Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
BA744PHX
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:42 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:26 am

RemoFlyer wrote:
Who cares if they have 2 or 4, they dont have the aircraft for JFK BOM until they have 8+, the other 3 routes I mentioned are way more important to them than BOM.


WOW talking about complete denial.... you must be a "fake news" kind of person. The facts and evidence is there, if your still trying to fight to show you were "right" all your doing is looking childish.

The planes are there, they cant operate, move on!
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:17 am

jayunited wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I also think part of the reason is the fact that for years people were sick of UA being on the only option as EWR-DEL. The service based on the trip reports I've read and watched really doesn't seem to be all that great for a 14+ hour flight even in J. If AA swoops in with it's Flagship First product on the route out of JFK, I could see that easily being better than Polaris. That and don't forget, there are a ton of Indians in the NYC-Metro Area always willing to fly back to the Old Country.


Where have we heard this argument before? Oh yes in the now archive Delta thread how Delta would eat United's lunch on their now canceled JFK-BOM route. UA's Polaris product found on our 77Ws is a fantastic product and while it was possible to score an upgrade pre-pandemic it was by no means guaranteed as UA had no problem selling all 60 Polaris seats.


ContinentalEWR wrote:

I don't know that the 77W does much for AA on JFK-DEL that the 772ER doesn't.


The 77W is a much more capable aircraft than a 77E. For starters AA would be able to take a full passenger load on a 77W year around and a belly full of cargo. Whereas the 77E there will be little to cargo and at times during the year AA (like UA/CO when we used a 77E) will have to block rows and in some instances blocking rows won't be enough and on the return trip DEL-JFK the 77E will have to make a unscheduled fuel stop at BGR.


I don't disagree with any of this, but that is not how AA thinks. The 77W, having a First Class cabin and 309 seats, is, in the eyes of the bean counters at AA, too much plane for a new and untested route that isn't LHR, GRU, HND, EZE, or HKG, where the 77Ws AA has typically fly. All that said, the pandemic has changed all of this, with 77Ws and 772s flying MIA-LAX, MIA-JFK, DFW-MCO, etc...and plenty to go around right now given the dearth of international long haul routes, it might be smart for AA to put the 77W on JFK-DEL if the route ever actually starts, and use it for its range and cargo capabilities combined. The ideal plane would be the 787-9, but this would require AA to make JFK a pilot base or take on the additional costs of rotating a 789 in and out, which isn't easy given where the 789 flies out of for AA, which is principally, DFW, LAX, and ORD and logistically, not easy to move into and out of JFK. I don't think JFK-DEL will succeed for AA and I also think they've chosen the wrong 777 for JFK-TLV as well. TLV is a massive cargo route as much as it is a passenger one from the US and the 77W would have made more sense.
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 609
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:53 am

a320flyer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
BOS-CVG is interesting as it hits DL right when they are in the middle of downsizing CVG to a spoke from a focus city.

DL is doing no such thing. It's purely marketing, by any normal definition, it is still a focus city. They've already resumed much of their schedule at CVG and what hasn't come back is business-heavy routes that won't realistically return before 2022.

What will be interesting to see is how DL responds, given CVG-BOS is Delta's second busiest route (5x B717) behind CVG-ATL.


BOS-CVG is likely a play by AA for GE and P&G business. Given that there isn't much corporate travel right now, its odd, but I'm guessing its a long-game play and/or a contract is up right now. With GE based in Boston but having huge ops (ie Aerospace) in Cincy and P&G based in Cincy but Gillette in Boston both used to send a lot of people back and forth on that route...hence why BOS-CVG stayed 3X+ daily and some mainline.
 
avier
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:23 pm

So, in future AA & UA would be mostly going 789's on US-India and DL be using the A350's (280T). This is after the former two will retire their older 777's.
What's interesting about DL using A350 for this market, is that they'd be the first to use an Airbus aircraft on US-India non-stop flights. Till now it's always been a Boeing aircraft only.
And going by someone's post, if DL's future A350 deliveries begin in 2022, that'd probably be a reasonable timeline when they can resume BOM ops again with those longer range aircrafts.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:44 pm

JFK-DELreally surprises me. Does AA (and I guess JetBlue) have the network to feed this flight? Right now I feel like there are two strategies for US-India - UA flies from the US at night to allow US connections but arrives too late for most INdia connections. AI leaves in the afternoon arriving India in time for broad Indian connections. AA doesn’t see to have the US connections. ORD-BOM would have been much better IMHO. 75% of the US would have super convenient connections to BOM. But hope they succeed. Bigger questions (1) is what is going on at Delta and (2) I guess this means the US3 think hybrid VFR/Business routes are important in the future?
 
onwFan
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:10 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
I think it is pretty safe to say that AA is going to add South Africa from JFK too. Before all this growth from JFK it wasn't clear which AA hub could potentially get South Africa.

After all the India and Israel routes, Africa is the only hole in their network. Bring back Casablanca and add South Africa.

I think you are right. Not sure why it is not yet a priority for AA as they will have the biggest feed at JNB in the form of BA/Comair with SA all but gone..
 
VTORD
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:24 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
JFK-DEL really surprises me. Does AA (and I guess JetBlue) have the network to feed this flight? Right now I feel like there are two strategies for US-India - UA flies from the US at night to allow US connections but arrives too late for most India connections. AI leaves in the afternoon arriving India in time for broad Indian connections. AA doesn’t see to have the US connections.

For B6 I roughly counted 30+ stations east of the Mississippi from JFK. But not sure why you think AA "doesn't seem to have the connections". Or have not understood what you are saying.
Re: strategy I think we are seeing two markets. UA carries XXX-USHUB-IND and AI carries YYY-INHUB-USA. Both really do not care (sort of) about the connecting traffic beyond primary port of call. Sure UA has the Vistara code share but given Vistara's still small n/w, probably not significant. Yet.

Interestingly you can book XXX-DEL/BOM-EWR-YYY RT on UA but not on AI.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:26 pm

N717TW wrote:
a320flyer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
BOS-CVG is interesting as it hits DL right when they are in the middle of downsizing CVG to a spoke from a focus city.

DL is doing no such thing. It's purely marketing, by any normal definition, it is still a focus city. They've already resumed much of their schedule at CVG and what hasn't come back is business-heavy routes that won't realistically return before 2022.

What will be interesting to see is how DL responds, given CVG-BOS is Delta's second busiest route (5x B717) behind CVG-ATL.


BOS-CVG is likely a play by AA for GE and P&G business. Given that there isn't much corporate travel right now, its odd, but I'm guessing its a long-game play and/or a contract is up right now. With GE based in Boston but having huge ops (ie Aerospace) in Cincy and P&G based in Cincy but Gillette in Boston both used to send a lot of people back and forth on that route...hence why BOS-CVG stayed 3X+ daily and some mainline.


