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ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:18 am

marcelh wrote:
What about a MMRT based on the A330NEO?


My understanding is that the problem with such an aircraft is the wing hose points. The MRTT uses the points in the wing that the A340 hung engines on. So they're already strengthened and easily plumbed for fuel. However this is a problem any new MRTT would have as the wing was refined to drop that stuff when the A340 was finally retired.

So maybe, but probably only when the A330 CEO line is properly closed down.
 
DCA350
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:07 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
I like to imagine that there is a market for a lengthened A330-900Neo to the -500 fuselage length and somewhat shortened range based around the current highest gross weight A330-900Neo version. I suppose that a -600 fuselage length could technically work, but, I don't think the drastic range reduction that amount of extra structural weight would leave the plane useful for many airlines. Sometimes, you need to move a whole heap of people just a couple thousand miles and not half way around the world...


Interesting concept but I imagine using a simple stretch of the A350 would be better for such a mission.. A350K length with the A359 wing/landing gear, engines and weights.. Would be an incredible 773 replacement but how big of a market is that..
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:43 am

SEPilot wrote:
the A330NEO with no real advantage in any way over the 787. The 787 is lighter, more efficient, lower maintenance, and longer range than the A330NEO (although not by large margins).

Wait, what??

Almost none of what you just said in that (blanket) statement is true when comparing A339 vs 78X; and still some of it isn't when comparing A338 vs 789. See Reply#27.
 
MUCFan
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:26 am

LAX772LR wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
the A330NEO with no real advantage in any way over the 787. The 787 is lighter, more efficient, lower maintenance, and longer range than the A330NEO (although not by large margins).

Wait, what??

Almost none of what you just said in that (blanket) statement is true when comparing A339 vs 78X; and still some of it isn't when comparing A338 vs 789. See Reply#27.


He also seems to forget the ca. 1500 A330CEOs built, so for a CEO customer it might be compelling to get some NEOs in the future.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:42 am

I could see further development when sales start to pick up.

It is important to note, that the A330neo came at a very awkward time. An incredible amount of 330ceo were produced and delivered in the late 2000s and specially early 2010s. About 50% of 330ceo were delivered after 2010.

Boeing delivered around 1000 787 from 2010 to 2021 while airbus delivered around 1000 330ceo 2007 to 2018. The really interesting time for wide body aircraft will start from 2025+ when big amount of ceo and soon to follow 787 will start to reach 20years of age and some operators will start replacing said aircraft.

If the 330ceo was able to hold delivery parity against the 787 for most of the time due to massive demand in wide body aircraft I can see the 330neo doing the same when demand for wide body aircraft reaches a the level of 2010-2015 again.

So if Airbus thinks it is benefitial for the sales to increase the capacity of the 330neo to be even better when sales campaigns will pick up, Airbus will do so.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:07 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
marcelh wrote:
What about a MMRT based on the A330NEO?


My understanding is that the problem with such an aircraft is the wing hose points. The MRTT uses the points in the wing that the A340 hung engines on. So they're already strengthened and easily plumbed for fuel. However this is a problem any new MRTT would have as the wing was refined to drop that stuff when the A340 was finally retired.

So maybe, but probably only when the A330 CEO line is properly closed down.

Other issue is a lot of certification tests for a MRTT would have to be repeated, since the wake properties for the Neo are different than the CEO due to the different engines and wingtips. Wake of course is very important when you have other aircraft flying in close proximity for refueling.

MRTTs are all fairly new and most countries have small tanker fleets. The MRTT got off the ground because the EU collectively bulk ordered. That won’t happen again in the near future, a NEO MRTT only has a chance if they win something like a USAF contract.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:24 am

Polot wrote:
Other issue is a lot of certification tests for a MRTT would have to be repeated, since the wake properties for the Neo are different than the CEO due to the different engines and wingtips. Wake of course is very important when you have other aircraft flying in close proximity for refueling.

MRTTs are all fairly new and most countries have small tanker fleets. The MRTT got off the ground because the EU collectively bulk ordered. That won’t happen again in the near future, a NEO MRTT only has a chance if they win something like a USAF contract.


There is already multiple engine types available for the tanker, the level of thrust being produced is about the same for any engine type.
 
DartHerald
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:48 am

I'm no aerodynamacist, but won't the larger size of the Neo engines have a more significant effect on the wake turbulance than their thrust which, as you say, is about the same for all types?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:56 am

There is a proposal for a 30 ton lighter variant of the A330-800 - the least selling variant in the lineup.

If true, This might make it popular as a true regional widebody.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:00 am

DartHerald wrote:
I'm no aerodynamacist, but won't the larger size of the Neo engines have a more significant effect on the wake turbulance than their thrust which, as you say, is about the same for all types?


