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HNLSLCPDX
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Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:53 am

Is it time for Delta to look into either leaving SkyTeam, drop and/or add new JV partners and overall new partners? Delta’s current partners of Aeroméxico, Virgin Atlantic, LATAM, and Virgin Australia are not in the best financial situations. And their CEO Ed Bastian has said that SkyTeam has not fulfilled its purpose. With Delta arguably offering the best hard and soft product, and best customer service of the US3, I always thought that DL should have better partners more inline with their level of service and product. I know DL’s hubs are not in the largest cities or most important and popular cities but I think that could be worked out. Considering LATAM left OneWorld and the partnership with AA to join DL, I don’t think it’s out of the possibility of DL or others airlines to do the same with their current partners to leave for better ones. Curious to what others opinions and thoughts are.

In my opinion (and maybe a pipe dream) an ideal new alliance or JV lineup for Delta would include Aeroméxico, LATAM, Air Canada, Lufthansa (which would probably include all of the Lufthansa group airlines), Turkish, ANA, Qantas, Singapore, and China Eastern.
 
NW
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:11 am

I don't think any carrier is in a good financial position at this time. Yes, others are better than some but I think all are having their issues, including Delta. SkyTeam doesn't provide a lot of value and Delta has already gone beyond SkyTeam with joint ventures and alliances outside of SkyTeam. I don't see Delta leaving KLM or Air France for Lufthansa, which is the only way I see them forming an alliance or joint venture with Lufthansa. And United would have a big say in that too. Before covid, the joint venture with KLM was very profitable for Delta and AMS is a great HUB for the joint venture. I don't see Delta wanting to change this and I think it's more important than ever during a downturn. The only thing I ever see breaking up the Delta KLM/Air France alliance is a mega merger between Delta and AA /UA or KL/AF between one of of the big EU carriers.

It will be interesting to see if all of the current Delta partners survive, I think all of them will in some fashion, or if they provide the network benefit they did prior to covid. The only carrier I see possibly not providing the benefit is Virgin Australia, depending on what type of carrier they transition to. But even if Virgin is lost Qantas is not going to leave AA for Delta unless AA folds in my opinion.
Last edited by NW on Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:11 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:

In my opinion (and maybe a pipe dream) an ideal new alliance or JV lineup for Delta would include Aeroméxico, LATAM, Air Canada, Lufthansa (which would probably include all of the Lufthansa group airlines), Turkish, ANA, Qantas, Singapore, and China Eastern.


Sorry to say, keep dreaming.

American and Qantas are secured because their JV was approved; AA lost LATAM to Delta because their JV was rejected by the Chilean Supreme Court.

United has the JV with ANA and the TATL JV with Lufthansa/Air Canada.

Other than that, I'd say it's Delta's turn to respond. AA has been aggressive in seeking new partners in the past year with Alaska, Qatar, GOL, and potentially Philippine Airlines.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:20 am

If the VA partnership falls apart or if DL sees that they no longer come out if this COVID crisis the airline they need them to be, I would love to see DL go after Air New Zealand.
 
Antarius
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:22 am

Sounds like a PR piece. Why would half of Star Alliance leave for DL? What exactly is in it for them?
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Antarius
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:25 am

Ishrion wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:

In my opinion (and maybe a pipe dream) an ideal new alliance or JV lineup for Delta would include Aeroméxico, LATAM, Air Canada, Lufthansa (which would probably include all of the Lufthansa group airlines), Turkish, ANA, Qantas, Singapore, and China Eastern.


Sorry to say, keep dreaming.

American and Qantas are secured because their JV was approved; AA lost LATAM to Delta because their JV was rejected by the Chilean Supreme Court.

United has the JV with ANA and the TATL JV with Lufthansa/Air Canada.

Other than that, I'd say it's Delta's turn to respond. AA has been aggressive in seeking new partners in the past year with Alaska, Qatar, GOL, and potentially Philippine Airlines.


DL had pocket aces until they suddenly didn't. They've definitely been the successful trend setter, moving the chess pieces and making others respond. But, make too many moves and when the music stops, you can be left without a chair too.
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usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:36 am

The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:48 am

usflyer msp wrote:
The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.


Dallas is arguable. In terms of foreign carriers, it’s nothing compared to those 4 other cities.

For what it’s worth, AA somewhat has the same issue with hubs in PHX, PHL, and CLT, which see little foreign airlines.

PHL is AA’s primary TATL hub, CLT is AA’s second largest hub, but both see few foreign carriers.
 
xiaotung
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:58 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
If the VA partnership falls apart or if DL sees that they no longer come out if this COVID crisis the airline they need them to be, I would love to see DL go after Air New Zealand.


If VA no longer flies to LAX and the DL JV falls apart, they could still partner for domestic feeder purpose but it's not as near important as before.

NZ won't talk to DL being in a very cozy relationship with UA.
 
MLIAA
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:38 am

Ishrion wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.


Dallas is arguable. In terms of foreign carriers, it’s nothing compared to those 4 other cities.

For what it’s worth, AA somewhat has the same issue with hubs in PHX, PHL, and CLT, which see little foreign airlines.

PHL is AA’s primary TATL hub, CLT is AA’s second largest hub, but both see few foreign carriers.


Dallas-Fort Worth is the 4th largest metro in the US and a gigantic economic powerhouse. DFW has seen non-AA aligned carriers in the past; Air France, Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa, and Icelandair, to name a few.

The DFW area is not on the same level as a Twin Cities or a Salt Lake, or a Charlotte or Phoenix, to your second point. DFW is the real deal.
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ScottB
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:55 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Is it time for Delta to look into either leaving SkyTeam, drop and/or add new JV partners and overall new partners? Delta’s current partners of Aeroméxico, Virgin Atlantic, LATAM, and Virgin Australia are not in the best financial situations.


