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michael478
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:58 pm

morrisond wrote:


Well Regulators haven't exactly been showing supreme judgement - they are the ones that delegated to Boeing.



They delegated or were forced to delegate? There is a difference

Forced to delegate by politicians both through pressure and through decreased funding

Politicians captured by boeing through bribes. Forgive me, i meant lobbying
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:05 pm

michael478 wrote:
morrisond wrote:


Well Regulators haven't exactly been showing supreme judgement - they are the ones that delegated to Boeing.



They delegated or were forced to delegate? There is a difference

Forced to delegate by politicians both through pressure and through decreased funding

Politicians captured by boeing through bribes. Forgive me, i meant lobbying


It's not my country
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:08 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why on earth would the rest not be so easy to cancel? Boeing had not fulfilled their contractual obligations. With the delays already incurred, why is it not up to Air Canada to decide if they want to cancel some, all or none of their order? Just because they cancel some now doesn't mean they will have waved their contractual right to do so for the remainder of the order at some point in the future.

Our discussion suggested that contracts have 'exceptional events' clauses that kick in now that the pandemic has made it unsafe to produce aircraft. Of course such clauses could also allow the customer to defer without penalty. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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astuteman
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:57 pm

morrisond wrote:
TaromA380 wrote:
Exactly what I said. If you're Boeing, then certification rules are for fools. You know better than regulators what's good and what's bad and you follow only what's convenient.



Well Regulators haven't exactly been showing supreme judgement - they are the ones that delegated to Boeing.


I know the issue of delegation challenges quite a few people, but in specialised manufacturing like this, it's virtually impossible to operate without it.
You would end up with the regulator being responsible for designing the product and justifying it.

The OEM HAS to be responsible for the design, and justifying it against regulations.
The OEM designs the product to satisfy a whole heap of requirements, including their commercial aspirations - not just safety.
Every complex manufacturing process I know, including the one I work in, works like this.

The regulator should be there to ensure that the OEM's processes can be assured to deliver that justification, with a particular focus on first level, or critical systems.

Which is why the Boeing decision not to grade MCAS as critical is crucial to the role that the regulator had to play in the certification of the MAX.

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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:43 pm

Looks like progress on MAX has ground (no pun) to a halt as Boeing extends its shutdown “indefinitely”.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ronavirus/
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benbeny
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:50 am

Looks like we have yet another software flaw
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ear-return
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:54 am

benbeny wrote:
Looks like we have yet another software flaw
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ear-return



This really is a never ending saga!
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:13 pm

So as some of our A.Net experts predicted last year, once you start making changes to the core logic of the computers, expect a number of issues / challenges, as it is related to the a/c climbing, diving and AP disengaging, in my non-engineering mindset, these are all tied to the bit flip testing and subsequent changes mandated by the FAA.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:35 pm

Polot wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why on earth would the rest not be so easy to cancel? Boeing had not fulfilled their contractual obligations. With the delays already incurred, why is it not up to Air Canada to decide if they want to cancel some, all or none of their order? Just because they cancel some now doesn't mean they will have waved their contractual right to do so for the remainder of the order at some point in the future.

The agreed upon compensation addresses Boeing’s unfilled contractural obligations. Effectively a new contract is drawn up between the airline and Boeing, which does not necessarily mean airlines can easily cancel-they have contractual obligations too. Canceling your order may null and void your compensation. This is primarily Boeing’s fault, but airlines can’t have their cake and eat it too.


So you're telling me that if Air Canada cancels their remaining MAXs, they won't be compensated for the 24 MAXs which have been out of service for over a year? Forgive me for excercising scepticism - Air Canada has lawyers too.
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:44 pm

zkojq wrote:
Polot wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why on earth would the rest not be so easy to cancel? Boeing had not fulfilled their contractual obligations. With the delays already incurred, why is it not up to Air Canada to decide if they want to cancel some, all or none of their order? Just because they cancel some now doesn't mean they will have waved their contractual right to do so for the remainder of the order at some point in the future.

The agreed upon compensation addresses Boeing’s unfilled contractural obligations. Effectively a new contract is drawn up between the airline and Boeing, which does not necessarily mean airlines can easily cancel-they have contractual obligations too. Canceling your order may null and void your compensation. This is primarily Boeing’s fault, but airlines can’t have their cake and eat it too.


So you're telling me that if Air Canada cancels their remaining MAXs, they won't be compensated for the 24 MAXs which have been out of service for over a year? Forgive me for excercising scepticism - Air Canada has lawyers too.

