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JJJ
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sat May 09, 2020 10:10 pm

PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....


Cuba punches way above their weight in whatever health-related indicator you want to choose. They're a massive outlier on a world where every other country correlates health outcomes with GDP.

Compare for example with the Dominican republic. Same climate, same region, similar GDP and population size but Cuba beats Dominican Republic by a large margin in every health indicator you want to list.


Except for maternal mortality, huh? They’re pretty close to the average Latin American country with terrible maternal mortality.


They have half of Brazil's rate and a third of that of the Dominican republic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... lity_ratio

Again, they punch way above their weight.
 
GDB
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sat May 09, 2020 10:15 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
We are seeing the same things.

Used to share an apartment with a Venezuelan doctor who was training in the US. This was when Chavez was coming into power. He explained exactly how his country was going to crumble, first devastating the relatively elite families like his (who mostly left), and later devastating all the poor people, taking the country back to the Stone Age. He knew it from the moment Chavez came to power, that his country was f***ed. Now he is a rich doctor in Florida. You hear the same thing from South Africans today. Civilization can be destroyed. We Americans act like things can't go backwards. But they can. It takes a real idiot to screw up America, after basically winning the game, but the right combination of idiots can do it.

South Africans? What was the elixr for South Africa? Per your comment Chavez being elected contributed to Venezuela's condition, so what was it for South Africa


South Africa now has a populist socialist government that is dismantling the economy, which will, in the end, put it back into dirt poverty.


The main problem in SA isn't what political colour it is, it's the corruption.
The massive concentration of wealth into a tiny elite isn't very 'socialist', or social democratic to be precise.
You can argue the non democratic socialist nations do that, since they do not fear the electorate. So do right wing ones. (As too often favored by the US).
SA's problem was that once majority rule was established, there was not a real rival to the ANC.
One party rule leads one way, whatever the political colour, real or perceived.
 
PPVRA
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sat May 09, 2020 10:26 pm

JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Cuba punches way above their weight in whatever health-related indicator you want to choose. They're a massive outlier on a world where every other country correlates health outcomes with GDP.

Compare for example with the Dominican republic. Same climate, same region, similar GDP and population size but Cuba beats Dominican Republic by a large margin in every health indicator you want to list.


Except for maternal mortality, huh? They’re pretty close to the average Latin American country with terrible maternal mortality.


They have half of Brazil's rate and a third of that of the Dominican republic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... lity_ratio

Again, they punch way above their weight.


A few other Latin American counties right around And even ahead of Cuba’s numbers in that list.

Meanwhile, they’ve accomplished this similar numbers while adopting democracy, Rule of law, freedom and markets at least to some extent. They’ve struggled, no doubt, but they’ve started on that road—far more than Cuba can claim.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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zkojq
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sat May 09, 2020 10:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Lost all credibility (again) with the Thatcher comment - she was a shameless sellout to the evil Gulf royals who worked hard from the 80s on to spread Wahhabism throughout the Muslim world.


Come on? really you are the types who celebrates women in power such as Speaker Pelosi.

I have my favorite too, and she was the first head of government of a major country in the world. She had to fight the sexism and misogyny in order to become one of the most successful leaders of the UK.

You don't like her? OK, allow me to respond with another quote from her: "If you just set out to be liked, you will be prepared to compromise on anything at anytime, and would achieve nothing."


She literally destroyed the UK's manufacturing industry to weaken the influence of the Unions and thus the Labour Party so as to preserve her power. So patriotic!

GDB wrote:
The main problem in SA isn't what political colour it is, it's the corruption.
The massive concentration of wealth into a tiny elite isn't very 'socialist', or social democratic to be precise.
You can argue the non democratic socialist nations do that, since they do not fear the electorate. So do right wing ones. (As too often favored by the US).
SA's problem was that once majority rule was established, there was not a real rival to the ANC.
One party rule leads one way, whatever the political colour, real or perceived.


:checkmark: any country which has a corruption problem, a lack of rule of law and where government leaders are not held accountable will be an economic basketcase. For all his faults, at least Ramaphosa is less corrupt than Zuma - not much of an achievement really though.
First to fly the 787-9
 
johns624
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sat May 09, 2020 11:02 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Lost all credibility (again) with the Thatcher comment - she was a shameless sellout to the evil Gulf royals who worked hard from the 80s on to spread Wahhabism throughout the Muslim world.


Come on? really you are the types who celebrates women in power such as Speaker Pelosi.

