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NIKV69
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Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:33 am

The Survey thread gave me an idea. Instead of the identity politics that dominate here lets have honest discussions about our beliefs on all the topics. I will begin with Drugs.

All drugs should be legal. Coke. Heroin etc. I feel it would destroy the criminal element and bring much needed tax revenue. I think 5 more states are voting on Marijuana this election and it's a matter of time before we can move toward legalizing it all.

Also I don't want my police wasting one man hour on it. I want them going after rapists, murderers and thieves etc.

Fair disclosure I have never used drugs.

The war on drugs was lost a long time ago. I mean if a woman deserves the right to her body than we all have a right to put whatever we want in ours even if we risk death. Especially since alcohol does it on a huge scale, even if it takes longer.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:53 am

I absolutely agree that the war on drugs was lost a long time ago. The US position has long been malign at home and amongst its circle of influence.

This is an area where I am conflicted. My predisposition is to legalisation, but with tax and health measures around known harm, similar to the Australian approach to tobacco.

But....then you have the dramatic side-effects of drugs such as meth.

Fair disclosure - I smoked marijuana in my youth, and have partied with people who have used coke, speed and other similar 90s party drugs.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:48 am

My home state of NJ, along with several other USA states have ballot questions in this election to allow for legal retail sales of marijuana. So far the polling has been a majority of voters favoring legalization. Now if we can get the Federal laws as to the excessively high classification of pot set over 80 to 100 years ago, that would be the real first step toward reality.
 
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stl07
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:53 am

I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking
 
Kent350787
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:00 am

stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Well, to some extent. Most of the tax just goes to general revenue. But cigarettes are around $30 for a pack of 25, the large prportion of that being taxes and excise. 30 pieces of nicotine replacement gum is around $15.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:18 am

stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Hello, I am here in San Francisco and I can tell you first hand, having legal weed is great. I have no shame admitting that I enjoy it and there is very little social stigma associated with it much anymore. It can be discussed at work, much in the way that wine or beer typically is. Seeing cops just isn't as nerve wracking any more. One interesting effect is that for most people, the legalization also removed a lot of the "forbidden fun" component. To be honest, I think its status as legal here demystifies it and makes it not quite as exciting for kids as it was when I was younger. I happen to think it will lead to kids making better and more informed choices.

Of course, those working in federal positions and the such can't take advantage. For everyone else, its really nice to know you are not possibly jeopardizing your career but rather, enjoying something that is always more peaceful than the effects of alcohol.
 
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stl07
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:09 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Hello, I am here in San Francisco and I can tell you first hand, having legal weed is great. I have no shame admitting that I enjoy it and there is very little social stigma associated with it much anymore. It can be discussed at work, much in the way that wine or beer typically is. Seeing cops just isn't as nerve wracking any more. One interesting effect is that for most people, the legalization also removed a lot of the "forbidden fun" component. To be honest, I think its status as legal here demystifies it and makes it not quite as exciting for kids as it was when I was younger. I happen to think it will lead to kids making better and more informed choices.

Of course, those working in federal positions and the such can't take advantage. For everyone else, its really nice to know you are not possibly jeopardizing your career but rather, enjoying something that is always more peaceful than the effects of alcohol.

Interesting, the culture is definitely different over here, although IL just legalized it so most people just cross over to IL and make a day trip out of stalking up, and of course there happen to be distilleries in the border suburbs haha.

So I actually watched a program on TV that was talking about how illegal weed usage skyrocketed after legalization because nobody was afraid anymore, and only 1/3 of places selling weed in LA were selling legal weed. Kind of an interesting tidbit. I would hope some of the tax money raised is going towards fixing that problem (illegal weed is obv. dangerous) as well as curbing underage use.
 
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stl07
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:09 am

Kent350787 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Well, to some extent. Most of the tax just goes to general revenue. But cigarettes are around $30 for a pack of 25, the large prportion of that being taxes and excise. 30 pieces of nicotine replacement gum is around $15.

