, lost the initial tanker RFP ~ 2009, then won the tanker rematch in 2011. 9 years later, 2020 is here and the KC-46 is years away from frontline service. The A330 was first ordered ~ 2005, entered service in 2011, and 3 years later flew its first combat sortie in 2014.

McD first flew its KC-10 ARB on a KC-135 in the late '70s to prove its concept. We all know how well that turned out, so what's the big deal about Airbus utilizing an A310 to develop its boom?
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:26 pm

If we are to talk about what if . . .

What if Boeing actually got that initial 200 tanker lease deal?

Then they may have been able to better retain that tanker experience and may not gotten into all these troubles with the KC-46, and the war fighters would have gotten the planes they needed without all the delay and drama.

bt
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 2:47 pm

It would have probably ended up a better financial deal for the USAF, which is ironic in that was the reason McCain was able to get it scuttled in the first place.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 4:47 pm

Please keep this thread on topic which is KC-46 Production and Delivery, thanks.
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:46 pm

747classic wrote:
L/N 1210, KC-46A at the Everett Modification Center (EMC), May 18th 2020, see :
See Matt Cawby's May 18th Paine Field blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/05/paine- ... ay-18.html
Detailed picture : http://www.paineairport.com/kpae18339d.htm

Aircraft data : L/N 1210 C/N xxxxx B767-2C 18-46057 USAF KC-46A (VH057) Lot 4, #17/18, tail 86057


?
I think you may have your wires crossed somewhere. Ln 1210 is 19-46057 msn 41879. Ln 1213 and 1216 are the next 2 with FedEx in between.
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:03 am

RobK wrote:
747classic wrote:
L/N 1210, KC-46A at the Everett Modification Center (EMC), May 18th 2020, see :
See Matt Cawby's May 18th Paine Field blog : http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/05/paine- ... ay-18.html
Detailed picture : http://www.paineairport.com/kpae18339d.htm

Aircraft data : L/N 1210 C/N xxxxx B767-2C 18-46057 USAF KC-46A (VH057) Lot 4, #17/18, tail 86057


?
I think you may have your wires crossed somewhere. Ln 1210 is 19-46057 msn 41879. Ln 1213 and 1216 are the next 2 with FedEx in between.


Aren't all Lot 4 aircraft ordered in fisical year 2018 and have the prefix 18 ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:20 am

I have no clue on the finer intracacies of the lot numbers. All I can tell you is that 46056 appears to be the final FY18 as ln 1210 onwards are all FY19 prefix on Boeing documentation. :goodvibes:
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:56 am

RobK wrote:
I have no clue on the finer intracacies of the lot numbers. All I can tell you is that 46056 appears to be the final FY18 as ln 1210 onwards are all FY19 prefix on Boeing documentation. :goodvibes:


You are fully correct, L/N 1210 is the first of Lot 5, ordered in FY 2019. I made a double count error in Lot 4. (too much paste and copy !)
L/N 1205 was the final KC-46A of Lot 4 (18 aircraft).

Only the serial numbers of L/N 1202 (86055), L/N 1205 (86056) and L/N 1207 (14-3611 JASDF) are not known yet in my 767 spreadsheet.
Any clues about these serial numbers and the variable (tabulation) number of L/N 1207 (Vxxxx ?)
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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RobK
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:05 am

VH055 2C BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM 2C 1202 767 200 18-46055 41878
VH056 2C BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM 2C 1205 767 200 18-46056 41881
VH401 2C BDS JAPAN INTERNATIONAL TANKER PROGRAM BDS JAPAN INTERNATIONAL TANKER PROGRAM 2C 1207 767 200 14-3611 66585
:veryhappy:
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:19 am

RobK wrote:
VH055 2C BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM 2C 1202 767 200 18-46055 41878
VH056 2C BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM BDS USAF TANKER PROGRAM 2C 1205 767 200 18-46056 41881
VH401 2C BDS JAPAN INTERNATIONAL TANKER PROGRAM BDS JAPAN INTERNATIONAL TANKER PROGRAM 2C 1207 767 200 14-3611 66585
:veryhappy:


Thx, seen the allocation of VH401 for the first non USAF KC46A, it seems that Boeing has reserved a variable number block for a total of 400 USAF KC-46A's ! :D
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Ozair
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:11 pm

The DOT&E have determined they will not allow the KC-46 to move out of OT&E until Boeing has fixed the RVS and other deficiencies and testing completed which is not expected until 2024...