So you realize that pretty much all airlines are in bad financial situations right now, right? Lufthansa needed a 9 billion euro bailout from the German government. Air Canada is basically worthless as a partner until the border reopens to non-essential travel. Avianca filed for Chapter 11 reorganization a couple of weeks before LATAM.

The relationship with AF/KL will continue -- I find it incredibly unlikely that either the French or Dutch government would allow its respective national carrier to fail. In ordinary times, their economies require vibrant global travel networks from Paris and Amsterdam. And AF/KL has been a valuable partner for DL.

The issue with the alliances is that their members can range from being besties (like DL & AF/KL) to frenemies (like DL and KE before their recent rapprochement). You don't really want to hand over your good customers to a "partner" which is trying to undermine your business. If you've got a Diamond Medallion booking a business class ticket from NYC to DEL, you probably want them connecting over AMS or CDG where you share in the profits (and control pricing/inventory) via JV rather than SU where you might get some token consideration for miles.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:55 am

MLIAA wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.


Dallas is arguable. In terms of foreign carriers, it’s nothing compared to those 4 other cities.

For what it’s worth, AA somewhat has the same issue with hubs in PHX, PHL, and CLT, which see little foreign airlines.

PHL is AA’s primary TATL hub, CLT is AA’s second largest hub, but both see few foreign carriers.


The DFW area is not on the same level as a Twin Cities or a Salt Lake, or a Charlotte or Phoenix, to your second point. DFW is the real deal.


I was comparing the amount of foreign carriers at SLC/MSP/DTW to the levels of PHL/CLT/PHX.

MLIAA wrote:

Dallas-Fort Worth is the 4th largest metro in the US and a gigantic economic powerhouse. DFW has seen non-AA aligned carriers in the past; Air France, Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa, and Icelandair, to name a few.


When comparing Dallas to Washington, Miami, Chicago, and San Francisco in terms of foreign carriers, it’s nothing.

For example, look at IAD, whose main airline is United.

You see non-UA partners flying there such as Aeroflot, Air France, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Iberia, Icelandair, KLM, Qatar Airways, Royal Air Maroc, Saudia, and more.

Look at Miami, whose main airline is AA.

You see non-AA partners flying there such as Aeroflot, Aerolíneas Argentinas, Air Europa, Air France, Alitalia, Avianca, Copa, Corsair, Eurowings, KLM, Lufthansa, Swiss, TAP Portugal, and many more.

The same could be said for Chicago and SFO. Both have dozens of foreign carriers flying alongside their hub airlines.

...While DFW has little foreign carriers compared to those four cities, whether they’re partnered with AA or not.
 
ScottB
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:14 am

MLIAA wrote:
Dallas-Fort Worth is the 4th largest metro in the US and a gigantic economic powerhouse. DFW has seen non-AA aligned carriers in the past; Air France, Emirates, KLM, Lufthansa, and Icelandair, to name a few.


It's the 4th largest MSA, but it is the 7th largest CSA -- and CSA maps more closely to the region from which a primary international airport would draw travelers. The MSA for Boston, for example, doesn't even include Worcester County, MA, even though the vast majority of travelers to and from there are using BOS. With limited international service from PVD (Providence is in a separate MSA which includes part of the South Coast of Massachusetts) most international travelers to/from that area are also using BOS.

The Washington MSA doesn't include Baltimore and it's pretty clear that long-haul international service from the Washington-Baltimore region is focused at IAD. Ditto for the San Francisco MSA not including Santa Clara County, even though one of UA's key customers at SFO (Apple) is located in Santa Clara County.

By CSA ranking, Dallas-Fort Worth drops below Washington-Baltimore, the SF Bay Area, and Boston-Worcester-Providence (Manchester & Southern NH also fall in there).
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:39 am

usflyer msp wrote:
The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.

Why do you posit that to be a bad thing?

For one, you appear to be thinking only in a single dimension: "feed"... while ignoring significant additional factors that can affect the scope of cooperative agreements:
most notably labor, but also p.o.s., effect on existing joint ventures, etc.

It's also odd that you ignore DL's hubs in places like JFK, LAX, SEA, etc; where plenty of foreign carriers *do* choose to serve.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:07 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
If the VA partnership falls apart or if DL sees that they no longer come out if this COVID crisis the airline they need them to be, I would love to see DL go after Air New Zealand.

When UA has a JV with NZ?

I'll hold short of saying "its not going to happen" but it is highly unlikely that they form anything beyond a codeshare.

Michael
 
jfk777
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:31 am

Delta has great partners with Air France & KLM, Amsterdam and CDG are the best hubs in Europe. Unfortunately the Virus has made their Latin American partners look weak, AeroMex & Latam have been badly affected by the current situation.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:10 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.

Why do you posit that to be a bad thing?

For one, you appear to be thinking only in a single dimension: "feed"... while ignoring significant additional factors that can affect the scope of cooperative agreements:
most notably labor, but also p.o.s., effect on existing joint ventures, etc.

It's also odd that you ignore DL's hubs in places like JFK, LAX, SEA, etc; where plenty of foreign carriers *do* choose to serve.


JFK, LAX, SEA are relatively small domestic hubs. ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC make up the bulk of Delta's domestic network. JFK, LAX and SEA added together are a little bigger than DTW by itself.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:55 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
The issue is Delta's major hubs are just not that attractive for international carriers. Most foreign carriers would not be flying to ATL and especially DTW, MSP, and SLC without the Delta hub. AA and UA have the advantage of having their primary hubs in cities like Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Washington and Miami that the foreign carriers would be flying to anyway.

Why do you posit that to be a bad thing?