That makes more sense, I'm not so educated on their system.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:21 am

stl07 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Well, to some extent. Most of the tax just goes to general revenue. But cigarettes are around $30 for a pack of 25, the large prportion of that being taxes and excise. 30 pieces of nicotine replacement gum is around $15.

That makes more sense, I'm not so educated on their system.


Other mandated elements include zero cigarette advertising, plain packaging (brand name only in consistent lettering to distinguish brands) and gruesome pictures of the impacts of smoking caused cancers on each packet.

This is where I start seeing difficulties with legalisation if we then want to also address health risk that arise from the use, let alone misuse, of some drugs. I support legalisation, but we also need to be ready to address the likely health outcomes.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:34 am

NIKV69 wrote:

All drugs should be legal. Coke. Heroin etc. I feel it would destroy the criminal element and bring much needed tax revenue. I think 5 more states are voting on Marijuana this election and it's a matter of time before we can move toward legalizing it all.

Also I don't want my police wasting one man hour on it. I want them going after rapists, murderers and thieves etc.

Fair disclosure I have never used drugs.

The war on drugs was lost a long time ago. I mean if a woman deserves the right to her body than we all have a right to put whatever we want in ours even if we risk death. Especially since alcohol does it on a huge scale, even if it takes longer.



Hmmm... A true American will not have a philosophical issue with that. However...

Evaporating the War on Drugs will leave an awful lot of surplus money into the system. On the surface, this is fine. But the concern is that none of that will find its way to addiction treatment services/rehab. Doing such a thing is only worthwhile if we can address this.

So how do you propose putting that into a general frame of reference for a taxbase that is already fairly irroyal about such things on a good day?

Kent350787 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Well, to some extent. Most of the tax just goes to general revenue. But cigarettes are around $30 for a pack of 25, the large proportion of that being taxes and excise. 30 pieces of nicotine replacement gum is around $15.


Indeed. This is very typical of what happens in a lot of places with regard to tax allocations that are ear-marked for specific causes. While I do not see a problem with a certain level of flexibility where surpluses are concerned, we generally do not wait for that to be the case.

If we are going the legalization route —which is a fairly inevitable conclusion at this moment— we need to be careful with what taxation we agree to on that basis. Too many proponents support that exchange without reading the fine print and taking a good luck at the exemptions the larger pharma companies will get for this.

SL1200MK2 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Hello, I am here in San Francisco and I can tell you first hand, having legal weed is great. I have no shame admitting that I enjoy it and there is very little social stigma associated with it much anymore. It can be discussed at work, much in the way that wine or beer typically is.

...

Of course, those working in federal positions and the such can't take advantage. For everyone else, its really nice to know you are not possibly jeopardizing your career but rather, enjoying something that is always more peaceful than the effects of alcohol.


It is interesting the changes here. I left —more or less— the aerospace field this year for an entertainment industry position. Going from Zero tolerance to the virtual expectation of getting high with the boss has been an interesting, but not unwelcome, change.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:42 am

Kent350787 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

Well, to some extent. Most of the tax just goes to general revenue. But cigarettes are around $30 for a pack of 25, the large prportion of that being taxes and excise. 30 pieces of nicotine replacement gum is around $15.

That makes more sense, I'm not so educated on their system.


Other mandated elements include zero cigarette advertising, plain packaging (brand name only in consistent lettering to distinguish brands) and gruesome pictures of the impacts of smoking caused cancers on each packet.

This is where I start seeing difficulties with legalisation if we then want to also address health risk that arise from the use, let alone misuse, of some drugs. I support legalisation, but we also need to be ready to address the likely health outcomes.


Of course legalization and decriminalization of usage make sense but finer points like the above need to be carefully legislated. Bad public policy will have bad outcomes even if well-intentioned. Specific amounts of tax revenue need to be earmarked for treatment programs and counseling, and cannot be snatched away whenever governors or the lege get hungry for shoring up the general fund.
 
