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TC957
Topic Author
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OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:10 pm

Finnair have themselves scrapped OH-LVB and show what can be done by airlines scrapping their own fleets.
Begs the question why don't more airlines scrap their own planes, keep the parts and recycle the rest.
https://simpleflying.com/finnair-airbus-a319-recycled/
 
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Polot
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Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:23 pm

TC957 wrote:
Begs the question why don't more airlines scrap their own planes, keep the parts and recycle the rest.

That’s exactly what most airlines do…

(If they own the plane)
 
kalvado
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Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:30 pm

I wonder how much of that 99% recycling is true recycling and how much is look-good stuff.
Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.
With thermoset matrix, those alone would be a challenge for a meaningful recycling.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1612
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Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:48 pm

The article doesn't go into great depths on what "recycling" means.

Salvage and true recycling, sure. But what else was set aside for "repurposing" that probably still will some day end up in a dump somewhere.
 
toobz
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Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:41 pm

Finns are resourceful. Always have been.
 
kalvado
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Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:47 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
The article doesn't go into great depths on what "recycling" means.

Salvage and true recycling, sure. But what else was set aside for "repurposing" that probably still will some day end up in a dump somewhere.

Even spares that end up unused are replacing spares which could otherwise be ordered new for storage. And sending unused spares for recycling after fleet retirement is still a very realistic option.
 
majano
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:47 pm

kalvado wrote:
I wonder how much of that 99% recycling is true recycling and how much is look-good stuff.
Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.
With thermoset matrix, those alone would be a challenge for a meaningful recycling.

This was a complete surprise and an embarrassment for me. I had assumed that the A320, being a 1980s product, was primarily made from a metal alloy such as aluminium.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12421
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Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:14 pm

majano wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I wonder how much of that 99% recycling is true recycling and how much is look-good stuff.
Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.
With thermoset matrix, those alone would be a challenge for a meaningful recycling.

This was a complete surprise and an embarrassment for me. I had assumed that the A320, being a 1980s product, was primarily made from a metal alloy such as aluminium.

The A320 fuselage is primarily aluminum. The tail is primarily composite. Saying the primary structure of the A320 is composites is a bit misleading, the amount of aluminum on the A320 structure still dwarfs the amount of composites.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:32 pm

Polot wrote:
majano wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I wonder how much of that 99% recycling is true recycling and how much is look-good stuff.
Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.
With thermoset matrix, those alone would be a challenge for a meaningful recycling.

This was a complete surprise and an embarrassment for me. I had assumed that the A320, being a 1980s product, was primarily made from a metal alloy such as aluminium.

The A320 fuselage is primarily aluminum. The tail is primarily composite. Saying the primary structure of the A320 is composites is a bit misleading, the amount of aluminum on the A320 structure still dwarfs the amount of composites.

The A320 is about 28% composite by weight; so, one might want to define "primary structures", although I did find that exact correct on the web.
 
majano
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:32 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
majano wrote:
This was a complete surprise and an embarrassment for me. I had assumed that the A320, being a 1980s product, was primarily made from a metal alloy such as aluminium.

The A320 fuselage is primarily aluminum. The tail is primarily composite. Saying the primary structure of the A320 is composites is a bit misleading, the amount of aluminum on the A320 structure still dwarfs the amount of composites.

The A320 is about 28% composite by weight; so, one might want to define "primary structures", although I did find that exact correct on the web.

Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:43 pm

majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
The A320 fuselage is primarily aluminum. The tail is primarily composite. Saying the primary structure of the A320 is composites is a bit misleading, the amount of aluminum on the A320 structure still dwarfs the amount of composites.

The A320 is about 28% composite by weight; so, one might want to define "primary structures", although I did find that exact correct on the web.

Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.

I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:30 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The A320 is about 28% composite by weight; so, one might want to define "primary structures", although I did find that exact correct on the web.

Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.

I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.

Thanks. So in theory a significant proportion is capable of conventional recycling.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:49 pm

majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.

I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.

Thanks. So in theory a significant proportion is capable of conventional recycling.