They will be compensated for those (and may have already been, we don’t know details of compensation settlement), but they may loose out on additional compensation owed for planes not yet delivered.

As I said AC and Boeing have effectively signed a new contract. That contract may not allow AC to cancel all their planes without penalty unless Boeing continues to miss certain milestones (which probably hasn’t happened yet this close to settlement).
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:56 pm

Polot wrote:
....
They will be compensated for those (and may have already been, we don’t know details of compensation settlement), but they may loose out on additional compensation owed for planes not yet delivered.....


what compensation would that be?

based on what?

the airlines now can compensate boeing for not having the costs for planes they can not use for months and maybe years because of corona ...
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:04 pm

asdf wrote:
Polot wrote:
....
They will be compensated for those (and may have already been, we don’t know details of compensation settlement), but they may loose out on additional compensation owed for planes not yet delivered.....


what compensation would that be?

based on what?

the airlines now can compensate boeing for not having the costs for planes they can not use for months and maybe years because of corona ...

Air Canada was suppose to receive additional planes last year (and so far this year? Idk delivery schedule). Obviously they didn’t which means Boeing owes compensation for late planes. What form that takes is negotiated between the airline and Boeing. Depending on what is negotiated you may never receive compensation for late plane if you never take plane to begin with.

And now Boeing and the airlines have to negotiate how they want to handle deferments and things with the Coronavirus (because once RTS is achieved airlines are technically on the hook for payments depending on what contracts say, and will have to ask Boeing for deferments if desired).
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:27 pm

zkojq wrote:
Polot wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why on earth would the rest not be so easy to cancel? Boeing had not fulfilled their contractual obligations. With the delays already incurred, why is it not up to Air Canada to decide if they want to cancel some, all or none of their order? Just because they cancel some now doesn't mean they will have waved their contractual right to do so for the remainder of the order at some point in the future.

The agreed upon compensation addresses Boeing’s unfilled contractural obligations. Effectively a new contract is drawn up between the airline and Boeing, which does not necessarily mean airlines can easily cancel-they have contractual obligations too. Canceling your order may null and void your compensation. This is primarily Boeing’s fault, but airlines can’t have their cake and eat it too.


So you're telling me that if Air Canada cancels their remaining MAXs, they won't be compensated for the 24 MAXs which have been out of service for over a year? Forgive me for excercising scepticism - Air Canada has lawyers too.


Usually, when an airline signs an agreement for compensation of delayed delivery, a clause is added the (remaining) order cannot be cancelled without penalty. Pre-payment is forfeited and/or cancellation fees are due. It's not unprecedented, like when TG had second thoughts about their A380 order. They wanted to cancel, but had already agreed on compensation from Airbus (US$ 100 million extra discount on an additional A330 order) for delayed delivery. They didn't have to repay the compensation to Airbus, but did face a US$ 700 million cancellation penalty cost, so TG decided to keep the order.

This is very logical, otherwise every airline wanting to cancel an order would first collect compensation and then just cancel. Boeing and Airbus have lawyers too.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:05 pm

par13del wrote:
So as some of our A.Net experts predicted last year, once you start making changes to the core logic of the computers, expect a number of issues / challenges, as it is related to the a/c climbing, diving and AP disengaging, in my non-engineering mindset, these are all tied to the bit flip testing and subsequent changes mandated by the FAA.

I don't think it's even in that category.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-m ... 47810.html said:

The planemaker confirmed to Reuters that one issue involves hypothetical faults in the flight control computer microprocessor, which could potentially lead to a loss of control known as a runaway stabilizer, while the other issue could potentially lead to disengagement of the autopilot feature during final approach. Boeing said the software updates will address both issues.
....
Boeing said neither new software issue has been observed in flight. Boeing said in the autopilot issue "flight deck alerts and warnings are already in place to alert the crew if it did."

IMO these hypothetical/potential issues are the kinds of things you find via a software audit more so than live testing, but that is just my intuition based on what's in the media reports. I suppose the hypothetical/potential trigger could be a bit flip, though.
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:04 pm

morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
744SPX wrote:
If its possible to resurrect that original design and get it to EIS in say, 5 years, that might actually work

My thought process is that innovation will not start in the narrow body field, the technology has to be proofed before being scaled down, usually a wide body.
The only major change in the narrow body field in recent times has been engines, see the 737 and A320, the A320 started with FBW, what major change has occurred since then to warrant a new build?
Even the supposed new cockpit the FAA is talking about, the A32X, 787 and A350 are not being mandated to have that changed, and they will be the backbone of the aviation for decades to come, so if the NSA is kicked off now, they can probably use some variant of 787 / 777X.


