If you want to save money on Christmas gifts, just bring up politics at Thanksgiving

I have not personally experienced it, but I agree that social media (and before that, traditional media) has exacerbated the tribalism of it all. Why go to the marketplace of ideas when you can just sit in the echo chamber of the internet and social media and have your views reinforced. It is intellectually hollow, but easy. People feel good when they are told they are right and it takes effort to consider, contemplate and reflect on different views.

Politicians and other political actors, acting in bad faith, have then leveraged these fissures for their own self interest. The pandemic has given further voice to the anti-science crowd and has just acted as gasoline on an already lit dumpster fire.

All of my siblings are vaccinated. A few of my nephews aren't. We didn't much care for them beforehand but felt obligated to attend their family hosted functions. Now, we don't bother. It's kind of a relief, actually.

skyservice_330 wrote:

If you want to save money on Christmas gifts, just bring up politics at Thanksgiving

I have not personally experienced it, but I agree that social media (and before that, traditional media) has exacerbated the tribalism of it all. Why go to the marketplace of ideas when you can just sit in the echo chamber of the internet and social media and have your views reinforced. It is intellectually hollow, but easy. People feel good when they are told they are right and it takes effort to consider, contemplate and reflect on different views.

Politicians and other political actors, acting in bad faith, have then leveraged these fissures for their own self interest. The pandemic has given further voice to the anti-science crowd and has just acted as gasoline on an already lit dumpster fire.

There are people who I keep as friends on social media specifically to ensure I am exposed to more than one view. I may disagree vehemently with them, but I do want to understand why they hold the views they do. Simlarly in my work I deal with a conservative state adminsitration, but am very interested in why the staffers hold the views they do.

That said, I'm possibly one of the more conservative overall in my family - even though that means that in the US context I'm somewhere to the left of the Biden administration. My US family are all registered Democrats, some more progressive than others.

Nope, got one cousin who is a far right nut. I just try to talk to him and it usually goes nowhere. So we agree to disagree. It's not worth it.

I have a formerly level-headed cousin who has gone so far to the far right that I don't even mention anything remotely political when she's in the room. She has always been to the right politically, but went off the deep end with the whole Trump MAGA, stolen 2020 election, Covid-19 conspiracies. It's gotten progressively worse since the death of her husband. She leaves the TV on 24/7 for company (understandable) but too much Fox "News" rots your brain.

NIKV69 wrote:

Nope, got one cousin who is a far right nut. I just try to talk to him and it usually goes nowhere. So we agree to disagree. It's not worth it.

Why talk politics at all?

Realistically, if you let politics get between you and your friends/family, you’re the problem. I’m the outlier amongst my siblings. They’re NY liberals and I’m not. Doesn’t mean I can’t talk to them and spend time with them. My dad is a European socialist, and I spent a week with him last month, and there’s no not talking politics in Greece.

Friends? I have friends along the whole spectrum…we’ll, not the extremes…those people are idiots and dangerous, on both sides. Maybe we talk politics, maybe we don’t, but we are not afraid to broach the various subjects with each other…because we’re adults. I can truthfully say, that I have never ended a friendship over politics. The one person that ‘left my life’ because of politics did so of her own choosing after she went off the deep end, and my wife and I wouldn’t follow.

TangoandCash wrote:

but too much Fox "News" rots your brain.

And, if you think too much MSNBC doesn’t do the same…

I have an employee, that drives me up the wall. For some reason, she likes to talk about her not being vaccinated. I tell her, I don't want to hear it, to please change the subject. It got so bad, between her and me that, she would say, why don't I just quit, and I said go ahead. Since that time, she has been actively looking for another job, now I have to hear that nobody will hire her because she won't get her vaccination shots.

She's a good worker, and I would like to keep her on, but the misinformation that comes out of her mouth is astonishing.