I don’t see it as any of this. To me, this move simply allows B6 to enter the CVG market without having to operate there. This cements the idea B6 isn’t coming to CVG for quite a while.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:44 pm

a320flyer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
BOS-CVG is interesting as it hits DL right when they are in the middle of downsizing CVG to a spoke from a focus city.

DL is doing no such thing. It's purely marketing, by any normal definition, it is still a focus city. They've already resumed much of their schedule at CVG and what hasn't come back is business-heavy routes that won't realistically return before 2022.

What will be interesting to see is how DL responds, given CVG-BOS is Delta's second busiest route (5x B717) behind CVG-ATL.

CLT/IAH/MCI/STL/YYZ are not returning.

The only non-hub/focus city routes left are BWI/ORD/PHL/DCA/DEN/SFO/LAS/DFW and Florida. BWI/ORD/DFW/PHL will be gone in a year or two. West Coast routes are probably safe as is Florida and DCA for slot reasons.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6300
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:50 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
N717TW wrote:
a320flyer wrote:
DL is doing no such thing. It's purely marketing, by any normal definition, it is still a focus city. They've already resumed much of their schedule at CVG and what hasn't come back is business-heavy routes that won't realistically return before 2022.

What will be interesting to see is how DL responds, given CVG-BOS is Delta's second busiest route (5x B717) behind CVG-ATL.


BOS-CVG is likely a play by AA for GE and P&G business. Given that there isn't much corporate travel right now, its odd, but I'm guessing its a long-game play and/or a contract is up right now. With GE based in Boston but having huge ops (ie Aerospace) in Cincy and P&G based in Cincy but Gillette in Boston both used to send a lot of people back and forth on that route...hence why BOS-CVG stayed 3X+ daily and some mainline.


I don’t see it as any of this. To me, this move simply allows B6 to enter the CVG market without having to operate there. This cements the idea B6 isn’t coming to CVG for quite a while.


It's absolutely about what N717TW and others have mentioned, AA just specifically mentioned BOS-CVG in their earnings call, it allows them to enter a key corporate market from BOS.

B6 isn't even codesharing on the route (at least they haven't said so yet).
 
ChrisPBacon
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:01 pm

OlympicATH wrote:
I'm confused. Is AA actually dropping PHL-ATH? I thought the entire transatlantic operation out of PHL was on hold and now meant to restart sometime mid-August. PHL-ATH is actually bookable from mid-August on a 788. I don't think the intention ever was to move the flight to JFK. That was a net addition.


See which route actually starts first. That'll be the tell. The focus in the near term is going to be O&D traffic plus B6 feeding connections at JFK. PHL is going to take it on the chin as AA rebuilds. They'll continue to use Terminal F to serve express markets that don't need NYC service. PHL was roughly 60% local traffic/40% connecting pre-pandemic. I can't see PHL rebuilding to the size it was in the summer of 2019. I expect it to rebuild as much as it can based on local traffic demands. It can still connect traffic of course, but it won't be as much.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
N717TW wrote:

BOS-CVG is likely a play by AA for GE and P&G business. Given that there isn't much corporate travel right now, its odd, but I'm guessing its a long-game play and/or a contract is up right now. With GE based in Boston but having huge ops (ie Aerospace) in Cincy and P&G based in Cincy but Gillette in Boston both used to send a lot of people back and forth on that route...hence why BOS-CVG stayed 3X+ daily and some mainline.


I don’t see it as any of this. To me, this move simply allows B6 to enter the CVG market without having to operate there. This cements the idea B6 isn’t coming to CVG for quite a while.


It's absolutely about what N717TW and others have mentioned, AA just specifically mentioned BOS-CVG in their earnings call, it allows them to enter a key corporate market from BOS.

B6 isn't even codesharing on the route (at least they haven't said so yet).


Except business travel is in the tank so this is pre-Covid thinking by AA then. They can give whatever reason they want but it feels like the AA/B6 partnership here.

Also, hard this think this won’t be codeshared with B6. Seems like a waste. Even if it’s not, B6 isn’t going to compete with AA/DL on BOS so it’s still unlikely they will start anything there soon.
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:58 pm

ChrisPBacon wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
I'm confused. Is AA actually dropping PHL-ATH? I thought the entire transatlantic operation out of PHL was on hold and now meant to restart sometime mid-August. PHL-ATH is actually bookable from mid-August on a 788. I don't think the intention ever was to move the flight to JFK. That was a net addition.


See which route actually starts first. That'll be the tell. The focus in the near term is going to be O&D traffic plus B6 feeding connections at JFK. PHL is going to take it on the chin as AA rebuilds. They'll continue to use Terminal F to serve express markets that don't need NYC service. PHL was roughly 60% local traffic/40% connecting pre-pandemic. I can't see PHL rebuilding to the size it was in the summer of 2019. I expect it to rebuild as much as it can based on local traffic demands. It can still connect traffic of course, but it won't be as much.


At the end of the day, the net result of this is going to be long haul flights shifted from PHL back to JFK with some of the domestic feed outsourced to B6. The NEA isn’t going to be about AA growth in the northeast, it’s shuffling the deck chairs in the form of moving a few long haul flights to JFK (and a lesser extent BOS) at the expense of PHL. As this happens, AA will need less domestic feed at PHL.

I’m not saying this isn’t a good strategy for AA, only time can tell that. PHL has decent O&D so there will still be the need for something there but I don’t think it will be near what AA inherited from US.

The long term problem for this setup will be the same as what DL found out at SEA. You need to be able to control your revenue and your schedule of your domestic feed to make a hub work. B6 and AA can place codes on each other’s flights and hand out FF miles to the other’s members, but they can’t talk to each other about the two most critical things: price and schedule.

I think both airlines are trying new things out to see what works while it’s relatively “low risk.” Fuel will continue to increase in cost and once traveler’s return in greater numbers, the opportunity cost of these experiments will go up. If they’re successful they’ll stay, if not, they’ll go.

My prediction: JFK-DEL and IAH-LGA won’t be long for the world. LGA-OKC is a very smart add and will probably stick around. I believe AA is the leading legacy at OKC and with the growth seen there, that’s a market that warrants service.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4261
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:05 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
ChrisPBacon wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
I'm confused. Is AA actually dropping PHL-ATH? I thought the entire transatlantic operation out of PHL was on hold and now meant to restart sometime mid-August. PHL-ATH is actually bookable from mid-August on a 788. I don't think the intention ever was to move the flight to JFK. That was a net addition.