For one, you appear to be thinking only in a single dimension: "feed"... while ignoring significant additional factors that can affect the scope of cooperative agreements:
most notably labor, but also p.o.s., effect on existing joint ventures, etc.

It's also odd that you ignore DL's hubs in places like JFK, LAX, SEA, etc; where plenty of foreign carriers *do* choose to serve.


JFK, LAX, SEA are relatively small domestic hubs. ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC make up the bulk of Delta's domestic network. JFK, LAX and SEA added together are a little bigger than DTW by itself.


So, you’re using them as an example of places that international travelers don’t want to go but then highlighting that they’re small domestic hubs? That doesn’t make any sense. Those cities role as “small” domestic hubs, which isn’t even true, doesn’t provide much benefit to international carriers. People in China flying to LA via DL don’t care if DL doesn’t serve DSM nonstop from LA, they care if they fly to LA. DL’s hubs at JFK, LAX, and SEA are large by any metric, yes, they don’t support the feed that ATL or the other hubs do; but they don’t have to. Also, your evidence to support your claim is also weak, as DL’s JFK is larger than UA’s IAD hub which you mentioned; SFO also isn’t a massive domestic operation. So your point has major weaknesses with many of your assertions.

Jeremy
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:27 pm

SESGDL wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Why do you posit that to be a bad thing?

For one, you appear to be thinking only in a single dimension: "feed"... while ignoring significant additional factors that can affect the scope of cooperative agreements:
most notably labor, but also p.o.s., effect on existing joint ventures, etc.

It's also odd that you ignore DL's hubs in places like JFK, LAX, SEA, etc; where plenty of foreign carriers *do* choose to serve.


JFK, LAX, SEA are relatively small domestic hubs. ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC make up the bulk of Delta's domestic network. JFK, LAX and SEA added together are a little bigger than DTW by itself.


So, you’re using them as an example of places that international travelers don’t want to go but then highlighting that they’re small domestic hubs? That doesn’t make any sense. Those cities role as “small” domestic hubs, which isn’t even true, doesn’t provide much benefit to international carriers. People in China flying to LA via DL don’t care if DL doesn’t serve DSM nonstop from LA, they care if they fly to LA. DL’s hubs at JFK, LAX, and SEA are large by any metric, yes, they don’t support the feed that ATL or the other hubs do; but they don’t have to. Also, your evidence to support your claim is also weak, as DL’s JFK is larger than UA’s IAD hub which you mentioned; SFO also isn’t a massive domestic operation. So your point has major weaknesses with many of your assertions.

Jeremy


You are missing my point. Foreign carriers can fly to LAX, SEA, JFK, SFO on their own, no feed needed. What they need from from a US partner is access to the interior US markets which DL's coastal hubs don't really provide much of. If they want to access DL's domestic network they have to run largely duplicative connection-oriented frequencies to ATL, DTW, MSP which alot of carriers are just not interested in. This is why DL has to largely throw money at foreign carriers to get partners. You could not tell me someone like AM would not be better of in an alliance with a US hubs in LAX, PHX, DFW, ORD, MIA and JFK (kind of), a European hub in MAD, and an Asia hub in TYO.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:18 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
You are missing my point. Foreign carriers can fly to LAX, SEA, JFK, SFO on their own, no feed needed. What they need from from a US partner is access to the interior US markets which DL's coastal hubs don't really provide much of.

And that, is what's called: nonfactual.

Please list which US domestic markets of even remote interest to foreign carriers, you believe cannot be served 1stop or less by the combination of JFK+ATL+DTW+LAX+SEA?

Because if you knew anything about DL's international strategy, you'd realize that those are their "cornerstones" for international connections: [email protected]/DTW, metal+partners at JFK/LAX/SEA.


And why the cherrypicking, without any apparent rhyme nor reason? No matter how "superior" one arbitrarily believes any airline's set of hubs to be, it still will have significant gaps in major markets:

    E.g. how is DL being absent in the Chicago-London market any different than United being absent in, say, Miami-London?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:56 pm

I like a lot of DL partner airlines

Asia - Korean, several chinese carriers, Vietnam, Garuda and China airlines. The latter 3 are underrated carriers -Hole probably an India Partner and would love to see Singapore as a partner
Latin America - have the best partners, the whole region in trouble
Europe - Their partners are as good as any other European partners
Africa - Kenya is fine, but probably could use one more, not much to choose from
Middle East - love to see Emirates, but doubt it, MEA and Saudia don't offer much
 
n9801f
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:08 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Is it time for Delta to look into either leaving SkyTeam, drop and/or add new JV partners and overall new partners? Delta’s current partners of Aeroméxico, Virgin Atlantic, LATAM, and Virgin Australia are not in the best financial situations. And their CEO Ed Bastian has said that SkyTeam has not fulfilled its purpose. With Delta arguably offering the best hard and soft product, and best customer service of the US3, I always thought that DL should have better partners more inline with their level of service and product. I know DL’s hubs are not in the largest cities or most important and popular cities but I think that could be worked out. Considering LATAM left OneWorld and the partnership with AA to join DL, I don’t think it’s out of the possibility of DL or others airlines to do the same with their current partners to leave for better ones. Curious to what others opinions and thoughts are.

In my opinion (and maybe a pipe dream) an ideal new alliance or JV lineup for Delta would include Aeroméxico, LATAM, Air Canada, Lufthansa (which would probably include all of the Lufthansa group airlines), Turkish, ANA, Qantas, Singapore, and China Eastern.


