I went Kroger (Louisville - Holiday Manor) this evening to pick up some food for the weekend, since all our plans went to hell.

I was unprepared for what I saw there. Shelves were bare. Canned and frozen vegetables gone. Bread, milk (real, not almond, soy, etc.), eggs gone.

Frozen foods were picked over.

The only meat left was some "high-end" beef and turkey breast.

Being a student of human nature, I started wandering the store and doing some people watching.

It seemed to me that people were moving around in a crowd. Orderly, polite, almost relaxed. But clearing the shelves. Some folks had a couple of carts. Then there was the occasional bewildered person...pushing around an empty cart. They looked so out of place.

Most disturbing, at least to me, was that I started getting caught up in the mix. I felt I NEEDED whatever everyone else was dumping in their carts. I had to consciously tell myself that I didn't need the damn chicken nuggets. We haven't had chicken nuggets in the house in years. It was the strangest thing.

Interesting article here:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/09/health/t ... index.html

I think I saw, and most certainly felt #3.

Yes, it is shocking the way people are behaving. And the media is to blame. For whatever reason they feel the need to announce whenever a single new case of the virus, out of a world of over seven billion people, is confirmed. People are acting like the world is going to swallow them up if they don't have toilet paper and milk.

I had to go to Costco Business center, to buy 2000 trash liners for business purposes. They were sold out online. It took me forever to find a parking space, finally, I just stood in a lane and waited for someone to walk outside then I stalked them and followed them to their car. once inside there were no carts. They directed me to a mobile cart. The line went all the way back to the end of the store. People were buying
rice, noodles, water, cases of tuna. I got out of there in three hours. ridiculous.

At least now we know that panic and fear are way more contagious than any virus...

First, I agree, it is ridiculous, though while I was at Costco today there wasn't any craziness going on, just way too many items cleared off shelves (though far from empty). Parking wasn't bad, but for a Friday afternoon it was way busier than normal. And inside it was a "normal busy holiday weekend day" but it wasn't holiday weekend coming up. And the lines weren't bad, four or five people deep but every single register was open, all twenty 22 lanes. On a Friday afternoon....

I was only there to pick up five things and what's I got (dog food, milk, kitty litter, toothpaste and some wine). But I did feel #3, the draw to "get other stuff" cuz some case were getting emptier and I didn't want to miss out! Herd mentality sends a strong signal.

I am pretty confident that this will fade fairly quickly since the stores (and that Costco) will be stocked back up again within a day or two. At least in my area. Speaking with a manager at Costco they were surprised but they have stock in their distribution centers and have increased their restock cycle for now to accommodate

I really don't see this lasting too much beyond the weekend, and it will slow or cease when the stores do restock But this weekend will be filled with people scouring stores looking for something the fear they will need. And they rest of us will watch, bemused, and then go later in the week when we need whatever.


Second, it is not the fault of some made up "it's them"! It's their fault!" (*points finger* at anyone but themselves). That's the game some people are playing constantly nowadays to deflect everything and blame and frame some "other party" for anything they want their adherents to believe, And of course sadly those followers do believe and follow along with all their other like minded cattle, JUST LIKE the people now clearing the shelves. "Wut? You say those are the people to blame? OK I blame THEM..." or"Wut, You say there isn't anymore toilet paper and that more people are getting sick? I'd better run and grab what I can, now!" And they follow along what ever line they are fed, by "media" just like what they are complaining about that is constantly feeding some panicky news about how bad "them" are.

Media is absolutely a reflection of the public that tunes in. It responds with information we are expecting or wanting or we turn them off. Some people read that newspaper/website, others watch and follow that TV channel, and still others listen to some particular radio stations or podcasts. But NO, it's the media's fault, not mine... wait, not MY media, it's that other media, over there. I know because my media told me so and showed me how crazy they all are. That's why I follow along, look at all the other smart people like me who follow my media as well. That is why I follow with these people and clear the shelves/parrot some catchphrase. ....

We consume the media we like and the media provides us what we want. If it presents something we don't like, that challenges us then we turn it off. And your media doesn't want that.

Information is everywhere nowadays, it is definitely on overload. Coming to us on our smart devices and phones and cars and earbuds and TV's in every waiting room, restaurant and family room. And it never stops. People need to learn how to analyze multiple sources and include ones that present counter information, then scrub that and understand and filter and discern and finally just let go of trying to listen to everything, all the time. Make up your own mind with thoughtful consideration, and don't go crazy following the crowd that is clearing shelving and parroting the same thing.
/rant

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

First, I agree, it is ridiculous, though while I was at Costco today there wasn't any craziness going on, just way too many items cleared off shelves (though far from empty). Parking wasn't bad, but for a Friday afternoon it was way busier than normal. And inside it was a "normal busy holiday weekend day" but it wasn't holiday weekend coming up. And the lines weren't bad, four or five people deep but every single register was open, all twenty 22 lanes. On a Friday afternoon....

I was only there to pick up five things and what's I got (dog food, milk, kitty litter, toothpaste and some wine). But I did feel #3, the draw to "get other stuff" cuz some case were getting emptier and I didn't want to miss out! Herd mentality sends a strong signal.

I am pretty confident that this will fade fairly quickly since the stores (and that Costco) will be stocked back up again within a day or two. At least in my area. Speaking with a manager at Costco they were surprised but they have stock in their distribution centers and have increased their restock cycle for now to accommodate

I really don't see this lasting too much beyond the weekend, and it will slow or cease when the stores do restock But this weekend will be filled with people scouring stores looking for something the fear they will need. And they rest of us will watch, bemused, and then go later in the week when we need whatever.