See which route actually starts first. That'll be the tell. The focus in the near term is going to be O&D traffic plus B6 feeding connections at JFK. PHL is going to take it on the chin as AA rebuilds. They'll continue to use Terminal F to serve express markets that don't need NYC service. PHL was roughly 60% local traffic/40% connecting pre-pandemic. I can't see PHL rebuilding to the size it was in the summer of 2019. I expect it to rebuild as much as it can based on local traffic demands. It can still connect traffic of course, but it won't be as much.

The long term problem for this setup will be the same as what DL found out at SEA. You need to be able to control your revenue and your schedule of your domestic feed to make a hub work. B6 and AA can place codes on each other’s flights and hand out FF miles to the other’s members, but they can’t talk to each other about the two most critical things: price and schedule.

They can coordinate schedules.

I don't think this is good for PHL, but I am also very skeptical of the AA/B6 alliance.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:10 pm

usairways85 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
ChrisPBacon wrote:

See which route actually starts first. That'll be the tell. The focus in the near term is going to be O&D traffic plus B6 feeding connections at JFK. PHL is going to take it on the chin as AA rebuilds. They'll continue to use Terminal F to serve express markets that don't need NYC service. PHL was roughly 60% local traffic/40% connecting pre-pandemic. I can't see PHL rebuilding to the size it was in the summer of 2019. I expect it to rebuild as much as it can based on local traffic demands. It can still connect traffic of course, but it won't be as much.

The long term problem for this setup will be the same as what DL found out at SEA. You need to be able to control your revenue and your schedule of your domestic feed to make a hub work. B6 and AA can place codes on each other’s flights and hand out FF miles to the other’s members, but they can’t talk to each other about the two most critical things: price and schedule.

They can coordinate schedules.

I don't think this is good for PHL, but I am also very skeptical of the AA/B6 alliance.

Skeptical in what what?
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:22 pm

Irehdna wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Indian expats are from everywhere in India. JFK-DEL at 3x weekly is going to have to battle all that EK/QR connection traffic to rest of India once COVID is over in that part of the world.


India is more than the few cities the ME3 serve. If flying to Pune or Surat, for example, much easier to have a one-stop connection in Delhi. AA is probably targeting this market as well.

Same goes the reverse way too. Want to fly Delhi to Nashville? Best way is to take a nonstop to NYC/ORD, otherwise it is a 2 connections.


I agree. It frustrates me when people post well we know there are sizable traffic flows between US-India and the ME3 built a good chunk of their network around india traffic, but hey US3 why would you want to fly to india, leave US-India to the ME3. Whatever. Covid was a massive rebook to the industry. I would argue in this new world figuring out hybrid routes like US-India (which have business, high end VFR and VFR) seems to be be the sweet spot of airlines all around the world. UA (and even AI to a lessor extent) have shone that nonstops work and that people will connect at US hubs and India hubs to their final destination. I grant you there are people who just want to fly EK - ok. But AA, UA are on the right track. As someone living in America that flies to India a fair amount, I value these options and see them as great step forward.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4261
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:37 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
The long term problem for this setup will be the same as what DL found out at SEA. You need to be able to control your revenue and your schedule of your domestic feed to make a hub work. B6 and AA can place codes on each other’s flights and hand out FF miles to the other’s members, but they can’t talk to each other about the two most critical things: price and schedule.

They can coordinate schedules.

I don't think this is good for PHL, but I am also very skeptical of the AA/B6 alliance.

Skeptical in what what?

I am skeptical a bit that B6 is somehow the magic bullet that will make JFK work compared to AA alone pre-covid. AA/B6 and AS for that matter have made several great strategic moves and are playing offense. But I feel like it is only getting started and the competitors have not made significant moves to combat the alliance. I give it to AA/B6 because they've made it hard for the competition to know where to focus. Is it BOS, is it NYC, is it TA, is it the mid-tier focus cities like AUS/RDU...especially in a time when the airlines cut their fleets/deferred aircraft and may not have the aircraft to fight on multiple fronts.

Let's be real...PHL was never going to see the South America additions JFK has, JFK is obviously a much better market than PHL for TLV. ATH is a very large tourist market and I see the PHL route lasting along side ORD/JFK...so I do not look at these and think that PHL some how completely missed out. But as AA tinkers with PHL, cutting domestic banks, starting new routes only to bring them down to sub-daily, etc. they have opened the door for F9 and NK. F9 will have 23 daily flights at PHL in June, up 7% from 2019
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14176
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:41 pm

avier wrote:
What's interesting about DL using A350 for this market, is that they'd be the first to use an Airbus aircraft on US-India non-stop flights. Till now it's always been a Boeing aircraft only.

It's not like that's a result of some strategic market assessment; it's just a result of no interested airline HAVING Airbus aircraft that could do the route, until now.


avier wrote:
And going by someone's post, if DL's future A350 deliveries begin in 2022, that'd probably be a reasonable timeline when they can resume BOM ops again with those longer range aircrafts.

As was mentioned earlier, in a post that seems to have been arbitrarily deleted, DL already has four 280tonne A359s on property (N512DN, N513DZ, N514DN, and N515DN) that can do the route if they chose. They also have uprated eleven A359s from 268T to 275T, so those could sub in as well, though at reduced payload, if necessary.

BOM-JFK is long, but not *that* demanding, in these days when 275T A359s can fly SFO-SIN, and 278T A359s can fly JFK-MNL, with profitable payloads.
 
User avatar
N717TW
Posts: 609
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:20 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:

I don’t see it as any of this. To me, this move simply allows B6 to enter the CVG market without having to operate there. This cements the idea B6 isn’t coming to CVG for quite a while.


It's absolutely about what N717TW and others have mentioned, AA just specifically mentioned BOS-CVG in their earnings call, it allows them to enter a key corporate market from BOS.

B6 isn't even codesharing on the route (at least they haven't said so yet).


Except business travel is in the tank so this is pre-Covid thinking by AA then. They can give whatever reason they want but it feels like the AA/B6 partnership here.

Also, hard this think this won’t be codeshared with B6. Seems like a waste. Even if it’s not, B6 isn’t going to compete with AA/DL on BOS so it’s still unlikely they will start anything there soon.