Should be less, effectively same thrust is spread over a larger area. The velocity of the exhaust compared to freestream air would then be lower.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:36 am

zeke wrote:
DartHerald wrote:
I'm no aerodynamacist, but won't the larger size of the Neo engines have a more significant effect on the wake turbulance than their thrust which, as you say, is about the same for all types?


Should be less, effectively same thrust is spread over a larger area. The velocity of the exhaust compared to freestream air would then be lower.

I never said the wake turbulence is an obstacle that makes it impossible. But it still needs to be tested and certified which costs money, because as I said they are different. No government is going to order 1 or 2 MRTT neos when they have a large new fleet of MRTT ceos, and most nations are not ordering enough to cover the development (ie adding A340 hardware back to A330neo wing with A330neo wingtip) and certification costs.
 
marcelh
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:51 am

Polot wrote:
MRTTs are all fairly new and most countries have small tanker fleets. The MRTT got off the ground because the EU collectively bulk ordered.


The EU hasn't bought a single A330 MRTT. 6 European NATO members have ordered collectively 9 MRTT (first in 2016) and will become the Multinational MRTT Fleet (MMF). And it came of the ground because Australia ordered the A330 MRTT in 2005. The UK - first European country - ordered 14 in 2008 and France ordered 12 in 2014.

a NEO MRTT only has a chance if they win something like a USAF contract.

And we all know that won't happen.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:20 am

Polot wrote:
I never said the wake turbulence is an obstacle that makes it impossible. But it still needs to be tested and certified which costs money, because as I said they are different. No government is going to order 1 or 2 MRTT neos when they have a large new fleet of MRTT ceos, and most nations are not ordering enough to cover the development (ie adding A340 hardware back to A330neo wing with A330neo wingtip) and certification costs.


You are misguided, receiver qualification is not part of the tanker certification, that is a receiver operational clearance process, eg the USN went through a clearance process to tank against the RAAF tankers.

A340 hardware was removed from A330 wings some time back, on all tanker it involves placing some structure inside the wing where the pods are. As for the new winglets, they also reduce turbulence, the who idea of them is to reduce drag, i.e. reduce turbulence.

marcelh wrote:
And we all know that won't happen.


Boeing has yet to deliver a 767 based tanker that meets the spec, not one of them is cleared for operational duties and will not be for some time yet, meanwhile A330 tankers have been cleared and used for operational duties including to USAF, USN, USMC receivers. So I would like to know how you "know" what will or will not happen.
 
randomdude83
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:24 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
I like to imagine that there is a market for a lengthened A330-900Neo to the -500 fuselage length and somewhat shortened range based around the current highest gross weight A330-900Neo version. I suppose that a -600 fuselage length could technically work, but, I don't think the drastic range reduction that amount of extra structural weight would leave the plane useful for many airlines. Sometimes, you need to move a whole heap of people just a couple thousand miles and not half way around the world...


Stretching the A330 would not bring any benefit unless airbus puts in more exist doors.

If I’m not mistaken the A333 and -900 have the same exist limit as the a346.

I believe we have operators out there that are operating the a330 at its exit limit (430+ seats) so stretching would add weight that can’t be used.

Only one path to A330s, lose weight, get more efficient engines.

The idea of offering 4 pw1100 is intriguing to me. It gives operators the ability to interchange their engines with the a320s. It reduces ETOPs costs and gives airbus a chance to sell the customers to get both a320 and a340.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:28 am

zeke wrote:
marcelh wrote:
And we all know that won't happen.


Boeing has yet to deliver a 767 based tanker that meets the spec, not one of them is cleared for operational duties and will not be for some time yet, meanwhile A330 tankers have been cleared and used for operational duties including to USAF, USN, USMC receivers. So I would like to know how you "know" what will or will not happen.

The KC-46 is cleared for limited operations. It can refuel certain US aircraft in operational missions. The USAF just doesn’t consider the aircraft fully operational and clear.

And the reason for his statement is obvious- these aircraft decisions are based on politics. And there a A330neo has an uphill battle against more KC-46s, and even the A330MRTT (ceo) since the NEO has RRs instead of GEs or PWs hanging under the wing.

randomdude83 wrote:

Stretching the A330 would not bring any benefit unless airbus puts in more exist doors.

Well no, because most operators are not stuffing their planes with max number of seats. But as I said earlier stretching the A330 starts to intrude more into A350 space.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:42 am

randomdude83 wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I like to imagine that there is a market for a lengthened A330-900Neo to the -500 fuselage length and somewhat shortened range based around the current highest gross weight A330-900Neo version. I suppose that a -600 fuselage length could technically work, but, I don't think the drastic range reduction that amount of extra structural weight would leave the plane useful for many airlines. Sometimes, you need to move a whole heap of people just a couple thousand miles and not half way around the world...