US Air Force delays full-rate production decision for KC-46 aircraft

The U.S. Air Force will delay a full-rate production milestone for the KC-46 aerial refueling tanker to the end of fiscal 2024 to correspond with a fix for one of the aircraft’s key systems, the service announced late Monday.

The Pentagon’s independent weapons tester — Director of Operational Test and Evaluation Robert Behler — intends to conclude operational testing of the KC-46 only after prime contractor Boeing fixes the tanker’s critical deficiencies and has finalized its production configuration.

“Accordingly, the Air Force will defer the KC-46 full rate production decision until after the completion of [initial operational test and evaluation], and the receipt of the statutorily-required Beyond Low Rate Initial Production report from [Behler],” the Air Force said in a statement.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06 ... the-kc-46/

I expect that, as with the F-35, the yearly buy will be similar to FRP anyway and this delay won't really mean very much.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:10 pm

Ozair wrote:
The DOT&E have determined they will not allow the KC-46 to move out of OT&E until Boeing has fixed the RVS and other deficiencies and testing completed which is not expected until 2024...

US Air Force delays full-rate production decision for KC-46 aircraft

The U.S. Air Force will delay a full-rate production milestone for the KC-46 aerial refueling tanker to the end of fiscal 2024 to correspond with a fix for one of the aircraft’s key systems, the service announced late Monday.

The Pentagon’s independent weapons tester — Director of Operational Test and Evaluation Robert Behler — intends to conclude operational testing of the KC-46 only after prime contractor Boeing fixes the tanker’s critical deficiencies and has finalized its production configuration.

“Accordingly, the Air Force will defer the KC-46 full rate production decision until after the completion of [initial operational test and evaluation], and the receipt of the statutorily-required Beyond Low Rate Initial Production report from [Behler],” the Air Force said in a statement.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06 ... the-kc-46/

I expect that, as with the F-35, the yearly buy will be similar to FRP anyway and this delay won't really mean very much.


I'm lost. AF delays full rate production but....
Boeing is already producing KC-46s at “full rate,” which for the program is 15 tankers per year.


Is the AF rate is actually the delivery rate ? Meaning or Boeing may have to store frames (and slow down production) as their rate of production is higher than delivery rate, or that AF expects to receive more than 15 frame/year at some point ?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
Ozair
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:42 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Ozair wrote:
The DOT&E have determined they will not allow the KC-46 to move out of OT&E until Boeing has fixed the RVS and other deficiencies and testing completed which is not expected until 2024...

US Air Force delays full-rate production decision for KC-46 aircraft

The U.S. Air Force will delay a full-rate production milestone for the KC-46 aerial refueling tanker to the end of fiscal 2024 to correspond with a fix for one of the aircraft’s key systems, the service announced late Monday.

The Pentagon’s independent weapons tester — Director of Operational Test and Evaluation Robert Behler — intends to conclude operational testing of the KC-46 only after prime contractor Boeing fixes the tanker’s critical deficiencies and has finalized its production configuration.

“Accordingly, the Air Force will defer the KC-46 full rate production decision until after the completion of [initial operational test and evaluation], and the receipt of the statutorily-required Beyond Low Rate Initial Production report from [Behler],” the Air Force said in a statement.

...

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06 ... the-kc-46/

I expect that, as with the F-35, the yearly buy will be similar to FRP anyway and this delay won't really mean very much.


I'm lost. AF delays full rate production but....
Boeing is already producing KC-46s at “full rate,” which for the program is 15 tankers per year.


Is the AF rate is actually the delivery rate ? Meaning or Boeing may have to store frames (and slow down production) as their rate of production is higher than delivery rate, or that AF expects to receive more than 15 frame/year at some point ?

The production rate is 15 a year and the decision for FRP is mostly a political one. What FRP allows is a bulk buy so purchases made across multiple years to reduce costs. It also moves the acquisition program into a separate phase.

The USAF will likely continue to acquire at 15 and if they dropped that rate Congress would likely bump it back up anyway. Delaying FRP probably hurts Boeing in not being able to gain efficiencies from block buys and thereby increase profit.