There might be a B6 code-share coming but either way this is about corporate sales and it could very well be a combined corporate sales agreement. I'm not sure if they got ATI from the DoD to engage in joint corporate sales agreements. I'm sure having a CVG route was going to be a prerequisite for a GE or Gillette and maybe Raytheon deal besides the normal DC, LA, and LHR. From a corporate sales front, AA + B6 + AA's JV team (BA, EI, IB, JL) are pretty formidable in terms of options and nonstop service. DL might have a slight edge globally given how AMS and ICN are better transit hubs but I sure wouldn't mind being an AA corporate sales rep in Boston anymore.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1819
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:26 pm

tphuang wrote:
The issue first time around is that they simply could not sell out J let alone F. It's hard to make something like A321T work when EXPs can buy Y and get double upgrades to F. With corporate travel down, it's hard to imagine this situation getting better. Although, JetBlue will be very happy to shift some of those mint aircraft to other routes and not lose out schedule wise.


Someone correct me if I’m wrong - EXP’s don’t get double upgrades from Y to F unless they use 2 SWU’s (Y->J->F). So though maybe the EXP is only buying Y they’re using those SWU’s up to get into F on a 3-class aircraft.
 
RvA
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:13 pm

usairways85 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
They can coordinate schedules.

I don't think this is good for PHL, but I am also very skeptical of the AA/B6 alliance.

Skeptical in what what?

I am skeptical a bit that B6 is somehow the magic bullet that will make JFK work compared to AA alone pre-covid. AA/B6 and AS for that matter have made several great strategic moves and are playing offense. But I feel like it is only getting started and the competitors have not made significant moves to combat the alliance. I give it to AA/B6 because they've made it hard for the competition to know where to focus. Is it BOS, is it NYC, is it TA, is it the mid-tier focus cities like AUS/RDU...especially in a time when the airlines cut their fleets/deferred aircraft and may not have the aircraft to fight on multiple fronts.

Let's be real...PHL was never going to see the South America additions JFK has, JFK is obviously a much better market than PHL for TLV. ATH is a very large tourist market and I see the PHL route lasting along side ORD/JFK...so I do not look at these and think that PHL some how completely missed out. But as AA tinkers with PHL, cutting domestic banks, starting new routes only to bring them down to sub-daily, etc. they have opened the door for F9 and NK. F9 will have 23 daily flights at PHL in June, up 7% from 2019


I also don’t think this is partnership as it is will suddenly make JFK capable of just supporting all this long haul traffic if it’s largely meant to be supported by a non JV partner without ATI that everything will just go via an interline agreement with. B6 Rev mgmt has the priority to ensure B6 profitability on their domestic routes. They won’t make sacrifices to ensure AA can fill a flight with connections.
I hope it works, but I think this is far from easy.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:16 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The issue first time around is that they simply could not sell out J let alone F. It's hard to make something like A321T work when EXPs can buy Y and get double upgrades to F. With corporate travel down, it's hard to imagine this situation getting better. Although, JetBlue will be very happy to shift some of those mint aircraft to other routes and not lose out schedule wise.


Someone correct me if I’m wrong - EXP’s don’t get double upgrades from Y to F unless they use 2 SWU’s (Y->J->F). So though maybe the EXP is only buying Y they’re using those SWU’s up to get into F on a 3-class aircraft.


AA actually has really generous domestic upgrade policy in the 72 hour upgrade window, even on A321T. I've only ever gotten Y->J during the upgrade window out of JFK. But a lot of people on FT's AA forum described double upgrades on Y ticket.

The problem is A321T is too premium of a configuration outside of JFK-LAX/SFO
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6300
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:17 pm

N717TW wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

It's absolutely about what N717TW and others have mentioned, AA just specifically mentioned BOS-CVG in their earnings call, it allows them to enter a key corporate market from BOS.

B6 isn't even codesharing on the route (at least they haven't said so yet).


Except business travel is in the tank so this is pre-Covid thinking by AA then. They can give whatever reason they want but it feels like the AA/B6 partnership here.

Also, hard this think this won’t be codeshared with B6. Seems like a waste. Even if it’s not, B6 isn’t going to compete with AA/DL on BOS so it’s still unlikely they will start anything there soon.


There might be a B6 code-share coming but either way this is about corporate sales and it could very well be a combined corporate sales agreement. I'm not sure if they got ATI from the DoD to engage in joint corporate sales agreements. I'm sure having a CVG route was going to be a prerequisite for a GE or Gillette and maybe Raytheon deal besides the normal DC, LA, and LHR. From a corporate sales front, AA + B6 + AA's JV team (BA, EI, IB, JL) are pretty formidable in terms of options and nonstop service. DL might have a slight edge globally given how AMS and ICN are better transit hubs but I sure wouldn't mind being an AA corporate sales rep in Boston anymore.


Exactly, plus AA was adding these sorts of routes from BOS even before the B6 deal, they added AUS, RDU, & IND before covid hit.
 
acavpics
Posts: 584
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:55 pm

Out of curiosity, why did they pick JFK over PHL for a non-stop India flight from the East coast? I would have thought they could get more connecting passengers through PHL. Not to mention that there is far less competition from there.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:23 pm

acavpics wrote:
Out of curiosity, why did they pick JFK over PHL for a non-stop India flight from the East coast? I would have thought they could get more connecting passengers through PHL. Not to mention that there is far less competition from there.


Slots and the B6 partnership and AA's belief that they can command a premium (or at least capture a large slice of O&D to India from the NY Area and support the flight further with connections flowed from B6). Plus, in PHL they would be really going up against QR which likely has the largest share of PHL-India traffic (via DOH), then BA via LHR, and finally, LH when all services are running again.

AA is focused on JFK right now, given the investment with B6 and it has to make it work to justify having traded slots and gone through the hurdles to get it approved. Does not mean it will work but I do think PHL won't be getting much love on long haul until 2022.
 
N292UX
Posts: 716
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:08 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:59 pm

Sort of surprised BOS-SDF wasn't added. Still unserved from BOS and it's a route that can surely fill an E175 at least once a day.
 
Breathe
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:04 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Really odd to see AA starting more new international service during a pandemic than it did pre-pandemic, when traffic was exponentially larger. Even with the B6 partnership, I can't see how many of these aren't going to be massive money losers. AA's recent pushes have seemed like opportunistic moves to keep airplanes in the air. I just can't see the long-term sustainability of all of this "growth." But I could be wrong.

Jeremy

In a way it makes sense for those passengers not wanting to transfer and possibly get tested for COVID again at LHR/DXB/FRA/DOH etc. so a direct flight removes all those concerns.

How many of those passengers exist, or indeed how many passengers wanting to take this route will be interesting to see.
 
Breathe
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:06 pm

Philly65 wrote:
So once again the question will be raised of the status of PHL as the primary trans-atlantic gateway. ATH, TLV and now DEL all served from JFK/NYC, an over served market with lower yields. Effectively AA is outsourcing their feed on trans-atlantic.