Stretching the A330 would not bring any benefit unless airbus puts in more exist doors.

If I’m not mistaken the A333 and -900 have the same exist limit as the a346.

I believe we have operators out there that are operating the a330 at its exit limit (430+ seats) so stretching would add weight that can’t be used. .


That is with 9 abreast seating at 28/29" pitch, something few airlines would want to do. An A345 length A330 would not run into exit limit problems at all even in an all Y layout in 8AB. So anything but a minimum pitch 9AB config could make use of extra length.
Lack of market would be the problem.

best regards
Thomas
 
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ro1960
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:07 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
There is a proposal for a 30 ton lighter variant of the A330-800 - the least selling variant in the lineup.

If true, This might make it popular as a true regional widebody.


It’s actually 50 tons lighter. I posted a link further up thread.
 
Niloko
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:15 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
the A330NEO with no real advantage in any way over the 787. The 787 is lighter, more efficient, lower maintenance, and longer range than the A330NEO (although not by large margins).

Wait, what??

Almost none of what you just said in that (blanket) statement is true when comparing A339 vs 78X; and still some of it isn't when comparing A338 vs 789. See Reply#27.

Why are you comparing 78X that seats more than A350-900 with A339 tho? Am I missing something here
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:26 pm

Reference to an A345-length neo is strange to me.

AIRC the 345 was stretched a little from the 343 length more for technical than capacity reasons, to balance the weight of the RR engines from a CoG perspective, The 339 does not appear to need this over the 333, so the small stretch to 345 length would seem to me to create rather than resolve a problem.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:38 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
Stretching the A330 would not bring any benefit unless airbus puts in more exist doors.


There were some discussions previously with US package carriers for a stretched A330.

Polot wrote:
The KC-46 is cleared for limited operations. It can refuel certain US aircraft in operational missions. The USAF just doesn’t consider the aircraft fully operational and clear.


“Air Force leaders have asserted the service will not declare the KC-46 operational until all its critical technical deficiencies are resolved. The program currently has six category 1 deficiencies on the books. Those issues impose a risk to either safety or operations.” https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -missions/

They do not meet specification.

This is in contrast with the A330 which is fully operational, had orders in the past year or so from Egypt, Turkey, Spain, Canada, and Brazil.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:43 pm

zeke wrote:
“Air Force leaders have asserted the service will not declare the KC-46 operational until all its critical technical deficiencies are resolved. The program currently has six category 1 deficiencies on the books. Those issues impose a risk to either safety or operations.” https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -missions/

They do not meet specification.

And the title of the airticle you posted is…”Boeing’s KC-46 can now use its refueling boom for operational missions”.

The first missions were performed earlier this month: https://www.airforcemag.com/kc-46s-firs ... ort-kabul/

Nothing you said disputes what I said: the KC-46 is cleared for limited operations (and has performed some) but the USAF does not consider the aircraft fully operational and clear (because it does not yet fully meet specs).

Not sure why you are taking about orders, that is of zero concern to the USAF. They alone ordered 27 KC-46s in February which by itself is over a third of the MRTT’s total orderbook.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:55 pm

Polot wrote:
Not sure why you are taking about orders


Because this is a thread about the A330neo developments, the widespread acceptance by so many nations now of the A330 airframe in every competition. It is winning on its merits and proven capability, not due to politics.

It is only natural in y view that the tanker and freighter will see new engine options, it is simple leveraging on the investment they have already made.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:07 pm

zeke wrote:
Polot wrote:
Not sure why you are taking about orders


Because this is a thread about the A330neo developments, the widespread acceptance by so many nations now of the A330 airframe in every competition. It is winning on its merits and proven capability, not due to politics.

It is only natural in y view that the tanker and freighter will see new engine options, it is simple leveraging on the investment they have already made.

You are proving my point however, that most countries have small tanker fleets which makes investing in a Neo MRTT questionable over just sticking with and continuing the A330ceo based MRTT. Especially since used passenger planes can and have been converted to MRTTs. A Neo MRTT really only makes sense if it nets a huge contract, and the USAF is really the only option for that right now.

The MRTT’s customer base is wide, but it is not very deep. In contrast the KC-46’s customer base is extremely narrow, but is very deep- it’s order total is currently almost double that of the MRTT’s.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:15 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Reference to an A345-length neo is strange to me.

AIRC the 345 was stretched a little from the 343 length more for technical than capacity reasons, to balance the weight of the RR engines from a CoG perspective, The 339 does not appear to need this over the 333, so the small stretch to 345 length would seem to me to create rather than resolve a problem.


I agree, an extra 4-5 meters only really gets you an additional 4 rows in economy, 3 rows in business, or maybe two rows in first. In an 8 abreast configuration, 32 extra passengers may not make it worth it.