Now my family is another story, everyone is smart enough not to talk about politics with the exception of my brother-in-law, he told me that I would be a perfect human being if I would just switch political sides. We are both business owners, and he can't for the life of me figure out, why I'm not a Republican since I am a business owner. I for the life of me, can't figure out why money is the most important thing to him, it should be my sister, their kids, and his employees. Oh well.

I can like/love someone who differs from me politically. Its not a hill to die on IMO.

fr8mech wrote:

And, if you think too much MSNBC doesn’t do the same…

Absolutely! Or CNN, or Facebook, or TikTok...

TangoandCash wrote:

I have a formerly level-headed cousin who has gone so far to the far right that I don't even mention anything remotely political when she's in the room. She has always been to the right politically, but went off the deep end with the whole Trump MAGA, stolen 2020 election, Covid-19 conspiracies. It's gotten progressively worse since the death of her husband. She leaves the TV on 24/7 for company (understandable) but too much Fox "News" rots your brain.

Similar situation. In my sister's case, she is also one of the last people to still publicly defend the willfully unvaccinated. While that is obviously inexcusably stupid, our lot will not engage in open hostilities. I find the best way to handle that is just to understand that there is no reasoning with certain levels of ignorance. I do not, however, avoid discussion or allow her presence to be cause for extra sensitivity in that matter; she is smart enough to keep it shut or leave the room should she walk in on something.

So far, so good. I am not certain that that qualifies as a true Strain, per se, but I will say that seeing how strongly people hold to such opinions —even after the cause for same has been soundly debunked— has a certain sort of outing effect. I would not be angry with that woman, but I am disappointed that she is more limited than I thought she was.

fr8mech wrote:

Why talk politics at all?

Why talk sports? Or finance?

Politics are not the issue with people. Being immature is. I do not go out of my way to talk politics —any specific subject for that matter— but I also will not waste time with people too sensitive or boring to handle a given subject matter.

fr8mech wrote:

Friends? I have friends along the whole spectrum…we’ll, not the extremes…those people are idiots and dangerous, on both sides. Maybe we talk politics, maybe we don’t, but we are not afraid to broach the various subjects with each other…because we’re adults. I can truthfully say, that I have never ended a friendship over politics. The one person that ‘left my life’ because of politics did so of her own choosing after she went off the deep end, and my wife and I wouldn’t follow.

No politics at the Bar.. is certainly an infuriating curiosity. Socially, I do not go out of my way to talk politics for the same reason I do not go out of my way to talk airline strategy. It is a complex matter and almost no one in the general public really knows what they are talking about.

Having that been said, I see no reason not to correct someone when they are being blatantly opinionated about something they are wrong about. If that hurts their feelings, they are the problem.

fr8mech wrote:

And, if you think too much MSNBC doesn’t do the same…

That is still a false equivalency. Fast food is not good for you, but it is also not the same as eating out of a dumpster.

TangoandCash wrote:

fr8mech wrote:

And, if you think too much MSNBC doesn’t do the same…

Absolutely! Or CNN, or Facebook, or TikTok...

or airlines.net even lol.

Relationships that get strained by politics, are already strained by other factors. Politics may be the breaking point though

There are people I have to put on ignore on Facebook because even though hanging out and stuff is fun, I can't stand that they are willful forwarders/sharers of such a steady stream of political propaganda producers .


The issue with politics is too many people are beholden to the idea of being an R or a D. There are not enough independent thinkers left.

I for one find it laughable that the GOP is so up in arms over rising gas prices. (just check their GOP tweets this evening) The kings of Capitalism can't figure out supply and demand? Especially after buying their gas guzzlers.

I also can't stand that the far left continues to pretend that they should do it just because the far right does it. it being grandstanding over special fringe items.


There is too much political misguidance, and a lot of it is fed by the viscous right wing echo chamber. Sure MSNBC exists, but they don't get the viewership that the right wing fear machines do.