In fairness there's enough people of Indian origin living in the NYC metro area like people of Israeli/Jewish descent for TLV to make a go of a direct flight to DEL.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4330
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:11 pm

Breathe wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Really odd to see AA starting more new international service during a pandemic than it did pre-pandemic, when traffic was exponentially larger. Even with the B6 partnership, I can't see how many of these aren't going to be massive money losers. AA's recent pushes have seemed like opportunistic moves to keep airplanes in the air. I just can't see the long-term sustainability of all of this "growth." But I could be wrong.

Jeremy

In a way it makes sense for those passengers not wanting to transfer and possibly get tested for COVID again at LHR/DXB/FRA/DOH etc. so a direct flight removes all those concerns.

How many of those passengers exist, or indeed how many passengers wanting to take this route will be interesting to see.


I'm one of them. I have been traveling abroad during COVID but if I can't get there nonstop from the US I'm not interested. There is still too much uncertainty around transferring in 3rd countries.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:37 pm

Breathe wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
So once again the question will be raised of the status of PHL as the primary trans-atlantic gateway. ATH, TLV and now DEL all served from JFK/NYC, an over served market with lower yields. Effectively AA is outsourcing their feed on trans-atlantic.

In fairness there's enough people of Indian origin living in the NYC metro area like people of Israeli/Jewish descent for TLV to make a go of a direct flight to DEL.

I mean, QR has a flight to PHL so Philadelphia metro area has a sizeable Indian population.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14176
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:16 pm

tphuang wrote:
The problem is A321T is too premium of a configuration outside of JFK-LAX/SFO

They offer it now on BOS-LAX and JFK-SNA as well.


acavpics wrote:
Out of curiosity, why did they pick JFK over PHL for a non-stop India flight from the East coast? I would have thought they could get more connecting passengers through PHL. Not to mention that there is far less competition from there.

There's also far less demand, hence the decision.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1185
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:56 am

jayunited wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I also think part of the reason is the fact that for years people were sick of UA being on the only option as EWR-DEL. The service based on the trip reports I've read and watched really doesn't seem to be all that great for a 14+ hour flight even in J. If AA swoops in with it's Flagship First product on the route out of JFK, I could see that easily being better than Polaris. That and don't forget, there are a ton of Indians in the NYC-Metro Area always willing to fly back to the Old Country.


Where have we heard this argument before? Oh yes in the now archive Delta thread how Delta would eat United's lunch on their now canceled JFK-BOM route. UA's Polaris product found on our 77Ws is a fantastic product and while it was possible to score an upgrade pre-pandemic it was by no means guaranteed as UA had no problem selling all 60 Polaris seats.


ContinentalEWR wrote:

I don't know that the 77W does much for AA on JFK-DEL that the 772ER doesn't.


The 77W is a much more capable aircraft than a 77E. For starters AA would be able to take a full passenger load on a 77W year around and a belly full of cargo. Whereas the 77E there will be little to cargo and at times during the year AA (like UA/CO when we used a 77E) will have to block rows and in some instances blocking rows won't be enough and on the return trip DEL-JFK the 77E will have to make a unscheduled fuel stop at BGR.


The fact we're still using the terms "CO" in the same argument is enough. The 2-2-2 (should it still exist) on a 14+ hour flight is absolute garbage. But then again, Legacy CO product wasn't all that great on the route either. They may have had another appetizer on the flight, but that was it.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:30 am

tphuang wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The issue first time around is that they simply could not sell out J let alone F. It's hard to make something like A321T work when EXPs can buy Y and get double upgrades to F. With corporate travel down, it's hard to imagine this situation getting better. Although, JetBlue will be very happy to shift some of those mint aircraft to other routes and not lose out schedule wise.


Someone correct me if I’m wrong - EXP’s don’t get double upgrades from Y to F unless they use 2 SWU’s (Y->J->F). So though maybe the EXP is only buying Y they’re using those SWU’s up to get into F on a 3-class aircraft.


AA actually has really generous domestic upgrade policy in the 72 hour upgrade window, even on A321T. I've only ever gotten Y->J during the upgrade window out of JFK. But a lot of people on FT's AA forum described double upgrades on Y ticket.

The problem is A321T is too premium of a configuration outside of JFK-LAX/SFO


The A321T is being deployed on BOS-LAX and later this Spring, JFK-SNA.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:32 am

N649DL wrote:
jayunited wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I also think part of the reason is the fact that for years people were sick of UA being on the only option as EWR-DEL. The service based on the trip reports I've read and watched really doesn't seem to be all that great for a 14+ hour flight even in J. If AA swoops in with it's Flagship First product on the route out of JFK, I could see that easily being better than Polaris. That and don't forget, there are a ton of Indians in the NYC-Metro Area always willing to fly back to the Old Country.


Where have we heard this argument before? Oh yes in the now archive Delta thread how Delta would eat United's lunch on their now canceled JFK-BOM route. UA's Polaris product found on our 77Ws is a fantastic product and while it was possible to score an upgrade pre-pandemic it was by no means guaranteed as UA had no problem selling all 60 Polaris seats.


ContinentalEWR wrote:

I don't know that the 77W does much for AA on JFK-DEL that the 772ER doesn't.


The 77W is a much more capable aircraft than a 77E. For starters AA would be able to take a full passenger load on a 77W year around and a belly full of cargo. Whereas the 77E there will be little to cargo and at times during the year AA (like UA/CO when we used a 77E) will have to block rows and in some instances blocking rows won't be enough and on the return trip DEL-JFK the 77E will have to make a unscheduled fuel stop at BGR.


The fact we're still using the terms "CO" in the same argument is enough. The 2-2-2 (should it still exist) on a 14+ hour flight is absolute garbage. But then again, Legacy CO product wasn't all that great on the route either. They may have had another appetizer on the flight, but that was it.


Some 787-9s still sport the 2-2-2 layout and are being reconfigured to the Polaris standard, but the 77W at UA was delivered with the Polaris cabin installed, so not sure what the point of bringing up Continental does for this thread, since it ceased to exist as an airline in 2013.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:30 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Someone correct me if I’m wrong - EXP’s don’t get double upgrades from Y to F unless they use 2 SWU’s (Y->J->F). So though maybe the EXP is only buying Y they’re using those SWU’s up to get into F on a 3-class aircraft.


AA actually has really generous domestic upgrade policy in the 72 hour upgrade window, even on A321T. I've only ever gotten Y->J during the upgrade window out of JFK. But a lot of people on FT's AA forum described double upgrades on Y ticket.

The problem is A321T is too premium of a configuration outside of JFK-LAX/SFO


The A321T is being deployed on BOS-LAX and later this Spring, JFK-SNA.