Second, it is not the fault of some made up "it's them"! It's their fault!" (*points finger* at anyone but themselves). That's the game some people are playing constantly nowadays to deflect everything and blame and frame some "other party" for anything they want their adherents to believe, And of course sadly those followers do believe and follow along with all their other like minded cattle, JUST LIKE the people now clearing the shelves. "Wut? You say those are the people to blame? OK I blame THEM..." or"Wut, You say there isn't anymore toilet paper and that more people are getting sick? I'd better run and grab what I can, now!" And they follow along what ever line they are fed, by "media" just like what they are complaining about that is constantly feeding some panicky news about how bad "them" are.

Media is absolutely a reflection of the public that tunes in. It responds with information we are expecting or wanting or we turn them off. Some people read that newspaper/website, others watch and follow that TV channel, and still others listen to some particular radio stations or podcasts. But NO, it's the media's fault, not mine... wait, not MY media, it's that other media, over there. I know because my media told me so and showed me how crazy they all are. That's why I follow along, look at all the other smart people like me who follow my media as well. That is why I follow with these people and clear the shelves/parrot some catchphrase. ....

We consume the media we like and the media provides us what we want. If it presents something we don't like, that challenges us then we turn it off. And your media doesn't want that.

Information is everywhere nowadays, it is definitely on overload. Coming to us on our smart devices and phones and cars and earbuds and TV's in every waiting room, restaurant and family room. And it never stops. People need to learn how to analyze multiple sources and include ones that present counter information, then scrub that and understand and filter and discern and finally just let go of trying to listen to everything, all the time. Make up your own mind with thoughtful consideration, and don't go crazy following the crowd that is clearing shelving and parroting the same thing.
/rant

Tugg

So you or I or anyone with critical thinking skills can clearly be discerning about information but this situation is a fairly stark reminder that the masses are staggeringly dumb. Like I was always told by my parents there are a lot of idiots out there, and we know this is generally the case, but at times like this I realize it’s worse even than that.

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me. This is not happening in Korea or Japan, as far as my contacts tell me. It seems a little bit in Australia, can't be sure. It is not happening here in Taiwan. In China? Didn't really happen either in spite the fact they were the most unprepared country because they were the first hit.

This is a result of a society in serious crisis, US society.

This is what happens when firstly you have a completely incompetent local and federal government information management. I have watched the news from all over the world, in several languages. The country with the most NON-SENSICAL and disarrayed information in fact has been the US government, regardless of political party. Your elected leaders have failed you atrociously. When people have no confidence that the government is on top of it, the result is hoarding and worst-case scenario mentality.

This is what also happens when you have a society that has vast swaths cynical of power (though this applies to many places), but beyond that large sectors of the population who have become "A to Z deniers". Drones. There are millions of US citizens that in fact will think this is all a deep state/UN ploy to get at the United States of Trump, and WILL NOT take precautions at all as a matter of defiance or in fact disbelief of the facts.

Finally, this is what also happens when you have a whole country that has been conditioned to AVOID medicine. Either because they can't afford it at all, or because they are afraid of the results and going into financial ruin, or even from a distrust of science sowed by political actors. I have lived in many places last few years, in Asia, South America, Europe, and in the US. Everywhere BUT the USA, people encouraged me to go the hospital at the slightest problem. In Korea, Taiwan, mainland China even, they told me to go even several times a week when sick to check my progress. In Europe, we know they have great basic and mid-level public healthcare, no problem. In South America, despite the tight budgets, again most hospital visits no problem, in Argentina in fact one of the few countries where seeing a doctor for mental issues is not stigmatized and covered. But when I was in the USA, people kept telling me "even with insurance from your employer or school, AVOID hospitals at all costs!". And that I only go to even a small clinic when I had truly serious symptoms, because the medicine would be super expensive. Imagine this mentality, avoiding medicine for fear of bankruptcy, fear of costs, or just rejection of modern medicine, during a pandemic.

So there you have it, a cocktail for disaster I believe. It could get very bad in the US compared to most places unless some last minute national unity and coordination emerges.

Aaron747 wrote:

So you or I or anyone with critical thinking skills can clearly be discerning about information but this situation is a fairly stark reminder that the masses are staggeringly dumb. Like I was always told by my parents there are a lot of idiots out there, and we know this is generally the case, but at times like this I realize it’s worse even than that.

That's not really fair. Something I heard a long time ago, and it stuck with me goes like this:

Individuals tend to be smart, people are stupid.

Quite simply, the herd mentality takes over. It's why peaceful protests can devolve into riots in seconds.

I have a sign hanging in my kitchen that says "Never underestimate the stupidity of boys in a group", and point to it whenever my son heads out the door.

Controlling a pandemic is not a medical exercise, it is an exercise in psychology. The media, the politicians, the thought leaders, the subject matter experts, etc., all have a hand to play in balancing the information that gets out into the population. In the case of a pandemic, you have to jar the population and scare them into limiting their interaction with each other.

On the other hand, the balance, you can't scare them so much that they start panic-hoarding stuff, or worse. A lot of the information has to be positive and agreeable.

Tugger wrote:

Information is everywhere nowadays,

And, that's the problem, and the mis-calculation made when flooding the "airwaves" with all this information. Twenty years ago, we probably wouldn't be at this level of craziness. There's too much "jarring" and not enough "happy" out there right now for the given level and reach of the information.

Derico wrote:

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me. This is not happening in Korea or Japan, as far as my contacts tell me. It seems a little bit in Australia, can't be sure. It is not happening here in Taiwan. In China? Didn't really happen either in spite the fact they were the most unprepared country because they were the first hit.

This is a result of a society in serious crisis, US society.

This is what happens when firstly you have a completely incompetent local and federal government information management. I have watched the news from all over the world, in several languages. The country with the most NON-SENSICAL and disarrayed information in fact has been the US government, regardless of political party. Your elected leaders have failed you atrociously. When people have no confidence that the government is on top of it, the result is hoarding and worst-case scenario mentality.