The question seems presumptuous.
Delta isn't such a pretty date date itself right now, after all.
Network fit is critical - connectivity potential and ability to drive sales share in big revenue markets.
Only if network fit is good does it make sense to talk about product compatibility.
And minor differences in product will be immaterial compared to differences in network fit.
The whole reason Delta pursued equity JV's was its weaker network made it less attractive to potential partners than AA/UA.
 
onwFan
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:22 pm

n9801f wrote:
Network fit is critical - connectivity potential and ability to drive sales share in big revenue markets.
The whole reason Delta pursued equity JV's was its weaker network made it less attractive to potential partners than AA/UA.

You hit the nail on the head. And they keep doing it again and again - stay tuned for an even bigger series of misadventures at LATAM, and especially WestJet - they made the very blunder that AS didn't make...
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:08 pm

n9801f wrote:
HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Is it time for Delta to look into either leaving SkyTeam, drop and/or add new JV partners and overall new partners? Delta’s current partners of Aeroméxico, Virgin Atlantic, LATAM, and Virgin Australia are not in the best financial situations. And their CEO Ed Bastian has said that SkyTeam has not fulfilled its purpose. With Delta arguably offering the best hard and soft product, and best customer service of the US3, I always thought that DL should have better partners more inline with their level of service and product. I know DL’s hubs are not in the largest cities or most important and popular cities but I think that could be worked out. Considering LATAM left OneWorld and the partnership with AA to join DL, I don’t think it’s out of the possibility of DL or others airlines to do the same with their current partners to leave for better ones. Curious to what others opinions and thoughts are.

In my opinion (and maybe a pipe dream) an ideal new alliance or JV lineup for Delta would include Aeroméxico, LATAM, Air Canada, Lufthansa (which would probably include all of the Lufthansa group airlines), Turkish, ANA, Qantas, Singapore, and China Eastern.


The question seems presumptuous.
Delta isn't such a pretty date date itself right now, after all.
Network fit is critical - connectivity potential and ability to drive sales share in big revenue markets.
Only if network fit is good does it make sense to talk about product compatibility.
And minor differences in product will be immaterial compared to differences in network fit.
The whole reason Delta pursued equity JV's was its weaker network made it less attractive to potential partners than AA/UA.


When DL was looking for partners most of the “good” ones were already taken. In order to gain access to markets/regions they didn’t already serve they had to go with the best they had to choose from. While the trend right now is to lament on how these investments have soured its important to note why they have. It’s not because they are terrible airlines but because the demand across the globe has radically declined in a very short period. However if the airlines/JV survive then DL still gets access to markets/regions for relatively little investment. (Yes DL would have much preferred to not lose their cash investment but if the JV remains all is not lost)
 
jayunited
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:51 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Is it time for Delta to look into either leaving SkyTeam, drop and/or add new JV partners and overall new partners? Delta’s current partners of Aeroméxico, Virgin Atlantic, LATAM, and Virgin Australia are not in the best financial situations. And their CEO Ed Bastian has said that SkyTeam has not fulfilled its purpose. With Delta arguably offering the best hard and soft product, and best customer service of the US3, I always thought that DL should have better partners more inline with their level of service and product. I know DL’s hubs are not in the largest cities or most important and popular cities but I think that could be worked out. Considering LATAM left OneWorld and the partnership with AA to join DL, I don’t think it’s out of the possibility of DL or others airlines to do the same with their current partners to leave for better ones. Curious to what others opinions and thoughts are.

In my opinion (and maybe a pipe dream) an ideal new alliance or JV lineup for Delta would include Aeroméxico, LATAM, Air Canada, Lufthansa (which would probably include all of the Lufthansa group airlines), Turkish, ANA, Qantas, Singapore, and China Eastern.



I have to stop myself from laughing because what you failed to mention was DL pursued all those airlines that you said are not in the best financial situation and more. Granted when DL made these moves no one was thinking of coronavirus and Delta was the most profitable airline of the US3 with money to spare. LATAM didn't just leave AA for no reason, they left AA and OneWorld because Delta showed them the money in a deal worth $1.9 billion dollars. Also Delta invested over a combined billion dollars in both Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico. Then lets not forget about GOL the partner Delta dropped to pursue LATAM but the problem is just a few years earlier Delta volunteered to become the guarantor for a $300 million dollar loan for GOL. A few months ago it was revealed GOL hasn't made a payment and the entire $300 million is due this August. Now Delta is on the hook and they are now forced to negotiate some type of settlement that keeps them from having to pay $300 million dollars. GOL is now an American Airlines partner and while GOL is no LATAM, it didn't cost AA a dime to partner up with them.

Looking at your pipe dream list my question is what does Delta have to offer NH, AC and LH that would make them abandon their JV with UA and perhaps leave STAR? While UA and SQ have a strained relationship it is my understanding that SQ gets along quite well with quite a few STAR partners. And again what can DL offer SQ that they haven't achieve on their own already here in the US keeping in mind they get no help at all from UA and yet prior to COVID they operated numerous flights from LAX, SFO, SEA, IAH, JFK and EWR. To be honest I think Delta is stuck with the team they have and just hope for the best because they no longer have the money to help their struggling partners. Going forward I think Delta and airlines in general will take a much different approach I think the days of DL throwing money at other airlines in a effort to build partnerships is over.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:49 pm

Delta was last to the game when the three major alliances were being formed. Delta was a very different airline in 1997 when Star Alliance was formed. Those airlines left, including Delta, had been picked over twice. Would Delta prefer partners that would be a better strategic and more profitable fit? Of course. However, no airline in the other two alliances or who have JV partners are going to leave unless they can make *more money*. And currently Delta is not in a situation to throw money around.

So to get to an answer to your question, you would first have to ask, “Which airlines believe they could make more money by partnering with Delta than their current partner airlines?” And, “Does Delta believe they could make more money with any of the airlines on that list than with their current airline partners?”