Yes I know. That's why I said what I said. A lot of people were getting double upgrades on BOS-LAX when tried it in 2019. It got so bad, that they dropped that experiment after 5 months. Some of these recent AA moves are really optimistic. If AA cannot find enough places to use A321T, they should really reconfigure it to be less premium heavy.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:00 pm

tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:

AA actually has really generous domestic upgrade policy in the 72 hour upgrade window, even on A321T. I've only ever gotten Y->J during the upgrade window out of JFK. But a lot of people on FT's AA forum described double upgrades on Y ticket.

The problem is A321T is too premium of a configuration outside of JFK-LAX/SFO


The A321T is being deployed on BOS-LAX and later this Spring, JFK-SNA.


Yes I know. That's why I said what I said. A lot of people were getting double upgrades on BOS-LAX when tried it in 2019. It got so bad, that they dropped that experiment after 5 months. Some of these recent AA moves are really optimistic. If AA cannot find enough places to use A321T, they should really reconfigure it to be less premium heavy.


American will reconfigure the 321T to standard if business travel does not recover fast enough, until then, they'll keep it as is. I am booked twice on the 321T in Business to SFO in May and in June, and the cabins are full, plus you're missing the point about the premium product (although I don't find it all that premium) marketing advantage it gives AA with the B6 tie up which puts pressure on DL to some extent, given that DL has a much more standard premium product on LAX/SFO except where the 764s are rotated in that have the new Delta One suites, plus UA entering, though right now, they're so small on JFK-LAX/SFO it is not a huge factor, but are flying a much larger, premium heavy jet.
 
IAHWorldflyer
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:32 pm

Pre-Covid, AA had a decent little operation at IAH. Usually 4 aircraft at the gates during peak times. Nice to see an LGA mainline add.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1819
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:34 pm

tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:

AA actually has really generous domestic upgrade policy in the 72 hour upgrade window, even on A321T. I've only ever gotten Y->J during the upgrade window out of JFK. But a lot of people on FT's AA forum described double upgrades on Y ticket.

The problem is A321T is too premium of a configuration outside of JFK-LAX/SFO


The A321T is being deployed on BOS-LAX and later this Spring, JFK-SNA.


Yes I know. That's why I said what I said. A lot of people were getting double upgrades on BOS-LAX when tried it in 2019. It got so bad, that they dropped that experiment after 5 months. Some of these recent AA moves are really optimistic. If AA cannot find enough places to use A321T, they should really reconfigure it to be less premium heavy.


Hard to follow AA's logic in dropping BOS-LAX on the A321T because of double upgrades. If it got so bad why not just stop the double upgrades? Is their system not able to prevent a Y-F double upgrade on the domestic 3-class routes?
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:38 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

The A321T is being deployed on BOS-LAX and later this Spring, JFK-SNA.


Yes I know. That's why I said what I said. A lot of people were getting double upgrades on BOS-LAX when tried it in 2019. It got so bad, that they dropped that experiment after 5 months. Some of these recent AA moves are really optimistic. If AA cannot find enough places to use A321T, they should really reconfigure it to be less premium heavy.


American will reconfigure the 321T to standard if business travel does not recover fast enough, until then, they'll keep it as is. I am booked twice on the 321T in Business to SFO in May and in June, and the cabins are full, plus you're missing the point about the premium product (although I don't find it all that premium) marketing advantage it gives AA with the B6 tie up which puts pressure on DL to some extent, given that DL has a much more standard premium product on LAX/SFO except where the 764s are rotated in that have the new Delta One suites, plus UA entering, though right now, they're so small on JFK-LAX/SFO it is not a huge factor, but are flying a much larger, premium heavy jet.


I don't think you realize just how terribly BOS-LAX performed on A321T in the 5 months it operated. You cannot compare premium demand on JFK-LAX/SFO to BOS-LAX. The issue at hand is that mint is obviously a much better product than what AA was offering on BOS-LAX. It's hard for AA to advertise JetBlue flights and their own flights on their own website and get FC bookings on their metal if JetBlue product is that much better. Even so, I don't see how this could work for more than a few months. This + the BOS-YYZ seems to be disasters in waiting.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:22 pm

tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Yes I know. That's why I said what I said. A lot of people were getting double upgrades on BOS-LAX when tried it in 2019. It got so bad, that they dropped that experiment after 5 months. Some of these recent AA moves are really optimistic. If AA cannot find enough places to use A321T, they should really reconfigure it to be less premium heavy.


American will reconfigure the 321T to standard if business travel does not recover fast enough, until then, they'll keep it as is. I am booked twice on the 321T in Business to SFO in May and in June, and the cabins are full, plus you're missing the point about the premium product (although I don't find it all that premium) marketing advantage it gives AA with the B6 tie up which puts pressure on DL to some extent, given that DL has a much more standard premium product on LAX/SFO except where the 764s are rotated in that have the new Delta One suites, plus UA entering, though right now, they're so small on JFK-LAX/SFO it is not a huge factor, but are flying a much larger, premium heavy jet.


I don't think you realize just how terribly BOS-LAX performed on A321T in the 5 months it operated. You cannot compare premium demand on JFK-LAX/SFO to BOS-LAX. The issue at hand is that mint is obviously a much better product than what AA was offering on BOS-LAX. It's hard for AA to advertise JetBlue flights and their own flights on their own website and get FC bookings on their metal if JetBlue product is that much better. Even so, I don't see how this could work for more than a few months. This + the BOS-YYZ seems to be disasters in waiting.


I actually do realize it and have mentioned it multiple times. You're also likely unaware that AA operated the 321T on one of its BOS-LAX flights, not all. Also, no one was comparing premium demand between JFK and BOS. I generally avoid engaging your posts. There is often good info but a wild amount of bias focused on B6. The dynamics of BOS-LAX have changed due to the pandemic, DL/UA removing flat beds, etc, and all the airlines are essentially spitballing in the absence of premium demand generated from corporate traffic, so please take that all into consideration before you lecture and belittle other posters.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1340
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Yes I know. That's why I said what I said. A lot of people were getting double upgrades on BOS-LAX when tried it in 2019. It got so bad, that they dropped that experiment after 5 months. Some of these recent AA moves are really optimistic. If AA cannot find enough places to use A321T, they should really reconfigure it to be less premium heavy.


American will reconfigure the 321T to standard if business travel does not recover fast enough, until then, they'll keep it as is. I am booked twice on the 321T in Business to SFO in May and in June, and the cabins are full, plus you're missing the point about the premium product (although I don't find it all that premium) marketing advantage it gives AA with the B6 tie up which puts pressure on DL to some extent, given that DL has a much more standard premium product on LAX/SFO except where the 764s are rotated in that have the new Delta One suites, plus UA entering, though right now, they're so small on JFK-LAX/SFO it is not a huge factor, but are flying a much larger, premium heavy jet.