Also when the main cohesive idea is that an election was stolen with no supporting proof, you know the party has lost it's collective mind.

casinterest wrote:

Relationships that get strained by politics, are already strained by other factors. Politics may be the breaking point though.

This. I have a lot of friends and colleagues who differ from me politically - they are either further left or right by a long margin. It doesn’t affect anything because we all respect each other. We had a 9/11 truther in the office for years and everyone would just humor him with ‘here we go...’ whenever a couple beers brought it out.

I have a strained relationship with my dad though and my brother flat out hasn’t spoken to him in over 10 years - his kids have never met him. The limited conversations we were having would get derailed by his zeal for conspiracy theories, and he reacted immaturely when I put a line in the sand and suggested other topics. Retirement has rotted what were left of his mind and soul.

fr8mech wrote:

Why talk politics at all?

Realistically, if you let politics get between you and your friends/family, you’re the problem. I’m the outlier amongst my siblings. They’re NY liberals and I’m not. Doesn’t mean I can’t talk to them and spend time with them. My dad is a European socialist, and I spent a week with him last month, and there’s no not talking politics in Greece.

I don't as a rule and the venue's we see each other the most it's unwritten that there is no political talk but he starts once in a while. No harm, he is has his beliefs like anyone else.

LabQuest wrote:

I can like/love someone who differs from me politically. Its not a hill to die on IMO.

Same here. Respectful disagreement and healthy debate amongst reasonable adults is a good thing. But definitely as of late it seems it has become more caustic and antagonistic, all around. Never mind the deep ends of conspiracy theorizing. I think the toxic style can be a strain point, versus the actual politics/ideas themselves...if that makes sense. The exchange of ideas has been reduced to a zero sum game of 'winning'

People have to learn to get along. I try to get along with everybody in the middle 90%. The people at the extreme edges are just toxic. And I really believe this: the extreme 5%ers (both sides) would kill, or condone the killing of, anybody necessary to get the dictatorships they agitate for every day. Nothing new; the point is that these extremists get clicks, reads and views thanks to pernicious tech and media companies. It’s evil.

I refuse to break relations with anybody in the middle 90%. But some do cancel me for not being in the left 30%. More than I probably realize.

I’ve unfollowed one US buddy because of his constant Trump/Biden diatribes.

I’ve unfollowed two or three friends because of constant Covid conspiracy posts. Still see them fairly regularly in real life, but we have sorta agreed to disagree. Other then some playfull jabs back and forth we avoid the subject.

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

I'm fine talking politics, race, religion, current events, etc but I don't initiate it. Usually someone will spout off their opinions and assume I have the same views and once things take a turn not to their liking, it gets awkward.

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

We had a consultant from South Africa who liked to jab at and joke about white people in America and their politics. He was also white - would that have ‘tipped the point’ with you?

Aaron747 wrote:

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

We had a consultant from South Africa who liked to jab at and joke about white people in America and their politics. He was also white - would that have ‘tipped the point’ with you?

I love a good race joke, no matter the race of the brunt of the joke. You'd have to be more specific.

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

Obama was out of office 3 years and righties still blamed him for everything from covid to hurricanes to the stock market to Melania's coat....

I know who in my circle I can be open with and who I need to discuss the weather with. I keep up on a number of topics, outside politics. Sports, cars, movies, TV, music, beer...

BTW, what the heck is Ford doing making Maverick into a 4x4? NO! That is NOT what a Ford Maverick is! They are out of their minds! Although, I just saw the soft top and that looks pretty good. And I just saw a Wagoneer IRL for the first time. Massive! I would never buy one because it is so huge! And it is still a Chrysler product...

See how easy that is?

N626AA wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

We had a consultant from South Africa who liked to jab at and joke about white people in America and their politics. He was also white - would that have ‘tipped the point’ with you?

I love a good race joke, no matter the race of the brunt of the joke. You'd have to be more specific.

My subtext was you chose to take whatever coworkers were saying personally.

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard

Being the boss on this shift, I've pretty much banned political talk if it even looks like it'll get spirited.

Though my employees and colleagues may suspect my political leanings, I take pride that I've never confirmed them to anyone.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Why talk sports? Or finance?

My point is that if it's a known flash-point, why do it?

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

I see no reason not to correct someone when they are being blatantly opinionated about something they are wrong about

That's an interesting way of putting it...opinionated, but wrong.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

That is still a false equivalency

No, it's not. Both are politically active "news" services.

fr8mech wrote:

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Why talk sports? Or finance?

My point is that if it's a known flash-point, why do it?

I am a hockey purist. Players wear sweaters. Not jerseys, not gear, not kits but sweaters. My boss knows this. When I am having a bad day and he can see it, he talks about the new Seattle Kracken jerseys. I love my Canucks but I also know not to take sports seriously.

Except the payoff playoff of 1994. The butt of a stick under a helmet and the guy bleeding gets a five minute major? c'mon...

seb146 wrote:

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

Obama was out of office 3 years and righties still blamed him for everything from covid to hurricanes to the stock market to Melania's coat....

I know who in my circle I can be open with and who I need to discuss the weather with. I keep up on a number of topics, outside politics. Sports, cars, movies, TV, music, beer...

BTW, what the heck is Ford doing making Maverick into a 4x4? NO! That is NOT what a Ford Maverick is! They are out of their minds! Although, I just saw the soft top and that looks pretty good. And I just saw a Wagoneer IRL for the first time. Massive! I would never buy one because it is so huge! And it is still a Chrysler product...

See how easy that is?

I know what you mean. Obama has been out for what, 5 years and still taking jabs. I think every president does at this point.

I'm right there with you, brother. I tend to play devil's advocate more so than share my own opinions, so the person I'm talking to might see things from different pov but because of that, they assume I'm "not on their side".

I do love me a good beer and car talk though

N626AA wrote:

seb146 wrote:

N626AA wrote:

I work with a bunch of diehard left wingers who love to bring up politics, bash trump (nevermind he's been out of office for nearly a year), and talk about "white people this, white people that". It gets old. Once they brought up a topic that tipped the point with me and I responded with a few comebacks that they clearly didn't like. Haven't heard of much politics or current events since.

Obama was out of office 3 years and righties still blamed him for everything from covid to hurricanes to the stock market to Melania's coat....

I know who in my circle I can be open with and who I need to discuss the weather with. I keep up on a number of topics, outside politics. Sports, cars, movies, TV, music, beer...

BTW, what the heck is Ford doing making Maverick into a 4x4? NO! That is NOT what a Ford Maverick is! They are out of their minds! Although, I just saw the soft top and that looks pretty good. And I just saw a Wagoneer IRL for the first time. Massive! I would never buy one because it is so huge! And it is still a Chrysler product...

See how easy that is?

I know what you mean. Obama has been out for what, 5 years and still taking jabs. I think every president does at this point.

I'm right there with you, brother. I tend to play devil's advocate more so than share my own opinions, so the person I'm talking to might see things from different pov but because of that, they assume I'm "not on their side".

I do love me a good beer and car talk though

NPR is releasing every episode of Car Talk from day one! I have been listening to them in order and they have not started with their list of staff credits. Like the Car Talk Seat Cushion tester: Mike Easter or the Director Of Vengeance Ewell Rudy Day. I loved that show....

fr8mech wrote:

My point is that if it's a known flash-point, why do it?

Depends on the situation. I agree with how you handle work. That used to be the case for me as well, although that no longer applies.

As mentioned, if I am not on stage I do not look for that particular sort of trouble. I just do not run from it either. Most people know where I stand anyway.

fr8mech wrote:

That's an interesting way of putting it...opinionated, but wrong.

I am always partial to 'seldom correct, but never in doubt...'

fr8mech wrote:

No, it's not. Both are politically active "news" services.

I agree that MSNBC is not BBC, Al J, or NPR.