You may want to go to the dance with the pretty girl, but if you ain’t got it going on and daddy ain’t got a whole lotta money, she ain’t going with YOU.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:20 pm

onwFan wrote:
n9801f wrote:
Network fit is critical - connectivity potential and ability to drive sales share in big revenue markets.
The whole reason Delta pursued equity JV's was its weaker network made it less attractive to potential partners than AA/UA.

You hit the nail on the head. And they keep doing it again and again - stay tuned for an even bigger series of misadventures at LATAM, and especially WestJet - they made the very blunder that AS didn't make...


DL has stronger hubs for a partner than AA and AS for sure. ATL, JFK, LAX, SEA, BOS in addition to 3 primarily domestic hubs, MSP, DTW and SLC.

Let's see AA has nothing at JFK, PHL, CLT and DFW(all cities foreign carriers don't even know where they are) and a week position at ORD. So that leaves AA with LAX and MIA. I'll take DL there.

AS has let's see, oh yeah nothing but SEA anymore as they couldn't take on the big boys in CA and oh who is the dominant international carrier there, DL.

UA has the best hubs for foreign alliances, in ORD, EWR, IAD, LAX, and SFO. IAH/DEN more domestic.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:25 pm

Biophobe99 wrote:
It’s not because they are terrible airlines but because the demand across the globe has radically declined in a very short period.


That is very revisionist history.
Last profitable year

JV Partner
VS = 2017
AM= 2016
VA = 2012
AF/KL = 2019 (lost money in 2018 though)
KE = 2016
AZ = a very long time ago

I'm not including WS and LA since the JV's have not been approved or implemented yet.

The JV partners' financial distress is due to more than just the current drop in demand.
 
kavok
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:33 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
It’s not because they are terrible airlines but because the demand across the globe has radically declined in a very short period.


That is very revisionist history.
Last profitable year

JV Partner
VS = 2017
AM= 2016
VA = 2012
AF/KL = 2019 (lost money in 2018 though)
KE = 2016
AZ = a very long time ago

I'm not including WS and LA since the JV's have not been approved or implemented yet.

The JV partners' financial distress is due to more than just the current drop in demand.


You could make a very similar list for many One World members. And while Star is probably the best collection of financially healthy airlines, even that alliance has/had a few members struggle. I mean, I guess you can congratulate United for getting into Star ahead of DL and AA, but that being said.., what are AA and DL exactly supposed to do given that fact? There isn’t a better alternative out there.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:07 am

Let's see OW partners that have gone bankrupt and out of business, Mexicana and Malev and AirBerlin. To date no SkyTeam members have gone out of business that were not merged.
 
superjeff
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:15 am

I find this thread interesting. The average passenger doesn't care if he connects at JFK, PHL, LAX, SFO, or anywhere else. He's looking for the best connection times and the best fares. DFW doesn't have the volume of international carriers that, say, ORD does, because it doesn't need to. AA has a fortress operation, and JV's with BA (transAtlantic) and JL (transPacific), plus Qatar, and even a one-way codeshare from KE. The same reason that PHL has more AA and relatively little international carriers. Or why DEN is controlled by UA with limited international service. I agree that POS is the driving factor for international carriers; a BA customer might connect at PHL, ORD, or DFW to AA, but a LH passenger probably not when they can be routed over a UA hub.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:16 am

kavok wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
It’s not because they are terrible airlines but because the demand across the globe has radically declined in a very short period.


That is very revisionist history.
Last profitable year

JV Partner
VS = 2017
AM= 2016
VA = 2012
AF/KL = 2019 (lost money in 2018 though)
KE = 2016
AZ = a very long time ago

I'm not including WS and LA since the JV's have not been approved or implemented yet.

The JV partners' financial distress is due to more than just the current drop in demand.


You could make a very similar list for many One World members. And while Star is probably the best collection of financially healthy airlines, even that alliance has/had a few members struggle. I mean, I guess you can congratulate United for getting into Star ahead of DL and AA, but that being said.., what are AA and DL exactly supposed to do given that fact? There isn’t a better alternative out there.


Same data for AA JV partners:
QF =profitable since 2015
IAG = profitable since 2013
AY = profitable since 2015
JL = profitable since 2012

Delta's less desirable network brought it less desirable, financially weaker partners that are mainly partnering with DL due money infusions or a lack of other options.
 
onwFan
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:30 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
DL has stronger hubs for a partner than AA and AS for sure. ATL, JFK, LAX, SEA, BOS in addition to 3 primarily domestic hubs, MSP, DTW and SLC.

JFK and LAX are pretty much everyone's hubs. And to the crux of this thread, most foreign carrier partners will already be flying to JFK and LAX irrespective of DL having a hub there, and they all want to make money on the O/D there. SEA and BOS are barely budding hubs, and everything seems to suggest that they are not even profitable yet. The truth is that DL has seriously been attempting to bolster SEA & BOS to compensate for their lack of presence in bigger premium markets, which is where the business demand is. We are still to see how COVID impacts BOS & SEA. And by the way, ATL & DTW are what they are only because DL has a hub there.

bfitzflyer wrote:
Let's see AA has nothing at JFK, PHL, CLT and DFW(all cities foreign carriers don't even know where they are) and a week position at ORD. So that leaves AA with LAX and MIA. I'll take DL there.

AA has nothing at PHL & DFW? Not have a clue what you mean, but whatever... ORD may not have become as big of a hub as UA's, but AA's partners (BA, JL, CX, QR, RJ, FY) have all had great success at ORD with AA's feed. By the way, I would really love to know which are those foreign carriers who have heard about Atlanta, Minneapolis, Detroit and Salt Lake City before Dallas & Philly.

bfitzflyer wrote:
AS has let's see, oh yeah nothing but SEA anymore as they couldn't take on the big boys in CA and oh who is the dominant international carrier there, DL.

