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CobaltScar
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:21 pm

keesje wrote:
Let's again collectively say how unacceptable this is & all condemn the villain 100x. :cloudnine:


Exactly, and the FAA won't do a thing as things continue to get worse and escalate further.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:28 pm

keesje wrote:
Let's again collectively say how unacceptable this is & all condemn the villain 100x. :cloudnine:

We should. Violence is never an nswer. Restrain and going through the proper channels are. (I know the man in the first scene of The Godfather would disagree, but that's how it is ) :)
 
jbs2886
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:29 pm

arfbool wrote:
The local news radio (1070 AM) reported this but didn’t mention masking. They said the passenger was bumped by a food cart and went to the galley to retaliate.


That’s insane. If you’re bumped by the cart you’re leaning into the aisle, so that’s on you.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:35 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

Problem is with no mask you can still be vaccinated and transmit the virus.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:39 pm

kalvado wrote:
OA412 wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:

Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.

Please just stop.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:01 pm

kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:


The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X
In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.
 
kalvado
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:10 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X
In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.

So far, no effects - after all class 1 medical is there for the reason. However, CO2 is known to affect pilot performance...
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370%20-018-0055-8
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:15 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html

Maybe it has been updated, but the linked article says a LOT of things people here are missing.

Those stating FAA is doing "nothing":

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced earlier this year that it would begin to enforce a zero-tolerance policy for unruly passengers after a rise in reports of aggressive behavior on flights.

The agency said in August it had issued more than $1 million in fines to unruly passengers in 2021, and revealed there have already been 4,941 unruly passenger reports this year alone.

Those saying it should be a crime: it already is:

Assaulting a flight attendant is a felony and could land an offender years in prison.

Those saying the pax should be banned: he now is at least from AA, and AA is pushing for the case to be prosecuted:

We are outraged by the reports of what took place on board. Acts of violence against our team members are not tolerated by American Airlines,' it said in a statement.

'We have engaged local law enforcement and the FBI and we are working with them to ensure they have all the information they need. The individual involved in this incident will never be allowed to travel with American Airlines in the future, but we will not be satisfied until he has been prosecuted to the full extent of the law.'
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:18 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X
In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.


We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:28 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X

So a mask can be just the last straw....

Pilots wear masks. Just saying.


We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception

Flight attendants do.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

In days of old, this would be treated like a public health issue, everyone would be on board with simple measures like wearing masks to help reduce the spread of a virus that kills people.

Nowadays there is a lot of profit in taking a position that makes average people feel they know more than professional virologists and immunologists, and making them think a minor inconvenience is a major assault on their rights.

IMO this is just as responsible for these kinds of incidents as the things you list, but these days the media has placed itself above any such accusations.
 
N505fx
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:35 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Absolutely...it is such a crock that the Federal Government puts the burden of enforcing their "rules" on the backs of flight attendants...yet the Feds still come to the airlines and demand "what are you airlines going to do about the increase in violence onboard" ....it is complete and utter garbage. If I were Doug, Scott or Ed I would go back to the Government and ask "what are YOU going to do to not create an environment with your policies that is hostile to OUR employees?"
 
kalvado
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:37 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Pilots wear masks. Just saying.


We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception

Flight attendants do.

I wonder if FAs are more fit in terms of breath than a regular person. They could very well be.
One of the ways to improve performance in sports is to train at the altitude. Not sure if it is legal with modern sports, but general effects are fairly well known.
https://www.healthline.com/health/altit ... ning#about
High altitude training can potentially improve your endurance during intense exercise. It may increase your aerobic capacity, lactic acid tolerance, and oxygen flow to your muscles.
 
N505fx
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:40 pm

[quote=Problem is with no mask you can still be vaccinated and transmit the virus.[/quote]

Same goes with the cold or the flu...but we don't mask for those! With a 99% chance of living and just getting sick and not hospitalized when vaccinated, lets just put a vaccination mandatein place andget over this nonsense.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

Others noted the OP's link to the British tabloid Daily Mail, right?