Yes, by construction, the A320 is still a relatively conventional aircraft.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:24 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
The A320 is about 28% composite by weight; so, one might want to define "primary structures", although I did find that exact correct on the web.

Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.

I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.

This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:38 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.

I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.

This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?

Thank you. Just veering slightly off-topic but, Interesting to note in the paper that in 1983 there was a prediction of reaching an "all-composite" aircraft in 2000 which was not met. I wonder whether it can ever happen...
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:57 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
Well, I initially wanted to challenge the assertion made by the user Kalvado, but decided to do a rudimentary online search before. I then came across what you also saw. Some web page even claims that the A320 fuselage itself is made from composites. So, I am now thoroughly confused.

I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.

This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?

That page 2 diagram shows that none of the composite structures are what one commonly defines as "primary structure".
I found those exact words you mentioned ("Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.") during a Google search, so I'm assuming that's where you got them from; I, and others it seems, are questioning the definition of "primary structure".
I agree with your analysis though, that the 99.2% number seems extremely high to be accurate.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:19 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I was also about to challenge him, but decided not to after searching online.

To me, the primary structure of an aircraft is its fuselage, wing and wingbox; as far as I know, all this is aluminum on the A320.
Empennage and flight surfaces are, I believe, composite, or mostly composite.
Landing gears are steel, pylons most likely as well.
Yes, the A320 has a significant proportion of composites; but it still primarily metal.

This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?

That page 2 diagram shows that none of the composite structures are what one commonly defines as "primary structure".
I found those exact words you mentioned ("Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.") during a Google search, so I'm assuming that's where you got them from; I, and others it seems, are questioning the definition of "primary structure".
I agree with your analysis though, that the 99.2% number seems extremely high to be accurate.

I am not even defending that statement. Basically I wanted to know the fraction and types of composites used - and looks like at least types of composits were correct in that link.

My specific issue is not with %% - it is just obvious bullshit (after all, this number is probably 100% less weight of trash and sawdust left behind), but with what have happened with the rest. Composites may be a relatively obvious issue. I actually specifically looked up PVC - I assume a lot of that in the interior. There is no good technology available, pyrolysis likely does more harm than good.
Others would include insulation on wires (I assume wires are shipped for reclaim with insulation, so included in recycle %); paint (Boeing says 179 lb for 737-700; lets assume same for 319), out of 78 klb A319 empty weight - that is 0.23% for paint alone.

Bottom line: my impression this is a shameless PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong, will be happy to concede once good information is on the table.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:23 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?

That page 2 diagram shows that none of the composite structures are what one commonly defines as "primary structure".
I found those exact words you mentioned ("Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.") during a Google search, so I'm assuming that's where you got them from; I, and others it seems, are questioning the definition of "primary structure".
I agree with your analysis though, that the 99.2% number seems extremely high to be accurate.

I am not even defending that statement. Basically I wanted to know the fraction and types of composites used - and looks like at least types of composits were correct in that link.

My specific issue is not with %% - it is just obvious bullshit (after all, this number is probably 100% less weight of trash and sawdust left behind), but with what have happened with the rest. Composites may be a relatively obvious issue. I actually specifically looked up PVC - I assume a lot of that in the interior. There is no good technology available, pyrolysis likely does more harm than good.
Others would include insulation on wires (I assume wires are shipped for reclaim with insulation, so included in recycle %); paint (Boeing says 179 lb for 737-700; lets assume same for 319), out of 78 klb A319 empty weight - that is 0.23% for paint alone.

Bottom line: my impression this is a shameless PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong, will be happy to concede once good information is on the table.


I agree: virtue claiming.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:43 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?

That page 2 diagram shows that none of the composite structures are what one commonly defines as "primary structure".
I found those exact words you mentioned ("Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.") during a Google search, so I'm assuming that's where you got them from; I, and others it seems, are questioning the definition of "primary structure".
I agree with your analysis though, that the 99.2% number seems extremely high to be accurate.