I suggested the -500 length because the platform had already been developed for that, suggesting reduced development costs were possible.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:46 pm

Jetport wrote:
In the current competitive environment the A330NEO will struggle to be cash flow positive. The A330NEO will be a test to determine if Airbus is really a for profit capitalist corporation, or still an EU consortium. For profit companies don't continue to manufacture unprofitable products just to maintain employment levels or to reduce a competitors profits.

There will be no more development of the A330 if Airbus behaves like a rational capitalist corporation.


That's a sentiment that didn't get much in the way of comment, which is unfortunate.

Two words for you: launch aid

What makes an airplane fly? Money. It's even 'better' when that's somebody else's money that has flexible repayment dates and obligations. Don't sell the expected volume - don't pay back all the money! In that environment one gets uneconomic projects because capital discipline isn't required. But you get (hollow) prestige and employment in Hamburg and Toulouse, and politicians look like they're doing something.

It's not 1970. If Airbus had to borrow at market rates and terms - banks want all their money + interest, no matter how many you sell - it might approach commercial segments differently.

One can spent infinite money tending to a sick horse. Or one can shoot it. I know how Blackstone would run Airbus.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:22 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
marcelh wrote:
What about a MMRT based on the A330NEO?


My understanding is that the problem with such an aircraft is the wing hose points. The MRTT uses the points in the wing that the A340 hung engines on. So they're already strengthened and easily plumbed for fuel. However this is a problem any new MRTT would have as the wing was refined to drop that stuff when the A340 was finally retired.

So maybe, but probably only when the A330 CEO line is properly closed down.

From memory, when the A340 line was shut down, only the plumbing was removed from the wing, not the strengthening; if that's correct, it's rather easy to revert those changes for an A330neo MRTT.

Can someone confirm?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:46 pm

Polot wrote:
most countries have small tanker fleets which makes investing in a Neo MRTT questionable over just sticking with and continuing the A330ceo based MRTT. Especially since used passenger planes can and have been converted to MRTTs. A Neo MRTT really only makes sense if it nets a huge contract, and the USAF is really the only option for that right now.



All of which makes the assumption that these decisions have to be made right now. They do not. The 330NEO will be a very long lived project.

Consider... Neither AB nor BCA have the desire or funding available to continue reinventing wheels every one and a half decades. What replaces the 330N in AB's large twin lineup will be a PIP'd NEO. Ditto the VLA segment. What replaces BCA's 777X will be more 777Xs. The desire to spend countless billions chasing after improvements that can easily be duplicated by extending the original families is simply no longer there.

While it was suspected that this would be the case, it was made plain to AB that things will take a turn for the long-lived when it became clear that there is almost nothing the 787 offers that justify its cost disadvantage over the 330NEO. It is logical for them to suspect that any clean sheet they built to compete with the 787 family will run into the same issue.

What that means for things like the MRTT is that there will be a lot of time for the Air Forces of the world to look into an MRTT. AB can wait a decade or more to develop this if they so chose. Time is on their side.

Niloko wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
the A330NEO with no real advantage in any way over the 787. The 787 is lighter, more efficient, lower maintenance, and longer range than the A330NEO (although not by large margins).

Wait, what??

Almost none of what you just said in that (blanket) statement is true when comparing A339 vs 78X; and still some of it isn't when comparing A338 vs 789. See Reply#27.

Why are you comparing 78X that seats more than A350-900 with A339 tho? Am I missing something here


This is not true. The exit limit for the A359 is 440. This is the same as the 787-10. And the A339.

Putting the A339 up against a 787-10 is fair.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:53 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What that means for things like the MRTT is that there will be a lot of time for the Air Forces of the world to look into an MRTT. AB can wait a decade or more to develop this if they so chose. Time is on their side.

Time isn’t forever on their side. They have to make sure that the plane gets enough orders to continue production. If not they have to make decisions on whether it is better to invest in the A330Neo to make it more attractive, or start focusing resources on other programs like future A350 variants.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
This is not true. The exit limit for the A359 is 440. This is the same as the 787-10. And the A339.

Putting the A339 up against a 787-10 is fair.


Again, that is only relevant for ultra high density ULCCs (which are still a tiny minority of wide body buyers). For your typical customer a 787-10 will seat more than a A339, because airlines usually run out of space to put seats in their widebodies before they hit exit limitations. Just look at the difference in the number of seats in a SQ A333 vs SQ 787-10 (both having a “regional” product).

Airlines will evaluate the A339 against the 787-10…but in most cases the 787-10 will seat more. The airline has to decide if the extra cost and extra seats in the 787-10 are worth it.
 
oceanvikram
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:10 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Jetport wrote:
In the current competitive environment the A330NEO will struggle to be cash flow positive. The A330NEO will be a test to determine if Airbus is really a for profit capitalist corporation, or still an EU consortium. For profit companies don't continue to manufacture unprofitable products just to maintain employment levels or to reduce a competitors profits.

There will be no more development of the A330 if Airbus behaves like a rational capitalist corporation.


That's a sentiment that didn't get much in the way of comment, which is unfortunate.

Two words for you: launch aid

What makes an airplane fly? Money. It's even 'better' when that's somebody else's money that has flexible repayment dates and obligations. Don't sell the expected volume - don't pay back all the money! In that environment one gets uneconomic projects because capital discipline isn't required. But you get (hollow) prestige and employment in Hamburg and Toulouse, and politicians look like they're doing something.

It's not 1970. If Airbus had to borrow at market rates and terms - banks want all their money + interest, no matter how many you sell - it might approach commercial segments differently.

One can spent infinite money tending to a sick horse. Or one can shoot it. I know how Blackstone would run Airbus.



I thought you guys are aviation enthusiasts, wanting to see as many types of aircrafts in the air that are engineering marvels? Does it really matter how the launch aid comes? EU has a different culture to the States and most those countries are high taxed nations. If you believe in democracy, well the Europeans will vote for not supporting Airbus if so they wish. And as far as I am aware the WTO, all in all, have sided with Boeing.

Sure the the A330 can be further developed beyond the NEOs. It's a great aircraft for those of us who sit at the back (2-4-2, not considering LCC configuration). But unfortunately the more they develop it, it will be encroaching on the A350.

Maybe Airbus can consider developing A300-900NEO and can the A330-800NEO.
 
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keesje
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:34 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Jetport wrote:
In the current competitive environment the A330NEO will struggle to be cash flow positive. The A330NEO will be a test to determine if Airbus is really a for profit capitalist corporation, or still an EU consortium. For profit companies don't continue to manufacture unprofitable products just to maintain employment levels or to reduce a competitors profits.

There will be no more development of the A330 if Airbus behaves like a rational capitalist corporation.


That's a sentiment that didn't get much in the way of comment, which is unfortunate.

Two words for you: launch aid

What makes an airplane fly? Money. It's even 'better' when that's somebody else's money that has flexible repayment dates and obligations. Don't sell the expected volume - don't pay back all the money! In that environment one gets uneconomic projects because capital discipline isn't required. But you get (hollow) prestige and employment in Hamburg and Toulouse, and politicians look like they're doing something.

It's not 1970. If Airbus had to borrow at market rates and terms - banks want all their money + interest, no matter how many you sell - it might approach commercial segments differently.

One can spent infinite money tending to a sick horse. Or one can shoot it. I know how Blackstone would run Airbus.



I thought you guys are aviation enthusiasts, wanting to see as many types of aircrafts in the air that are engineering marvels? Does it really matter how the launch aid comes? EU has a different culture to the States and most those countries are high taxed nations. If you believe in democracy, well the Europeans will vote for not supporting Airbus if so they wish. And as far as I am aware the WTO, all in all, have sided with Boeing.

Sure the the A330 can be further developed beyond the NEOs. It's a great aircraft for those of us who sit at the back (2-4-2, not considering LCC configuration). But unfortunately the more they develop it, it will be encroaching on the A350.

Maybe Airbus can consider developing A300-900NEO and can the A330-800NEO.


Indeed both EU and US are democracies. One of them is a bit of a military society, where huge amounts of money are pushed into aerospace & job creation is at the forefront of the efforts. WTO has ruled both parties to have subsidized their industries & both declared victory. https://www.dw.com/en/wto-rules-against ... a-48105904

On the A330, I seen it seen it being killed by competition so often over the last 20 years I'll keep quiet. :)
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:43 pm

Polot wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What that means for things like the MRTT is that there will be a lot of time for the Air Forces of the world to look into an MRTT. AB can wait a decade or more to develop this if they so chose. Time is on their side.

Time isn’t forever on their side. They have to make sure that the plane gets enough orders to continue production. If not they have to make decisions on whether it is better to invest in the A330Neo to make it more attractive, or start focusing resources on other programs like future A350 variants.


The sales of the 358 made clear that that is not overtly adaptable to the mid/large twin market. That leaves coming up with a new design for the 339 class. Which would be considerably more expensive than doing what they have to do to keep the 339 attractive, which thankfully, is not much.




Polot wrote:
Again, that is only relevant for ultra high density ULCCs (which are still a tiny minority of wide body buyers).

It is relevant to any carrier in that market as it reflects on the overall capacity and flexibility. The 787-10 does indeed suffer here. Utilizing the same number of seats, the 787-10 will weigh more per PAX than the 339 and hit a very steep payload/range drop first. This does put the 787-10 into a more regional role, where again, it is more airplane for the same lift as the 339NEO.