One would hope - but I think the MAX procedure testing in the fall really opened some eyes.

If the MAX gets back in the Air - then I think they should take the required time to try and build the idiot proof airplane as much as possible - with a big red button to completely revert to an alternative Auto Pilot when HAL tries to kill you that uses a completely different set of sensors and puts the airplane in a straight and level attitude and instantly connects to the ground where the pilots can trouble shoot with Manufacturers Experts who are on call 24/7.

Satellite links are good enough and there would be enough sensors on the plane that the ground crew could follow along with what the pIlots are seeing in a Full Motion Sim.

That's a lot easier than training crews on what are sure to be more and more complex aircraft going forward. No need to memorize hundred's of procedures.

The evolution of aircraft design has been such that aircraft are continually becoming easier to fly. That’s why flight engineers are no longer required on the flight deck. Boeing’s next narrowbody will be easier to deal with than any iteration of the 737. For starters, it will be fly-by-wire. Even it’s most basic flight mode will require computers to do the actual flying.

As it is, I am not sure the MAX could be flown without the aid of computers anymore. I am far from convinced that your idea of a big red button is possible. Additionally, I think your idea of a plane that had real-time satellite uplink to connect to a ground sim, in case of emergency, verges on the absurd. I don’t know about you, but I really don’t want that kind of connectivity between my aircraft and the ground. The dangerous potential for remote hacker hijacking is just waaaaay to close for my liking.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:09 pm

The descriptions are vague, I hope the new faults are not related to TK1951, a crash investigation & crew blaming that always left me confused. Even more after the similar MAX crashes and initial conclusions.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:38 pm

aerolimani wrote:
morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
My thought process is that innovation will not start in the narrow body field, the technology has to be proofed before being scaled down, usually a wide body.
The only major change in the narrow body field in recent times has been engines, see the 737 and A320, the A320 started with FBW, what major change has occurred since then to warrant a new build?
Even the supposed new cockpit the FAA is talking about, the A32X, 787 and A350 are not being mandated to have that changed, and they will be the backbone of the aviation for decades to come, so if the NSA is kicked off now, they can probably use some variant of 787 / 777X.


One would hope - but I think the MAX procedure testing in the fall really opened some eyes.

If the MAX gets back in the Air - then I think they should take the required time to try and build the idiot proof airplane as much as possible - with a big red button to completely revert to an alternative Auto Pilot when HAL tries to kill you that uses a completely different set of sensors and puts the airplane in a straight and level attitude and instantly connects to the ground where the pilots can trouble shoot with Manufacturers Experts who are on call 24/7.

Satellite links are good enough and there would be enough sensors on the plane that the ground crew could follow along with what the pIlots are seeing in a Full Motion Sim.

That's a lot easier than training crews on what are sure to be more and more complex aircraft going forward. No need to memorize hundred's of procedures.

The evolution of aircraft design has been such that aircraft are continually becoming easier to fly. That’s why flight engineers are no longer required on the flight deck. Boeing’s next narrowbody will be easier to deal with than any iteration of the 737. For starters, it will be fly-by-wire. Even it’s most basic flight mode will require computers to do the actual flying.

As it is, I am not sure the MAX could be flown without the aid of computers anymore. I am far from convinced that your idea of a big red button is possible. Additionally, I think your idea of a plane that had real-time satellite uplink to connect to a ground sim, in case of emergency, verges on the absurd. I don’t know about you, but I really don’t want that kind of connectivity between my aircraft and the ground. The dangerous potential for remote hacker hijacking is just waaaaay to close for my liking.


Yes remote Hijacking is possible but I'm pretty sure we will see something similar once we go Single Pilot in the cockpit so a solution will have to be found.

Any new clean sheet airliner will have to be engineered with the Possibility of Single Pilot Cockpit at some point in the future.

Such a link could have possibly saved the MAX flights as the experts on the ground could have helped them trouble shoot and run the right procedures.

It essentially what happened on LH 1829 - a great crew was able to stabilize the airplane and talk to the ground to troubleshoot - this would just be an evolution of that. You wouldn't have to give the ground control - but if you did I'm pretty sure Military Grade encryption would be strong enough. Boeing does have some experience with Drones and controlling them from the ground.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:05 am

Revelation wrote:
IMO these hypothetical/potential issues are the kinds of things you find via a software audit more so than live testing, but that is just my intuition based on what's in the media reports. I suppose the hypothetical/potential trigger could be a bit flip, though.