That's brand new information. The last time I heard, AS had double the market share of DL.

bfitzflyer wrote:
UA has the best hubs for foreign alliances, in ORD, EWR, IAD, LAX, and SFO. IAH/DEN more domestic.

No contesting there.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:05 am

onwFan wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
DL has stronger hubs for a partner than AA and AS for sure. ATL, JFK, LAX, SEA, BOS in addition to 3 primarily domestic hubs, MSP, DTW and SLC.

JFK and LAX are pretty much everyone's hubs. And to the crux of this thread, most foreign carrier partners will already be flying to JFK and LAX irrespective of DL having a hub there, and they all want to make money on the O/D there. SEA and BOS are barely budding hubs, and everything seems to suggest that they are not even profitable yet. The truth is that DL has seriously been attempting to bolster SEA & BOS to compensate for their lack of presence in bigger premium markets, which is where the business demand is. We are still to see how COVID impacts BOS & SEA. And by the way, ATL & DTW are what they are only because DL has a hub there.

bfitzflyer wrote:
Let's see AA has nothing at JFK, PHL, CLT and DFW(all cities foreign carriers don't even know where they are) and a week position at ORD. So that leaves AA with LAX and MIA. I'll take DL there.

AA has nothing at PHL & DFW? Not have a clue what you mean, but whatever... ORD may not have become as big of a hub as UA's, but AA's partners (BA, JL, CX, QR, RJ, FY) have all had great success at ORD with AA's feed. By the way, I would really love to know which are those foreign carriers who have heard about Atlanta, Minneapolis, Detroit and Salt Lake City before Dallas & Philly.

bfitzflyer wrote:
AS has let's see, oh yeah nothing but SEA anymore as they couldn't take on the big boys in CA and oh who is the dominant international carrier there, DL.

That's brand new information. The last time I heard, AS had double the market share of DL.

bfitzflyer wrote:
UA has the best hubs for foreign alliances, in ORD, EWR, IAD, LAX, and SFO. IAH/DEN more domestic.

No contesting there.


How is JFK a hub for AA, down to what 50 flights pre covid.. PHL and DFW are huge for AA, just insignificant to international travelers. ATL world's largest airport, enough said. MSP, DTW and SLC are domestic hubs as I stated. SEA, let's see how many overseas flights does AS have, oh, that would be zero. Glad we agree on UA
 
avek00
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:14 am

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Is it time for Delta to look into either leaving SkyTeam, drop and/or add new JV partners and overall new partners?


Absolutely not. There would be zero near-term return on the substantial financial investments required for entering/exiting global alliances and establishing joint ventures. If Delta believes SkyTeam has not served its needs very well, then the carrier should target some of its very limited spending ability to make it work.
Live life to the fullest.
 
braniff2hav
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:26 am

Delta will never let Virgin Atlantic fail. It is far too significant of an investment and affords Delta much value with their LHR base and resources. Will there be changes, sure. But I would look for VS to be around for a long time after they get over this hump.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:39 am

braniff2hav wrote:
Delta will never let Virgin Atlantic fail. It is far too significant of an investment and affords Delta much value with their LHR base and resources. Will there be changes, sure. But I would look for VS to be around for a long time after they get over this hump.


DL does not have a choice in the matter. VS needs cash desperately and DL cannot give it to them.
 
Antarius
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:59 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
onwFan wrote:
n9801f wrote:
Network fit is critical - connectivity potential and ability to drive sales share in big revenue markets.
The whole reason Delta pursued equity JV's was its weaker network made it less attractive to potential partners than AA/UA.

You hit the nail on the head. And they keep doing it again and again - stay tuned for an even bigger series of misadventures at LATAM, and especially WestJet - they made the very blunder that AS didn't make...


DL has stronger hubs for a partner than AA and AS for sure. ATL, JFK, LAX, SEA, BOS in addition to 3 primarily domestic hubs, MSP, DTW and SLC.

Let's see AA has nothing at JFK, PHL, CLT and DFW(all cities foreign carriers don't even know where they are) and a week position at ORD. So that leaves AA with LAX and MIA. I'll take DL there.

AS has let's see, oh yeah nothing but SEA anymore as they couldn't take on the big boys in CA and oh who is the dominant international carrier there, DL.

UA has the best hubs for foreign alliances, in ORD, EWR, IAD, LAX, and SFO. IAH/DEN more domestic.


JFK is a city foreign carriers don't know about?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:57 am

Though DL's more recent partners are somewhat a result of "what was left at the time", their JV with AF/KL has been a goldmine for them, and the hubs at AMS and CDG easily rival FRA and MUC. And they're arguably better than LHR in terms of space and better than MAD in terms of geography. DL was also smart to go in and grab VS as a partner, however poorly that company has performed financially. Gaining access to the VS flights out of JFK, BOS and SFO was a godsend for DL, and it made them a lot stronger at LHR and gave them better access to UK-originating passengers than they would have ever gotten otherwise. DL also needed a partner in Australia to rival the foothold QF/AA and UA had that market, so VA seemed like the perfect fit, especially in light of their onboard product. The matchup with AM also seemed like a good deal when you consider how weak DL has traditionally been in Latin America. MEX continues to be a major business market, and being tied up with AM in Mexico means gaining access to their frequent flyers and sales network. In short, every carrier that DL has teamed up with has brought them something they didn't have before, and none of those carriers were having serious problems when the partnerships were approved. If you think back to the days when DL only had ATL, SLC, CVG and a little JFK and then look at where they are now, it's amazing to think of how much they grew organically and through those partnerships, even when the merger with NW isn't taken into consideration.
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:58 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Biophobe99 wrote:
It’s not because they are terrible airlines but because the demand across the globe has radically declined in a very short period.