I also do not think we will see a large number of 440 seat 787-10s. But this is primarily a feature of them being non-competitive against a 339NEO in that role more than anything else.



Polot wrote:
Airlines will evaluate the A339 against the 787-10…but in most cases the 787-10 will seat more. The airline has to decide if the extra cost and extra seats in the 787-10 are worth it.


BCA will need to improve its payload range. Even in lesser dense configurations, the seating difference is not significant, and for the same number of seats, you can have the much more capable 789. I observed this most poignantly when EK went for that over the 787-10. They will not be likely using it on very long routes, except where they are also very thin. Their regional operations would seemed to have greatly favored the 10.

We can look for large umbers of new 339NEO orders at the end of the decade as a lot of the Asian carriers servicing high density regional routes begin to replace their older 333s & 772/77Es.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:37 pm

Niloko wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Almost none of what you just said in that (blanket) statement is true when comparing A339 vs 78X; and still some of it isn't when comparing A338 vs 789. See Reply#27.

Why are you comparing 78X that seats more than A350-900 with A339 tho? Am I missing something here

Yes, you are: particularly seeing as A339 has a higher maximum seating certification than the 78X.... alongside the fact that their weights (particularly OEW) are virtually the same.

Primary differences are that 78X offers more cargo volume and higher max payload uplift than A339; whereas A339 can fly its max payload (~46tonnes) nearly 800nm beyond what 78X can do with that weight.



DarkSnowyNight wrote:
The exit limit for the A359 is 440. This is the same as the 787-10. And the A339.

Slight correction: 460 seats on the A339.

Was increased in June 2019, with the modified doors. Cebu Pacific was the first to order.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:48 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Polot wrote:
Again, that is only relevant for ultra high density ULCCs (which are still a tiny minority of wide body buyers).

It is relevant to any carrier in that market as it reflects on the overall capacity and flexibility. The 787-10 does indeed suffer here. Utilizing the same number of seats, the 787-10 will weigh more per PAX than the 339 and hit a very steep payload/range drop first. This does put the 787-10 into a more regional role, where again, it is more airplane for the same lift as the 339NEO.

I also do not think we will see a large number of 440 seat 787-10s. But this is primarily a feature of them being non-competitive against a 339NEO in that role more than anything else.


This ignores things like a A339neo with the same amount of lift (in terms of passengers) as a 787-10 has a different customer experience than the 787. 9Y on the 787 and 8Y on the A330 is currently considered max acceptable by premium carrier, yet 9Y is needed on the A330 to gain max seating numbers. So a A339 with the same amount of lift as a 787-10 is either less premium heavy or pushing Y experience into a territory that only ULCCs are currently comfortable with.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
BCA will need to improve its payload range. Even in lesser dense configurations, the seating difference is not significant, and for the same number of seats, you can have the much more capable 789. I observed this most poignantly when EK went for that over the 787-10. They will not be likely using it on very long routes, except where they are also very thin. Their regional operations would seemed to have greatly favored the 10.

We can look for large umbers of new 339NEO orders at the end of the decade as a lot of the Asian carriers servicing high density regional routes begin to replace their older 333s & 772/77Es.


EK has other concerns, ie hot and high performance. Yes they ultimately went with 789s over 78Xs…but they also decided to drop initial plans to order the A339 too. I personally believe they decided to push what they considered “regional” and opted for more long range flexibility than saddling themselves with a purely regional aircraft.

I don’t think banking on Asian (or any) carriers to save your plane in 10 years is a good strategy. Who knows what will be available and what airlines will want at the end of the decade. How long were we told China was going to be the A380’s savior?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:53 pm

Polot wrote:
This ignores things like a A339neo with the same amount of lift (in terms of passengers) as a 787-10 has a different customer experience than the 787.

Ignoring of course that the number of airlines for whom "passenger experience" ranks as more than an afterthought in purchase decisions, is countable on one hand.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:56 pm

The original poster asked a question.....the discussion is now far afield.

I do not believe the A330 will be developed further. It is a great airplane and was recently refreshed with the NEO. There were too many widebodies in service BEFORE Covid. There are FAR too many in service now. Many are stored. It will be an achievement (miracle?) for all 4 wide body programs (2 Airbus and 2 Boeing - A330N, A350, B787, B777x) to survive at all. Commercial aviation and the world economy are a train wreck imho.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:01 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Polot wrote:
This ignores things like a A339neo with the same amount of lift (in terms of passengers) as a 787-10 has a different customer experience than the 787.

Ignoring of course that the number of airlines for whom "passenger experience" ranks as more than an afterthought in purchase decisions, is countable on one hand.