I don't think you realize just how terribly BOS-LAX performed on A321T in the 5 months it operated. You cannot compare premium demand on JFK-LAX/SFO to BOS-LAX. The issue at hand is that mint is obviously a much better product than what AA was offering on BOS-LAX. It's hard for AA to advertise JetBlue flights and their own flights on their own website and get FC bookings on their metal if JetBlue product is that much better. Even so, I don't see how this could work for more than a few months. This + the BOS-YYZ seems to be disasters in waiting.


It will be interesting to see what happens in the MIA-LAX market longterm with B6 in there with Mint. AA was already offering dirt cheap fares on MIA-LAX throughout the pandemic. Just looking at pricing this summer, you can get r/t tickets in first on their 77Ws for $1,400-$1,600 on a number of flights. Is this the B6 effect?
 
N649DL
Posts: 1185
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:50 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
N649DL wrote:
jayunited wrote:

Where have we heard this argument before? Oh yes in the now archive Delta thread how Delta would eat United's lunch on their now canceled JFK-BOM route. UA's Polaris product found on our 77Ws is a fantastic product and while it was possible to score an upgrade pre-pandemic it was by no means guaranteed as UA had no problem selling all 60 Polaris seats.




The 77W is a much more capable aircraft than a 77E. For starters AA would be able to take a full passenger load on a 77W year around and a belly full of cargo. Whereas the 77E there will be little to cargo and at times during the year AA (like UA/CO when we used a 77E) will have to block rows and in some instances blocking rows won't be enough and on the return trip DEL-JFK the 77E will have to make a unscheduled fuel stop at BGR.


The fact we're still using the terms "CO" in the same argument is enough. The 2-2-2 (should it still exist) on a 14+ hour flight is absolute garbage. But then again, Legacy CO product wasn't all that great on the route either. They may have had another appetizer on the flight, but that was it.


Some 787-9s still sport the 2-2-2 layout and are being reconfigured to the Polaris standard, but the 77W at UA was delivered with the Polaris cabin installed, so not sure what the point of bringing up Continental does for this thread, since it ceased to exist as an airline in 2013.


CO was the first US carrier to start flying nonstop to India, IIRC (with the exception of I think NW on AMS-BOM.) Their product was nice for a while, but constantly has been cut back from the start, especially once they merged with UA.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:42 pm

B752OS wrote:

It will be interesting to see what happens in the MIA-LAX market longterm with B6 in there with Mint. AA was already offering dirt cheap fares on MIA-LAX throughout the pandemic. Just looking at pricing this summer, you can get r/t tickets in first on their 77Ws for $1,400-$1,600 on a number of flights. Is this the B6 effect?


I'm actually surprised it is even that high. It really is a combination of AA changing from 9 flights of mostly narrowbody pre-COVID to 6 777s and B6 going from 2x to 7x in the soFla-LAX market in very short order. Outside of hub to hub flights, it's going to be very hard for legacies to put lie-flat capacity on some of these mint market, because the J fares just drop so much.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:47 pm

N649DL wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
N649DL wrote:

The fact we're still using the terms "CO" in the same argument is enough. The 2-2-2 (should it still exist) on a 14+ hour flight is absolute garbage. But then again, Legacy CO product wasn't all that great on the route either. They may have had another appetizer on the flight, but that was it.


Some 787-9s still sport the 2-2-2 layout and are being reconfigured to the Polaris standard, but the 77W at UA was delivered with the Polaris cabin installed, so not sure what the point of bringing up Continental does for this thread, since it ceased to exist as an airline in 2013.


CO was the first US carrier to start flying nonstop to India, IIRC (with the exception of I think NW on AMS-BOM.) Their product was nice for a while, but constantly has been cut back from the start, especially once they merged with UA.


Not going to get into a CO vs. UA debate, that ship has long sailed. I would agree that the on board and general customer service experience on CO declined as integration with UA got underway, post-merger in 2010 and UA was a rough company to travel with, until 2018. CO indeed launched the first ever nonstop from the US to India with Delhi in 2005 from Newark and added Mumbai in 2007. As I recall, United had announced a nonstop from Chicago to India (Delhi, I believe) in the late 1990s or early 2000s which was to have operated with the 747-400 but it never did. I don't recall if it was a range issue or if 9/11 was the reason it never went ahead. American Airlines launched Chicago to Delhi in 2005, but after the CO launch from Newark.

NW operated to India via AMS, and not from the US mainland. DL briefly took that route over and then dropped it and opted for nonstops which have all been short lived. There was a 2006 launch of JFK-DEL (not entirely sure of the year) on the 777-200LR which was quickly dropped due to spiking jet fuel prices. It relaunched in Q1-2020 before the pandemic and got dropped again. Not sure if DL ever flew ATL to India.

Pan Am and TWA operated to India (TW to BOM only), but via KWI and Pan Am, via FRA, which later remained in the DL network for a time, until the FRA hub was fully dismantled. The PA service went something like Bombay-Karachi-Frankfurt-JFK.
Last edited by ContinentalEWR on Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4738
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:48 pm

B752OS wrote:
tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

American will reconfigure the 321T to standard if business travel does not recover fast enough, until then, they'll keep it as is. I am booked twice on the 321T in Business to SFO in May and in June, and the cabins are full, plus you're missing the point about the premium product (although I don't find it all that premium) marketing advantage it gives AA with the B6 tie up which puts pressure on DL to some extent, given that DL has a much more standard premium product on LAX/SFO except where the 764s are rotated in that have the new Delta One suites, plus UA entering, though right now, they're so small on JFK-LAX/SFO it is not a huge factor, but are flying a much larger, premium heavy jet.


I don't think you realize just how terribly BOS-LAX performed on A321T in the 5 months it operated. You cannot compare premium demand on JFK-LAX/SFO to BOS-LAX. The issue at hand is that mint is obviously a much better product than what AA was offering on BOS-LAX. It's hard for AA to advertise JetBlue flights and their own flights on their own website and get FC bookings on their metal if JetBlue product is that much better. Even so, I don't see how this could work for more than a few months. This + the BOS-YYZ seems to be disasters in waiting.


It will be interesting to see what happens in the MIA-LAX market longterm with B6 in there with Mint. AA was already offering dirt cheap fares on MIA-LAX throughout the pandemic. Just looking at pricing this summer, you can get r/t tickets in first on their 77Ws for $1,400-$1,600 on a number of flights. Is this the B6 effect?