But Fox is not Fox because they are conservative. They are Fox because they simplify things to a degree that renders them little better than Facebook Memes. They are not OAN bad, but I think that is largely because they do a credible job with Finance news.

seb146 wrote:

NPR is releasing every episode of Car Talk from day one! I have been listening to them in order and they have not started with their list of staff credits. Like the Car Talk Seat Cushion tester: Mike Easter or the Director Of Vengeance Ewell Rudy Day. I loved that show....

I remember less the staff credits and more their braying, hyena-like laughter. Still, good to know I can catch up.

Politics is at the base of everything.
In a healthy society, politics is discussed everywhere that people meet.
We’ve got 9 major political parties.
That mean that most couples and/or friends belong to different parties. Maybe not those on the opposite side of the spectrum, but at least in the neighbourhood, so to speak. My wife and I are members of different political parties. My party is in government right now. My Wife’s isn’t.

I think this is different in the US where there are just 2 parties that counts, and where one of them has gone totally ballistically crazy, and think the whole world is a conspiracy against them. I can see how that makes politics sensitive. It also makes it even more important to include in your daily chat!

Only one of our 9 parties is so far out on the fringe, that they could be considered tangenting that one american party. Although I think even they are pretty split in that question. 20 years ago that would have been different. The alignement to american politics would have been more down the middle, but now the americans has moved so far right, that it is almost difficult to grasp how radical it is.

Newark727 wrote:

seb146 wrote:

NPR is releasing every episode of Car Talk from day one! I have been listening to them in order and they have not started with their list of staff credits. Like the Car Talk Seat Cushion tester: Mike Easter or the Director Of Vengeance Ewell Rudy Day. I loved that show....

I remember less the staff credits and more their braying, hyena-like laughter. Still, good to know I can catch up.

My girlfriend's son is a dyed in the wool liberal. His girlfriend is a hard core MAGA and anti-vaxxer. They are perfectly compatible except politically and it is almost certainly going to end what is an otherwise blissful relationship. I think the last straw is going to be if she loses her very well paying job because she won't get vaccinated. Her entire family is on the same side politically as she is. At family gatherings, we steer well clear of political discussion and everyone gets along fine.
I have a friend who is at the very far left end of the spectrum. If we are out hiking and he start in, I just politely listen to his rants and don't debate with him. When he's done, I change the subject completely.

ER757 wrote:

My girlfriend's son is a dyed in the wool liberal. His girlfriend is a hard core MAGA and anti-vaxxer. They are perfectly compatible except politically and it is almost certainly going to end what is an otherwise blissful relationship. I think the last straw is going to be if she loses her very well paying job because she won't get vaccinated. Her entire family is on the same side politically as she is. At family gatherings, we steer well clear of political discussion and everyone gets along fine.
I have a friend who is at the very far left end of the spectrum. If we are out hiking and he start in, I just politely listen to his rants and don't debate with him. When he's done, I change the subject completely.

‘When he’s done’... Some folks really do carry on for quite awhile

My once best friend's wife is so political, she cut him off from me. I don't think she realizes his politics aren't hers...

casinterest wrote:

The issue with politics is too many people are beholden to the idea of being an R or a D. There are not enough independent thinkers left.

I agree too much R vs. D, bit misinformation goes both ways.

eh, I piss off both sides as I have independently come to my own opinion on many issues that swap which party as I care about the issue, not the party.

e.g., I have just cut the cord and only read news as I want information. There were things I personally witnessed that were portrayed the opposite by one or the other party's political PR (US TV news is now that bad). e.g., I witnessed a Republican pro-vaccine speech that was cut to look anti-vax. I witnessed a Democratic rally that was quite centric, but cut to look socialist and anti-small business.

Our attention span has gotten too short. We are also wonky after lockdown, myself included. e.g., I went to my first big social event last weekend and I knew I wasn't myself.