My use of the bit flip issue is that from that failure the FAA mandated that the flight computers that were previously used on alternate flights must now be used simultaneously, a different form of redundancy. My thought is that those changes which started in June-2019 and were submitted in Nov-2019 along with the other warning issues is the primary factor behind the continuing software issues. Based on the timelines seen, the MCAS fix to prevent the over powering of the pilots took 3 months, the fix out of the bit flip failure took 5 months and is still counting. Hopefully those who observed the sim training sessions and wrote the adjusted training manuals / procedures for dealing with MCAS and the new warning systems are working remotely on their adjustments and refinement so that when the lock down is lifted, it will not take too long to prepare the sims for new training sessions.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:09 am

aerolimani wrote:
As it is, I am not sure the MAX could be flown without the aid of computers anymore.

Do you mean based on how the computers meet FAA requirements or that the a/c is physically unstable and can only be flown by computer?
I would discount the latter since none of the FAA requirements are for all the hydraulics and cables etc. to be switched out to allow FBW operations, such would require a new a/c, I think.
 
AIRT0M
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
Looks like progress on MAX has ground (no pun) to a halt as Boeing extends its shutdown “indefinitely”.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ronavirus/


Not unexpected.

It's still a mystery to me, how Corona is the best thing, that could happen to Boeing, as some people on a.net believe..
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:22 pm

AIRT0M wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Looks like progress on MAX has ground (no pun) to a halt as Boeing extends its shutdown “indefinitely”.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ronavirus/


Not unexpected.

It's still a mystery to me, how Corona is the best thing, that could happen to Boeing, as some people on a.net believe..


I can only suppose because it allows them to turn the spot light onto Airbus, Their falling production rates, their parlous financial position etc etc.

I cannot see how there is upside for either company and Boeing was in a worse starting position.

Both companies, their workforce and their supply chain, are in for a horrendous few years. For the two companies I see the 777x and A330neo as most at risk.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
par13del wrote:
So as some of our A.Net experts predicted last year, once you start making changes to the core logic of the computers, expect a number of issues / challenges, as it is related to the a/c climbing, diving and AP disengaging, in my non-engineering mindset, these are all tied to the bit flip testing and subsequent changes mandated by the FAA.

I don't think it's even in that category.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-m ... 47810.html said:

The planemaker confirmed to Reuters that one issue involves hypothetical faults in the flight control computer microprocessor, which could potentially lead to a loss of control known as a runaway stabilizer, while the other issue could potentially lead to disengagement of the autopilot feature during final approach. Boeing said the software updates will address both issues.
....
Boeing said neither new software issue has been observed in flight. Boeing said in the autopilot issue "flight deck alerts and warnings are already in place to alert the crew if it did."

IMO these hypothetical/potential issues are the kinds of things you find via a software audit more so than live testing, but that is just my intuition based on what's in the media reports. I suppose the hypothetical/potential trigger could be a bit flip, though.


Most likely a mix of bit flip issues and a changed risk analysis which now put a failure in flight control system as catastrophic. (which it was not for the "all manual" predecessors)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
Most likely a mix of bit flip issues and a changed risk analysis which now put a failure in flight control system as catastrophic. (which it was not for the "all manual" predecessors)

True, but if we believe the way to address bit flip is by comparing outputs from the active/active pair, a bit flip really should not be causing new issues other than those related to recovering from a failed comparison. The descriptions make me think they were latent issues in the code base (but of course I can't be sure, the descriptions are vague) and as you say are now actionable since the the FCC has become mission critical rather than being a very expensive autopilot.
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:19 pm

For a design that never had to compare data from sensor before, I would not be surprised at all that disagreements between the sensors or even sensor data far outside the realistic range will create issues, many unforeseen.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:44 pm

seahawk wrote:
For a design that never had to compare data from sensor before, I would not be surprised at all that disagreements between the sensors or even sensor data far outside the realistic range will create issues, many unforeseen.

Bingo in my line of thinking, it is one thing to have every function duplicated, quite another to take those same computers now have them work simultaneously. Latency would definitely take a hit if both have to be updated simultaneously, even if only a subset of data, so far we did not hear of the computers being changed for ones with more power, so what would be simple programming becomes more complicated since very little excess processing power may be available.
Recall all the debates we previously had about programming language, machine, cpu chips etc on the existing computer used on the MAX.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:55 pm

par13del wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
As it is, I am not sure the MAX could be flown without the aid of computers anymore.

