Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Breathe
Topic Author
Posts: 829
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:12 pm

Apart from the 767F, I don't believe P&W build any engines for any currently manufactured wide body aircraft. Do P&W have any plans to re-enter the wide body market or are Raytheon probably happy with the narrow body market?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:05 pm

Doesn't really matter what PW's plans are, so much as why would Boeing/Airbus/etc have any reason to take a risk on them, after so many screw-ups in the widebody segment?

PW4098? PW4173? PW4090 emissions?

Big reason the OEMs have been gun shy-- PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
cpd
Posts: 6787
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:07 am

Maybe the only way for them is to team up with an outsider, not one of the big two and work on some totally disruptive plane and engine combination.

That’s risky and expensive.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:32 am

cpd wrote:
That’s risky and expensive.

......and if there's anything that OEM's just loveeee on a new platform, it's high risk + expense. ;)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5553
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:55 am

LAX772LR wrote:
PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?


That's not entirely accurate; they're on the A380, albeit together with GE.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10328
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:55 am

When Airbus or Boeing are looking for a new engine for a widebody, P&W will bid.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9049
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:46 am

If their GTF is truly scalable to any thrust level that could be their entry back in to the widebody market
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:16 am

AA737-823 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?

That's not entirely accurate; they're on the A380, albeit together with GE.

That's not actually "PW" though, that's EA: and as loosely as AvGeeks like to interchange the structure, EA is an independent entity that includes component and IP contribution from PW, but is not in a corporate nor liability way, PW.

Same for when people conflate CFM for "GE," or IAE for "RR."


seahawk wrote:
When Airbus or Boeing are looking for a new engine for a widebody, P&W will bid.

Of course they'll bid, but there's only slightly more than a snowball's chance that that bid will be successful (and I'd argue) even considered on anything more than a superficial basis for fiscal responsibility, barring a default exclusivity.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 580
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am

Going back to the early 1970s P&W was the only option on the 747-100 with the JT9D, they also had the JT8D on the 727,737 and DC-9 and the JT3D on the developed versions of the 707 and DC-8 - GE and RR had a few niche products (e.g. CV990, One-Eleven etc.) but P&W almost owned the commercial jet engine market.
Granted it was a long time ago but how could a company in such a dominant position get it so wrong over the years?
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:53 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Doesn't really matter what PW's plans are, so much as why would Boeing/Airbus/etc have any reason to take a risk on them, after so many screw-ups in the widebody segment?

PW4098? PW4173? PW4090 emissions?

Big reason the OEMs have been gun shy-- PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?

Agree! Unfortuantely, after all the incidents involving their engines in both narrowbody and widebody, A, B, C etc may keep them at pole's length. The recent incident with PW4077-112 further damaged the already battered image, and may lead to accelerated retirement of many B77A if the cost to repair/ upgrade is cost prohibitive. They are fortunate that Airbus did not take legal action on them for damaging their A320neo and A220 family "reputation".

PW will have better chance sticking to providing turofan engines to fighter jets and after sales services to whichever commercial engines that are left in service currently.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5442
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:34 am

AA737-823 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?


That's not entirely accurate; they're on the A380, albeit together with GE.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. You might as well argue that PW are "on" the A330-300 or 747-400 or 777-200ER. None of these planes is in production.

Outside the 767-2C tanker, the last PW (or EA) engines delivered on new builds were:

24th April 2018 Qatar A380

11th July 2017 China Southern A330

It's the better part of four years since PW were "on" a widebody PAX plane.

They haven't sold an engine on a widebody since March 2014.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10328
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:37 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Of course they'll bid, but there's only slightly more than a snowball's chance that that bid will be successful (and I'd argue) even considered on anything more than a superficial basis for fiscal responsibility, barring a default exclusivity.


I think we will see. the GTF surely has changed the general outlook more than a bit.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:51 am

seahawk wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Of course they'll bid, but there's only slightly more than a snowball's chance that that bid will be successful (and I'd argue) even considered on anything more than a superficial basis for fiscal responsibility, barring a default exclusivity.

I think we will see. the GTF surely has changed the general outlook more than a bit.

They're not going to be the only one offering geared tech though.

They have something of an argument in that theirs will be the most mature such offering; but then again, so were the PW4000 offerings for both the 777 and A330, yet how'd that work out....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:06 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
seahawk wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Of course they'll bid, but there's only slightly more than a snowball's chance that that bid will be successful (and I'd argue) even considered on anything more than a superficial basis for fiscal responsibility, barring a default exclusivity.