Edit: just to clarify as well, in some ways this shows how important but also unnecessary the OT&E construct is. They need to identify the issues with the aircraft and remedy deficiencies but with the way the USAF acquires, using concurrency with fixes being implemented post production, the USAF generally saves money. Acquiring more frames early and getting the OEM to pay for post production fixes doesn't do a lot for initial availability but lowers the overall acquisition cost.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:38 pm

Ozair wrote:
Boeing in not being able to gain efficiencies from block buys and thereby increase profit.


Block buy also save the Tax payer money as money saved from block buys reduces the program cost prior to Boeing's profit.

bt
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Ozair
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:53 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Boeing in not being able to gain efficiencies from block buys and thereby increase profit.


Block buy also save the Tax payer money as money saved from block buys reduces the program cost prior to Boeing's profit.

bt

Indeed and that is part of the irony of delaying the FRP decision. It prevents the USAF from using a block buy even though they will be acquiring the same number of airframes anyway. Same issue with the F-35.
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:39 am

KC-46 delivery to Seymour Johnson delayed after debris found in fuel tank

The delivery of a new KC-46 Pegasus tanker aircraft to Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina has been delayed after foreign object debris was found inside the plane by Boeing inspectors.

The delayed aircraft was to have been one of the first two KC-46s delivered to Air Force Reserve Command at Seymour Johnson on June 12. But while the first was successfully delivered, debris was found in the fuel tank of the second during its pre-acceptance inspections.

See : https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... fuel-tank/
One KC-46 was delivered at June 12th, BFI-GSB with callsign BACKY01, see : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAC ... /KBFI/KGSB
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:24 pm

747classic wrote:
KC-46 delivery to Seymour Johnson delayed after debris found in fuel tank

The delivery of a new KC-46 Pegasus tanker aircraft to Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina has been delayed after foreign object debris was found inside the plane by Boeing inspectors.


Unbelievable that this is still happening. :o
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par13del
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:09 am

So is it about time that Boeing brings in the police and call this sabotage?
 
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Nomadd
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:25 am

par13del wrote:
So is it about time that Boeing brings in the police and call this sabotage?

Trouble is, the ones who would have to report the crime are the same ones who sabotaged the project.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:26 am

par13del wrote:
So is it about time that Boeing brings in the police and call this sabotage?


When it was noted that around half of the MAXs built but not delivered had FOD in their tanks I thought this is one or more of:

a) Bad procedures
b) Poor Quality Control
c) Careless Workers
d) Sabotage

I really cannot believe that the KC-46 had another instance, if Boeing has responded appropriately about the only explanation is d). All of (c) should have been run off for now. The program head should roll if it is a) or b)
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:13 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
if Boeing has responded appropriately

...which is the question. It cost Boeing money in penalties on the tanker as it occurred multiple times after first being made public, then it happened on MAX a/c that were grounded, it is interesting that there were little to no FOD reports on the MAX when it was being delivered, but now that it is grounded, inspections reveal the problem. One can put on a tin foil hat and speculate that as they crack down on the tanker program, the "problem" migrates to the MAX where there are many a/c available to "disturb", let's see how much contagion spreads to the South East where they already had problems, the 777X may need additional scrutiny as they have more frames joining the workforce.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:17 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
par13del wrote:
So is it about time that Boeing brings in the police and call this sabotage?


When it was noted that around half of the MAXs built but not delivered....:

I think the accurate quote here is "half the a/c inspected"....at the time of the report they had not inspected ALL of the undelivered a/c, only a subset. Based on the dispersion of the grounded fleet, it will take time to inspect them all.
 
GDB
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:42 pm

The only 'sabotage' seems to be by Boeing's management, not only with this issue.
While enriching themselves of course.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:50 pm

GDB wrote:
The only 'sabotage' seems to be by Boeing's management, not only with this issue.
While enriching themselves of course.


You mean executives.

Enriching themselves is the goal of most executive. The blunder is really a function of execution. Other Boeing programs seems to be doing fine. It'll take some time to right the ship after replacing leadership. And after that it may take a while to find the right leader.

How many generals did Lincoln have to sack before he found Grant?

bt
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GDB
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:48 pm

bikerthai wrote:
GDB wrote:
The only 'sabotage' seems to be by Boeing's management, not only with this issue.
While enriching themselves of course.


You mean executives.

Enriching themselves is the goal of most executive. The blunder is really a function of execution. Other Boeing programs seems to be doing fine. It'll take some time to right the ship after replacing leadership. And after that it may take a while to find the right leader.