Do you mean based on how the computers meet FAA requirements or that the a/c is physically unstable and can only be flown by computer?
I would discount the latter since none of the FAA requirements are for all the hydraulics and cables etc. to be switched out to allow FBW operations, such would require a new a/c, I think.

I was more thinking of the spoilers, yaw damper, speed trim, mach trim, and MCAS, of course. While the aircraft could still be flown without those systems, it would require significant extra training in order for pilots to do so. Thus, I find morrisond’s big red button proposal to be unrealistic. I think the amount of big red button training would dwarf any MCAS related training we’re likely to see.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:21 pm

aerolimani wrote:
par13del wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
As it is, I am not sure the MAX could be flown without the aid of computers anymore.

Do you mean based on how the computers meet FAA requirements or that the a/c is physically unstable and can only be flown by computer?
I would discount the latter since none of the FAA requirements are for all the hydraulics and cables etc. to be switched out to allow FBW operations, such would require a new a/c, I think.

I was more thinking of the spoilers, yaw damper, speed trim, mach trim, and MCAS, of course. While the aircraft could still be flown without those systems, it would require significant extra training in order for pilots to do so. Thus, I find morrisond’s big red button proposal to be unrealistic. I think the amount of big red button training would dwarf any MCAS related training we’re likely to see.


The Big red button would apply to future aircraft - I was not talking about the MAX.

But it would also engage a separate Auto pilot system to fly the airplane straight and level if that was beyond a crew or they were incapacitated.

If a crew can't fly a plane in Manual Mode - they should be not be flying it - these are all basic skills taught in basic training. A few more add-on's on a MAX (Spoilers) - but those are found in Piston Aircraft as well and not necessarily needed to safely operate an aircraft.

Speed trim just helps to keep the plane in trim - that should not be beyond the skills of any pilot either.

They just need to practise those skills.

If not then we need a new class of License. Systems Operator vs Pilot. No need to confuse them with knowledge like how to use a Rudder.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:00 pm

morrisond wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
par13del wrote:
Do you mean based on how the computers meet FAA requirements or that the a/c is physically unstable and can only be flown by computer?
I would discount the latter since none of the FAA requirements are for all the hydraulics and cables etc. to be switched out to allow FBW operations, such would require a new a/c, I think.

I was more thinking of the spoilers, yaw damper, speed trim, mach trim, and MCAS, of course. While the aircraft could still be flown without those systems, it would require significant extra training in order for pilots to do so. Thus, I find morrisond’s big red button proposal to be unrealistic. I think the amount of big red button training would dwarf any MCAS related training we’re likely to see.


The Big red button would apply to future aircraft - I was not talking about the MAX.

But it would also engage a separate Auto pilot system to fly the airplane straight and level if that was beyond a crew or they were incapacitated.

If a crew can't fly a plane in Manual Mode - they should be not be flying it - these are all basic skills taught in basic training. A few more add-on's on a MAX (Spoilers) - but those are found in Piston Aircraft as well and not necessarily needed to safely operate an aircraft.

Speed trim just helps to keep the plane in trim - that should not be beyond the skills of any pilot either.

They just need to practise those skills.

If not then we need a new class of License. Systems Operator vs Pilot. No need to confuse them with knowledge like how to use a Rudder.

In your many previous mentions of the BRB, it definitely seemed like you were discussing the MAX, and as a means to disable misbehaving computer automation, specifically MCAS.

All current commercial transport FBW designs have a BRB (big red button). In Airbus systems, there’s various levels of alternate law, direct law, and mechanical law. I’m not sure how Boeing’s secondary law system works, but it exists. I’m also not sure what BBD labeled theirs for the CSeries, but I guarantee you it is there.

So, if you’re not proposing the BRB for the MAX, then your idea has already existed for some fifty-odd years. It is virtually guaranteed, Boeing’s next NB will be FBW and will have its BRB mode just like all Boeing’s other FBW designs.
 
beechnut
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:39 pm

Heck even the 737-100 had a "big red button" but it had a different name. It was called "Auto-pilot disconnect".

Fly the airplane...

Beech
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:23 am

aerolimani wrote:
morrisond wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
I was more thinking of the spoilers, yaw damper, speed trim, mach trim, and MCAS, of course. While the aircraft could still be flown without those systems, it would require significant extra training in order for pilots to do so. Thus, I find morrisond’s big red button proposal to be unrealistic. I think the amount of big red button training would dwarf any MCAS related training we’re likely to see.