This is what also happens when you have a society that has vast swaths cynical of power (though this applies to many places), but beyond that large sectors of the population who have become "A to Z deniers". Drones. There are millions of US citizens that in fact will think this is all a deep state/UN ploy to get at the United States of Trump, and WILL NOT take precautions at all as a matter of defiance or in fact disbelief of the facts.

Finally, this is what also happens when you have a whole country that has been conditioned to AVOID medicine. Either because they can't afford it at all, or because they are afraid of the results and going into financial ruin, or even from a distrust of science sowed by political actors. I have lived in many places last few years, in Asia, South America, Europe, and in the US. Everywhere BUT the USA, people encouraged me to go the hospital at the slightest problem. In Korea, Taiwan, mainland China even, they told me to go even several times a week when sick to check my progress. In Europe, we know they have great basic and mid-level public healthcare, no problem. In South America, despite the tight budgets, again most hospital visits no problem, in Argentina in fact one of the few countries where seeing a doctor for mental issues is not stigmatized and covered. But when I was in the USA, people kept telling me "even with insurance from your employer or school, AVOID hospitals at all costs!". And that I only go to even a small clinic when I had truly serious symptoms, because the medicine would be super expensive. Imagine this mentality, avoiding medicine for fear of bankruptcy, fear of costs, or just rejection of modern medicine, during a pandemic.

So there you have it, a cocktail for disaster I believe. It could get very bad in the US compared to most places unless some last minute national unity and coordination emerges.

This is not true and comes off as you just wanting to insult the US. The US has had its share of disasters and we always come through just fine.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Derico wrote:

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me. This is not happening in Korea or Japan, as far as my contacts tell me. It seems a little bit in Australia, can't be sure. It is not happening here in Taiwan. In China? Didn't really happen either in spite the fact they were the most unprepared country because they were the first hit.

This is a result of a society in serious crisis, US society.

This is what happens when firstly you have a completely incompetent local and federal government information management. I have watched the news from all over the world, in several languages. The country with the most NON-SENSICAL and disarrayed information in fact has been the US government, regardless of political party. Your elected leaders have failed you atrociously. When people have no confidence that the government is on top of it, the result is hoarding and worst-case scenario mentality.

This is what also happens when you have a society that has vast swaths cynical of power (though this applies to many places), but beyond that large sectors of the population who have become "A to Z deniers". Drones. There are millions of US citizens that in fact will think this is all a deep state/UN ploy to get at the United States of Trump, and WILL NOT take precautions at all as a matter of defiance or in fact disbelief of the facts.

Finally, this is what also happens when you have a whole country that has been conditioned to AVOID medicine. Either because they can't afford it at all, or because they are afraid of the results and going into financial ruin, or even from a distrust of science sowed by political actors. I have lived in many places last few years, in Asia, South America, Europe, and in the US. Everywhere BUT the USA, people encouraged me to go the hospital at the slightest problem. In Korea, Taiwan, mainland China even, they told me to go even several times a week when sick to check my progress. In Europe, we know they have great basic and mid-level public healthcare, no problem. In South America, despite the tight budgets, again most hospital visits no problem, in Argentina in fact one of the few countries where seeing a doctor for mental issues is not stigmatized and covered. But when I was in the USA, people kept telling me "even with insurance from your employer or school, AVOID hospitals at all costs!". And that I only go to even a small clinic when I had truly serious symptoms, because the medicine would be super expensive. Imagine this mentality, avoiding medicine for fear of bankruptcy, fear of costs, or just rejection of modern medicine, during a pandemic.

So there you have it, a cocktail for disaster I believe. It could get very bad in the US compared to most places unless some last minute national unity and coordination emerges.

This is not true and comes off as you just wanting to insult the US. The US has had its share of disasters and we always come through just fine.

I did not read any blame for the virus on the US - where did he say that? The criticisms seem to be about the private insurance system and lack of coordinated response from the White House on down.

Derico wrote:

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me. This is not happening in Korea or Japan, as far as my contacts tell me. It seems a little bit in Australia, can't be sure. It is not happening here in Taiwan. In China? Didn't really happen either in spite the fact they were the most unprepared country because they were the first hit.

This is a result of a society in serious crisis, US society.

This is what happens when firstly you have a completely incompetent local and federal government information management. I have watched the news from all over the world, in several languages. The country with the most NON-SENSICAL and disarrayed information in fact has been the US government, regardless of political party. Your elected leaders have failed you atrociously. When people have no confidence that the government is on top of it, the result is hoarding and worst-case scenario mentality.

This is what also happens when you have a society that has vast swaths cynical of power (though this applies to many places), but beyond that large sectors of the population who have become "A to Z deniers". Drones. There are millions of US citizens that in fact will think this is all a deep state/UN ploy to get at the United States of Trump, and WILL NOT take precautions at all as a matter of defiance or in fact disbelief of the facts.

Finally, this is what also happens when you have a whole country that has been conditioned to AVOID medicine. Either because they can't afford it at all, or because they are afraid of the results and going into financial ruin, or even from a distrust of science sowed by political actors. I have lived in many places last few years, in Asia, South America, Europe, and in the US. Everywhere BUT the USA, people encouraged me to go the hospital at the slightest problem. In Korea, Taiwan, mainland China even, they told me to go even several times a week when sick to check my progress. In Europe, we know they have great basic and mid-level public healthcare, no problem. In South America, despite the tight budgets, again most hospital visits no problem, in Argentina in fact one of the few countries where seeing a doctor for mental issues is not stigmatized and covered. But when I was in the USA, people kept telling me "even with insurance from your employer or school, AVOID hospitals at all costs!". And that I only go to even a small clinic when I had truly serious symptoms, because the medicine would be super expensive. Imagine this mentality, avoiding medicine for fear of bankruptcy, fear of costs, or just rejection of modern medicine, during a pandemic.