Redd
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:26 am

stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


I used to support that. Now after returning from Toronto, you don't have a chance to walk or bike more than 2 minutes anywhere downtown without being engulfed in a cloud of smoke. In some areas you can't find a person who isn't red-eyed. Add to that the fentanyl, meth & crack epidemic and homeless tent cities taking over everywhere, not a good vibe.

Then you have examples like Portugal that legalized all dugs and the situation there improved greatly, but they didn't have any further down to go. They also implemented effective programs to give ex-drug addicts a second chance and a purpose, not something I see many governments wanting to spend money on unfortunately. .

I think if you legalize drugs in certain countries it can be beneficial, but I think legalizing drugs in a country that doesn't have a drug problem will create a drug problem.

As long as the legalized drugs are expensive and it eliminates or largely reduces the black market, it's fine. There will never be a cocaine epidemic, because it's just too expensive. Crack on the other hand....
 
extender
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:39 am

Redd wrote:
... you don't have a chance to walk or bike more than 2 minutes anywhere downtown without being engulfed in a cloud of smoke. In some areas you can't find a person who isn't red-eyed.


This... I don't care if you want to smoke it, but I hate the smell of that stuff, and it bugs the living crap out of me when the cloud wafts over you. It is still a NO for safety-sensitive functions and should stay that way.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:47 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
That makes more sense, I'm not so educated on their system.


Other mandated elements include zero cigarette advertising, plain packaging (brand name only in consistent lettering to distinguish brands) and gruesome pictures of the impacts of smoking caused cancers on each packet.

This is where I start seeing difficulties with legalisation if we then want to also address health risk that arise from the use, let alone misuse, of some drugs. I support legalisation, but we also need to be ready to address the likely health outcomes.


Of course legalization and decriminalization of usage make sense but finer points like the above need to be carefully legislated. Bad public policy will have bad outcomes even if well-intentioned. Specific amounts of tax revenue need to be earmarked for treatment programs and counseling, and cannot be snatched away whenever governors or the lege get hungry for shoring up the general fund.


well ... legalizing drugs could almost instantly defund much of the planets organized crime. That in itself is a worthwhile goal. Using the tax revenue to fund programs towards responsible drug use, most people can drin responsible, so why wouldn´t that work with other drugs, should however be part of the program.

best regards
Thomas
 
NIKV69
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

well ... legalizing drugs could almost instantly defund much of the planets organized crime. That in itself is a worthwhile goal. Using the tax revenue to fund programs towards responsible drug use, most people can drin responsible, so why wouldn´t that work with other drugs, should however be part of the program.

best regards
Thomas


It's also great to not have police busting people having a small amount on them. I would rather they give tickets to aggressive drivers
 
tommy1808
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:55 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

well ... legalizing drugs could almost instantly defund much of the planets organized crime. That in itself is a worthwhile goal. Using the tax revenue to fund programs towards responsible drug use, most people can drin responsible, so why wouldn´t that work with other drugs, should however be part of the program.

best regards
Thomas


It's also great to not have police busting people having a small amount on them. I would rather they give tickets to aggressive drivers


:checkmark:
I have never heard a police or customs officer that cared to bust people for amounts expected for personal use. Too much paperwork for no effect.

best regards
Thomas
 
N867DA
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:55 pm

I think most drugs should be legal for the same reasons as NIKV69, and it cannot be done overnight or in isolation I live in a state that has become a hotbed for opioid overdoses, especially in rural counties. No one aspires to be a meth or heroin addict, and until we address some of the underlying issues I worry rapid legalization could have massive blow back. The optimistic view is that legalization will reduce stigma and therefore take away the allure of trying something so clearly bad in the first place.