The Big red button would apply to future aircraft - I was not talking about the MAX.

But it would also engage a separate Auto pilot system to fly the airplane straight and level if that was beyond a crew or they were incapacitated.

If a crew can't fly a plane in Manual Mode - they should be not be flying it - these are all basic skills taught in basic training. A few more add-on's on a MAX (Spoilers) - but those are found in Piston Aircraft as well and not necessarily needed to safely operate an aircraft.

Speed trim just helps to keep the plane in trim - that should not be beyond the skills of any pilot either.

They just need to practise those skills.

If not then we need a new class of License. Systems Operator vs Pilot. No need to confuse them with knowledge like how to use a Rudder.

In your many previous mentions of the BRB, it definitely seemed like you were discussing the MAX, and as a means to disable misbehaving computer automation, specifically MCAS.

All current commercial transport FBW designs have a BRB (big red button). In Airbus systems, there’s various levels of alternate law, direct law, and mechanical law. I’m not sure how Boeing’s secondary law system works, but it exists. I’m also not sure what BBD labeled theirs for the CSeries, but I guarantee you it is there.

So, if you’re not proposing the BRB for the MAX, then your idea has already existed for some fifty-odd years. It is virtually guaranteed, Boeing’s next NB will be FBW and will have its BRB mode just like all Boeing’s other FBW designs.


Sorry - yes I thought you meant I was suggesting it for the MAX. Although it would be nice if there was a button on the MAX like the NG to turn off any intervention.

Or just pull Circuit Breakers which has been done before on other designs..
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:38 pm

Another 34 MAX cancellation-this time by GOL
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKCN21W247
 
milhaus
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:31 pm

Morisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed...but everyone now knows that this fix does not work. Boeing has to start again and propose better fix. This fix should include tripple sensor redundancy and way more powerfull computers.
 
beechnut
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:16 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Another 34 MAX cancellation-this time by GOL
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKCN21W247


To be fair it looks like an order reduction and not an outright cancellation. One would expect the same will happen with Airbus due to COVID-19 effects which may last a very long time.

AC also cancelled their 11 MAX 9s but haven't cancelled any 8s yet.

When blue-chip airlines cancel their entire MAX order is when Boeing really has to start worrying. Especially if they order something else. If the travel market is depressed for a prolonged period, the A220 may be an excellent choice to reduce capacity without reducing efficiency or mission capability. A few PIPs and an LR option and the A220-300s range will be very close to a MAX 8's, as it stands only 200 n.m. max range difference.

Beech
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:33 pm

beechnut wrote:
When blue-chip airlines cancel their entire MAX order is when Boeing really has to start worrying.
Beech

300+ folks dead, the MAX grounded for over a year but Boeing will only worry when orders are cancelled?
Wow...
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:46 pm

Let me try to get ahead of Covid-19 and how it will affect the 737Max (and Airbus 320 family). I actually think that it's likely that both Airbus and Boeing will see in the range of 1000 narrow body cancellations each as a fallout from Covid-19. Another reality is that still leaves very large multi thousands of aircraft on order for each company. The remaining aircraft on order will likely have their deliveries extended at least for the next few years. Overall; I believe that both Airbus and Boeing will do well to be able to operate at 75% of their previous delivery rate for the next 18 months after restarting their plants (and it might only be 50%). Both companies will have financial difficulties.. and I believe that both companies will survive.

I have no idea on how to speculate on how Bombardier or Embraer will do with the fallout from Covid-19.

Have a great day,
 
beechnut
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:05 am

par13del wrote:
beechnut wrote:
When blue-chip airlines cancel their entire MAX order is when Boeing really has to start worrying.
Beech

300+ folks dead, the MAX grounded for over a year but Boeing will only worry when orders are cancelled?
Wow...


So far Boeing have entertained the fantasy that the MAX will return to service... any time now. I doubt a couple of hundred order reductions due to market conditions will change their narrative. But if say AC were to cancel all their remaining MAX and put the ones they have parked up for sale saying "we no longer have confidence in this aircraft and your ability to return it to service", you don't think that might have oh, just a wee impact on Boeing's confidence in the future of the program? Or if IAG would tear up that letter of intent? Or if Ryanair bailed?

I don't think a few order reductions in the COVID-19 crisis will shake their confidence in continuing the program, after all Airbus are going to face the same thing. Eventually though, old aircraft need to be replaced. And if a large number of orders are just cancelled outright, I think that would rattle them. And rattled they deserve to be.