I have my favorite too, and she was the first head of government of a major country in the world. She had to fight the sexism and misogyny in order to become one of the most successful leaders of the UK.

You don't like her? OK, allow me to respond with another quote from her: "If you just set out to be liked, you will be prepared to compromise on anything at anytime, and would achieve nothing."
The only reason that Maggie has the legacy that she does, is due to a man you've probably never heard of, Admiral Sir Henry Leach. Her government gutted the military and let the Argies know that they didn't really care about the Falklands. If Argentina had waited 6 more months, the carriers would've been gone, along with the LPDs. The Cabinet was meeting and trying to figure out how they could save face while doing nothing, when Sir Henry walked in. He convinced them that the RN could retake the islands.
A little tidbit from history--His father, John, was captain of the battleship HMS Prince of Wales when she encountered the Bismarck and the HMS Hood was sunk. He was killed when his ship, along with HMS Repulse was sunk by the Japanese off the coast of Malaya in December, 1941.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 1:44 am

Oh man this thread is entertaining, got a bunch of Yanks, Brits, and other Europeans squabbling about external influence in other countries...welcome to the big show and the history of humanity. Left and right try to make themselves out to be the noble ones all while calling the other side idiots and criminals.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
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Aaron747
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 2:06 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Lost all credibility (again) with the Thatcher comment - she was a shameless sellout to the evil Gulf royals who worked hard from the 80s on to spread Wahhabism throughout the Muslim world.


Come on? really you are the types who celebrates women in power such as Speaker Pelosi.

I have my favorite too, and she was the first head of government of a major country in the world. She had to fight the sexism and misogyny in order to become one of the most successful leaders of the UK.

You don't like her? OK, allow me to respond with another quote from her: "If you just set out to be liked, you will be prepared to compromise on anything at anytime, and would achieve nothing."


Gender has nothing to do with it - enough with your identity politics canards. You may care about that, I don’t. Either gender can make bad choices as leaders - hers were painfully sucking up to Saudi royals and sacking a large chunk of the middle class. Nearly every popular British song in the 80s takes shots at her. If you want to respect a western female leader, you should read the biography of Golda Meir.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Pyrex
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 4:30 am

Not a good week for U.S. coup plotters, at home or abroad.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 4:41 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/worl ... -coup.html

One thing Trump knows about is a coup. He participated in one in 2016.
 
GDB
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 7:13 am

A note about Thatcher, from someone who lives here, lived through her rule.
She did, I agree, face some sexism, getting into parliament in the 1950's, finally making it in '59.
However, marrying a millionaire who had links in the Tory part sure damn helped.

(Recently, with VE Day 75th anniversary, I am reminded of something that only came up on her death. Unlike the Queen, who as Princess Elizabeth on reaching 18 joined the ATS, a branch of the forces where she maintained military vehicles. The young Margaret Roberts as she was then, must have been the only healthy young woman in WW2 Britain who did not join a branch of the services open to women then doing the many tasks releasing men for fighting, nor work in a factory, nor become a Land Girl for food production. Rather dodged around until university).

Back to topic, these half baked mercs, isn't this a Putin playbook, as seen in Georgia in 2008, Ukraine in 2014? Though I accept many if not all of these were actual serving Russian special forces, these clowns in Venezuela were 'ex'.
It's a question of where any venn diagram with 'ex' and 'on contract' with the US lies.
Whatever you think of Venezuela's government, they and the region have the weight of history and precedence to be very suspicious.
Hence my comparison to the Bay of Pigs at the start.
Moderate social democrat Arbenz, overthrown by US trained proxies in the 1950's, in Guatemala, leading to a string of regimes that were later described, in relation to native tribes, as 'genocidal'.
This was of course during the McCarthyite hysteria in the US.

I can recommend for a sharp, readable account of US foreign policy in the Cold War in particular, in the Caribbean, Red Heat; Conspiracy, Murder, And The Cold War In The Caribbean. by Alex Von Tunzelmann.
Such well known left wing publications as the Financial Times reviewed it 'A sweeping history of US foreign policy in the Caribbean'. Washington Post 'Suitcases full of cash, torture chambers, gunboats, coups, dictatorships and revolutionary fervor all spill from these pages'.

Dictators like Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, Somoza in Nicaragua, Armas (who overthrew Arbenz) in Guatemala, Jimenez in Venezuela and even 'Papa Doc' Duvalier in Haiti (Mr Tontons Macoutes and Voodoo, perhaps with his family, the most comprehensive looters of the nation, all enjoyed US support).
How many here even knows that the US invaded Dominica in 1965? Operation Powerpack.