How many generals did Lincoln have to sack before he found Grant?

bt


Might be a 'separated by a common language' thing, yes when I say 'management' it might have a different meaning in the US.
Didn't they 'let go' a lot a engineering managers?
At the risk of repetition, 737 MAX, one of the most experienced space contractors beaten by Musk in a very public way despite Boeing having decades of work and contacts at NASA, better now but the farcical early years of the 787 development, the effort and expense of the political lobbying, the only clearly defined result thus far being the gifting of the one of their targets to be eliminated to Airbus.
Wasn't it also the case that they shut Boeing's center of excellence and experience with tankers?

This is not the Boeing many of us remember.
Something has gone seriously awry, there is much more discussion of that in Civil Aviation naturally and with informed commentators within the aviation and business world.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:07 pm

GDB wrote:

This is not the Boeing many of us remember.
Something has gone seriously awry, there is much more discussion of that in Civil Aviation naturally and with informed commentators within the aviation and business world.



Sad to see a once great company that built reliable and respected products flush itself down the toilet like this. The early B-787 problems turned out to be a prelude of things to come.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:17 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
Sad to see a once great company that built reliable and respected products flush itself down the toilet like this. The early B-787 problems turned out to be a prelude of things to come.


Not surprised Boeing has suffered with the same management philosophy that ruined McD and GE as engineering companies.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:45 pm

Stitch wrote:
Not surprised Boeing has suffered with the same management philosophy that ruined McD and GE as engineering companies.


You can add to that, integration philosophy and the new world global economy with sub tiers around the world. But with respect to the offloading of work, it is necessary. They just need to find the right balance.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:56 am

Stitch wrote:
kc135topboom wrote:
Sad to see a once great company that built reliable and respected products flush itself down the toilet like this. The early B-787 problems turned out to be a prelude of things to come.


Not surprised Boeing has suffered with the same management philosophy that ruined McD and GE as engineering companies.

So we really believe that even McD and GE management did / do not have a clue how to address quality control issues?
I get that the overall top level management philosophy of McD and GE may be toxic, but inspection of a/c before it is turned over to the delivery team is not a senior management function, and when it has been public knowledge that the company has an issue and is taking financial penalties, it absolutely boggles the mind that it is still continuing, hence my thought that the action is deliberate.
My additional issue here is why the media has not dug deeper on this issue, were the tools from general inventory or from the team that was working on the a/c, has any grunts been fired, after all, we think a board member left the tools, any e-mails from management saying don't do tool inventory, how about pride in their work that the individual members working on the a/c should have, are there so many workers working in the fuel tanks that it is hard to track workers and their tools?
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:23 am

par13del wrote:
Stitch wrote:
kc135topboom wrote:
Sad to see a once great company that built reliable and respected products flush itself down the toilet like this. The early B-787 problems turned out to be a prelude of things to come.


Not surprised Boeing has suffered with the same management philosophy that ruined McD and GE as engineering companies.

So we really believe that even McD and GE management did / do not have a clue how to address quality control issues?
I get that the overall top level management philosophy of McD and GE may be toxic, but inspection of a/c before it is turned over to the delivery team is not a senior management function, and when it has been public knowledge that the company has an issue and is taking financial penalties, it absolutely boggles the mind that it is still continuing, hence my thought that the action is deliberate.
My additional issue here is why the media has not dug deeper on this issue, were the tools from general inventory or from the team that was working on the a/c, has any grunts been fired, after all, we think a board member left the tools, any e-mails from management saying don't do tool inventory, how about pride in their work that the individual members working on the a/c should have, are there so many workers working in the fuel tanks that it is hard to track workers and their tools?


This is a cultural issue that has pervaded the entire Boeing product line. It’s not simply a passing management fad that middle management can work through, nor is it some minor problem at the line-worker level. This is systemic, from design, to test, through production and sustainment. It’s not one or two bad apples, but a culture that enables mediocrity at the expense of excellence. That’s what chasing the bottom line will do.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:11 pm

So they ensure that they hire workers who have no pride and ensure if some sneak through the vetting process they are placed in areas where their attention to detail is diminished or neutered by rules and procedures for getting the job done? Is it really that simple, they are able to limit such workers / rules / procedures to the tanker line, then export to the MAX while keeping the 777 and 787 line in the north west free and clear?
I guess the point I am trying to resolve is once we get past the executive culture there is still an individual who goes to work in an a/c with tools where an inventory exist, and when the work is complete, simply walks away leaving tools and what, gets a promotion or does not report the loss for fear of disciplinary action?
The media today including social media is all over everything they can get their hands on, but all we continue to hear about this is debris left behind, based on their track record, methinks they should have uncovered much more by now. Since Boeing is already public enemy number 1 who are they protecting by not publishing?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:32 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
This is a cultural issue that has pervaded the entire Boeing product line.