That is very revisionist history.
Last profitable year

JV Partner
VS = 2017
AM= 2016
VA = 2012
AF/KL = 2019 (lost money in 2018 though)
KE = 2016
AZ = a very long time ago



I'm not including WS and LA since the JV's have not been approved or implemented yet.

The JV partners' financial distress is due to more than just the current drop in demand.



It’s not revisionist history. I never mentioned anything about profitability. While some were not profitable almost none were on the verge of bankruptcy or liquidation before COVID-19. To be completely fair if the US government hadn’t intervened most of the US airlines would be close behind in the fast lane to bankruptcy.
 
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:13 am

Please avoid personal comments or insults, and try to stay on topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
n2dru
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:40 am

onwFan wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
DL has stronger hubs for a partner than AA and AS for sure. ATL, JFK, LAX, SEA, BOS in addition to 3 primarily domestic hubs, MSP, DTW and SLC.

JFK and LAX are pretty much everyone's hubs. And to the crux of this thread, most foreign carrier partners will already be flying to JFK and LAX irrespective of DL having a hub there, and they all want to make money on the O/D there. SEA and BOS are barely budding hubs, and everything seems to suggest that they are not even profitable yet. The truth is that DL has seriously been attempting to bolster SEA & BOS to compensate for their lack of presence in bigger premium markets, which is where the business demand is. We are still to see how COVID impacts BOS & SEA. And by the way, ATL & DTW are what they are only because DL has a hub there.

bfitzflyer wrote:
Let's see AA has nothing at JFK, PHL, CLT and DFW(all cities foreign carriers don't even know where they are) and a week position at ORD. So that leaves AA with LAX and MIA. I'll take DL there.

AA has nothing at PHL & DFW? Not have a clue what you mean, but whatever... ORD may not have become as big of a hub as UA's, but AA's partners (BA, JL, CX, QR, RJ, FY) have all had great success at ORD with AA's feed. By the way, I would really love to know which are those foreign carriers who have heard about Atlanta, Minneapolis, Detroit and Salt Lake City before Dallas & Philly.

bfitzflyer wrote:
AS has let's see, oh yeah nothing but SEA anymore as they couldn't take on the big boys in CA and oh who is the dominant international carrier there, DL.

That's brand new information. The last time I heard, AS had double the market share of DL.

bfitzflyer wrote:
UA has the best hubs for foreign alliances, in ORD, EWR, IAD, LAX, and SFO. IAH/DEN more domestic.

No contesting there.

In that same vein are DFW, CLT, PHL and PHX the hubs they are because of AA like ATL and DTW are for DL??
 
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wxman11
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:11 am

bfitzflyer wrote:

How is JFK a hub for AA, down to what 50 flights pre covid.. PHL and DFW are huge for AA, just insignificant to international travelers. ATL world's largest airport, enough said. MSP, DTW and SLC are domestic hubs as I stated. SEA, let's see how many overseas flights does AS have, oh, that would be zero. Glad we agree on UA


LOL I find this comeback funny. Don't know why though. Perhaps its how it ended.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:28 am

I wonder if DL will pony up money again for a stake in LAN, or simply have a plain JV.
 
jayunited
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:35 pm

kavok wrote:
You could make a very similar list for many One World members. And while Star is probably the best collection of financially healthy airlines, even that alliance has/had a few members struggle. I mean, I guess you can congratulate United for getting into Star ahead of DL and AA, but that being said.., what are AA and DL exactly supposed to do given that fact? There isn’t a better alternative out there.



United did not get into Star, United is one of the original founding members of Star.

braniff2hav wrote:
Delta will never let Virgin Atlantic fail. It is far too significant of an investment and affords Delta much value with their LHR base and resources. Will there be changes, sure. But I would look for VS to be around for a long time after they get over this hump.


What choice does DL have at this point in time. Right now they don't have the money to invest or extend a life line to VS, for what it's worth VS is on their own, they are going to have to figure things out for themselves.

Dieuwer wrote:
I wonder if DL will pony up money again for a stake in LAN, or simply have a plain JV.


What money? Delta like every other airline recorded a loss in Q1 they will report a loss in Q2. Delta hopes to reduce their daily cash burn rate to zero dollars by the end of December or January 2021. However right now DL is still burning millions of dollars daily so where does DL get the money from to buy a stake in another South American airline? They haven't even seen a return on investment from LATAM, and they are trying to remove themselves as a guarantor for a $300 million dollar loan for GOL which is due this August and GOL hasn't made a single payment.
 
RvA
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:42 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
onwFan wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
DL has stronger hubs for a partner than AA and AS for sure. ATL, JFK, LAX, SEA, BOS in addition to 3 primarily domestic hubs, MSP, DTW and SLC.

JFK and LAX are pretty much everyone's hubs. And to the crux of this thread, most foreign carrier partners will already be flying to JFK and LAX irrespective of DL having a hub there, and they all want to make money on the O/D there. SEA and BOS are barely budding hubs, and everything seems to suggest that they are not even profitable yet. The truth is that DL has seriously been attempting to bolster SEA & BOS to compensate for their lack of presence in bigger premium markets, which is where the business demand is. We are still to see how COVID impacts BOS & SEA. And by the way, ATL & DTW are what they are only because DL has a hub there.

bfitzflyer wrote:
Let's see AA has nothing at JFK, PHL, CLT and DFW(all cities foreign carriers don't even know where they are) and a week position at ORD. So that leaves AA with LAX and MIA. I'll take DL there.