I often wonder if we discovered alcohol today, would it be as easily accessible and socially acceptable?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:40 pm

N867DA wrote:
I think most drugs should be legal for the same reasons as NIKV69, and it cannot be done overnight or in isolation I live in a state that has become a hotbed for opioid overdoses, especially in rural counties. No one aspires to be a meth or heroin addict, and until we address some of the underlying issues I worry rapid legalization could have massive blow back. The optimistic view is that legalization will reduce stigma and therefore take away the allure of trying something so clearly bad in the first place.

I often wonder if we discovered alcohol today, would it be as easily accessible and socially acceptable?


The underlying issues involve what kind of economy we have and who benefits but obviously as a society we're not ready to seriously have that discussion yet. A return to Main Street capitalism instead of big box job killers in rural counties would definitely help.
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:07 pm

There is a genetic component. Drug abuse including alcohol is quite common in the antisocial/ narcissist/ histrionic/ borderline cluster. Drug abuse makes such personalities worse.

I believe the police should ignore drug use by artists, musicians and actors.

I made the experience that I can't think logical under the influence of Marijuana. I'm strictly against legalization.
However it seems there are people with whom it agrees. Other people's life gets ruined. But then same is true for alcohol. So I believe Marijuana use has to remain a grey area. Prohibited, but not with harsh punishments.
I think beer is great fun. Liquor should be considered a hard drug and prohibited.

Heroine users should be considered sick, not criminal. IIRC Switzerland or Zurich had following policy:
If a user was known to the police for more than ten years and he repeatedly failed withdrawals the gov supplied the drug. It had to be used on the spot under supervision. Good idea.

It seems to be assumed here that if drug dealers loose their business, they will look for a job. I'm not that optimistic.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:43 pm

A study should be done about which drugs can be legalized without major effects on people.

Weed can be the pilot program: see how usage affect society overall (any ill-effects? revenue stream? crime?) and then proceed with lower risk drugs. There are some drugs that, for better or worse, I would leave as illegal. I don't think legalizing it will bring down crime rates or usage; like alcohol and tobacco, enacting age limits doesn't stop people from using it before intended, and even alcohol being legal doesn't stop people from driving under the influence.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:09 pm

I don't know what the answer is really. I suppose there is no easy answer. I also am not a drug user but I do believe drugs such as pot should be legal. I know so many that use it just to relax and some for pain management but by far our police forces have stopped and harassed people for weed you watch any episode of COPS or LIVEPD and you will see that. Just make it legal and tax it. Now hard core opiates I don't know what the answer is but maybe bringing it out in the open you might be able to get people into treatment and there is that part of the equation it has to be affordable and the addict needs to want it which that is a hurdle all it's own. My brother was a heroin addict for 30 years and it destroyed our family after my parents passed I wound up being my brothers keeper he struggled with it he would quit for a while then any setback he would fall back again. He finally lost his battle in Aug 2019 at the age of 53 when the heroin he got was spiked with Fentanyl. So I know how drug addiction ruins people lives. But I do agree our war on drugs has been a failure.
 
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seb146
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:21 pm

The war on drugs has been a huge failure. Many people have said this for years. We have a ballot measure we are voting on here in Oregon to make possession of small amounts of drugs a misdemeanor instead of a felony and, the person charged will also be given information on drug addiction counseling. We also have a separate ballot measure to legalize psilocyben therapy for PTSD. Prescription shrooms. I have read a couple of articles and it sounds promising.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:50 pm

I think it is time to lift the restrictions on Marijuana. However I think any of the stronger drugs need to be held in check and regulated to Dr's prescriptions.