Airlines have their limits. How many are operating A330s at 9Y versus 8Y? How many are operating A350s at 10Y vs 9Y? What types of carriers are the ones operating A330s at 9Y and A350s at 10Y vs 8/9Y respectively? Most carriers draw the line at 17” wide seats and don’t want to go below that.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:54 pm

Polot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Polot wrote:
This ignores things like a A339neo with the same amount of lift (in terms of passengers) as a 787-10 has a different customer experience than the 787.

Ignoring of course that the number of airlines for whom "passenger experience" ranks as more than an afterthought in purchase decisions, is countable on one hand.

Airlines have their limits. How many are operating A330s at 9Y versus 8Y? How many are operating A350s at 10Y vs 9Y? What types of carriers are the ones operating A330s at 9Y and A350s at 10Y vs 8/9Y respectively? Most carriers draw the line at 17” wide seats and don’t want to go below that.

What does that tangent have to do with the quoted statement....?
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:56 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Polot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Ignoring of course that the number of airlines for whom "passenger experience" ranks as more than an afterthought in purchase decisions, is countable on one hand.

Airlines have their limits. How many are operating A330s at 9Y versus 8Y? How many are operating A350s at 10Y vs 9Y? What types of carriers are the ones operating A330s at 9Y and A350s at 10Y vs 8/9Y respectively? Most carriers draw the line at 17” wide seats and don’t want to go below that.

What does that tangent have to do with the quoted statement....?

Because if you continued reading the paragraph you would have noted “passenger experience” was in reference to number of seats abreast in Y and ratio of premium to Y class on the plane. Context is important. With my response I was trying to clarify my original stance by making you think about the answers to those question. If you realized from the beginning that I mean seat width and amount of premium seats and not how nice the FAs are or how good the food is, things obviously irrelevant to aircraft, and still made that sentence, then I’m not the one going off on a tangent…
Last edited by Polot on Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:19 pm

Polot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Polot wrote:
Airlines have their limits. How many are operating A330s at 9Y versus 8Y? How many are operating A350s at 10Y vs 9Y? What types of carriers are the ones operating A330s at 9Y and A350s at 10Y vs 8/9Y respectively? Most carriers draw the line at 17” wide seats and don’t want to go below that.

What does that tangent have to do with the quoted statement....?

Because if you continued reading the paragraph you would have noted “passenger experience” was in reference to number of seats abreast in Y and ratio of premium to Y class on the plane. Context is important.

So is application, which goes right back to what I said earlier: the number of airlines for whom that's a factor, can be counted on one hand at best; and in contrast to your expression in Reply#86, lately almost always comes down in Airbus' favor.

So yes, I'd call that a tangent.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:23 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Polot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What does that tangent have to do with the quoted statement....?

Because if you continued reading the paragraph you would have noted “passenger experience” was in reference to number of seats abreast in Y and ratio of premium to Y class on the plane. Context is important.

So is application, which goes right back to the point expressed: the number of airlines for whom that's a factor, can be counted on one hand at best; and in contrast to your point in Reply#86, lately almost always comes down in Airbus' favor.

Exactly. Which means only comparing the A330 and 787 at max seat counts and not acknowledging that at typical layouts the 78X will have more is not the greatest comparison. Orders for A339 or the 78X show a preference for neither, since when you start removing the probably dead orders from the A339’s book they are starting to approach parity.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:26 pm

Polot wrote:
Which means only comparing the A330 and 787 at max seat counts

But no one is "only" doing that, so.....
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:47 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
The exit limit for the A359 is 440. This is the same as the 787-10. And the A339.

Slight correction: 460 seats on the A339.

Was increased in June 2019, with the modified doors. Cebu Pacific was the first to order.


I saw that, but was not certain it had already been so updated. . .

Polot wrote:
This ignores things like a A339neo with the same amount of lift (in terms of passengers) as a 787-10 has a different customer experience than the 787. 9Y on the 787 and 8Y on the A330 is currently considered max acceptable by premium carrier, yet 9Y is needed on the A330 to gain max seating numbers. So a A339 with the same amount of lift as a 787-10 is either less premium heavy or pushing Y experience into a territory that only ULCCs are currently comfortable with.


I truly wish that mattered. But there is a vanishing difference between the premium and ULCC lines. It was not so long ago that 10 across 777s were a rarity. I do certainly hope we have finally hit bottom on that one, but there is not much cause for optimism when contemplating the customer experience for most airlines.

Polot wrote:
EK has other concerns, ie hot and high performance. Yes they ultimately went with 789s over 78Xs…but they also decided to drop initial plans to order the A339 too. I personally believe they decided to push what they considered “regional” and opted for more long range flexibility than saddling themselves with a purely regional aircraft.


I think this has as much to do with being able to get out of their earlier 777X commitments as anything else. Yes, the 789 absolutely has better range than the 787-10, and having the flexibility to sub in a 789 on a long thin ULR route is very useful and not feasible with a 787-10.