So there you have it, a cocktail for disaster I believe. It could get very bad in the US compared to most places unless some last minute national unity and coordination emerges.

I think you are conflating things here a bit and are lacking nuance in your analysis. Singapore, HK, Taiwan etc have been successful in their approach because culturally, people are conditioned to follow instructions from institutions and there is a robust public health infrastructure to deliver on the government’s end of the bargain.

The US is highly complex by comparison and coordinated rapid response requires not only clear procedures but strong leadership to manage and execute the required processes. The White House is certainly struggling in this area, but individual states have taken proactive measures without waiting for DC and will likely have good results from doing so. Corporate America even moreso have risen to the challenge with rapid rollout of policies consistent with social distancing needs.

The US is also very large and American culture is not a monoculture - all 50 states have different educational systems and curricula - in some areas you have a large number of well educated citizens and in others not - there will CERTAINLY be dramatic differences in required steps to secure public cooperation and results similar to differences seen between nations.

Aaron747 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Derico wrote:

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me. This is not happening in Korea or Japan, as far as my contacts tell me. It seems a little bit in Australia, can't be sure. It is not happening here in Taiwan. In China? Didn't really happen either in spite the fact they were the most unprepared country because they were the first hit.

This is a result of a society in serious crisis, US society.

This is what happens when firstly you have a completely incompetent local and federal government information management. I have watched the news from all over the world, in several languages. The country with the most NON-SENSICAL and disarrayed information in fact has been the US government, regardless of political party. Your elected leaders have failed you atrociously. When people have no confidence that the government is on top of it, the result is hoarding and worst-case scenario mentality.

This is what also happens when you have a society that has vast swaths cynical of power (though this applies to many places), but beyond that large sectors of the population who have become "A to Z deniers". Drones. There are millions of US citizens that in fact will think this is all a deep state/UN ploy to get at the United States of Trump, and WILL NOT take precautions at all as a matter of defiance or in fact disbelief of the facts.

Finally, this is what also happens when you have a whole country that has been conditioned to AVOID medicine. Either because they can't afford it at all, or because they are afraid of the results and going into financial ruin, or even from a distrust of science sowed by political actors. I have lived in many places last few years, in Asia, South America, Europe, and in the US. Everywhere BUT the USA, people encouraged me to go the hospital at the slightest problem. In Korea, Taiwan, mainland China even, they told me to go even several times a week when sick to check my progress. In Europe, we know they have great basic and mid-level public healthcare, no problem. In South America, despite the tight budgets, again most hospital visits no problem, in Argentina in fact one of the few countries where seeing a doctor for mental issues is not stigmatized and covered. But when I was in the USA, people kept telling me "even with insurance from your employer or school, AVOID hospitals at all costs!". And that I only go to even a small clinic when I had truly serious symptoms, because the medicine would be super expensive. Imagine this mentality, avoiding medicine for fear of bankruptcy, fear of costs, or just rejection of modern medicine, during a pandemic.

So there you have it, a cocktail for disaster I believe. It could get very bad in the US compared to most places unless some last minute national unity and coordination emerges.

This is not true and comes off as you just wanting to insult the US. The US has had its share of disasters and we always come through just fine.

I did not read any blame for the virus on the US - where did he say that? The criticisms seem to be about the private insurance system and lack of coordinated response from the White House on down.

How would socialized medicine be the savior in this incident? Whether private or public, resources are never unlimited. We are not going to build excess hospitals that sit empty waiting for the rare pandemic to occur, nor are we going to have excess medical staff on the payroll. It will always be rationed. And failing to pull millions of medical tests out of thin air in 24 hours is not an appropriate criticism. No one can do that. Had China been honest and upfront with the rest of the world we would have been much better prepared. How is the US handling this any worse than Italy and the rest of the affected countries? And they are all now following Trump's lead in implementing travel bans. The governor of California only had good things to say about the Trump administration's leadership and their willingness to help. The president has not been petty in this situation and has urged both parties to work together and brought in people from the private sector who he knew would have a good trip on this situation.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

This is not true and comes off as you just wanting to insult the US. The US has had its share of disasters and we always come through just fine.

I did not read any blame for the virus on the US - where did he say that? The criticisms seem to be about the private insurance system and lack of coordinated response from the White House on down.

How would socialized medicine be the savior in this incident? Whether private or public, resources are never unlimited. We are not going to build excess hospitals that sit empty waiting for the rare pandemic to occur, nor are we going to have excess medical staff on the payroll. It will always be rationed. And failing to pull millions of medical tests out of thin air in 24 hours is not an appropriate criticism. No one can do that. Had China been honest and upfront with the rest of the world we would have been much better prepared. How is the US handling this any worse than Italy and the rest of the affected countries? And they are all now following Trump's lead in implementing travel bans. The governor of California only had good things to say about the Trump administration's leadership and their willingness to help. The president has not been petty in this situation and has urged both parties to work together and brought in people from the private sector who he knew would have a good trip on this situation.

Not going to rehash the leadership failures by the WH the last 2.5 months in yet another thread - but you can see my comments about the level of leadership required in the reply to Derico in the post above yours.

Aaron747 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

I did not read any blame for the virus on the US - where did he say that? The criticisms seem to be about the private insurance system and lack of coordinated response from the White House on down.

How would socialized medicine be the savior in this incident? Whether private or public, resources are never unlimited. We are not going to build excess hospitals that sit empty waiting for the rare pandemic to occur, nor are we going to have excess medical staff on the payroll. It will always be rationed. And failing to pull millions of medical tests out of thin air in 24 hours is not an appropriate criticism. No one can do that. Had China been honest and upfront with the rest of the world we would have been much better prepared. How is the US handling this any worse than Italy and the rest of the affected countries? And they are all now following Trump's lead in implementing travel bans. The governor of California only had good things to say about the Trump administration's leadership and their willingness to help. The president has not been petty in this situation and has urged both parties to work together and brought in people from the private sector who he knew would have a good trip on this situation.