I don't think Drugs themselves are addictive. I think the feelings they give, or the feelings that they numb are the addiction. If you can't cure what ails you without drugs, you aren't going to cure it with them, unless it is a medical issue a Dr identifies.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:00 pm

stl07 wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I would love for the legalization of weed, with tax dollars being used to curb underage use of it like Australia does with smoking


Hello, I am here in San Francisco and I can tell you first hand, having legal weed is great. I have no shame admitting that I enjoy it and there is very little social stigma associated with it much anymore. It can be discussed at work, much in the way that wine or beer typically is. Seeing cops just isn't as nerve wracking any more. One interesting effect is that for most people, the legalization also removed a lot of the "forbidden fun" component. To be honest, I think its status as legal here demystifies it and makes it not quite as exciting for kids as it was when I was younger. I happen to think it will lead to kids making better and more informed choices.

Of course, those working in federal positions and the such can't take advantage. For everyone else, its really nice to know you are not possibly jeopardizing your career but rather, enjoying something that is always more peaceful than the effects of alcohol.

Interesting, the culture is definitely different over here, although IL just legalized it so most people just cross over to IL and make a day trip out of stalking up, and of course there happen to be distilleries in the border suburbs haha.

So I actually watched a program on TV that was talking about how illegal weed usage skyrocketed after legalization because nobody was afraid anymore, and only 1/3 of places selling weed in LA were selling legal weed. Kind of an interesting tidbit. I would hope some of the tax money raised is going towards fixing that problem (illegal weed is obv. dangerous) as well as curbing underage use.


When you say illegal weed is dangerous, do you mean due to the effects of the crime it causes? Or, are you suggesting that the grey-area product that a friend or acquaintance sells is inherently dangerous? Just curious. Thanks!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:11 pm

If you look at the most damaging drugs on the market, alcohol is by far the most damaging drug on the market. It is a Dutch study but it shouldn't be all that different in other countries.

Link in Dutch

Image

I think some drugs should be legalized the most damaging not so much: Heroine especially. Heroine is by far too addictive. Marijuana, why not, it is not too harmful, far less harmful than alcohol or nicotine.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:49 pm

I would settle for semi-legalized, or semi-decriminalized drug laws.

Milton Friedman, Nobelist and conservative economist, said that countries in Central and South America would become ungovernable given the war on drugs. He was right.

In our church I asked parents now and again if the war on drugs ever had helped them in dealing with children who were addicted. No one, not one, ever said they were helped.

I asked a police friend whether he would rather deal with a persons on cocaine/amphetimines, or with someone on marihuana/heroin? He laughed. people on the later are not inherently criminally out of control.

Or to put it another way, if a relative or dear friend is addicted would you rather they deal with a cartel dealer or with a pharmacist?

The drug of choice responsible for the most family, work, and social disruption is alcohol. 1 in 5 persons in the US is directly or indirectly seriously affected with alcohol abuse. A very dear friend at a very early age is currently in treatment for severe alcoholism with very serious alcohol related liver disease.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:36 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Or to put it another way, if a relative or dear friend is addicted would you rather they deal with a cartel dealer or with a pharmacist?

The drug of choice responsible for the most family, work, and social disruption is alcohol. 1 in 5 persons in the US is directly or indirectly seriously affected with alcohol abuse. A very dear friend at a very early age is currently in treatment for severe alcoholism with very serious alcohol related liver disease.


Neither I would intervene myself and get them help. Also I don't feel whether a drug is legal or not has nothing to do with abuse. Legalizing a drug I feel would lead to a slight increase in usage.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:43 pm

Nik - I suspect you are right that there would be some increase in drug use should it be legalized. But there would also be a substantial decrease in social harm.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:37 am

Sorry, I have to disagree with most here, marijuana sure, no issues with that being legalized, as long as it's treated like booze for issues like DUI.

Heroin, meth, cocaine, no, sure legalizing it will help with crime numbers, those selling it will no longer be arrested, crime goes down, however, the user still has to pay, heroin/meth users are not the best at keeping a job, so they end up turning to theft, prostitution and other crimes that do affect the general public.

My god son has been fighting heroin addiction for 10 years, the cost to his family has been huge, both financial and emotional.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:37 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Sorry, I have to disagree with most here, marijuana sure, no issues with that being legalized, as long as it's treated like booze for issues like DUI.