On the creeping use of mercenaries in by the US today, that exploded under Bush in Iraq, well draft dodger hawk Cheney and his Halliburton pals.
I can tell you that they do not enjoy a good reputation with US allies, are seen as cowboys, not under military discipline and control, or proper accountability.
If you haven't got the forces for your war, bring back some selective service draft (and see how popular said conflict remains, even with bumper sticker patriots).
 
JJJ
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 9:23 am

PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

Except for maternal mortality, huh? They’re pretty close to the average Latin American country with terrible maternal mortality.


They have half of Brazil's rate and a third of that of the Dominican republic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... lity_ratio

Again, they punch way above their weight.


A few other Latin American counties right around And even ahead of Cuba’s numbers in that list.


Sure. Costa Rica (twice GDP per capita as Cuba), Puerto Rico (4 times), Uruguay (3 times) and Chile (twice again).

Do you understand what punching above their weight means now? Even focusing on a single metric doesn't make much of a dent of their claim to have a system with developed country outcomes on a poor country.
 
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par13del
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 12:07 pm

I need some clarity. We are told that the USA only cares about oil nothing about people. The USA maintains thousands of troops along with ships and planes in the ME to keep oil flowing. The mantra is they invaded Iraq for their oil, all done with men and women serving openly in the US Armed Forces.
Venezuela has oil, very close to the USA, their military is a shadow of what was in Iraq twice, so the reason why the US Marines and Army have not invaded is what?
The international community has not been on the US side for a long time, que Panama and what was done in the America's in the 70's, the 1970's not 17 or 1870's.
If they invade and put a puppet regime in place, would all those who went to the USA return easing the immigration problem?

The dictators who were and are in charge of Venezuela could have done what Castro did in Cuba, seize the organs of wealth and corruption and redistribute them to the masses except they did not do that, the wealthy in Venezuela maintained their wealth and Chavez just used the oil industry, does anyone know why? Why did he not close the wealth gap between rich and poor like Castro did, why did he allow corrupt capitalist to remain and continue to function?
In my opinion, his actions are the reasons why the country so wealthy with oil is in such a condition today. I still need to understand why the USA allows its airlines to fly to Venezuela, allowed them to own oil companies operating in the USA, buy's their oil, they are as communist as Cuba yet they have no embargo.

Pray tell if this is more complicated than the USA is bad and keeping these people poor or the corruption and abuse exist because they fear the USA? How about the migration, has anyone checked to see if the numbers of migrants that Europe has opened their doors to allow a better way of live has surpassed those who flock to the USA from South and Central America? What is Europe doing about the region, obviously proximity is not an issue, the bulk of the region is dominated by European history, Europe and Canada has had no issues conducting trade with Cuba around the USA embargo and promoting Cuba, they are doing the same with Iran, so what are they doing in Venezuela, it can't be the influence of the USA.

Just another view from the ill informed looking to be informed.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 1:24 pm

par13del wrote:
I need some clarity. We are told that the USA only cares about oil nothing about people. The USA maintains thousands of troops along with ships and planes in the ME to keep oil flowing. The mantra is they invaded Iraq for their oil, all done with men and women serving openly in the US Armed Forces.
Venezuela has oil, very close to the USA, their military is a shadow of what was in Iraq twice, so the reason why the US Marines and Army have not invaded is what?
The international community has not been on the US side for a long time, que Panama and what was done in the America's in the 70's, the 1970's not 17 or 1870's.
If they invade and put a puppet regime in place, would all those who went to the USA return easing the immigration problem?

The dictators who were and are in charge of Venezuela could have done what Castro did in Cuba, seize the organs of wealth and corruption and redistribute them to the masses except they did not do that, the wealthy in Venezuela maintained their wealth and Chavez just used the oil industry, does anyone know why? Why did he not close the wealth gap between rich and poor like Castro did, why did he allow corrupt capitalist to remain and continue to function?
In my opinion, his actions are the reasons why the country so wealthy with oil is in such a condition today. I still need to understand why the USA allows its airlines to fly to Venezuela, allowed them to own oil companies operating in the USA, buy's their oil, they are as communist as Cuba yet they have no embargo.