I think we will see. the GTF surely has changed the general outlook more than a bit.

They're not going to be the only one offering geared tech though.

They have something of an argument in that theirs will be the most mature such offering; but then again, so were the PW4000 offerings for both the 777 and A330, yet how'd that work out....


I believe we're a long way from a wide body geared engine. They've said (and someone referenced it above) that scaling the tech to a large engine imposes some problems which must be overcome.

Only GE has what I would call a decent reputation WRT reliability on large airplanes in the recent past, both with the -115 and the GEnX. And in the current long range mode of operation (ETOPSl), reliability is hugely important.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26541
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
When Airbus or Boeing are looking for a new engine for a widebody, P&W will bid.

Or perhaps even Comac, CFM is already selling LEAP for the C919, PW bid for that business and lost. China is still not close to being able to make state of the art airliner engines.

aviatorcraig wrote:
Going back to the early 1970s P&W was the only option on the 747-100 with the JT9D, they also had the JT8D on the 727,737 and DC-9 and the JT3D on the developed versions of the 707 and DC-8 - GE and RR had a few niche products (e.g. CV990, One-Eleven etc.) but P&W almost owned the commercial jet engine market.
Granted it was a long time ago but how could a company in such a dominant position get it so wrong over the years?

I think a lot of their focus switched to the military side. US DoD is a great customer, checks clear the bank 100% of the time. PW has locked up the F22 and F35 engine business and is still making PW4000 for the ~190 or so KC46 tankers on order.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:44 pm

Max Q wrote:
If their GTF is truly scalable to any thrust level that could be their entry back in to the widebody market


Only after all the bugs are worked out on the narrow body side of the house first and the engine matures to where the airlines are comfortable with the reliability.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5254
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:36 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
Only after all the bugs are worked out on the narrow body side of the house first and the engine matures to where the airlines are comfortable with the reliability.


I believe that's already happened.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
UA444
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:43 pm

It's hilarious to think that major aerospace companies like Airbus and Boeing are going to get into personal ticky tacky actions and never let a PW engine on a wide body ever again for reasons that happened 10-15 years ago. It's a business. If they have the best offering or best prices, they'll get on. In 2006, clowns on this site said the same thing about narrow bodies, yet they are on the A220, MRJ, and have the best engine on the A320 neo.
Last edited by UA444 on Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UA444
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Doesn't really matter what PW's plans are, so much as why would Boeing/Airbus/etc have any reason to take a risk on them, after so many screw-ups in the widebody segment?

PW4098? PW4173? PW4090 emissions?

Big reason the OEMs have been gun shy-- PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?

Agree! Unfortuantely, after all the incidents involving their engines in both narrowbody and widebody, A, B, C etc may keep them at pole's length. The recent incident with PW4077-112 further damaged the already battered image, and may lead to accelerated retirement of many B77A if the cost to repair/ upgrade is cost prohibitive. They are fortunate that Airbus did not take legal action on them for damaging their A320neo and A220 family "reputation".

PW will have better chance sticking to providing turofan engines to fighter jets and after sales services to whichever commercial engines that are left in service currently.

So a 25 year old engine has a bad fan blade, and that immediately means their reputation is ruined and they're never getting on a wide body? Golly, GE and RR must never have issues with their engines then. Oh, like how the ice crystals in the RR engine caused the BA crash? The GE90 being a dog in its early years and almost a massive failure? The RR grounding of the 787s a few years back? Nah, those don't count.
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 pm

cpd wrote:
Maybe the only way for them is to team up with an outsider, not one of the big two and work on some totally disruptive plane and engine combination.

That’s risky and expensive.


I assume you are implying they team up with Boom. Their military experience would certainly help them, even if Boom's specs are likely unattainable.
 
User avatar
crimsonchin
Posts: 576
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:29 pm

They may have to be content with being the 3rd option on A&B's next WB offerings. I don't see either Airbus or Boeing being confident in having P&W as the primary engine supplier or even 2nd option on their next programme.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22666
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:32 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
Max Q wrote:
If their GTF is truly scalable to any thrust level that could be their entry back in to the widebody market


Only after all the bugs are worked out on the narrow body side of the house first and the engine matures to where the airlines are comfortable with the reliability.