Here in CA, as I suspect is the case in most states, it is and has been for a while. In the year between 2017 - 2018, LA County (the best one), tripled the number of prosecutions for Marijuana DUI. In neighboring Orange County (not as good), the sheriff’s lab shows the number of drivers killed who had only THC in their blood has more than doubled the period from 2016 to 2018.

The state was smarter this time, WRT setting a limit. Namely, there is none. Any level of THC is good enough for an impairment conviction.

While I remain in favor of full legalization for these products, I agree that we need to stop relying on outdated and shoddy conventional wisdom for THC and operating a vehicle. It is absolutely not harmless, and is in all probability far more dangerous than alcohol, given the extreme retardation to reaction times and casual obliteration of decision making abilities.

It would be appropriate to elevate 1st offence THC DUI to an Entry Level Felony, with Prison time, based on these things.
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:51 am

The war on drugs has failed and weed should be decriminalized.
 
bhill
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:10 pm

Not narcotics...nope, sorry, that is waaay too dangerous for society. Perhaps once we have single payer healthcare to pay for the OD's and addiction issues.....
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:25 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
... In neighboring Orange County (not as good), the sheriff’s lab shows the number of drivers killed who had only THC in their blood has more than doubled the period from 2016 to 2018.
...
It is absolutely not harmless, and is in all probability far more dangerous than alcohol, given the extreme retardation to reaction times and casual obliteration of decision making abilities.


It shows that even driving with 30 km/ h can be dangerous.

I wondered why opinion about weed are so different and found this:
"Weed can have a variety of psychological and physical effects that vary from person to person. It can make some people tired or relaxed and give others an energy boost and increase alertness.

It can also help to treat mental health conditions, such as anxiety and depression, in some people. In others, it can actually cause anxiety over time.

As a result, weed can be considered a depressant, stimulant, or hallucinogen."
https://www.healthline.com/health/is-weed-a-depressant
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:24 am

Sokes wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
... In neighboring Orange County (not as good), the sheriff’s lab shows the number of drivers killed who had only THC in their blood has more than doubled the period from 2016 to 2018.
...
It is absolutely not harmless, and is in all probability far more dangerous than alcohol, given the extreme retardation to reaction times and casual obliteration of decision making abilities.


It shows that even driving with 30 km/ h can be dangerous.

I wondered why opinion about weed are so different and found this:
"Weed can have a variety of psychological and physical effects that vary from person to person. It can make some people tired or relaxed and give others an energy boost and increase alertness.

It can also help to treat mental health conditions, such as anxiety and depression, in some people. In others, it can actually cause anxiety over time.

As a result, weed can be considered a depressant, stimulant, or hallucinogen."
https://www.healthline.com/health/is-weed-a-depressant


Alcohol has similar though not identical properties in users and is legal just about everywhere.

As others have pointed out, as long as there is good public health infrastructure in place, society will be better off with legalization. Reductions in street wars in inner city areas alone will be worth it.
 
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lugie
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:49 am

I believe that drugs like weed or other physically harmless things like mushrooms or LSD can and maybe should be legalized - sell them, slap a high tax on them, and make precise legislation as to what can and can't be done under the influence. Just like we have it with BAC limits for drunk driving. Such legalization will lead to starving the revenue of drug rings and ensuring a clean product, reducing the health risks associated with cross-contamination and lacing that are results of pushing drugs into the black market. And then of course the increased tax revenues as an added bonus.