Pray tell if this is more complicated than the USA is bad and keeping these people poor or the corruption and abuse exist because they fear the USA? How about the migration, has anyone checked to see if the numbers of migrants that Europe has opened their doors to allow a better way of live has surpassed those who flock to the USA from South and Central America? What is Europe doing about the region, obviously proximity is not an issue, the bulk of the region is dominated by European history, Europe and Canada has had no issues conducting trade with Cuba around the USA embargo and promoting Cuba, they are doing the same with Iran, so what are they doing in Venezuela, it can't be the influence of the USA.

Just another view from the ill informed looking to be informed.


It’s never been US vs the world. Despite the media saying one thing, the truth is another. The US is very close to a significant portion of the world. However, presidents/PMs like to rattle the sabre from time to time. Media depicts this as conflict between governments. International relations have never been about being nice or friends. It’s about mutual benefit. Most of the world benefits from a strong US economy, that is the byproduct of globalism.

Despite what we see on TV, truth is never that simple. The intermeshing of government relations goes incredibly deep. For example I do media events from time to time. It’s painful to watch what is broadcasted compared to the full interview. The media controls their story but picking out segments to broadcast. It’s the nature of the beast. I have worked with military forces from around the world and we get along well. Even with countries not viewed as close allies.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
johns624
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 2:55 pm

GDB wrote:

On the creeping use of mercenaries in by the US today, that exploded under Bush in Iraq, well draft dodger hawk Cheney and his Halliburton pals.
I can tell you that they do not enjoy a good reputation with US allies, are seen as cowboys, not under military discipline and control, or proper accountability.
If you haven't got the forces for your war, bring back some selective service draft (and see how popular said conflict remains, even with bumper sticker patriots).
We're just following the old mother country...ever heard of Sandline or Aegis Defense Services? Your military keeps a closer watch on ex-members than ours does, which would make one surmise that there was a lot of wink-winking going on with their operations.
 
Concierge
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 6:28 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
The glee that an attempt at freedom failed and the rush to link to the Trump is disturbing though not surprising. I hope one day the people of that country can do what was attempted here.


The Trump State Department has offered multi-million dollar bounties on Maduro and his associates. These aren't freedom fighters so much as characters from a Warren Zevon song.
 
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Aesma
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 7:20 pm

The Trump admin is saying they will do their utmost to secure the release of the mercenaries. Why ? Are they prisonners of war, has Trump declared war on Venezuela without our knowledge ? Or is the US fine with its citizens committing coups elsewhere and ready to help them evade local justice ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 7:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
The Trump admin is saying they will do their utmost to secure the release of the mercenaries. Why ? Are they prisonners of war, has Trump declared war on Venezuela without our knowledge ? Or is the US fine with its citizens committing coups elsewhere and ready to help them evade local justice ?


Read up on Simon Mann, attempted coups and government actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Mann
 
johns624
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm

Aesma wrote:
The Trump admin is saying they will do their utmost to secure the release of the mercenaries. Why ? Are they prisonners of war, has Trump declared war on Venezuela without our knowledge ? Or is the US fine with its citizens committing coups elsewhere and ready to help them evade local justice ?
That's what every government says when their nationals are arrested in another country. Just like France would have done if the Kiwis had apprehended those responsible for the Rainbow Warrior debacle.
 
Concierge
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 9:10 pm

johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The Trump admin is saying they will do their utmost to secure the release of the mercenaries. Why ? Are they prisonners of war, has Trump declared war on Venezuela without our knowledge ? Or is the US fine with its citizens committing coups elsewhere and ready to help them evade local justice ?
That's what every government says when their nationals are arrested in another country. Just like France would have done if the Kiwis had apprehended those responsible for the Rainbow Warrior debacle.


They were caught, tried and jailed. France apologized and paid damages.

A very different situation since the bombers were members of the French Secret Service.


my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/rainbow-warrior
 
johns624
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 9:15 pm

Concierge wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The Trump admin is saying they will do their utmost to secure the release of the mercenaries. Why ? Are they prisonners of war, has Trump declared war on Venezuela without our knowledge ? Or is the US fine with its citizens committing coups elsewhere and ready to help them evade local justice ?
That's what every government says when their nationals are arrested in another country. Just like France would have done if the Kiwis had apprehended those responsible for the Rainbow Warrior debacle.


They were caught, tried and jailed. France apologized and paid damages.

A very different situation since the bombers were members of the French Secret Service.


my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/rainbow-warrior

1. That they were French government agents just makes it worse.
2. They were confined to a French island and freed after 2 years.
3. There was an awful lot of French armtwisting going on there.
 
Concierge
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
Concierge wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That's what every government says when their nationals are arrested in another country. Just like France would have done if the Kiwis had apprehended those responsible for the Rainbow Warrior debacle.


They were caught, tried and jailed. France apologized and paid damages.

A very different situation since the bombers were members of the French Secret Service.


my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/rainbow-warrior

1. That they were French government agents just makes it worse.
2. They were confined to a French island and freed after 2 years.
3. There was an awful lot of French armtwisting going on there.


Not sure of your point. You said they weren't caught. They were.
 
THS214
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 10:11 pm

PPVRA wrote:
See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....


You know that infant mortality rates and maternal (first couple of months) mortality rates go hand in hand.

Medical care in Cuba is second to none. Ask (experts) Americans, Britts, Russians and they all agree. Cuban medical care is as good as it can be. Everything else we can discuss and most of it is not as good as in western world.
 
johns624
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Sun May 10, 2020 10:18 pm

Concierge wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Concierge wrote:

They were caught, tried and jailed. France apologized and paid damages.

A very different situation since the bombers were members of the French Secret Service.


my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/rainbow-warrior

1. That they were French government agents just makes it worse.
2. They were confined to a French island and freed after 2 years.
3. There was an awful lot of French armtwisting going on there.


Not sure of your point. You said they weren't caught. They were.
My mistake. I had thought that they had gotten away and was too lazy to check. My point still stands. They got a "get out of jail free" card.
 
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Aesma
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 1:42 am

They were following orders so it's akin to my first point, Trump having declared war on Venezuela.

Yes of course my government should do something for them, as happens all the time with spies. Here we're talking private citizens committing a crime. Consulary assistance is all they should get.

A better example would have been Bob Denard, a mercenary involved in several coups, with or without government tacit support : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Denard
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PPVRA
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 2:43 am

THS214 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....


You know that infant mortality rates and maternal (first couple of months) mortality rates go hand in hand.

Medical care in Cuba is second to none. Ask (experts) Americans, Britts, Russians and they all agree. Cuban medical care is as good as it can be. Everything else we can discuss and most of it is not as good as in western world.


Obviously not. As I pointed out, their maternal mortality rates are pretty poor.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 2:45 am

JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They have half of Brazil's rate and a third of that of the Dominican republic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... lity_ratio

Again, they punch way above their weight.


A few other Latin American counties right around And even ahead of Cuba’s numbers in that list.


Sure. Costa Rica (twice GDP per capita as Cuba), Puerto Rico (4 times), Uruguay (3 times) and Chile (twice again).

Do you understand what punching above their weight means now? Even focusing on a single metric doesn't make much of a dent of their claim to have a system with developed country outcomes on a poor country.


They punch above their weight in the Olympics, like I mentioned in my first post. But it ain’t because communism simply yields superior athletes, is it?

Authoritarian regimes play the numbers. If Cuba didn’t, their maternal mortality rate would have been as great as their infant mortality rate and it would have been so for a long time.

For that matter, look up the history of Cuba’s maternal mortality. It wasn’t that long ago that their numbers were far worse.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JJJ
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 7:22 am

PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

A few other Latin American counties right around And even ahead of Cuba’s numbers in that list.


Sure. Costa Rica (twice GDP per capita as Cuba), Puerto Rico (4 times), Uruguay (3 times) and Chile (twice again).

Do you understand what punching above their weight means now? Even focusing on a single metric doesn't make much of a dent of their claim to have a system with developed country outcomes on a poor country.


They punch above their weight in the Olympics, like I mentioned in my first post. But it ain’t because communism simply yields superior athletes, is it?

Authoritarian regimes play the numbers. If Cuba didn’t, their maternal mortality rate would have been as great as their infant mortality rate and it would have been so for a long time.

For that matter, look up the history of Cuba’s maternal mortality. It wasn’t that long ago that their numbers were far worse.


What's your problem with accepting that putting additional resources in healthcare results in better outcomes?

It's simple economics. Cuba has made it a priority to get a working healthcare system and spends 11% of their GDP in healthcare. That buys them a place in the top10 if not top5. Dominican Republic spends half that and get proportionally worse indicators.

Of course they wouldn't stay up there if it weren't for tight price controls (starting with staff), but that's only part of the story. Cuba spends a lot more than their neighbours and have the results to show for it.
 
GDB
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 7:31 am

Aesma wrote:
They were following orders so it's akin to my first point, Trump having declared war on Venezuela.

Yes of course my government should do something for them, as happens all the time with spies. Here we're talking private citizens committing a crime. Consulary assistance is all they should get.