Not going to rehash the leadership failures by the WH the last 2.5 months in yet another thread - but you can see my comments about the level of leadership required in the reply to Derico in the post above yours.

Fair enough. I'll read your previous posts on the matter. I'll be interested to see if you appropriated any blame for this mess on any other government.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

How would socialized medicine be the savior in this incident? Whether private or public, resources are never unlimited. We are not going to build excess hospitals that sit empty waiting for the rare pandemic to occur, nor are we going to have excess medical staff on the payroll. It will always be rationed. And failing to pull millions of medical tests out of thin air in 24 hours is not an appropriate criticism. No one can do that. Had China been honest and upfront with the rest of the world we would have been much better prepared. How is the US handling this any worse than Italy and the rest of the affected countries? And they are all now following Trump's lead in implementing travel bans. The governor of California only had good things to say about the Trump administration's leadership and their willingness to help. The president has not been petty in this situation and has urged both parties to work together and brought in people from the private sector who he knew would have a good trip on this situation.

Not going to rehash the leadership failures by the WH the last 2.5 months in yet another thread - but you can see my comments about the level of leadership required in the reply to Derico in the post above yours.

Fair enough. I'll read your previous posts on the matter. I'll be interested to see if you appropriated any blame for this mess on any other government.

China, Japan, and Italy to date.

Yeah, I expected this ever since it happened in Hong Kong, like a month ago. I bought some extra then to last through when the rush hit the US. It started in Hong Kong because they worried about shortages because of China switching production over to mask production. Then as a chain of viral incidents occurred starting with the Hong Kong TP robbery, then videos of TP fights in other countries, people now just see others are scrambling for pandemic prep and think it is the most essential item, no other reason than the fact it is desired is driving the buying.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

This is not true and comes off as you just wanting to insult the US. The US has had its share of disasters and we always come through just fine.

I did not read any blame for the virus on the US - where did he say that? The criticisms seem to be about the private insurance system and lack of coordinated response from the White House on down.

How would socialized medicine be the savior in this incident?

People actually go to see doctors, you get a clear picture who got infected where and such.
Most places that have such a system also have paid sick leave and people stay at home sooner, because they can afford it.
Information is key, and testing is how you get information. Universal healthcare systems are good at that.

Whether private or public, resources are never unlimited.

But you can unleash a lot of extra resources with a few weeks head start.

We are not going to build excess hospitals that sit empty waiting for the rare pandemic to occur,

And that right there is why you only have 3 times as many ICU beds with 4 times the population than us, and very little excess capacity.

nor are we going to have excess medical staff on the payroll.

For a short time you can surge manpower with overtime, cancelling leave, bringing back retierees, include military medical staff .... there is a lot of headroom, if you are prepared.

it will always be rationed.

The whole idea of aggressive isolation to slow down the spread is to prevent rationing from becoming necessary. Italy failed and hospitals now do triage. If your admin doesn't wake up quickly, you'll be there in two weeks time, if not sooner.

And failing to pull millions of medical tests out of thin air in 24 hours is not an appropriate criticism. No one can do that.

Yes, you can not pull them out of thin air. The US admin could however have ordered those in January, when everybody else did, and have millions of tests ready when the bow wave comes. But no.... MAGA "buy american even if it kills us" admin didn't want to buy the ready, cheap, effective, WHO gold standard, but foreign, test and had the CDC have a go at it... and they bungled it.

Had China been honest and upfront with the rest of the world we would have been much better prepared.

Oh, you mean if you admin had a few weeks more warning than the about 3 month they had until now they would have magically decided to do something before it was everywhere in the US and people started dying. South Korea could use that excuse, Japan could.... you can't, you had plenty of warning.

How is the US handling this any worse than Italy and the rest of the affected countries?

Because you are on the exact same trajectory as Italy, can essentially see 10-14 days into the future ... and do less than Italy did 10-14 days ago?

And they are all now following Trump's lead in implementing travel bans.

They are not following, they do them at the appropriate time. Trump threw the door shut after the horse was out, you what to slap the door about 2 weeks before you think your new infections will peak, because that is when you start to get a handle on it, and that is when you don't want travelers to ignite new centres of spread.

Best regards
Thomas

Derico wrote:

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me.

Well it's certainly happening in the UK!

I went for my usual shopping trip to the supermarket yesterday and it was like a shop in a third-World war zone. No pasta, no rice, no eggs, very little left in the way of tinned foods and no toilet paper. There was plenty of fresh food, no shortages of vegetables, fruit, meat or fish.

Well it is not happening in Nice and we are very close to Italia. I went for my weekly supermarket shopping this morning and all was absolutely normal.

Germany: Yesterday in a supermarket (EDEKA chain). OK, Friday evening, it was more full than regular. The hysteria could be seen, potatoes and tomatoes were gone (never seen it before), someone has thrown a bomb into the pasta racks. But a new pallet with Barilla spaghetti no 5 was just recently placed and few of all types were still there. So there were enough noodles, but poorly sorted like after an attack of a mass of hysteric arachnids (not controlled by the brain bug). The same for flour, why the hell, the hysteric mass has devastated the flour counter? It was clearly to see, that high amount of flour has been sold at that day.

The toilet paper racks were overfull, but non of them were the regular seen standard brands, prior seen in this supermarket.

No one was standing in front of the fresh fish, cheese and meat counters but in front of the fresh cold cuts.10 were waiting.
Surprisingly, the counter fridges were full.