Those tax revenues should be used to fund campaigns informing people about the risks associated with those newly legalized drugs, but also those associated with well-established ones like nicotine and alcohol.
As for harder drugs the likes of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroine etc., I would not advocate for legalizing those. However, I would support de-criminalization as well as expanded help networks for users such as rehabilitation programs or safe injection sites. Those would be funded by the tax revenues from legalized "softer drugs" as well. De-criminalizing hard drugs could help take stigma away and make people more willing to take advantage of those offers. Not unlike the Portuguese approach.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01 pm

Diabetics who phase out from low blood glucose and cause car accidents can be cited for negligent/reckless driving, and a responsible for civil damages. As it needs to be. Likewise for alcohol and all other drugs. Insulin and alcohol have an effect, and the persons using them need to keep things within limits. If druggies overdose and one of them die it is sad, but generally not a crime. But we need to be sure to look after the kids.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:00 pm

Slap a high tax on drugs and you’ll create a black market. Ask Eric Garner’s family how the law treats black markets in cigs.
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
"Weed can have a variety of psychological and physical effects that vary from person to person. It can make some people tired or relaxed and give others an energy boost and increase alertness.

It can also help to treat mental health conditions, such as anxiety and depression, in some people. In others, it can actually cause anxiety over time.

As a result, weed can be considered a depressant, stimulant, or hallucinogen."
https://www.healthline.com/health/is-weed-a-depressant


Alcohol has similar though not identical properties in users and is legal just about everywhere.

That's why I earlier wrote that liquor should be prohibited.

I also don't believe that alcohol and Marijuana have same effect. With Marijuana I once felt as if I hoover over my own body. I have low level of fear by nature. I was lying on my bed and said to myself:
"O.k., I am lying on the bed. If I don't move, nothing can happen." The experience lasted only a few seconds. Nevertheless I did feel uneasy. I suppose on the highway such an experience is rather uncool.
However IIRC that experience was within a short time after smoking. I don't know if something like this can happen if responsible users keep 12 hours gap till driving. What if a regular user never makes such experiences? He may dismiss the 12 hours rule. Can one exclude it never happens?

Also I smoked only for 6 weeks, when a failed maths exam taught me better. But a smart classmate failed his A-levels because of smoking.
I have a neighbor who is heavy user. He suffers from depression, can't work and lives in an institution.
If he smokes because he has a depressive nature or if smoking caused the depression I can't tell.

People under the influence of alcohol tend to overspeed, people under Marijuana tend to drive slow.

I was once at a party. Everybody was smoking, only I was drinking. That was the most boring party of my life.
What makes you think that alcohol and Marijuana have similar properties?
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:19 pm

Redd wrote:

As long as the legalized drugs are expensive and it eliminates or largely reduces the black market, it's fine. There will never be a cocaine epidemic, because it's just too expensive. Crack on the other hand....


It won't work if the black market can provide it for much cheaper.
 
Redd
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:16 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Redd wrote:

As long as the legalized drugs are expensive and it eliminates or largely reduces the black market, it's fine. There will never be a cocaine epidemic, because it's just too expensive. Crack on the other hand....


It won't work if the black market can provide it for much cheaper.



That's true. There has to be a sweet spot where the price is high but not high enough to encourage a black market. I have a friend in Canada who owns on an online dispensary, and he tells me that the majority of his product is black market.

The profit margins on the regulated marijuana are too low for the farmers as the price is set by the government in Canada. So even though the end product is being sold by legal means, the product is not.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If you look at the most damaging drugs on the market, alcohol is by far the most damaging drug on the market. It is a Dutch study but it shouldn't be all that different in other countries.

That actually sounds like a decent argument against legalization.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:37 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you look at the most damaging drugs on the market, alcohol is by far the most damaging drug on the market. It is a Dutch study but it shouldn't be all that different in other countries.

That actually sounds like a decent argument against legalization.


Alcohol and tobacco? If you would come up with it now, it will not pass any consumer's legal framework. So which drug is legal and which is not, has nothing to do with how harmful it is to your own health or to society at large, but has everything to do with culture. So I would have no problem with legalizing Cocaine or pot. Not all that harmful, sure it is not good for your health, but neither is coffee, alcohol, tobacco, fast food or the like. So I think it should be in the stores. Perhaps slam a higher tax on it, together will all the other stuff which is harmful.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you look at the most damaging drugs on the market, alcohol is by far the most damaging drug on the market. It is a Dutch study but it shouldn't be all that different in other countries.