I am not even defending that statement. Basically I wanted to know the fraction and types of composites used - and looks like at least types of composits were correct in that link.

My specific issue is not with %% - it is just obvious bullshit (after all, this number is probably 100% less weight of trash and sawdust left behind), but with what have happened with the rest. Composites may be a relatively obvious issue. I actually specifically looked up PVC - I assume a lot of that in the interior. There is no good technology available, pyrolysis likely does more harm than good.
Others would include insulation on wires (I assume wires are shipped for reclaim with insulation, so included in recycle %); paint (Boeing says 179 lb for 737-700; lets assume same for 319), out of 78 klb A319 empty weight - that is 0.23% for paint alone.

Bottom line: my impression this is a shameless PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong, will be happy to concede once good information is on the table.

I'm 100% with you on that, it's a PR move.
Oh, and that 100% DOES include the composite parts :rotfl: . Oops... :duck:
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:10 pm

kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
This is the paper published by EADS in 2001: http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1691.pdf
THey claim 15-20% by weight, and page 2 shows location of composite components.

And that means composites were recycled at least with 90% efficiency to achieve 99% overall. Or put in storage as spares and face landfill or recycle later. I wonder what that means exactly - composit parts ground into small pieces to be mixed with road asphalt or something more meaningful?

That page 2 diagram shows that none of the composite structures are what one commonly defines as "primary structure".
I found those exact words you mentioned ("Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.") during a Google search, so I'm assuming that's where you got them from; I, and others it seems, are questioning the definition of "primary structure".
I agree with your analysis though, that the 99.2% number seems extremely high to be accurate.

I am not even defending that statement. Basically I wanted to know the fraction and types of composites used - and looks like at least types of composits were correct in that link.

My specific issue is not with %% - it is just obvious bullshit (after all, this number is probably 100% less weight of trash and sawdust left behind), but with what have happened with the rest. Composites may be a relatively obvious issue. I actually specifically looked up PVC - I assume a lot of that in the interior. There is no good technology available, pyrolysis likely does more harm than good.
Others would include insulation on wires (I assume wires are shipped for reclaim with insulation, so included in recycle %); paint (Boeing says 179 lb for 737-700; lets assume same for 319), out of 78 klb A319 empty weight - that is 0.23% for paint alone.

Bottom line: my impression this is a shameless PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong, will be happy to concede once good information is on the table.

This type of language goes a bit too far in my opinion for somebody on the outside. The objective is to reuse, recycle or recover. I don't know enough about recycling to say the percentage is correct or not, but I can say without a doubt that shameless PR and fake news are two things I would not associate with FI.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:12 am

majano wrote:
kalvado wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
That page 2 diagram shows that none of the composite structures are what one commonly defines as "primary structure".
I found those exact words you mentioned ("Primary structure of A320 is composites - aramid fibre (AFRP), glass fibre (GFRP) and carbon fibre (CFRP) reinforced plastics.") during a Google search, so I'm assuming that's where you got them from; I, and others it seems, are questioning the definition of "primary structure".
I agree with your analysis though, that the 99.2% number seems extremely high to be accurate.

I am not even defending that statement. Basically I wanted to know the fraction and types of composites used - and looks like at least types of composits were correct in that link.

My specific issue is not with %% - it is just obvious bullshit (after all, this number is probably 100% less weight of trash and sawdust left behind), but with what have happened with the rest. Composites may be a relatively obvious issue. I actually specifically looked up PVC - I assume a lot of that in the interior. There is no good technology available, pyrolysis likely does more harm than good.
Others would include insulation on wires (I assume wires are shipped for reclaim with insulation, so included in recycle %); paint (Boeing says 179 lb for 737-700; lets assume same for 319), out of 78 klb A319 empty weight - that is 0.23% for paint alone.

Bottom line: my impression this is a shameless PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong, will be happy to concede once good information is on the table.

This type of language goes a bit too far in my opinion for somebody on the outside. The objective is to reuse, recycle or recover. I don't know enough about recycling to say the percentage is correct or not, but I can say without a doubt that shameless PR and fake news are two things I would not associate with FI.