Not sure H&H is any better than a 339NEO, however. At MTOW, the 789 has very slight disadvantage WRT power-to-weight. But it is nearly 1000sq ft smaller in wing area. In what way would that form an advantage for H&H for the 789? I really do think it was a combination of range flexibility and BCA discounting that won that order...

Polot wrote:
I don’t think banking on Asian (or any) carriers to save your plane in 10 years is a good strategy. Who knows what will be available and what airlines will want at the end of the decade. How long were we told China was going to be the A380’s savior?


Do you foresee other entrants in that size category by the end of the decade? I am having a difficult time imagining what that would look like.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:18 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Not sure H&H is any better than a 339NEO, however. At MTOW, the 789 has very slight disadvantage WRT power-to-weight. But it is nearly 1000sq ft smaller in wing area. In what way would that form an advantage for H&H for the 789? I really do think it was a combination of range flexibility and BCA discounting that won that order...

I’m not sure exactly sure if I’m interpreting your comparison correctly but the 787 does not have a 1000 sq ft smaller wing area than the A330. That’s greater than the wing area difference between the 787 and the A350…

Im basing my numbers off Ferpe’s old thread btw: viewtopic.php?t=769539

The Neo wing is a little bigger than the Ceo due to the different wingtips, but not that dramatic.

I don’t really think getting out of 777X commitments played anymore of a role for Boeing than getting out of A380 did for Airbus, ie EK had money tied up at both OEMs they wanted to use elsewhere.
 
ScottB
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:39 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
particularly seeing as A339 has a higher maximum seating certification than the 78X.... alongside the fact that their weights (particularly OEW) are virtually the same.


Comparing aircraft based on exit certification limits is frankly ridiculous. Very few carriers, apart from a handful of ULCCs/bottom-of-the-barrel charter operators operate widebodies at densities anywhere near their exit limits. UA operates the 78X with 318 seats (44J/276Y) while DL operates the A339 with 281 seats (29J/252Y) -- these are operators aiming at comparable business segments.
 
744SPX
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:19 pm

ro1960 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
There is a proposal for a 30 ton lighter variant of the A330-800 - the least selling variant in the lineup.

If true, This might make it popular as a true regional widebody.


It’s actually 50 tons lighter. I posted a link further up thread.



That's huge. Could make a really good NMA-type aircraft.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:59 pm

744SPX wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
There is a proposal for a 30 ton lighter variant of the A330-800 - the least selling variant in the lineup.

If true, This might make it popular as a true regional widebody.


It’s actually 50 tons lighter. I posted a link further up thread.



That's huge. Could make a really good NMA-type aircraft.

Note that is just MTOW. The OEW is not 50t lighter- it is still the same ~251t MTOW supporting airframe with a paper limited MTOW and derated engines. Like the A330R (which had a 199t MTOW) it’s a compromised product for very select users. A 201t A330neo range is likely lower than that of a A321XLR (the aforementioned A330R, which was based on the -300, had an advertised range of ~2700nm). Give Airbus and RR some money and they will gladly change your 201t A338 to a fully capable A338 with just some paperwork and software changes.
 
Utah744
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:07 pm

zeke wrote:
DartHerald wrote:
I'm no aerodynamacist, but won't the larger size of the Neo engines have a more significant effect on the wake turbulance than their thrust which, as you say, is about the same for all types?


Should be less, effectively same thrust is spread over a larger area. The velocity of the exhaust compared to freestream air would then be lower.

You would think there would be a nice market for Europe to East coast - East coast to West coast and west coast to Hawaii and then backwards.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:02 pm

I would surmise that doing the A322 would have a much better ROI. Adding 30 pax and 600 NM range would take a big piece of the market where belly freight is low. Where high amount of freight a A330ceo does fine.
 
bbowma77
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:15 pm

I always wondered why Airbus did the A330 neo instead of the optimized A350-800. The development costs couldn't have been that much different so the neo must have had a much lower production cost. And that means the A350 is or was expensive to build
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will the Airbus 330neo be developed further ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:16 pm

ScottB wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
particularly seeing as A339 has a higher maximum seating certification than the 78X.... alongside the fact that their weights (particularly OEW) are virtually the same.


Comparing aircraft based on exit certification limits is frankly ridiculous. Very few carriers, apart from a handful of ULCCs/bottom-of-the-barrel charter operators operate widebodies at densities anywhere near their exit limits. UA operates the 78X with 318 seats (44J/276Y) while DL operates the A339 with 281 seats (29J/252Y) -- these are operators aiming at comparable business segments.

Indeed, but you just demonstrated the reason why max limit (alongside OEW) was used in the context that it was: someone seemed surprised that the aircraft were comparable, and that's the most direct way to show.

Otherwise, the vast differences between airlines' chosen configs and seat types could paint a rather inaccurate presumptive picture.

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