AA has nothing at PHL & DFW? Not have a clue what you mean, but whatever... ORD may not have become as big of a hub as UA's, but AA's partners (BA, JL, CX, QR, RJ, FY) have all had great success at ORD with AA's feed. By the way, I would really love to know which are those foreign carriers who have heard about Atlanta, Minneapolis, Detroit and Salt Lake City before Dallas & Philly.

bfitzflyer wrote:
AS has let's see, oh yeah nothing but SEA anymore as they couldn't take on the big boys in CA and oh who is the dominant international carrier there, DL.

That's brand new information. The last time I heard, AS had double the market share of DL.

bfitzflyer wrote:
UA has the best hubs for foreign alliances, in ORD, EWR, IAD, LAX, and SFO. IAH/DEN more domestic.

No contesting there.


How is JFK a hub for AA, down to what 50 flights pre covid.. PHL and DFW are huge for AA, just insignificant to international travelers. ATL world's largest airport, enough said. MSP, DTW and SLC are domestic hubs as I stated. SEA, let's see how many overseas flights does AS have, oh, that would be zero. Glad we agree on UA


Not sure I agree with your remarks here. PHL and DFW are insignificant for international travellers? Given they are two big gateways connecting many international destinations to many domestic and international destinations how is that insignificant? MSP/DTW do a similar job for DL albeit at a smaller scale, mostly to AMS/MSP but I wouldn’t say that’s insignificant, how many transatlantic flights are flying there for the main purpose of connecting people onwards into the Domestic network. Similar to what DFW and PHL do for AA except at a smaller scale.
 
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 pm

Once everything calms a bit, I would love to see Delta maybe get partnerships with SQ, TK, and NZ. I could be wrong and someone could correct me but those three airlines seem not so deep into star alliance as others such as AC, LH, and NH.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:57 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Once everything calms a bit, I would love to see Delta maybe get partnerships with SQ, TK, and NZ. I could be wrong and someone could correct me but those three airlines seem not so deep into star alliance as others such as AC, LH, and NH.


NZ has a whole JV with UA, they are not leaving Star
SQ specifically chose Star over Delta, I don't see a reason for them to go back (Swissair, Singapore and Delta had an alliance called Worldwide Quality, pre-Star)
TK is not leaving UA. They fly to 6 of UA's 7 hubs plus AC is an important NA partner as well. What would DL do better for them?
 
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Antaras
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:45 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
Once everything calms a bit, I would love to see Delta maybe get partnerships with SQ, TK, and NZ. I could be wrong and someone could correct me but those three airlines seem not so deep into star alliance as others such as AC, LH, and NH.

Of course DL might have partnership with those carriers as the difference in alliance means nothing (for example: VN does have partnership with ANA).

But DL won't steal half-of-Star-Alliance or yeet-the-whole-Skyteam.
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kavok
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Re: Time For Delta To Consider New Airline Partners?

Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:02 pm

RvA wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
onwFan wrote:
JFK and LAX are pretty much everyone's hubs. And to the crux of this thread, most foreign carrier partners will already be flying to JFK and LAX irrespective of DL having a hub there, and they all want to make money on the O/D there. SEA and BOS are barely budding hubs, and everything seems to suggest that they are not even profitable yet. The truth is that DL has seriously been attempting to bolster SEA & BOS to compensate for their lack of presence in bigger premium markets, which is where the business demand is. We are still to see how COVID impacts BOS & SEA. And by the way, ATL & DTW are what they are only because DL has a hub there.


AA has nothing at PHL & DFW? Not have a clue what you mean, but whatever... ORD may not have become as big of a hub as UA's, but AA's partners (BA, JL, CX, QR, RJ, FY) have all had great success at ORD with AA's feed. By the way, I would really love to know which are those foreign carriers who have heard about Atlanta, Minneapolis, Detroit and Salt Lake City before Dallas & Philly.


That's brand new information. The last time I heard, AS had double the market share of DL.


No contesting there.


How is JFK a hub for AA, down to what 50 flights pre covid.. PHL and DFW are huge for AA, just insignificant to international travelers. ATL world's largest airport, enough said. MSP, DTW and SLC are domestic hubs as I stated. SEA, let's see how many overseas flights does AS have, oh, that would be zero. Glad we agree on UA


Not sure I agree with your remarks here. PHL and DFW are insignificant for international travellers? Given they are two big gateways connecting many international destinations to many domestic and international destinations how is that insignificant? MSP/DTW do a similar job for DL albeit at a smaller scale, mostly to AMS/MSP but I wouldn’t say that’s insignificant, how many transatlantic flights are flying there for the main purpose of connecting people onwards into the Domestic network. Similar to what DFW and PHL do for AA except at a smaller scale.


You can basically break the US down in a series of tiers:
Tier 1: LAX/NYC(JFK+EWR). Everyone has a hub, lots of partner flights.
Tier 2: ORD/IAD/SFO. Very significant international demand from many airlines for both TATL and TPAC.
Tier 3: MIA/BOS/SEA. Significant international destinations and demand from both domestic and abroad, with heavy international focus on a certain region. Natural geographic hubs because of being in their “corner” of the USA. (Ie MIA to Latin America, BOS to Europe, SEA to Asia).
Tier 4: DFW/ATL/IAH/PHL/DTW. Major hub for one airline, in major market, with good international demand. The hub airline serves many destinations, and there are a few other international flights from non-alliance carriers. The hub airline, while providing more international service than could be supported on its own, likely also keeps away a few international flights from other alliances. (i.e., if not for AA then AF would probably serve PHL, if not for DL then BA would probably serve DTW, etc.)
Tier 5: DEN/CLT/MSP/PHX/SLC. Large domestic hub that attracts some international service, mostly on the hub carrier’s alliance. Less local international O/D than Tier 4.
Wildcard Tier: MCO/LAS/HNL/FLL. Large leisure markets that attract service from many carriers and LCC because of local leisure attractions.

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