With exception of potatoes and tomatoes, it seems just to be an issue for the supermarket staff to fill up all the high requested counters fast enough.

The best is, I went to the supermarket, to by tomatoes, spaghetti, fresh cheese and toilet paper...just because I needed it!

I am guessing TP buying frenzy will subside soon. Frozen food is only good if there is electricity. Bread varieties no one touches on a normal day are gone. Tortillas are still there.

I hope utility companies are better prepared with spare parts if equipment breaks down and not rely on overnight from China. I am assuming more than one person knows how to fix or restart. Never-ending cost-cutting and high productivity is going to nip in the back. Otherwise, the entire city has to pray Joe the expert doesn't get sick.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of American households can bake bread at home.

Also how Millenials are dealing with the current situation?

Every try to buy plywood to board up windows before a hurricane?

Or a million other similar things, from generators to TP.

I have yet to see a store with bare shelves, or panic filled carts, but I'm in southern Texas. Maybe next week when I go to north Texas.

I expect panic buying of gasoline and diesel fuel next.

DW and I live full-time in a 36' travel trailer, with a nice efficient 12mpg 2500 pickup to pull the 10,000 lb home. Probably going to be stuck somewhere before this is over. But as I said, the same thing happens every hurricane season somewhere, after major thunderstorm and tornado outbreaks, every year in the US.

And sharing pictures of empty shelves only encourages such stupid behavior.

rfields5421 wrote:

And sharing pictures of empty shelves only encourages such stupid behavior.

So we should pretend it isn’t happening?

It’s been in all the UK newspapers and TV news, so that cat is already out of the bag.

scbriml wrote:

Derico wrote:

Sorry guys, I'll tell it straight. This is not happening in Europe, as far as my friends tell me.

Well it's certainly happening in the UK!

I went for my usual shopping trip to the supermarket yesterday and it was like a shop in a third-World war zone. No pasta, no rice, no eggs, very little left in the way of tinned foods and no toilet paper. There was plenty of fresh food, no shortages of vegetables, fruit, meat or fish.

With the recent border closures and the current conditions in Italy and Spain fresh produce may become a problem soon. A lot of vegetables and fruits, especially in this time of the year, come to nothern Europe from Italy, Spain and other countries around the Mediterranean. Just last week the border controls led to massive 80+ km traffic jams on the Brenner highway (Italy to Austria) - not good for fresh fruits. A decent amount of fresh food (e. g. bananas, mangos, green beans, meat, fish...) also comes from or is processed in Africa and South America, where flight cancellations could prevent the transport to Europe.

This is so f.... stupid, the electricity is not going to fail, the roads are not going to close, living in Florida for my entire life and dealing with real catastrophic events such as hurricanes, I see no point on the panic, I see no point in doing this.

People are stocking up because they seem to believe that the world is going to end. I notice that the educational background of the 'herd' its what drives people to this. I visit my local Walmart very often, but just recently went and its as if a Hurricane is coming, nonetheless I also went to my other store "Publix" its a bit better grocery store, not your typical 'cheap' Walmart. People in the Publix seem more relaxed, calm, getting just a few groceries, whereas in Walmart, multiple carts, hoarding etc.

Is it smart to stock up? depends on how much and how you will affect others who also need these things.

In a week or two, most of the things the 'hoarders' took off the shelves will be back, and I am sure the stores won't have space for them to put because everyone by that time would realize that all of this panic has been severely hyped, by both the media and social media.

I don't own a gun, I must say I for a minute after leaving Walmart, I thought I needed to buy one to protect my family in the event of 'apocalypse'... but then I realized its just crazy to become so influenced by stupid human behavior to get things that I dont need...

You all should read "Lord of the Flies".
Basically, the premise is that being civilized and rational is just a thin coating on an otherwise beastly and primal emotional human being. When the going get tough we immediately revert back to instinct and behave like animals.

tommy1808 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

I did not read any blame for the virus on the US - where did he say that? The criticisms seem to be about the private insurance system and lack of coordinated response from the White House on down.

How would socialized medicine be the savior in this incident?

People actually go to see doctors, you get a clear picture who got infected where and such.
Most places that have such a system also have paid sick leave and people stay at home sooner, because they can afford it.
Information is key, and testing is how you get information. Universal healthcare systems are good at that.

Whether private or public, resources are never unlimited.

But you can unleash a lot of extra resources with a few weeks head start.

We are not going to build excess hospitals that sit empty waiting for the rare pandemic to occur,

And that right there is why you only have 3 times as many ICU beds with 4 times the population than us, and very little excess capacity.

nor are we going to have excess medical staff on the payroll.

For a short time you can surge manpower with overtime, cancelling leave, bringing back retierees, include military medical staff .... there is a lot of headroom, if you are prepared.

it will always be rationed.

The whole idea of aggressive isolation to slow down the spread is to prevent rationing from becoming necessary. Italy failed and hospitals now do triage. If your admin doesn't wake up quickly, you'll be there in two weeks time, if not sooner.

And failing to pull millions of medical tests out of thin air in 24 hours is not an appropriate criticism. No one can do that.

Yes, you can not pull them out of thin air. The US admin could however have ordered those in January, when everybody else did, and have millions of tests ready when the bow wave comes. But no.... MAGA "buy american even if it kills us" admin didn't want to buy the ready, cheap, effective, WHO gold standard, but foreign, test and had the CDC have a go at it... and they bungled it.

Had China been honest and upfront with the rest of the world we would have been much better prepared.

Oh, you mean if you admin had a few weeks more warning than the about 3 month they had until now they would have magically decided to do something before it was everywhere in the US and people started dying. South Korea could use that excuse, Japan could.... you can't, you had plenty of warning.

How is the US handling this any worse than Italy and the rest of the affected countries?