Beech
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:07 am

milhaus wrote:
Morisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed...but everyone now knows that this fix does not work. Boeing has to start again and propose better fix. This fix should include tripple sensor redundancy and way more powerfull computers.


If you had bothered to read the whole thread this is not what I said. Please read the forum rules.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:48 am

morrisond wrote:
milhaus wrote:
Morisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed...but everyone now knows that this fix does not work. Boeing has to start again and propose better fix. This fix should include tripple sensor redundancy and way more powerfull computers.


If you had bothered to read the whole thread this is not what I said. Please read the forum rules.


I can`t get it !
"milhaus" said : morrisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed.... which you did in post #72 and in post #78 you said " it was a relatively easy fix....
So tell me what`s wrong ?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:52 am

beechnut wrote:
So far Boeing have entertained the fantasy that the MAX will return to service... any time now.
Beech

Ok, we know that the head of the FAA told the former head of Boeing to shut up, he was subsequently "let go". The only person who was optimistic on early RTS was the head of the FAA and my belief is that he was trying to prop up Boeing stock. At the start of 2020 the new Boeing head said mid year for RTS, the head of the FAA said that was too conservative, he stated that view point in London and the Far East, so your narrative on that score in relation to Boeing is incorrect. As this was all before the virus started shutting down the world, no one now knows when RTS will take place since the majority of folks needed for certification are not working. We are not even sure how many different sections of folks needed are able to work remotely and securely share information. EASA inspectors need to be on site, we have no idea when that will be allowed, so who exactly at present is saying RTS any time now, the champion of that in my opinion the head of the FAA has probably told himself to shut up.
We are in dark days of information sharing.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:55 am

So Boeing delivered five Boeing 737 during the first quarter of 2020. Were those NGs or BBJs? Or MAXs that changed their owners for contractual reasons? Who took them and what versions were handed over please?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:09 am

Noshow wrote:
So Boeing delivered five Boeing 737 during the first quarter of 2020. Were those NGs or BBJs? Or MAXs that changed their owners for contractual reasons? Who took them and what versions were handed over please?


The information is readily available on Boeing's website: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries

It shows 737 deliveries through end March as being:
2 x 737-800 for China Eastern (del 5-Jan)
3 x 737-800 for BDS for conversion to USN P-8A (del 22-Jan, 18-Feb & 16-Mar)
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:31 am

Thanks.
 
beechnut
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:16 pm

par13del wrote:
so your narrative on that score in relation to Boeing is incorrect.


It was not a narrative, but an opinion.

Boeing on the other hand have spun a narrative that RTS is "soon". I guess it depends on your definition of "soon". We all know now that the combination of not yet having an approved solution *and* the pandemic crisis will make it later rather than sooner.

Beech
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:00 pm

oldJoe wrote:
morrisond wrote:
milhaus wrote:
Morisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed...but everyone now knows that this fix does not work. Boeing has to start again and propose better fix. This fix should include tripple sensor redundancy and way more powerfull computers.


If you had bothered to read the whole thread this is not what I said. Please read the forum rules.


I can`t get it !
"milhaus" said : morrisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed.... which you did in post #72 and in post #78 you said " it was a relatively easy fix....
So tell me what`s wrong ?


It was a relatively easy fix until they discovered the bit flip issue which made things exponentially more complicated.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:18 pm

morrisond wrote:
It was a relatively easy fix until they discovered the bit flip issue which made things exponentially more complicated.



Unless the bit flip is not related to the MCAS fix, then it wasn't a relatively easy fix surely. So was the bit flip a totally new problem totally separate from the MCAS fix?
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:27 pm

beechnut wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why on earth would the rest not be so easy to cancel? Boeing had not fulfilled their contractual obligations. With the delays already incurred, why is it not up to Air Canada to decide if they want to cancel some, all or none of their order? Just because they cancel some now doesn't mean they will have waved their contractual right to do so for the remainder of the order at some point in the future.



Air Canada has already negotiated the terms of a settlement with Boeing. The terms are confidential (I posted it in the MAX news thread sticky). So presumably they can't just cancel willy-nilly, unless the terms *are* a cancellation but then that they would have had to disclose.

So if AC were to cancel now, they'd probably be in breach of contract. On the other hand, I would suppose that the terms include a clause like "however if RTS is later than YYYY-MM-DD, these terms no longer apply and AC is free to cancel all remaining orders" and "If Boeing cancels RTS, the following will apply...". What happens to already delivered aircraft would possibly be included especially if there's no RTS at all (something I believe is no longer a remote possibility).