The incident will get plenty of U.S. press but the Daily Mail does seem to revel in our trash.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:00 pm

With all these episodes, has there ever been an incident where a Federal AIr Marshal has intervened? Perhaps the airlines need to start hiring Pickerton men for certain flights!
 
kalvado
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:16 pm

N505fx wrote:
Problem is with no mask you can still be vaccinated and transmit the virus.


Same goes with the cold or the flu...but we don't mask for those! With a 99% chance of living and just getting sick and not hospitalized when vaccinated, lets just put a vaccination mandate in place and get over this nonsense.

There is a fat chance that people will adopt some new hygiene standards as the result of all these.
A lot of our clothing conventions are and were actually a result of epidemic conditions.
Hats were required to keep lice in check; underwear limits helminths and fecal bound infections...
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:24 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

Others noted the OP's link to the British tabloid Daily Mail, right?

The incident will get plenty of U.S. press but the Daily Mail does seem to revel in our trash.

To be fair, they revel in their own trash, and everyone else's too.

I read the entire piece (unlike a lot of posters here) and did not find any false or misleading information, did you?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:29 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Pilots wear masks. Just saying.


We absolutely DO NOT wear masks.

Take a peek inside on your next flight.

We wear them when we leave the cockpit.

That is the widespread status. Id call it close to 100 percent…but there is always an exception

Flight attendants do.


My department decided early on, no masks in the cockpit.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:31 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
With all these episodes, has there ever been an incident where a Federal AIr Marshal has intervened? Perhaps the airlines need to start hiring Pickerton men for certain flights!


There’s not many FAMs to be on flights, very unlikely and I think they are told not intervene unless it’s clear hijacking attempt.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Lootess
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:47 pm

Getting tired of hearing about the so-called FAA no-tolerance policy. 50k and do not pass go, isn't enough for this non-sense. What if the next accident moves beyond broken bones?

Duct taping passengers shouldn't be part of the FA's job description. Government should work together and start putting these people on the no-fly list, and start locking them up indefinitely.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone.

Certain media outlets make lots of money off of triggering people and spreading misinformation, yet they get no blame for the toxic environment they've created.

In days of old, this would be treated like a public health issue, everyone would be on board with simple measures like wearing masks to help reduce the spread of a virus that kills people.

Nowadays there is a lot of profit in taking a position that makes average people feel they know more than professional virologists and immunologists, and making them think a minor inconvenience is a major assault on their rights.

IMO this is just as responsible for these kinds of incidents as the things you list, but these days the media has placed itself above any such accusations.


You’re more than correct - that crap is definitely fueling and enabling the behavior. I was just referring to the immediate environment but the outrage mindset certainly stems from poison programming.
 
nine4nine
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:50 pm

Hey whatever happened to all these federal air Marshall’s we were having post 9-11. All these attacks and hardly any involving an on board Marshall. Or even an intervening passenger. This is just showing terrorists were still as vulnerable in the air than ever. Can you imagine if 9/11 happened today? People would be too busy tic-toking or instagramming the incident on their phones then stepping up and putting a stop to the nonsense.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:19 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Hey whatever happened to all these federal air Marshall’s we were having post 9-11. All these attacks and hardly any involving an on board Marshall. Or even an intervening passenger. This is just showing terrorists were still as vulnerable in the air than ever. Can you imagine if 9/11 happened today? People would be too busy tic-toking or instagramming the incident on their phones then stepping up and putting a stop to the nonsense.


They are there to prevent hijackings, not incidents like these. If a diversion was used to identify the FAM, a hijacker would know if there was a FAM on-board and who to attack, then the hijack team could take over the plane.
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:22 pm

It's not the rule that's the problem, it's the knuckle-draggers who not only refuse, but LIE by agreeing to the rules, then deciding they don't apply to them. These hooligans should be put UNDER the jail. It's no wonder that companies can't find people who want to do front-line work any more.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:56 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
It's not the rule that's the problem, it's the knuckle-draggers who not only refuse, but LIE by agreeing to the rules, then deciding they don't apply to them. These hooligans should be put UNDER the jail. It's no wonder that companies can't find people who want to do front-line work any more.


Jail and fines are not enough of a deterrent. Lifetime bans from using the system will get their attention.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:21 am

Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html


Accurate or not--I'm sure others will provide more info:

I heard this incident mentioned tonight--the offending passenger was 'being held' but 'not charged'. The cynical bastige in me immediately assumed that the passenger had diplomatic immunity or that he was traveling to/from somewhere where he wasn't supposed to.
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:38 am

kalvado wrote:
OA412 wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:

Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?


OK a formor Nurse here. Mask do not reduce your oxygen levels. If they did myself (who has had asthma while wearing mask up to 16 hrs a day) doctors, nurses in hospitals & people wearing mask in construction & clean rooms would be dropping dead years ago. Stop spreading this BS excuse to claim you can't were a mask!
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:48 am

F9Animal wrote:
I am so sick of this garbage! I'm not a tough guy or anything, but I fly alot for my job. I have had to step in twice now this year to assist a flight crew member on this exact issue. Literally had to get up and stand in front of the flight attendant and tell the passenger they need to comply. I figured I would prefer to take the punch instead if it was coming. I will never ever just sit idle if something like this happens.

I do believe the laws for assaulting a crew member should be a federal offense.

Maybe it's time to include firm warnings during the safety briefing and include the fact that harsh federal penalties will happen if someone touches a crew member?

And lastly. I agree with others. These clowns should be put on a permanent no fly list on every single airline.


Thank you for standing up for what's right. No one wants this but we understand the risks associated and comply accordingly. The "don't tread on me" crowd has complied with every TSA demand since 9/11 but suddenly wants to rebel against masks.
 
TMccrury
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:21 am

planecane wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.



This is an excellent synopsis of the situation. I try to avoid flying for that reason. I arrive with a nasty headache and much more fatigued. I have trouble with mask even when I'm not flying. To those saying if mask were as much of a hinderance as claimed, we would have seen it in the surgical theatre a long time ago. The big difference is, a surgical room is not at 39,000 feet in a metal paper towel tube. Also, my wife has been through multiple surgeries this year and several of the nurses have expressed how much they don't like having to wear one in the OR but do so to keep the body fluid of the patent out of their mouth and nose. Many of them have expressed that the mask we wear to "stop covid" don't stop nothing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:27 am

TMccrury wrote:
This is an excellent synopsis of the situation. I try to avoid flying for that reason. I arrive with a nasty headache and much more fatigued. I have trouble with mask even when I'm not flying.


I suggest talking to your doc about that. That is not normal.

As for the nurses you mentioned, it's shocking they would lie like that and/or be so misinformed in their profession. Masks stop aerosols from being expelled widely to others in proximity:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91487-7
 
kalvado
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:05 am

Boof02671 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
OA412 wrote:
This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.

Please just stop.

Normal transpulmonary resistance is about 9 cm of water column. N95 adds about 30 mm, ASTM certified simple masks have 5 mm and 15 mm limits.
Industrial respirators may not exceed 50 mm of water column in resistance and generally require medical clearance.

long story short, I can see someone healthy and well fit claim life is great, but someone less healthy having problems. Such as recovering covid patients with noticeable lung damage.
Of course, numeric aspects of it are difficult to digest for those who is used to propaganda messages....
 
alfa164
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:16 am

kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?
Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.
Please just stop.

Normal transpulmonary resistance is about 9 cm of water column. N95 adds about 30 mm, ASTM certified simple masks have 5 mm and 15 mm limits.
Industrial respirators may not exceed 50 mm of water column in resistance and generally require medical clearance.
long story short, I can see someone healthy and well fit claim life is great, but someone less healthy having problems. Such as recovering covid patients with noticeable lung damage.
Of course, numeric aspects of it are difficult to digest for those who is used to propaganda messages....


And do you have any sources - reputable sources - for those claims.

Inquiring minds would like to know... facts...

:roll:
 
kalvado
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:20 am

alfa164 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your oxygen levels.
Please just stop.

Normal transpulmonary resistance is about 9 cm of water column. N95 adds about 30 mm, ASTM certified simple masks have 5 mm and 15 mm limits.
Industrial respirators may not exceed 50 mm of water column in resistance and generally require medical clearance.
long story short, I can see someone healthy and well fit claim life is great, but someone less healthy having problems. Such as recovering covid patients with noticeable lung damage.
Of course, numeric aspects of it are difficult to digest for those who is used to propaganda messages....


And do you have any sources - reputable sources - for those claims.

Inquiring minds would like to know... facts...

:roll:

Numbers? Of course I do - open on my desktop. Do some Google search, it's not that difficult. ASTM standardsfor masks, 29CFR for respirator stuff
 
AAtakeMeAway
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:59 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:22 am

So is it the case that this had nothing to do with masks?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9267
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That is likely to be psychosomatic unless you have low respiratory function to begin with. Surgeons deal just fine and they are masked up sometimes 10+ hours at a time.


Most aren’t at 8,000’ either or in otherwise poor health, depressed, have anger issues. I’ve flown some with the masks, it’s bearable, I’m not punching people out, but it might just be the marginal issue that puts some people over the edge. We’ve argued that on other threads. Masking does make me think driving is preferable at times. I’m going to Florida for a few shoots this winter, likely drive rather than fly. The cons of flying start to be offset by the pros of driving even with the considerable cons of driving down 95.


Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone. Masks have no actual effect on serum oxygen levels.

https://www.uhhospitals.org/Healthy-at- ... gen-intake


I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.

Now, that’s not a reason or an excuse for battling crews. It’s still a small percentage of all passengers fighting crews over masks. Airline travel has just gotten worse and worse over the years and masking is one more damned thing. Driving has become first class travel.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
AlaskaA321NEO
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:30 am

lightsaber wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
planecane wrote:
It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.


I dont like wearing masks either, however I understand why we need them and I do know they are effective.

There was a case in Missouri where two hairdressers had COVID but did not realize and treated over 140 customers. Not one of their customers got COVID, the haridressers had their masks on, which prevented spread of COVID. Why does COVID transmission come down when mask mandates are instituted, masks are highly effective at reducing covid transmission. Assume a situation you were an asymptomatic COVID and not wearing a mask. You essentially become an unwitting spreader.

I will keep wearing masks in any crowded setting until this pandemic becomes endemic and reduces in intensity. It is a safe choice and has proven to be highly effective.

Lastly, I respect your decision to be civil about this.

Returning to topic, there should be national no fly, no public transport list for such people in US.

Best, Subramanian

Mostly to others:
Masks have been proven to reduce the growth rate of the virus. Since we just came off full hospitals, perhaps we should wear them?
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/41790 ... ks-prevent


recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.


We still have hospitals going to capacity (I know numerous people with delayed other care due hospital staff shortages:
https://www.wsmv.com/news/us_world_news ... 1.amp.html

https://bangordailynews.com/2021/10/26/ ... oasq1i29i/

My relative in a hospital in Colorado has perpetually full critical care and ICUs. They only have two vaccinated patients and one is a cancer patient (unlikely to build immunity) and the other so old... The other 42 are unvaccinated with many unvaccinated sent home with oxygen, a pulse oxygen meter, medicines, and instructions on when to call an ambulance.

I personally cannot stand wearing a mask, but I know it mostly protects others and has a small chance of protecting me. Note: uncovered noses is basically not wearing a mask.

The two hairdressers are a great example of how a mask stops Covid19 at the source (droplets).

Assaulting a FA over a known requirement to reduce risk to others: permanent no-fly.

Lightsaber


That’s a terrible study and has many limitations as defined by the CDC. You can’t just cherry pick data to fit a narrative.

“ The limitations of the study were also recognised, including that less than half of the clients were tested.

Asymptomatic cases could have been missed and tests taken from clients too early in the course of infection could have returned false-negative results.

Another limitation was that authorities did not get data about whether clients wore face masks or gloves while in the shop.

The report also noted viral shedding is at its highest two to three days before the onset of symptoms, and clients from that period were "not recruited for contact tracing".

Finally, stylists mostly cut hair while clients were facing away from them.”

Anthony
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:44 am

kalvado wrote:

I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor.


This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read on this site.
 
arfbool
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:02 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 am

Why not wear a mask with the exhale valve turned around? You can have all the air you want and won’t be endangering others.
 
User avatar
KBUF
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:12 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:01 am

arfbool wrote:
The local news radio (1070 AM) reported this but didn’t mention masking. They said the passenger was bumped by a food cart and went to the galley to retaliate.


If that's true, holy overreaction, Batman.
 
2175301
Posts: 2292
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:08 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.


It is most likely a chemical or perfume odors in the mask that is causing your problems (allergies).

For starters - try buying ASTM Rated surgical masks from reputable Western manufactures. Not things on Amazon that claim the be ASTM rated unless they supply a manufacture and a part number (Example: PriMed PM4-306 are made in Canada, and are the ones I personally use).

I assume almost all China Company labeled and rated (ASTM, N95, etc) are fakes. Is it not amazing that while the western medical world could not produce enough certified masks for the medical profession over a year ago that Amazon and other sites got flooded with millions of Chinese masks claiming to be certified to lofty standards and available for sale to consumers (the medical profession would have gladly purchased them - if they were real).

May I also recommend trying the 3M 8210 N95 mask. 3M has a web portal to validate that the serial number on the bottom of the box is legitimate, Note that you need to read the instructions and pre-streach the bands prior to use, to prevent the bands from prematurely breaking.

You many need to try several different brands to find one that works to you. Cheap masks are cheap for a reason...
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17920
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:10 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Most aren’t at 8,000’ either or in otherwise poor health, depressed, have anger issues. I’ve flown some with the masks, it’s bearable, I’m not punching people out, but it might just be the marginal issue that puts some people over the edge. We’ve argued that on other threads. Masking does make me think driving is preferable at times. I’m going to Florida for a few shoots this winter, likely drive rather than fly. The cons of flying start to be offset by the pros of driving even with the considerable cons of driving down 95.


Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone. Masks have no actual effect on serum oxygen levels.

https://www.uhhospitals.org/Healthy-at- ... gen-intake


I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.

Now, that’s not a reason or an excuse for battling crews. It’s still a small percentage of all passengers fighting crews over masks. Airline travel has just gotten worse and worse over the years and masking is one more damned thing. Driving has become first class travel.


If you are noticing that much of a difference using coverings that do not block passage of O2 molecules, you really might want to ask a doc to check for ILD. Many people with ILD are asymptomatic until the lesions are fairly advanced. Or the headaches may be due to your body not liking something in that brand of mask, especially the cheap ones.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:18 am

tjwgrr wrote:
Once again... there needs to be a national no-fly list so these idiots never see the interior of any passenger aircraft again. :talktothehand:

Go Greyhound a-hole.


Or walk. Although with his martyr complex, that cross he's lugging will get kind of heavy...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14894
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:20 am

OA412 wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year.


I love it when people complain about masks being uncomfortable, the straps hurting their ears and so on....

Instead of buying the cheapest mask they can find just to comply, find one that fits and is comfy even if it is 10 cents more.

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14894
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:25 am

2175301 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m doing 8+ hour travels (flight plus terminal time) four times over the next two weeks, I’ll bring my pulse iximeter along and test myself. After 14,000 hours including many 14+ hour flights without noticing headaches, it must be a coincidence that the five airline trips wearing a mask has always resulted in headaches and feeling worse than I ever remember EWR-SIN being.


It is most likely a chemical or perfume odors in the mask that is causing your problems (allergies).

For starters - try buying ASTM Rated surgical masks from reputable Western manufactures....


Or Japan or SK. I just had a ‎IK Heal Made CO FFP2 on my face for 26 hours on the way to Thailand and while having a good fit, one could forget wearing it.

Best regards
Thomas
 
rbavfan
Posts: 4086
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:03 am

2175301 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation.


If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:


The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.


Agree to disagree Have tried my treadmill with & without a mask Including when my asthma was acting up. y blood oxygen did not drop. With the activity it tended to increase as I drew in more air while working out. My buddies gym that trains people for bodybuilding competition also requires mask when working out & they have not has a reduction in wins.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1401
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:58 am

I am really surprised that an act of violence like that, actually injuring a member of cabin crew is not treated as an act of terrorism. A few days in a dark hole should do the trick. If the US can detain people for "terrorism" just because of their language and skin colour then it should be no problem to actually lock a proper domestic terrorist away and clearly attacking flight crew during a flight should be and in my opinion is an act of domestic terrorism. There should be 0 tolerance for acts like that. A good 20 years ago people stood up and attacked cabin crew and we all know all to well what happened. So 20 years later and a passenger can just stand up, walk up to the galley and attack an FA is now treated like every casual assault?
 
rbretas
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:21 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:05 am

Many people feel lack of air and difficult breathing with a mask, specially if they are not used to wearing one (as most people weren't before the pandemic). That is purely psychological. I'm not saying it's not real. It is real and it reflects on your body, but it is psychologically underpinned nevertheless.

I suggest to anyone who feels uncomfortable wearing a mask to look for psychological or psychiatric treatment for mask anxiety if the issue is serious enough to restrict their daily activities. There is no shame in that.

That being said, what the aviation professionals feel when a layman comes here insisting that they know more about some aviation topic is the same we, health professionals and researchers, feel while reading these comments about how masks affect breathing, oxygenation levels, etc.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17920
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:06 am

rbretas wrote:
Many people feel lack of air and difficult breathing with a mask, specially if they are not used to wearing one (as most people weren't before the pandemic). That is purely psychological. I'm not saying it's not real. It is real and it reflects on your body, but it is psychologically underpinned nevertheless.

I suggest to anyone who feels uncomfortable wearing a mask to look for psychological or psychiatric treatment for mask anxiety if the issue is serious enough to restrict their daily activities. There is no shame in that.

That being said, what the aviation professionals feel when a layman comes here insisting that they know more about some aviation topic is the same we, health professionals and researchers, feel while reading these comments about how masks affect breathing, oxygenation levels, etc.


Thank you - I have been trying to make that point for over a year on behalf of HCWs in my family, but much less eloquently than you.

As for seeking help for mask anxiety and/or effects of psychosomatic issues like improper breathing, before talking to someone expensive I would recommend anyone having those problems Google breathing recovery exercises. It is relatively easy to train oneself to reset the parasympathetic system with controlled deep breathing that will restore a proper feeling in the body.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3715
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:29 am

rbretas wrote:
Many people feel lack of air and difficult breathing with a mask, specially if they are not used to wearing one (as most people weren't before the pandemic). That is purely psychological. I'm not saying it's not real. It is real and it reflects on your body, but it is psychologically underpinned nevertheless.

I suggest to anyone who feels uncomfortable wearing a mask to look for psychological or psychiatric treatment for mask anxiety if the issue is serious enough to restrict their daily activities. There is no shame in that.

That being said, what the aviation professionals feel when a layman comes here insisting that they know more about some aviation topic is the same we, health professionals and researchers, feel while reading these comments about how masks affect breathing, oxygenation levels, etc.

Except for there are pretty obvious effects which can affect physiology of breath
Increase of flow resistance - not huge but not negligible - will reduce tidal volume, especially in those less fit. Increase of dead volume due to air trapped under mask will increase effective CO2 concentration to pretty significant levels due to increased dead volume to tidal volume ratio
Blood oxygenation level is the main argument for "it doesn't matter". Blood bicarbonate level is more difficult to measure, but it will affect oxygen metabolism in the tissue.

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