Because you are on the exact same trajectory as Italy, can essentially see 10-14 days into the future ... and do less than Italy did 10-14 days ago?

And they are all now following Trump's lead in implementing travel bans.

They are not following, they do them at the appropriate time. Trump threw the door shut after the horse was out, you what to slap the door about 2 weeks before you think your new infections will peak, because that is when you start to get a handle on it, and that is when you don't want travelers to ignite new centres of spread.

Best regards
Thomas

Tommy, i look at the numbers and I fail to see how you believe you have any right to stand on your pedestal and preach to US with yet another US-hate diatribe. This mornings daily report shows Germany's infection rate is climbing at a far higher rate than the US, even as the US releases hundreds of thousands of test kits. The ONLY metric (and arguably the most important one) that Germany leads is deaths - at this time. As home to one of the very first outbreaks in Germany (Webasto - same strain that ended up in Italy), it does not appear that your country has had any more success fighting this in the long run. I don't know about you but I am far more concerned about my own locale. obviously, you are not. While your special attention to all things USA is flattering, your own survival would be best suited worrying about your own. Thank you.

BTW, it is interesting (suspicious?) that there are no numbers on all the prominent charts regarding tests in Germany while your death and infection rate is an anomaly among all your neighbors in Europe. I have a feeling we are not getting all the news out of Germany, as is often the case when you in particular hold Germany up as Deutschland uber alles - for example, energy.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Mham, the official numbers are meaningless because it seems some countries are testing way more than others. I you don't test for coronavirus, your numbers will be obviously low but it means nothing. Lot at the UK or example and the herd immunity theory.....

Look, cancelling your trip to LA, SEA, NYC, or heck, even Miami is one thing. Raiding grocery stores is another and is beyond ridiculous.

Same here in France. On the evening news they were asking people what they bought, some had filled their minivan to the brim, a woman said she had 3 months of food, another was saying "I don't even know what I bought it was crazy".

I think the big thing that will come out of this is the globalisation hasn’t been the best idea, this aspect of world trade will change.

I was watching a YouTube video on making pre-WWII German Orangeade, Chef makes a comment, because of globalization of food supply, seasons doesn't matter any more. We forget, fresh food availability was local and seasonal and had ways to store for other seasons. Now we expect our favourite fruit to be available every day of the year on store shelves.

Kiwirob wrote:

I think the big thing that will come out of this is the globalisation hasn’t been the best idea, this aspect of world trade will change.

Globalization has been going on for centuries and has survived multiple pandemics.

Kiwirob wrote:

I think the big thing that will come out of this is the globalisation hasn’t been the best idea, this aspect of world trade will change.

Sez the man from New Zealand who now lives in Norway and who works in an industry that created and defines global trade .... Yeah.... that guy...


Well after just returning from the store (buying stuff for a cake this time) the panic seems to have receded. Stuff is still available (though selection is a little thin), toilet paper aisle is still for some reason to popular and empty (WTF? Seriously, why freekin' toilet paper? ) but parking was good and lines were pretty normal and the trucks showed up overnight as expected and restocking occurred.

And again I love the finger pointing I see above but this time some trying to say one country is obviously superior to another country because MY country is awesome... etc. etc. But I am loving watching them getting taken down by other posters and the reality that stuff is kinda stupid everywhere.

Anyway, I have some hope for things but we'll have to wait and see. Now I need to get ready to get together with some friends tonight.
Toodles!

Tugg

Let me take this opportunity to say I HATE the word "hysteria" because it has its origins in "women are crazy" stereotypes and the etymology of the word is a direct reference to the uterus.

Can we not use a word that originated as a derogatory word used towards women? Granted, many in here don't speak English as a first language so I don't know if it's not a loan word in other languages but it's origins are in Latin and Greek.

"Panic buying" is an over reaction, not a true panic. It's an adjustment reaction that occurs when people suddenly realize their lives are about to change and they want some control over something in their lives.

A true panic is when people psychologically to off a cliff and they start rioting, burning down hospitals treating infected patients etc. The real worry with "panic" is violence fueled by fear. We are only seeing a little bit of it with toilet paper fights. If letting people buy toilet paper makes them feel better and not panic, that's fine, just make sure they leave some for the people who are out of toilet paper and need some to wipe with.

If you’re out doing your regular shopping and realize while you aren’t out of supplies yet (such as toilet paper), you will be in need of more soon and you check the shelves so you can grab some because it might not be there when you need it, you’re just as much (or more) of the problem.

It isn’t just the hoarders.

Silver1SWA wrote:

If you’re out doing your regular shopping and realize while you aren’t out of supplies yet (such as toilet paper), you will be in need of more soon and you check the shelves so you can grab some because it might not be there when you need it, you’re just as much (or more) of the problem.

It isn’t just the hoarders.

It basically is a variant of the Prisoners Dilemma: You don't know if the other will rat you out (take all the toilet paper from under your nose) so you better be the one who rats the other out first (take all the toilet paper for yourself before the other gets the chance).

Dieuwer wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

If you’re out doing your regular shopping and realize while you aren’t out of supplies yet (such as toilet paper), you will be in need of more soon and you check the shelves so you can grab some because it might not be there when you need it, you’re just as much (or more) of the problem.

It isn’t just the hoarders.

It basically is a variant of the Prisoners Dilemma: You don't know if the other will rat you out (take all the toilet paper from under your nose) so you better be the one who rats the other out first (take all the toilet paper for yourself before the other gets the chance).

Or just recognize that you will need some soon and instead of waiting until you’re out, you get it a little earlier than scheduled. I’m not interested in taking all of it. But dangit I’m down to 3 rolls.

Tugger wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I think the big thing that will come out of this is the globalisation hasn’t been the best idea, this aspect of world trade will change.