However as it's all confidential, we will only know if there is RTS or failure to RTS. The AC VP finance said that contingency measures would only work until the end of this year. That was before COVID-19 of course. That statement may or may not hold depending on how fast air travel returns to service after the virus has peaked in most places. For us foamers, it's wait and see what happens.

Beech

Business is business and I get that, but if I were Air Canada I wouldn’t give Boeing that much rope. The MAX already was compensation for the 787 being completely botched and them not meeting their contract on that and now they keep failing to meet contract on the compensation for their previous failure. I would just say you breached contract badly twice, the first time by being years late and the second time by selling us a product that is neither legal nor safe to use with no fix in sight; you’ve lost your customer as we don’t owe you anything from where we stand. That’s how it’s done in other businesses as such incompetence doesn’t stand unless there’s a good bit of corruption on both sides. Boeing does not deserve the business anymore nor will Air Canada probably need the lift before they could source some lightly used A320s and order some new A321s.
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LJ
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:46 pm

767333ER wrote:
Business is business and I get that, but if I were Air Canada I wouldn’t give Boeing that much rope. The MAX already was compensation for the 787 being completely botched and them not meeting their contract on that and now they keep failing to meet contract on the compensation for their previous failure. I would just say you breached contract badly twice, the first time by being years late and the second time by selling us a product that is neither legal nor safe to use with no fix in sight; you’ve lost your customer as we don’t owe you anything from where we stand. That’s how it’s done in other businesses as such incompetence doesn’t stand unless there’s a good bit of corruption on both sides. Boeing does not deserve the business anymore nor will Air Canada probably need the lift before they could source some lightly used A320s and order some new A321s.


However, what's the downside potential for AC? If the MAX has become less expensive due to the compensation and AC doesn't actually need them right now, there isn't much downside potential anymore for AC. I reckon there will be more buyers who make the calculations and decide that with the compensation their MAXes are becoming cheap enough to sit this one out and don't mind waiting a few more months.
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:05 pm

enzo011 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
It was a relatively easy fix until they discovered the bit flip issue which made things exponentially more complicated.



Unless the bit flip is not related to the MCAS fix, then it wasn't a relatively easy fix surely. So was the bit flip a totally new problem totally separate from the MCAS fix?


My understanding (and it may be wrong) is that they are related.

My understanding is that the bit-flip is seen by regulators as (another) mechanism that could falsely trigger MCAS run-away.

If the MAX would not have MCAS, the bit flip may not have posed a serious problem.

However with MCAS presence (and more importantly, its failure classification as catastrophic) makes the bit flip issue a serious issue that muist be addressed prior to RtS.
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:48 pm

PW100 wrote:
My understanding (and it may be wrong) is that they are related.

My understanding is that the bit-flip is seen by regulators as (another) mechanism that could falsely trigger MCAS run-away.

If the MAX would not have MCAS, the bit flip may not have posed a serious problem.

However with MCAS presence (and more importantly, its failure classification as catastrophic) makes the bit flip issue a serious issue that muist be addressed prior to RtS.



So it is related, its just not related to the MCAS fix but to MCAS itself. Is this Schrodinger's "issue"? It is both a easy fix and at the same time its extremely complicated and complex to fix.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:56 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Another 34 MAX cancellation-this time by GOL
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKCN21W247

We already have a thread for that ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1444647 ). It's not clear if this is mcas driven or covid driven or both. Probably best to discuss it there.

milhaus wrote:
Morisond wrote MCAS was easily fixed...but everyone now knows that this fix does not work. Boeing has to start again and propose better fix. This fix should include tripple sensor redundancy and way more powerfull computers.

"Everyone" does not know this. What we do know from the aviation media is the software went through its audit with a few small problems that are being addressed, and before the covid shutdown the airplane was a few weeks away from the certification test flight. We do not have any credible report that suggests "Boeing has to start again".

beechnut wrote:
I doubt a couple of hundred order reductions due to market conditions will change their narrative. But if say AC were to cancel all their remaining MAX and put the ones they have parked up for sale saying "we no longer have confidence in this aircraft and your ability to return it to service", you don't think that might have oh, just a wee impact on Boeing's confidence in the future of the program?

AC did walk away from A320 when it chose MAX, and the A320 program somehow survived.

AC will not do what you suggested. It would not be in its interest to publicly slag one of the two major vendors, the blow back could be severe and the benefit would be minimal. If they ever do want to walk away from MAX they will find a way to do so that doesn't involve willy wagging.
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