Welcome to real-world, you must be new here.
 
MareBorealis
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 am

kalvado wrote:
PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong


Yeah damn Icelandair (FI)
 
finnishway
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:13 am

There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:45 am

kalvado wrote:
majano wrote:
kalvado wrote:
I am not even defending that statement. Basically I wanted to know the fraction and types of composites used - and looks like at least types of composits were correct in that link.

Bottom line: my impression this is a shameless PR from FI and basically fake news. Feel free to prove I am wrong, will be happy to concede once good information is on the table.

This type of language goes a bit too far in my opinion for somebody on the outside. The objective is to reuse, recycle or recover. I don't know enough about recycling to say the percentage is correct or not, but I can say without a doubt that shameless PR and fake news are two things I would not associate with FI.

Welcome to real-world, you must be new here.

Not sure what being new here has to do with the topic? The details provided in the article above confirm that there's no fake news.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:42 am

majano wrote:
kalvado wrote:
majano wrote:
This type of language goes a bit too far in my opinion for somebody on the outside. The objective is to reuse, recycle or recover. I don't know enough about recycling to say the percentage is correct or not, but I can say without a doubt that shameless PR and fake news are two things I would not associate with FI.

Welcome to real-world, you must be new here.

Not sure what being new here has to do with the topic? The details provided in the article above confirm that there's no fake news.

Details provided in the article show that maybe 70% of aircraft will be truly repurposed. Which is reasonable job. Inflating that to 99% is somewhere between overselling and lying.
Some of that may be actually environmentally negative in a long run compared to honest landfill use, like keeping spares which will never be used.
Overall, you're welcome to challenge on the basis of solid facts. But use facts, not religious beliefs.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:58 am

finnishway wrote:
There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html

Cans are not pure Al as well, it is just a different alloy. Different alloys are sold for different applications. Recycling of alloys is nothing new, composition can be adjusted during melting, different alloys can be presorted to make that easier.
What is conveniently forgotten, though, is that start to end efficiency of that process is less than 100%. Al pieces were likely shipped with paint and primer on - those would end up burning or in slag. Surface oxide would also end up as waste. Normal losses...
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15875
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:32 am

It would be interesting to see the details of this recycling and its costs with this alleged goal. I bet it may be selective and the actual numbers far less or only for certain materials.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:13 pm

finnishway wrote:
There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html

kalvado had a very good question: what happened to all the composite that's very hard to recycle? It's about 28% in weight of an A320 or 11,000 kg... That's a far cry from 290 kg.
 
finnishway
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:14 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
finnishway wrote:
There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html

kalvado had a very good question: what happened to all the composite that's very hard to recycle? It's about 28% in weight of an A320 or 11,000 kg... That's a far cry from 290 kg.


Recycling company stored composite materials for their future recycling project so composites will be used later.
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:41 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
finnishway wrote:
There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html

kalvado had a very good question: what happened to all the composite that's very hard to recycle? It's about 28% in weight of an A320 or 11,000 kg... That's a far cry from 290 kg.

Can you provide a source for the 28% please? The EADS document provided upthread refers to 15% - 20%.
 
User avatar
DLHAM
Posts: 683
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:44 pm

I can remember seeing these Finnair A319s at Hamburg Finkenwerder when they were new prior to delivery, now they get scrapped -- this means I am getting old!!! :boggled:
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:06 am

finnishway wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
finnishway wrote:
There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html

kalvado had a very good question: what happened to all the composite that's very hard to recycle? It's about 28% in weight of an A320 or 11,000 kg... That's a far cry from 290 kg.


Recycling company stored composite materials for their future recycling project so composites will be used later.

Just like nuclear waste, right?
So, it avoided the landfill, but still not recycled.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:12 am

majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
finnishway wrote:
There was about 15 tons of aluminium in the fuselage that was melted with other aluminium into ingots. Those will be sold to Europe and used for example in car gearboxes.

Aircraft aluminium is not pure aluminium so its not used in soda cans for example.

Only 290 kg of waste was send to landfill. So most of the recycled aircraft can be used as spare parts or used again in manufacturing industry.

Source (Finnish): https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008232589.html

kalvado had a very good question: what happened to all the composite that's very hard to recycle? It's about 28% in weight of an A320 or 11,000 kg... That's a far cry from 290 kg.

Can you provide a source for the 28% please? The EADS document provided upthread refers to 15% - 20%.

This article mentions that
In total, composites constitute 28 percent of the weight of the A320 airframe
and specifically speaks of the A320. It also says that
the A380 is about 20 to 22 percent composites by weight.


The document provided upthread mentions that
approximately 15-20% of the structures weight of Airbus aircraft is made from composites
with no mention of which aircraft or if it's on average.
 
finnishway
Posts: 571
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:53 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Just like nuclear waste, right?
So, it avoided the landfill, but still not recycled.


Well, not exactly.

Stored composite materials can and will be used in the future. 4,2% of that aircraft was used for research purposes and that includes those composite materials.

Source (in Finnish): https://www.finnair.com/fi-fi/bluewings ... 2--2383414
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:42 am

finnishway wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Just like nuclear waste, right?
So, it avoided the landfill, but still not recycled.


Well, not exactly.

Stored composite materials can and will be used in the future. 4,2% of that aircraft was used for research purposes and that includes those composite materials.

Source (in Finnish): https://www.finnair.com/fi-fi/bluewings ... 2--2383414

So at least 4% is not actually recycled, and use is very resource-consuming and isn't reproducivle.
Including that into recycling numbers is a very misleading statement, if not outright lie.
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:24 am

kalvado wrote:
finnishway wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Just like nuclear waste, right?
So, it avoided the landfill, but still not recycled.


Well, not exactly.

Stored composite materials can and will be used in the future. 4,2% of that aircraft was used for research purposes and that includes those composite materials.

Source (in Finnish): https://www.finnair.com/fi-fi/bluewings ... 2--2383414

So at least 4% is not actually recycled, and use is very resource-consuming and isn't reproducivle.
Including that into recycling numbers is a very misleading statement, if not outright lie.

Reuse of materials that are otherwise intact is an integral part of sustainable use of resources.
https://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_g/G314/welcome.html
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:35 am

WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado had a very good question: what happened to all the composite that's very hard to recycle? It's about 28% in weight of an A320 or 11,000 kg... That's a far cry from 290 kg.

Can you provide a source for the 28% please? The EADS document provided upthread refers to 15% - 20%.

This article mentions that
In total, composites constitute 28 percent of the weight of the A320 airframe
and specifically speaks of the A320. It also says that
the A380 is about 20 to 22 percent composites by weight.


The document provided upthread mentions that
approximately 15-20% of the structures weight of Airbus aircraft is made from composites
with no mention of which aircraft or if it's on average.

Thank you for the link. It is difficult to reconcile the two numbers because they are so far apart. Perhaps one refers to basic weight without seats and other furnishings whilst the other includes such items.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:48 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
majano wrote:
kalvado wrote:
finnishway wrote:

Well, not exactly.

Stored composite materials can and will be used in the future. 4,2% of that aircraft was used for research purposes and that includes those composite materials.

Source (in Finnish): https://www.finnair.com/fi-fi/bluewings ... 2--2383414

So at least 4% is not actually recycled, and use is very resource-consuming and isn't reproducivle.
Including that into recycling numbers is a very misleading statement, if not outright lie.

Reuse of materials that are otherwise intact is an integral part of sustainable use of resources.
https://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_g/G314/welcome.html

Reuse for research?
Well, let's see... If a malignant tumor is removed from a person and used in research - would you say that tumor is reused?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:21 pm

majano wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
majano wrote:
Can you provide a source for the 28% please? The EADS document provided upthread refers to 15% - 20%.

This article mentions that
In total, composites constitute 28 percent of the weight of the A320 airframe
and specifically speaks of the A320. It also says that
the A380 is about 20 to 22 percent composites by weight.


The document provided upthread mentions that
approximately 15-20% of the structures weight of Airbus aircraft is made from composites
with no mention of which aircraft or if it's on average.

Thank you for the link. It is difficult to reconcile the two numbers because they are so far apart. Perhaps one refers to basic weight without seats and other furnishings whilst the other includes such items.

No, both talk about the structure/airframe.
It seem that, by weight, the A320 is more composite than the A380. It sounds like they averaged on all Airbus aircraft families to get to the 15-20%.

And, in the same family (A320Family), there is a great chance the % of composite by weight goes, from higher to lower, A318 -> A319 -> A320 -> A321 since the fuselage barrels are aluminum.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:26 pm

OK, I actually read the article (I usually avoid Simple Flying, but had to this time).
The title is misleading: it states that Finnair recycled[/] 99% of the A319. Then, further down the article is states Finnair reused, recycled and [b]recovered 99.2% of the aircraft.

The "recovered" is important as it represents material that did not end up in the landfill, but is neither reused nor recycled... So, what'll happen to it?
 
kalvado
Posts: 3403
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:31 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
OK, I actually read the article (I usually avoid Simple Flying, but had to this time).
The title is misleading: it states that Finnair recycled[/] 99% of the A319. Then, further down the article is states Finnair reused, recycled and [b]recovered 99.2% of the aircraft.

The "recovered" is important as it represents material that did not end up in the landfill, but is neither reused nor recycled... So, what'll happen to it?

Sounds like at least significant portion went into landfill, but labeled as storage. Maybe someday it will be taken out.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5553
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:15 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
OK, I actually read the article (I usually avoid Simple Flying, but had to this time).
The title is misleading: it states that Finnair recycled[/] 99% of the A319. Then, further down the article is states Finnair reused, recycled and [b]recovered 99.2% of the aircraft.

The "recovered" is important as it represents material that did not end up in the landfill, but is neither reused nor recycled... So, what'll happen to it?


In that part of the world, they are really big on "Waste to Energy" incinerators. There is always the possibility "recovered" means some of the stuff was burned and the energy was recovered. They may also be referring to a certain amount of fluids and the like as being recovered as well as things like tires.
 
majano
Posts: 376
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:43 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
WayexTDI wrote:
OK, I actually read the article (I usually avoid Simple Flying, but had to this time).
The title is misleading: it states that Finnair recycled[/] 99% of the A319. Then, further down the article is states Finnair reused, recycled and [b]recovered 99.2% of the aircraft.

The "recovered" is important as it represents material that did not end up in the landfill, but is neither reused nor recycled... So, what'll happen to it?

Exactly what I stated twenty or so posts upthread. It is not only about conventional recycling. If you can reuse an item as is, why should you recycle? Those items which cannot be reused are then recycled or repurposed. In that way only a small proportion goes to landfill.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: OH-LVB AY A319 gets 99.2% recycled during scrapping

Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:39 pm

majano wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
WayexTDI wrote:
OK, I actually read the article (I usually avoid Simple Flying, but had to this time).
The title is misleading: it states that Finnair recycled[/] 99% of the A319. Then, further down the article is states Finnair reused, recycled and [b]recovered 99.2% of the aircraft.

The "recovered" is important as it represents material that did not end up in the landfill, but is neither reused nor recycled... So, what'll happen to it?

Exactly what I stated twenty or so posts upthread. It is not only about conventional recycling. If you can reuse an item as is, why should you recycle? Those items which cannot be reused are then recycled or repurposed. In that way only a small proportion goes to landfill.

The question remains as to which purpose did the 11+ tonnes of composites go to? Some parts (like the vertical stabilizer) were reused, some other composite parts as well (mainly flight surfaces most likely); where did the rest do since it's hard to recycle?

On an energy point of view, the best is of course to reuse; then come recycling.
But then again, what will happen to the "recovered" material that can be neither reused nor recycled? Tooting you recycled 99.2% of an airplane, then saying that a portion of that is recovered only, is misleading at best.

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