Sez the man from New Zealand who now lives in Norway and who works in an industry that created and defines global trade .... Yeah.... that guy...

Tugg

Yes that guy, to quote R.E.M. ”it’s the end of the world as we know it”.

If you think the events of 9/11 changed things this is going to top that and then some. For a start its cracked open the door to universal healthcare in the US!

People do know that you can use a wash rag to wipe your arse, right? Need to wash it after but that is what was done for many years before toilet paper became common. (Kinda like when we had cloth diapers that we washed before disposables came along.)

Toilet paper is not a necessity people.

Tugg

Kiwirob wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I think the big thing that will come out of this is the globalisation hasn’t been the best idea, this aspect of world trade will change.

Sez the man from New Zealand who now lives in Norway and who works in an industry that created and defines global trade .... Yeah.... that guy...

Tugg

Yes that guy, to quote R.E.M. ”it’s the end of the world as we know it”.

If you think the events of 9/11 changed things this is going to top that and then some. For a start its cracked open the door to universal healthcare in the US!

Your comment was that globalization would be shown to not be "the best idea" yet then you go to the US maybe now looking at universal health care... which would be directly because of globalization and seeing how the rest of the world is handling things.

Global trade is a good thing and will continue, as will globalization. Will things possibly adjust to address weakness in global travel? Maybe. Almost certainly in the near term but long term? Who knows, this is the world we are talking about, full of stupid and always longing to return to lowest effort needed. (It is even possible that the Trump administration will reauthorize the US pandemic response team.)

Tugg

Kiwirob wrote:

For a start its cracked open the door to universal healthcare in the US!

This topic may need a separate detailed thread.

I don't know about universal healthcare but few lifestyle changes I can think of.

Pros
1) Higher education may get a break, by forcing Ivy League schools into online learning.
2) The elderly in-home care industry may boom.

Cons
1) The assisted living industry will take a hit
2) Corporate travel may take a hit as corps redefine essential travel.
3) A virtual divorce is no longer a viable option, couples may have to file for a real one.

petertenthije wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Can we not use a word that originated as a derogatory word used towards women? Granted, many in here don't speak English as a first language so I don't know if it's not a loan word in other languages but it's origins are in Latin and Greek.

Don’t get your panties in a twist.

Hysteria is a perfectly normal word, and no-one even makes the connection to it’s etymology. Well, not till you brought it up. Latin and classical Greek are not really all that well known amongst most people.

And FYI the word hysteria is used in one for or another in most if not all european languages. As well as languages influenced by european languages... which, considering the European colonising days, are A LOT of languages.

And before you say I am making stuff up. I verified the main european languages on google translate. Then randomly tried several other languages. Whenever the language used a script i know, I found something based on hysteria. Since I do only read the latin alphabet I can’t vouch for Russian, Chinese, Thai etc.


And yeah... the choise to use the expression “panties in a twist” was quite deliberate.

Anyone who knows the word "hysterectomy" can make the connection. Granted, I had a grown woman ask me what a hysterectomy was last year, so somehow I guess not everyone knows what that is.

I'm kind of glad Americans tend to say "panic" even if the word is a slight exaggeration for what this is. Hurray for American English.

Kiwirob wrote:

I think the big thing that will come out of this is the globalisation hasn’t been the best idea, this aspect of world trade will change.

Wall Street loves globalization and its interests basically run everything, so...yeah, nah.

petertenthije wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Anyone who knows the word "hysterectomy" can make the connection.

I suppose, that’s not a word found in Dutch language so I had to google that.

Yeah, that's why I noted that it seems to be mostly people who do not speak English as a first language tend to use the word "hysteria". Even without knowing the actual roots of the word we might subconsciously associate it with uteruses, like I do.

Jouhou wrote:

petertenthije wrote:

Jouhou wrote:

Anyone who knows the word "hysterectomy" can make the connection.

I suppose, that’s not a word found in Dutch language so I had to google that.

Yeah, that's why I noted that it seems to be mostly people who do not speak English as a first language tend to use the word "hysteria". Even without knowing the actual roots of the word we might subconsciously associate it with uteruses, like I do.

I'm fairly sure you are in a small minority there.

The vast majority of people would think:
What does it mean when someone is hysterical?
Hysterical means "marked by uncontrollable, extreme emotion." If your favorite sports team wins a championship, you might get hysterical and started weeping and screaming all at once. ...

Hysterical can also mean "extremely funny," even more so than hilarious.

So, having provided some feedback to the supermarket after my shopping expedition on Friday, I received the following email from the Chief Executive. I'm sure my feedback is just coincidental and this is probably a bulk mailshot. Anyway...

Dear Steve,

You will have seen that, due to the ongoing uncertainty around the full impact of Coronavirus, supermarkets have been much busier than usual and customers are choosing to stock up.

I wanted to personally reassure you that we have more food and other essential items coming to us from manufacturers and into our warehouses and distribution centres. If we all shop just for the food that we and our families need, there will be enough for everyone.

I also wanted to let you know that at Sainsbury's, we are working really hard to ensure this remains the case. Over the past two weeks we have:
- Ordered more stock of essential items from our suppliers
- Put more capacity into our warehouses and
- Set limits on a small number of items, including some cleaning products, soap and pain relief. This is a precautionary measure - if everyone shops normally, there will be enough for everyone.

There are gaps on shelves because of increased demand, but we have new stock arriving regularly and we're doing our best to keep shelves stocked. Our store colleagues are working tirelessly and doing the best job they can.

Which brings me onto a request. Please think before you buy and only buy what you and your family need. If we all do this then we can make sure we have enough for everyone. And please help elderly and vulnerable friends, family and neighbours with their shopping if you can.

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for your continued support and to thank our colleagues who are all working incredibly hard to ensure we can continue to serve our customers well.
Best wishes

Mike