That actually sounds like a decent argument against legalization.
So which drug is legal and which is not, has nothing to do with how harmful it is to your own health or to society at large, but has everything to do with culture.

Sure it does. Alcohol is most harmful to society because it is widely consumed. Alcohol would be less widely consumed it it were made illegal (as in fact, happened during prohibition). Logically, the opposite would be true if drugs that are currently illegal would be made legal.
 
bhill
Posts: 1890
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:53 pm

.....and with common sense, removing the stigma and legalizing it can actually help society...

https://tre.wa.gov/portfolio-item/washi ... nd-health/
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8336
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:27 pm

I’m a “live and let live” kind of guy. I don’t care what you ingest, just not in the streets and scare the horses and, if you’re lifestyle causes you to be indigent, well, don’t come to me for help—no sympathy, you got what you asked for. That includes a claim on my tax money.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:48 pm

It's a tough call. I've never found myself addicted to drugs, but then I've never tried heroin and dabbled in meth only twice. I never really got smoking weed, probably because I'm not a smoker and hate inhaling, though found it mildly pleasant if eaten in smallish doses. Two pieces of hashcake in Amsterdam had me glued to the barstool and was a complete waste of a night. I absolutely loved E and probably overdid it slightly twenty years ago, but then I had the time of my life :spin:. I mostly avoid it now for health reasons (not great for blood pressure at all). If there's some coke going I'll dab my finger in once or twice and it's quite a pleasant buzz, but I'll never overdo it. I'm more comfortable with G as it lowers your blood pressure so I don't feel it's risky at all, though you have to very careful with your measures. A friend sourced some acid tabs recently and we had a strange, but mildy enjoyable night on that. I hadn't tried it for 25 years. I'd forgotten how amazing listening to music is on it, though it goes on too long: after six hours you just want it to stop. I drink more alcohol that I probably should, and can easily demolish a couple of bottles of wine at weekends, but I have no compulsion to imbibe, it's more of a social thing, particularly with food. Not much of a beer drinker at all, it's more a holiday thing where I'm more likely to end-up in a bar (sadly not happening for the forseeable). Lastly, I'm not, and never was, a smoker. So I would not be against legalising drugs, apart from the really hard stuff, but for sure there would have to be restrictions.
 
Sokes
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:39 am

Braybuddy wrote:
It's a tough call.
...

Thanks for sharing. I read even opium can be used responsible. But then governments can't make laws for the smart 30%.
Some people have psychological issues, some people don't think of tomorrow, some people are sadists who have themselves under control without drugs.
Most people agree with Marijuana, some get anxiety disorder.

So I think drugs have to remain prohibited.
But what is a judge to do if somebody like you gets caught? Tricky question, for responsible users don't deserve punishment.

What is G?
Can you expand on "there would have to be restrictions"?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:21 pm

Sokes wrote:
What is G?

https://www.letstalkaboutit.nhs.uk/othe ... /ghbgbl-g/

Sokes wrote:
Can you expand on "there would have to be restrictions"?

Similar to alcohol or prescription drugs, only stronger: minimum age, limit on quantity purchased, along with quality and strength controls, that sort of thing.
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2679
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:27 pm

Making cocaine legal would decimate cartels and provide billions in new tax base for latin american countries, transshipment countries, and end-user countries (USA/Europe). Cocaine also doesn't kill as much as opioids...it only kills gluttons who take too much, people who have a heart condition (who therefore shouldn't take ANY amphetamine) or people that are allergic.
 
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c933103
Posts: 5733
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Re: Political Positions (Drugs)

Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:41 am

Why not just keep these drugs, especially the more serious one, criminalized to inhibit distribution and consumption, while relaxing the check on usage and a bit to push the focus toward rehabilitation?

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