To this I will agree. However it is not one monolithic "cultural" issue within Boeing.

The old legacy Boeing had a large cultural center in Washington State. But there were some difference s with Wichita and Philly. Now, it seems there are disparate centers from the Puget Sound, to St. Louis, to Charleston. With the exception of maybe Charleston each of these centers have their hands in both the Commercial and Military worlds.

Maybe saying the "Boeing" culture has lost its way may be too simplistic. It would be easier to implement reform if there was one unified culture in the first place.

bt
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LyleLanley
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:51 pm

bikerthai wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
This is a cultural issue that has pervaded the entire Boeing product line.


To this I will agree. However it is not one monolithic "cultural" issue within Boeing.

The old legacy Boeing had a large cultural center in Washington State. But there were some difference s with Wichita and Philly. Now, it seems there are disparate centers from the Puget Sound, to St. Louis, to Charleston. With the exception of maybe Charleston each of these centers have their hands in both the Commercial and Military worlds.

Maybe saying the "Boeing" culture has lost its way may be too simplistic. It would be easier to implement reform if there was one unified culture in the first place.

bt


Valid. I was alluding more to a culture of mediocrity rather than the ephemeral ‘Boeing culture’. Reference the 787, KC-767, MAX, and KC-46.
"I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook, and, by gum, it put them on the map!"
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:27 pm

Recently talked with an old friend about the problems. It was noted that the KC-46 Program has reverted to hiring 30 year old MBA "managers" off the street who have no production experience and have major disdain for process procedures and subordinates who have knowledge, seniority and work experience. Boeing went through this before, hiring idiots just because they had an MBA. I recall when I was doing some procedure work two newbies approached me to have all QA functions deleted from the manufacturing processes because "every one knows inspection is not cost effective and it slows down the through-put." It appears they are still trying to do that. Wish more of these MBAs would return to jobs within their intellectual/skill capability like managing Dollar Stores and fast food outlets.
 
LMP737
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:28 pm

GDB wrote:

Wasn't it also the case that they shut Boeing's center of excellence and experience with tankers?


Ah yes, the closure of Boeing BDS operations in Wichita. The original plan was to have the planes flown there in the -2C configuration and finished there. Then the decision was made to close it and have the aircraft finished in Everett. All the decades of engineering and technician know how/talent was scattered to the four winds.

Mind you Boeing came up with all sorts of reasons for this. However, those of us familiar with the company know what it really about. It was about JIm McNerney having it in for IAM 751 and wanting to stick it to them. Pure and simple.

Then several years into the tanker mess Boeing decided it was time to start offering buyouts to employees. Typically companies do this when they have facing financially difficult times or when a major program is years behind schedule like the tanker was/is. Why, I'm guessing they wanted to bump up the stock price as they know Wall Street loves it when you shed more expensive/experienced employees. End result, a year or two later Boeing offers to recently retired employees to come back and help out with the production mess.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:34 am

LMP737 wrote:

Then several years into the tanker mess Boeing decided it was time to start offering buyouts to employees. Typically companies do this when they have facing financially difficult times or when a major program is years behind schedule like the tanker was/is.


I meant to say they don't do it when a major program is years behind schedule like the tanker.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
GDB
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Re: Boeing KC-46 Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:10 am

kanban wrote:
Recently talked with an old friend about the problems. It was noted that the KC-46 Program has reverted to hiring 30 year old MBA "managers" off the street who have no production experience and have major disdain for process procedures and subordinates who have knowledge, seniority and work experience. Boeing went through this before, hiring idiots just because they had an MBA. I recall when I was doing some procedure work two newbies approached me to have all QA functions deleted from the manufacturing processes because "every one knows inspection is not cost effective and it slows down the through-put." It appears they are still trying to do that. Wish more of these MBAs would return to jobs within their intellectual/skill capability like managing Dollar Stores and fast food outlets.


Seems Boeing has gone the way of many in the Anglo-sphere.
All too often, MBA seems to stand for Major Bullshitter Approaching.

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