AA is also discounting fares because it is going all 777 from MIA to LAX with little corporate travel demand and that's a ton of seats to fill.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:57 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
N717TW wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:

Except business travel is in the tank so this is pre-Covid thinking by AA then. They can give whatever reason they want but it feels like the AA/B6 partnership here.

Also, hard this think this won’t be codeshared with B6. Seems like a waste. Even if it’s not, B6 isn’t going to compete with AA/DL on BOS so it’s still unlikely they will start anything there soon.


There might be a B6 code-share coming but either way this is about corporate sales and it could very well be a combined corporate sales agreement. I'm not sure if they got ATI from the DoD to engage in joint corporate sales agreements. I'm sure having a CVG route was going to be a prerequisite for a GE or Gillette and maybe Raytheon deal besides the normal DC, LA, and LHR. From a corporate sales front, AA + B6 + AA's JV team (BA, EI, IB, JL) are pretty formidable in terms of options and nonstop service. DL might have a slight edge globally given how AMS and ICN are better transit hubs but I sure wouldn't mind being an AA corporate sales rep in Boston anymore.


Exactly, plus AA was adding these sorts of routes from BOS even before the B6 deal, they added AUS, RDU, & IND before covid hit.


In a week AA and B6 expanded their BOS ops to cover every large city in the Midwest. All these flights will be codeshares. This is all about the partnership.

It’s interesting B6 stations are near the Great Lakes while AA’s are closer to the Ohio River valley. I realize this likely wasn’t intentional but it’s interesting nonetheless.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1219
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:32 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
NW operated to India via AMS, and not from the US mainland. DL briefly took that route over and then dropped it and opted for nonstops which have all been short lived. There was a 2006 launch of JFK-DEL (not entirely sure of the year) on the 777-200LR which was quickly dropped due to spiking jet fuel prices. It relaunched in Q1-2020 before the pandemic and got dropped again. Not sure if DL ever flew ATL to India.

DL started JFK-BOM in 2006 with the B772ER. When the B77L came on board DL started using that aircraft to launch ATL-BOM before moving back to JFK-BOM and then dropped the route in 2009. JFK-BOM relaunched in Dec 2019 before Covid put an end to the service.

DL took over NW's AMS-BOM route and operated until March 2015. DL's partner 9W operated AMS-BOM from 2016 to April 2019 until 9W shut down. With 9W gone, KLM started operating the route and is still operating even in the pandemic under the travel bubble agreement.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6635
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:09 am

DTWLAX wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
NW operated to India via AMS, and not from the US mainland. DL briefly took that route over and then dropped it and opted for nonstops which have all been short lived. There was a 2006 launch of JFK-DEL (not entirely sure of the year) on the 777-200LR which was quickly dropped due to spiking jet fuel prices. It relaunched in Q1-2020 before the pandemic and got dropped again. Not sure if DL ever flew ATL to India.

DL started JFK-BOM in 2006 with the B772ER. When the B77L came on board DL started using that aircraft to launch ATL-BOM before moving back to JFK-BOM and then dropped the route in 2009. JFK-BOM relaunched in Dec 2019 before Covid put an end to the service.

DL took over NW's AMS-BOM route and operated until March 2015. DL's partner 9W operated AMS-BOM from 2016 to April 2019 until 9W shut down. With 9W gone, KLM started operating the route and is still operating even in the pandemic under the travel bubble agreement.


DL also flew CDG-BOM prior to that on a 763. I was on that flight in about 2003. They also did CDG-MAA for a short time on their own metal. I forget where they originated. Either JFK or ATL, I assume.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14176
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:35 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
NW operated to India via AMS, and not from the US mainland. DL briefly took that route over and then dropped it and opted for nonstops which have all been short lived. There was a 2006 launch of JFK-DEL (not entirely sure of the year) on the 777-200LR which was quickly dropped due to spiking jet fuel prices. It relaunched in Q1-2020 before the pandemic and got dropped again. Not sure if DL ever flew ATL to India.

DL started JFK-BOM in 2006 with the B772ER. When the B77L came on board DL started using that aircraft to launch ATL-BOM before moving back to JFK-BOM and then dropped the route in 2009. JFK-BOM relaunched in Dec 2019 before Covid put an end to the service.

DL took over NW's AMS-BOM route and operated until March 2015. DL's partner 9W operated AMS-BOM from 2016 to April 2019 until 9W shut down. With 9W gone, KLM started operating the route and is still operating even in the pandemic under the travel bubble agreement.


DL also flew CDG-BOM prior to that on a 763. I was on that flight in about 2003. They also did CDG-MAA for a short time on their own metal.

They'd also done FRA-BOM for quite some time (PA legacy) and continued to operate it even after CDG-BOM launched. For a very brief time, they did FRA-DEL too, the only time DL ever opped there.
 
flyer56
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:46 pm

Re: AA Announces New Routes Including JFK-DEL

Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:38 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
N649DL wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Some 787-9s still sport the 2-2-2 layout and are being reconfigured to the Polaris standard, but the 77W at UA was delivered with the Polaris cabin installed, so not sure what the point of bringing up Continental does for this thread, since it ceased to exist as an airline in 2013.


CO was the first US carrier to start flying nonstop to India, IIRC (with the exception of I think NW on AMS-BOM.) Their product was nice for a while, but constantly has been cut back from the start, especially once they merged with UA.


Not going to get into a CO vs. UA debate, that ship has long sailed. I would agree that the on board and general customer service experience on CO declined as integration with UA got underway, post-merger in 2010 and UA was a rough company to travel with, until 2018. CO indeed launched the first ever nonstop from the US to India with Delhi in 2005 from Newark and added Mumbai in 2007. As I recall, United had announced a nonstop from Chicago to India (Delhi, I believe) in the late 1990s or early 2000s which was to have operated with the 747-400 but it never did. I don't recall if it was a range issue or if 9/11 was the reason it never went ahead. American Airlines launched Chicago to Delhi in 2005, but after the CO launch from Newark.

NW operated to India via AMS, and not from the US mainland. DL briefly took that route over and then dropped it and opted for nonstops which have all been short lived. There was a 2006 launch of JFK-DEL (not entirely sure of the year) on the 777-200LR which was quickly dropped due to spiking jet fuel prices. It relaunched in Q1-2020 before the pandemic and got dropped again. Not sure if DL ever flew ATL to India.

Pan Am and TWA operated to India (TW to BOM only), but via KWI and Pan Am, via FRA, which later remained in the DL network for a time, until the FRA hub was fully dismantled. The PA service went something like Bombay-Karachi-Frankfurt-JFK.


In the 90s UA flew RTW through DEL, JFK-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-JFK and vv all on UA metal. But it was not non-stop from the US.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos