keesje wrote:

Let's again collectively say how unacceptable this is & all condemn the villain 100x.

keesje wrote:

Let's again collectively say how unacceptable this is & all condemn the villain 100x.

arfbool wrote:

The local news radio (1070 AM) reported this but didn’t mention masking. They said the passenger was bumped by a food cart and went to the galley to retaliate.

jfklganyc wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html

Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

kalvado wrote:

OA412 wrote:

ClassicLover wrote:

Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

kalvado wrote:

2175301 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high.

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X

In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Boof02671 wrote:

kalvado wrote:

2175301 wrote:

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X

In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.

Boof02671 wrote:

These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced earlier this year that it would begin to enforce a zero-tolerance policy for unruly passengers after a rise in reports of aggressive behavior on flights.

The agency said in August it had issued more than $1 million in fines to unruly passengers in 2021, and revealed there have already been 4,941 unruly passenger reports this year alone.

Assaulting a flight attendant is a felony and could land an offender years in prison.

We are outraged by the reports of what took place on board. Acts of violence against our team members are not tolerated by American Airlines,' it said in a statement.

'We have engaged local law enforcement and the FBI and we are working with them to ensure they have all the information they need. The individual involved in this incident will never be allowed to travel with American Airlines in the future, but we will not be satisfied until he has been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.'

Boof02671 wrote:

kalvado wrote:

2175301 wrote:

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X

In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.

jfklganyc wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

kalvado wrote:

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.

We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception

Aaron747 wrote:

Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

jfklganyc wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html

Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

Boof02671 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.

We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception

Flight attendants do.

High altitude training can potentially improve your endurance during intense exercise. It may increase your aerobic capacity, lactic acid tolerance, and oxygen flow to your muscles.

Revelation wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

N505fx wrote:

Problem is with no mask you can still be vaccinated and transmit the virus.

Same goes with the cold or the flu...but we don't mask for those! With a 99% chance of living and just getting sick and not hospitalized when vaccinated, lets just put a vaccination mandate in place and get over this nonsense.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

Others noted the OP's link to the British tabloid Daily Mail, right?

The incident will get plenty of U.S. press but the Daily Mail does seem to revel in our trash.

Boof02671 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.

We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception

Flight attendants do.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

With all these episodes, has there ever been an incident where a Federal AIr Marshal has intervened? Perhaps the airlines need to start hiring Pickerton men for certain flights!

Revelation wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

In days of old, this would be treated like a public health issue, everyone would be on board with simple measures like wearing masks to help reduce the spread of a virus that kills people.

Nowadays there is a lot of profit in taking a position that makes average people feel they know more than professional virologists and immunologists, and making them think a minor inconvenience is a major assault on their rights.

IMO this is just as responsible for these kinds of incidents as the things you list, but these days the media has placed itself above any such accusations.

nine4nine wrote:

Hey whatever happened to all these federal air Marshall’s we were having post 9-11. All these attacks and hardly any involving an on board Marshall. Or even an intervening passenger. This is just showing terrorists were still as vulnerable in the air than ever. Can you imagine if 9/11 happened today? People would be too busy tic-toking or instagramming the incident on their phones then stepping up and putting a stop to the nonsense.

GSPSPOT wrote:

It's not the rule that's the problem, it's the knuckle-draggers who not only refuse, but LIE by agreeing to the rules, then deciding they don't apply to them. These hooligans should be put UNDER the jail. It's no wonder that companies can't find people who want to do front-line work any more.

Boof02671 wrote:

These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html

kalvado wrote:

OA412 wrote:

ClassicLover wrote:

Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

F9Animal wrote:

I am so sick of this garbage! I'm not a tough guy or anything, but I fly alot for my job. I have had to step in twice now this year to assist a flight crew member on this exact issue. Literally had to get up and stand in front of the flight attendant and tell the passenger they need to comply. I figured I would prefer to take the punch instead if it was coming. I will never ever just sit idle if something like this happens.

I do believe the laws for assaulting a crew member should be a federal offense.

Maybe it's time to include firm warnings during the safety briefing and include the fact that harsh federal penalties will happen if someone touches a crew member?

And lastly. I agree with others. These clowns should be put on a permanent no fly list on every single airline.

planecane wrote:

subramak1 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.

TMccrury wrote:

This is an excellent synopsis of the situation. I try to avoid flying for that reason. I arrive with a nasty headache and much more fatigued. I have trouble with mask even when I'm not flying.

Boof02671 wrote:

kalvado wrote:

OA412 wrote:

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.

Please just stop.

kalvado wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

kalvado wrote:

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?
Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.
Please just stop.

Normal transpulmonary resistance is about 9 cm of water column. N95 adds about 30 mm, ASTM certified simple masks have 5 mm and 15 mm limits.
Industrial respirators may not exceed 50 mm of water column in resistance and generally require medical clearance.
long story short, I can see someone healthy and well fit claim life is great, but someone less healthy having problems. Such as recovering covid patients with noticeable lung damage.
Of course, numeric aspects of it are difficult to digest for those who is used to propaganda messages....

alfa164 wrote:

kalvado wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.
Please just stop.

Normal transpulmonary resistance is about 9 cm of water column. N95 adds about 30 mm, ASTM certified simple masks have 5 mm and 15 mm limits.
Industrial respirators may not exceed 50 mm of water column in resistance and generally require medical clearance.
long story short, I can see someone healthy and well fit claim life is great, but someone less healthy having problems. Such as recovering covid patients with noticeable lung damage.
Of course, numeric aspects of it are difficult to digest for those who is used to propaganda messages....

And do you have any sources - reputable sources - for those claims.

Inquiring minds would like to know... facts...

Aaron747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

That is likely to be psychosomatic unless you have low respiratory function to begin with. Surgeons deal just fine and they are masked up sometimes 10+ hours at a time.

Most aren’t at 8,000’ either or in otherwise poor health, depressed, have anger issues. I’ve flown some with the masks, it’s bearable, I’m not punching people out, but it might just be the marginal issue that puts some people over the edge. We’ve argued that on other threads. Masking does make me think driving is preferable at times. I’m going to Florida for a few shoots this winter, likely drive rather than fly. The cons of flying start to be offset by the pros of driving even with the considerable cons of driving down 95.

Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone. Masks have no actual effect on serum oxygen levels.

https://www.uhhospitals.org/Healthy-at- ... gen-intake

lightsaber wrote:

subramak1 wrote:

planecane wrote:

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.

I dont like wearing masks either, however I understand why we need them and I do know they are effective.

There was a case in Missouri where two hairdressers had COVID but did not realize and treated over 140 customers. Not one of their customers got COVID, the haridressers had their masks on, which prevented spread of COVID. Why does COVID transmission come down when mask mandates are instituted, masks are highly effective at reducing covid transmission. Assume a situation you were an asymptomatic COVID and not wearing a mask. You essentially become an unwitting spreader.

I will keep wearing masks in any crowded setting until this pandemic becomes endemic and reduces in intensity. It is a safe choice and has proven to be highly effective.

Lastly, I respect your decision to be civil about this.

Returning to topic, there should be national no fly, no public transport list for such people in US.

Best, Subramanian

Mostly to others:
Masks have been proven to reduce the growth rate of the virus. Since we just came off full hospitals, perhaps we should wear them?
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/41790 ... ks-prevent


recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.


We still have hospitals going to capacity (I know numerous people with delayed other care due hospital staff shortages:
https://www.wsmv.com/news/us_world_news ... 1.amp.html

https://bangordailynews.com/2021/10/26/ ... oasq1i29i/

My relative in a hospital in Colorado has perpetually full critical care and ICUs. They only have two vaccinated patients and one is a cancer patient (unlikely to build immunity) and the other so old... The other 42 are unvaccinated with many unvaccinated sent home with oxygen, a pulse oxygen meter, medicines, and instructions on when to call an ambulance.

I personally cannot stand wearing a mask, but I know it mostly protects others and has a small chance of protecting me. Note: uncovered noses is basically not wearing a mask.

The two hairdressers are a great example of how a mask stops Covid19 at the source (droplets).

Assaulting a FA over a known requirement to reduce risk to others: permanent no-fly.

Lightsaber

kalvado wrote:

I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor.

arfbool wrote:

The local news radio (1070 AM) reported this but didn’t mention masking. They said the passenger was bumped by a food cart and went to the galley to retaliate.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Most aren’t at 8,000’ either or in otherwise poor health, depressed, have anger issues. I’ve flown some with the masks, it’s bearable, I’m not punching people out, but it might just be the marginal issue that puts some people over the edge. We’ve argued that on other threads. Masking does make me think driving is preferable at times. I’m going to Florida for a few shoots this winter, likely drive rather than fly. The cons of flying start to be offset by the pros of driving even with the considerable cons of driving down 95.

Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone. Masks have no actual effect on serum oxygen levels.

https://www.uhhospitals.org/Healthy-at- ... gen-intake

I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.

Now, that’s not a reason or an excuse for battling crews. It’s still a small percentage of all passengers fighting crews over masks. Airline travel has just gotten worse and worse over the years and masking is one more damned thing. Driving has become first class travel.

tjwgrr wrote:

Once again... there needs to be a national no-fly list so these idiots never see the interior of any passenger aircraft again.

Go Greyhound a-hole.

OA412 wrote:

ClassicLover wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year.

2175301 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.

It is most likely a chemical or perfume odors in the mask that is causing your problems (allergies).

For starters - try buying ASTM Rated surgical masks from reputable Western manufactures....

2175301 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation.

If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high.

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

rbretas wrote:

Many people feel lack of air and difficult breathing with a mask, specially if they are not used to wearing one (as most people weren't before the pandemic). That is purely psychological. I'm not saying it's not real. It is real and it reflects on your body, but it is psychologically underpinned nevertheless.

I suggest to anyone who feels uncomfortable wearing a mask to look for psychological or psychiatric treatment for mask anxiety if the issue is serious enough to restrict their daily activities. There is no shame in that.

That being said, what the aviation professionals feel when a layman comes here insisting that they know more about some aviation topic is the same we, health professionals and researchers, feel while reading these comments about how masks affect breathing, oxygenation levels, etc.

rbretas wrote:

Many people feel lack of air and difficult breathing with a mask, specially if they are not used to wearing one (as most people weren't before the pandemic). That is purely psychological. I'm not saying it's not real. It is real and it reflects on your body, but it is psychologically underpinned nevertheless.

I suggest to anyone who feels uncomfortable wearing a mask to look for psychological or psychiatric treatment for mask anxiety if the issue is serious enough to restrict their daily activities. There is no shame in that.

That being said, what the aviation professionals feel when a layman comes here insisting that they know more about some aviation topic is the same we, health professionals and researchers, feel while reading these comments about how masks affect breathing, oxygenation levels, etc.