It took longer than plan, but 99.98% dispatch reliability is a step change:
https://50skyshades.com/news/manufactur ... -Jets%20E2.

The fact it took years and the shutdown due to Covid-19 to create capacity... In my opinion bearing and thus seal velocities were too advanced. Pratt has that tech now, but a minor advantage.

The GTF scales wonderfully. In fact risk reduces with size. But reputation was hurt...

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:02 am

It's sorta amusing how you downplay systemic issues, while exaggerating spot incidents.

UA444 wrote:
and almost a massive failure?

Tell us more about the value of "almost," in terms of aviation sales... this'll be an interesting convo.

Ya know, like how the pax 747 almost didn't get made. Or how Concorde almost had 103 orders.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:44 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
Max Q wrote:
If their GTF is truly scalable to any thrust level that could be their entry back in to the widebody market


Only after all the bugs are worked out on the narrow body side of the house first and the engine matures to where the airlines are comfortable with the reliability.

It took longer than plan, but 99.98% dispatch reliability is a step change:
https://50skyshades.com/news/manufactur ... -Jets%20E2.

The fact it took years and the shutdown due to Covid-19 to create capacity... In my opinion bearing and thus seal velocities were too advanced. Pratt has that tech now, but a minor advantage.

The GTF scales wonderfully. In fact risk reduces with size. But reputation was hurt...

Lightsaber


Reputation plays a large role in aviation...but that is a very good dispatch reliability rate. It has improved a good deal. Thank you for the recent data.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4536
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:51 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
Going back to the early 1970s P&W was the only option on the 747-100 with the JT9D, they also had the JT8D on the 727,737 and DC-9 and the JT3D on the developed versions of the 707 and DC-8 - GE and RR had a few niche products (e.g. CV990, One-Eleven etc.) but P&W almost owned the commercial jet engine market.
Granted it was a long time ago but how could a company in such a dominant position get it so wrong over the years?


The same way it will happen to Airbus and Boeing themselves if you do not react soon enough to disruptive development. JT3D and JT8D were VERY outdated by the early 1980s, even in the decent selling MD80 series. Also the JT9D was not that improvable.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Doesn't really matter what PW's plans are, so much as why would Boeing/Airbus/etc have any reason to take a risk on them, after so many screw-ups in the widebody segment?

PW4098? PW4173? PW4090 emissions?

Big reason the OEMs have been gun shy-- PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?


You forgot about the PW4172 - best 68k engine out there.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:11 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Doesn't really matter what PW's plans are, so much as why would Boeing/Airbus/etc have any reason to take a risk on them, after so many screw-ups in the widebody segment?

PW4098? PW4173? PW4090 emissions?

Big reason the OEMs have been gun shy-- PW hasn't been on an all-new widebody in more than a quarter century, and for what reason would that change?


You forgot about the PW4172 - best 68k engine out there.

Inherently covered in the 2nd engine mentioned......
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
texl1649
Posts: 1845
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:19 pm

They’re still making 767 engines for the KC-46. LOL.

Reminder on the GTF side that GE (Avios) actually makes that gearbox. We are well inside the 10 year window of Pratt patents expiring and GE/RR racing to make widebody GTF’s as well. I’d expect sooner than later. Of course Pratt doesn’t own all exclusionary patents on geared designs, yet a lot of the ideal ratios I think they have to themselves for a limited number of years/months now.

viewtopic.php?t=549749

https://aeroturbopower.blogspot.com/202 ... bofan.html
 
Breathe
Topic Author
Posts: 829
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Pratt & Whitney - Future widebody engine?

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:49 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
Going back to the early 1970s P&W was the only option on the 747-100 with the JT9D, they also had the JT8D on the 727,737 and DC-9 and the JT3D on the developed versions of the 707 and DC-8 - GE and RR had a few niche products (e.g. CV990, One-Eleven etc.) but P&W almost owned the commercial jet engine market.
Granted it was a long time ago but how could a company in such a dominant position get it so wrong over the years?


The same way it will happen to Airbus and Boeing themselves if you do not react soon enough to disruptive development. JT3D and JT8D were VERY outdated by the early 1980s, even in the decent selling MD80 series. Also the JT9D was not that improvable.

The JT9D does sound pretty cool on take off, so it least its got that going for it. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgqxk-FDie0

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos