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pcosta
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How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 10, 2020 6:46 pm

Greetings.
I'm wondering, as I don't see this information in any approach chart: how do pilots know their destination is CAT I, II or III capable.
Where do they look that information up?
For procedures and their aircraft's capabilities I think I know where those may be, but regarding particular airport runways or approaches, I'm baffled.

Cheers!
Costa
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 10, 2020 7:51 pm

pcosta wrote:
Greetings.
I'm wondering, as I don't see this information in any approach chart: how do pilots know their destination is CAT I, II or III capable.
Where do they look that information up?
For procedures and their aircraft's capabilities I think I know where those may be, but regarding particular airport runways or approaches, I'm baffled.

Cheers!
Costa

Your thread has been moved to the Tech/Ops Forum, as this is the more appropriate place for technical questions.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 10, 2020 8:06 pm

Not sure what chart provider you’re using,but minimums are clear on Jepp approach plates. Someone here with the skill will post one, but here’s a US Government CAT II, III chart.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2005/00460I6C2_3.PDF
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 10, 2020 9:01 pm

If there is an ILS approach for a runway at all, that runway has at least CAT 1. This is the plain vanilla ILS capability, so to speak.

If minima beyond CAT 1 are listed on the chart, or if there is a particular CAT 2/CAT 3 chart (this depends on the chart publisher), the approach in question has that capability. However, for an operator to perform CAT 2/CAT 3 approaches requires specific regulator approval, so an operator is not automatically permitted to use CAT 2/CAT 3 minima even if they are on the chart.

In our case, the minima for an approach beyond CAT 1 to a particular runway must be explicitly listed in one of our operations manuals. If there is no listing, we are not authorised to use the CAT 2/CAT 3 minima even if they are listed on the chart.

In the chart below for MDW runway 31C, the CAT I minima are 863ft altitude and 4000 feet visibility, listed as "863/40" in the box for ILS 31C at the right bottom.

Image
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
strfyr51
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 10, 2020 9:17 pm

pcosta wrote:
Greetings.
I'm wondering, as I don't see this information in any approach chart: how do pilots know their destination is CAT I, II or III capable.
Where do they look that information up?
For procedures and their aircraft's capabilities I think I know where those may be, but regarding particular airport runways or approaches, I'm baffled.

Cheers!
Costa

wouldn't the Jeppsen approach plates tell you whether the Destination is CAT1 thru 3?
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 10, 2020 11:24 pm

Starlionblue just answered that question. If there is a CATII/CATIII approach it will be on the chart or on a chart by itself.
 
Woodreau
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Mon May 11, 2020 12:33 am

There will be a special Cat 2/3 chart but we have to compare the minimums on the cat2/3 chart and compare our op specs authorized minimums and use the most conservative minimums. So it’s not just look at the minimums on the chart and use those numbers like it is for cat 1 ILSs.

Linked is a cat 2/3 chart for ORD Rwy 10C

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2005/00166I10CC2_3.PDF
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
gloom
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Mon May 11, 2020 5:03 am

Yeah, Europe's quite similar (and other continents likely so).
See the Cat2/3 ILS for Warsaw (EPWA) - copy from local simulation site, since AIP is login protected; otherwise, accurate and up to date:
https://www.pl-vacc.org.pl/files/maps/a ... RWY_33.pdf

Cheers,
Adam
 
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zeke
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Mon May 11, 2020 8:00 am

pcosta wrote:
Greetings.
I'm wondering, as I don't see this information in any approach chart: how do pilots know their destination is CAT I, II or III capable.
Where do they look that information up?
For procedures and their aircraft's capabilities I think I know where those may be, but regarding particular airport runways or approaches, I'm baffled.

Cheers!
Costa


The operator would be specifically approved By the regulator for each airport, it would be documented.

Just because there is a Cat 3 chart, does not mean every aircraft can do that.
The aircraft needs to be capable of Cat 3 (and in some states current)
The crew needs to be trained and current
The operator needs to be approved
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Mon May 11, 2020 1:36 pm

We had a more restrictive policy on CATIII approaches in that at anytime from the "feather" inbound if the viz went below CATIII mins we had to make a missed approach. I asked about it and was told they decided if it were below mins you might be hard pressed to taxi to the gate so just miss.
 
N47
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Wed May 13, 2020 3:40 am

I would also add that when performing CAT II/III approaches the ground equipment (LOC in particular) are protected to higher degree (no objects allowed near the LOC).

Its always a good idea to advise the tower when performing CAT II/III approaches above minimums (for currency or what have you) as the ILS may be good for CAT I but not II/III. If i recall correctly here in the us it is announced on the ATIS if CAT II/III operations are in place (please correct me if i am wrong on this).

So in addition to crew & equipment requirements the conditions on the ground also need to be optimal to support CAT II/III operations.

Here is what can happen when ILS systems are not adequately protected:

https://youtu.be/0rn-iI7wX-Y

https://youtu.be/yYiSrTUyXbo
 
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TOGA10
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Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Wed May 13, 2020 8:44 am

N47 wrote:
Its always a good idea to advise the tower when performing CAT II/III approaches above minimums (for currency or what have you) as the ILS may be good for CAT I but not II/III. If i recall correctly here in the us it is announced on the ATIS if CAT II/III operations are in place (please correct me if i am wrong on this).

Same here in Europe. The ATIS will announce when the airport is in Low Visibility Procedures are in place, which in turn tells the pilots that you can shoot a CAT II/III approach (whichever you are allowed to do by your operator). That way, pilots know that all the precautions are in place.
I wanna go back upstairs!
 
pcosta
Topic Author
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 6:37 pm

Re: How do I know if I can use CAT I, II, III in particular airport

Sun May 17, 2020 2:50 pm

Cheers for all replies, it's much clearer now.
Thanks as well for the various references.

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