A better example would have been Bob Denard, a mercenary involved in several coups, with or without government tacit support : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Denard


The ironically bad thing about him and those Rainbow Warriors clowns, (and while some from the US can cite them, worth reminding that New Zealand were put under great pressure by the US, due to their then anti nuclear stance, somewhat ostracized in fact), is that one job that should have been done, by the French security services that wasn't.


When the Ayotollah Khomeni was in exile in France, allowed by that idiot Giscard d'Estaing, when the Iranian regime fell, which was inevitable but not that him from the middle ages would take over, the DGSE told the French President that they could off him, as you know, they were hardly squeamish about 'wet work'.
Giscard d'Estaing refused, the extreme, political version of Shia Islam took over Iran, the rest is history.
Khomeni returned the favour with a series of terrorist bomb attacks in France.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 8:52 am

Jack Ryan season 2 gone bad? Say it isn't so...
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
PPVRA
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 12:38 pm

JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Sure. Costa Rica (twice GDP per capita as Cuba), Puerto Rico (4 times), Uruguay (3 times) and Chile (twice again).

Do you understand what punching above their weight means now? Even focusing on a single metric doesn't make much of a dent of their claim to have a system with developed country outcomes on a poor country.


They punch above their weight in the Olympics, like I mentioned in my first post. But it ain’t because communism simply yields superior athletes, is it?

Authoritarian regimes play the numbers. If Cuba didn’t, their maternal mortality rate would have been as great as their infant mortality rate and it would have been so for a long time.

For that matter, look up the history of Cuba’s maternal mortality. It wasn’t that long ago that their numbers were far worse.


What's your problem with accepting that putting additional resources in healthcare results in better outcomes?


Oh that’s not the problem at all. I question how you can call an abysmal maternal mortality rate “better outcome”.

We know the Cuban regime loves to throw their infant mortality rates around. They’ve done so for decades and they do it to show off, “hey look how great our healthcare is”.

As for better health outcomes, well, certainly not for mothers and ultimately, who can trust statistics from an authoritarian regime? Especially one that acts in bizarre ways (see Olympic example) to attempt to show off some kind of superior society.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JJJ
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 1:38 pm

PPVRA wrote:
JJJ wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

They punch above their weight in the Olympics, like I mentioned in my first post. But it ain’t because communism simply yields superior athletes, is it?

Authoritarian regimes play the numbers. If Cuba didn’t, their maternal mortality rate would have been as great as their infant mortality rate and it would have been so for a long time.

For that matter, look up the history of Cuba’s maternal mortality. It wasn’t that long ago that their numbers were far worse.


What's your problem with accepting that putting additional resources in healthcare results in better outcomes?


Oh that’s not the problem at all. I question how you can call an abysmal maternal mortality rate “better outcome”.

We know the Cuban regime loves to throw their infant mortality rates around. They’ve done so for decades and they do it to show off, “hey look how great our healthcare is”.

As for better health outcomes, well, certainly not for mothers and ultimately, who can trust statistics from an authoritarian regime? Especially one that acts in bizarre ways (see Olympic example) to attempt to show off some kind of superior society.


Dude, you're balls deep in conspiracy theories. Go to Cuba, then go to Dominican Republic.

Having experienced both (outside of the usual tourist zones) I for sure know in which one of them I'd choose to get sick.
There is a simple economic explanation for Cuba's healthcare outcomes. Invest a lot, enact price controls and you will have a solid safety net for your citizens. There are some very good reasons on why it can't or shouldn't be replicated anywhere else but credit where credit's due.

Back to your "certainly not for mothers" did you read my earlier post? In order to have a better mother mortality rate in Latin America you have to move to countries at least double their GDP per capita, and even then there aren't that many.
 
Derico
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 1:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Let the Venezuelans continue to be punished for their collective stupidity and gullibility for voting in Chavez. They’re not a threat to anyone while poverty and starvation ties them down. Maybe the lesson that Argentinians continue to forget will sink in.


I don't think you, or anyone else on this board, knows much of anything about Argentina or what happens there. I mean, I have seen literally messages and threads about every country in the world last couple of months, but not a single mention of Argentina. Both because most people don't know what it is, and also because things are surprisingly quiet on the pandemic front. They actually have done a pretty good job even though absolutely no one in the media has mentioned it. Or precisely because there is nothing to mention :)
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Mon May 11, 2020 3:10 pm

Have you looked at the economic history of Argentina since the 1920s? It’s not pretty
 
caribny
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 8:16 am

THS214 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....


You know that infant mortality rates and maternal (first couple of months) mortality rates go hand in hand.

Medical care in Cuba is second to none. Ask (experts) Americans, Britts, Russians and they all agree. Cuban medical care is as good as it can be. Everything else we can discuss and most of it is not as good as in western world.



Cuba has a two tiered health care system. One for the connected and the other for everyone else. The connected get some of the best healthcare in the world. For the others its another story. When people visit Cuba they are taken to the best facilities and so leave impressed. After all what does Cuba have to boast about other then its free education/healthcare? Had they been to the others it would be a virtual war zone hospital. Dirty with no medication and staff more interested in stealing what they can to sell outside as that is the only way that they can survive.

UK tells their citizens to ensure that they have health insurance to cover their stay in Cuba in case they fall ill and need to be hospitalized. Someone ignored the advice, falling for the usual propaganda, got stuck in the "poor people's" hospital and became infected with something other than he had when he was admitted. Cuba is also good at covering up its problems, and given that there is no free media, they often get away with it.

If Cuba was so great why do Cubans go to great lengths to flee, now walking through Mexico and risking kidnappings? Haitians, who migrate just about every where, refuse to migrate to Cuba. One can tell how good a nation is by who seeks to live there and who seeks to flee. Within the Caribbean only Haiti is seen as a less attractive destination for migrants.
Last edited by caribny on Tue May 12, 2020 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
cskok8
Posts: 84
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 8:20 am

I think it is mandatory to pay for health insurance when you arrive in Cuba. I know my "worldwide cover" excludes countries like Syria, Afganistan, Iraq, North Korea and Cuba
 
olle
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 9:44 am

PPVRA wrote:
GDB wrote:
Given the sheer ignorance of some on here, small wonder you got in the mire so badly and not just in Latin America, SE Asia too.
Chavez went off the deep end true, however that was after a botched US backed coup.
For people in Chile, Sept 11th is a day when things turned dark and 1000's would die, Sept 11th 1973.
Even moderate social democrats were overthrown and replaced by US backed and (often trained) thugs.
But you got your blowback, the drugs 'war'. I say 'war' because actual wars end.

Cuba went from a Spanish colony to a US one.
Castro, not long after driving out the regime that had turned the island into a Mafia run whorehouse, visited the US and made quite the impression.
Was it inevitable he would become an ally of the USSR?
It didn't look like it in 1959/early 1960, that soon changed.
When he did not want to become another supplicant to US economic interests, I bet the USSR could not believe their luck.

And it's no good getting all huffy and preachy about his regime's descent into dictatorship and human rights abuses, awful as they were, when the US has a long history of propping and/or installing regimes as bad if not far worse.
Just without the education or healthcare.

Small nations being threatened by an aggressive giant to their north, do desperate, even somewhat stupid things.
Again, it's something I just don't think some in the US can get their head around.


Dubious that Cuba has such great healthcare or education. I have a strong suspicion that their numbers are merely propped up, like their or the USSR’s olympics performance. Nothing but a special effort to perform really well on a metric or two, while the rest of the country is something to keep foreign eyes from looking at.

Meanwhile, Chile continues to outperform the region...


Cuba compared to general population in for example Mexico has a health care system that seems to give results.

It might not be on level on top USA or European health care, but for example if you are poor without health care cover in USA perhaps the Cuban is better?
 
JJJ
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 11:09 am

caribny wrote:
THS214 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....


You know that infant mortality rates and maternal (first couple of months) mortality rates go hand in hand.

Medical care in Cuba is second to none. Ask (experts) Americans, Britts, Russians and they all agree. Cuban medical care is as good as it can be. Everything else we can discuss and most of it is not as good as in western world.



Cuba has a two tiered health care system. One for the connected and the other for everyone else. The connected get some of the best healthcare in the world. For the others its another story.


Precisely.

And even the 2nd tier system is better than comparable countries. For starters it covers everyone as opposed to "cover everyone" nominally but then having to bribe your way to actual care.

Oh, and the UK doesn't "ask their citizens to have health insurance when they go to Cuba". Cuba does, it's a requirement for entry, and if you make the mistake to try to get in without insurance you'll be forced to buy some overpriced Asistur coverage at the airport and spend a LONG time in line.
 
GDB
Posts: 13758
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 11:35 am

caribny wrote:
THS214 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
See, for example, how well Cuba does on infant mortality rates. Everybody likes looking at infant mortality rates.

Now, apparently they don’t put anywhere near as much effort on their maternal mortality rates....


You know that infant mortality rates and maternal (first couple of months) mortality rates go hand in hand.

Medical care in Cuba is second to none. Ask (experts) Americans, Britts, Russians and they all agree. Cuban medical care is as good as it can be. Everything else we can discuss and most of it is not as good as in western world.



Cuba has a two tiered health care system. One for the connected and the other for everyone else. The connected get some of the best healthcare in the world. For the others its another story. When people visit Cuba they are taken to the best facilities and so leave impressed. After all what does Cuba have to boast about other then its free education/healthcare? Had they been to the others it would be a virtual war zone hospital. Dirty with no medication and staff more interested in stealing what they can to sell outside as that is the only way that they can survive.

UK tells their citizens to ensure that they have health insurance to cover their stay in Cuba in case they fall ill and need to be hospitalized. Someone ignored the advice, falling for the usual propaganda, got stuck in the "poor people's" hospital and became infected with something other than he had when he was admitted. Cuba is also good at covering up its problems, and given that there is no free media, they often get away with it.

If Cuba was so great why do Cubans go to great lengths to flee, now walking through Mexico and risking kidnappings? Haitians, who migrate just about every where, refuse to migrate to Cuba. One can tell how good a nation is by who seeks to live there and who seeks to flee. Within the Caribbean only Haiti is seen as a less attractive destination for migrants.


How about 60 years of US economic blockade, sabotage, threats against nations who want to do business with them?
Which allows the Cuban regime, who are quite capable of making massive errors themselves, to say 'it's the fault of the Yankees', which to a point, it is.
A siege creates a siege mentality.

However, for all that, they are still standing, that's not an endorsement of the regime itself but there is a natural sympathy with many who do not even approve of many aspects of the regime, who are not sociopaths, unlike much of the US political establishment, with David vs Goliath.
 
PPVRA
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 2:20 pm

GDB wrote:
caribny wrote:
THS214 wrote:

You know that infant mortality rates and maternal (first couple of months) mortality rates go hand in hand.

Medical care in Cuba is second to none. Ask (experts) Americans, Britts, Russians and they all agree. Cuban medical care is as good as it can be. Everything else we can discuss and most of it is not as good as in western world.



Cuba has a two tiered health care system. One for the connected and the other for everyone else. The connected get some of the best healthcare in the world. For the others its another story. When people visit Cuba they are taken to the best facilities and so leave impressed. After all what does Cuba have to boast about other then its free education/healthcare? Had they been to the others it would be a virtual war zone hospital. Dirty with no medication and staff more interested in stealing what they can to sell outside as that is the only way that they can survive.

UK tells their citizens to ensure that they have health insurance to cover their stay in Cuba in case they fall ill and need to be hospitalized. Someone ignored the advice, falling for the usual propaganda, got stuck in the "poor people's" hospital and became infected with something other than he had when he was admitted. Cuba is also good at covering up its problems, and given that there is no free media, they often get away with it.

If Cuba was so great why do Cubans go to great lengths to flee, now walking through Mexico and risking kidnappings? Haitians, who migrate just about every where, refuse to migrate to Cuba. One can tell how good a nation is by who seeks to live there and who seeks to flee. Within the Caribbean only Haiti is seen as a less attractive destination for migrants.


How about 60 years of US economic blockade, sabotage, threats against nations who want to do business with them?
Which allows the Cuban regime, who are quite capable of making massive errors themselves, to say 'it's the fault of the Yankees', which to a point, it is.
A siege creates a siege mentality.

However, for all that, they are still standing, that's not an endorsement of the regime itself but there is a natural sympathy with many who do not even approve of many aspects of the regime, who are not sociopaths, unlike much of the US political establishment, with David vs Goliath.


The Cuban regime is leaching on Venezuela to survive. They’ve always had to leach on someone to survive.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: U.S. Mercenaries Captured in Venezuela After Failed Coup Attempt

Tue May 12, 2020 2:26 pm

The old embargo argument, while a legitimate argument, has always been wrong. And this is plainly obvious to everybody in Latin America now—just look at Venezuela.

Everybody knows Venezuela descended into a economic and democratic disaster by pursuing Cuban-like policies WITHOUT ever being subjected to an embargo (up until only 2 years ago or so).

There is no embargo excuse any longer. It’s clear to all Cuba has failed despite the embargo.

Edit: it’s clear to all including the most ardent, far left political parties—except they will lie to your face that that isn’t the case. But it’s to a point that you know even they know.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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