Lightsaber

I dont live in India anymore, but even for those of us who are living outside, it got a lot more toxic post 2014 when the Hindutva Maniacs won the elections.

Every single WhatsApp group - Family, College, First Job, Condo groups - is filled with Toxic, hate filled posts aimed at Muslims and Christians. Post 2018, against Sikhs as well.

Friends we grew up with, Cousins, Uncles, former colleagues - everyone who once mattered to me had turned into some crazy hate filled beast overnight. Even Desi 'Community' whatsapp groups in Canada/Seattle were filled with the same toxic nonsense.

Even for someone living outside the country, this toxic nonsense can get to you! My solution is to quit all desi whatsapp groups, including the Family groups. Never discuss politics with other Upper caste Hindus because those conversations always end up centered on Hatred. Not even family. Have even cut down my Temple visits because I inevitably end up running into this Toxic species called the 'Hindu Nationalist' big brother living in Canada who thinks "20 years of Fascist Dictatorship is what India needs!"

I dont need that negative energy in my life. Om Shanti!

BawliBooch wrote:

I dont live in India anymore, but even for those of us who are living outside, it got a lot more toxic post 2014 when the Hindutva Maniacs won the elections.

Every single WhatsApp group - Family, College, First Job, Condo groups - is filled with Toxic, hate filled posts aimed at Muslims and Christians. Post 2018, against Sikhs as well.

Friends we grew up with, Cousins, Uncles, former colleagues - everyone who once mattered to me had turned into some crazy hate filled beast overnight. Even Desi 'Community' whatsapp groups in Canada/Seattle were filled with the same toxic nonsense.

Even for someone living outside the country, this toxic nonsense can get to you! My solution is to quit all desi whatsapp groups, including the Family groups. Never discuss politics with other Upper caste Hindus because those conversations always end up centered on Hatred. Not even family. Have even cut down my Temple visits because I inevitably end up running into this Toxic species called the 'Hindu Nationalist' big brother living in Canada who thinks "20 years of Fascist Dictatorship is what India needs!"

I dont need that negative energy in my life. Om Shanti!

I have heard similar from friends and colleagues of Indian descent...it is absolute madness.

johns624 wrote:

All of my siblings are vaccinated. A few of my nephews aren't. We didn't much care for them beforehand but felt obligated to attend their family hosted functions. Now, we don't bother. It's kind of a relief, actually.

Hold on, you don't attend because a few of your nephews aren't vaccinated? Or you don't attend because your siblings are?

Reinhardt wrote:

johns624 wrote:

All of my siblings are vaccinated. A few of my nephews aren't. We didn't much care for them beforehand but felt obligated to attend their family hosted functions. Now, we don't bother. It's kind of a relief, actually.

Hold on, you don't attend because a few of your nephews aren't vaccinated? Or you don't attend because your siblings are?

We don't attend because the nephews and their wives and kids aren't. Holiday and birthday parties are crowded and we'd prefer not to spend all that time indoors with unvaccinated people, even though we're vaccinated.

I don't think it's a politics issue, it's a misinformation issue. People having clashing political views has always been a thing. People living in LaLa Land and doing all they can to drag others down with them is a relatively new phenomenon. If someone has an opposing political outlook to me then I'm happy to agree to disagree and there's not really an issue. If they're spouting absolute baloney about "plandemic", "masks = slavery", "vaccines are altering your DNA to make you subservient to the globalists who will use it to kill you" etc then they've clearly fallen down a disinformation rabbit hole.....I'd love to help dig them out of said rabbit hole but I'm not necessarily willing to compromise my own sanity to do so.

One thing I'm really grateful for is that noone really close to me has fallen down one of these rabbit holes. I can't imagine the heartbreak it must entail for those who do have a close family member, friend or spouse living in an alternate reality. It also seems like for some people living down the rabbit hole, being cut off by friends/family members is somewhat of a badge of honour.

Person #1. A cousin. We were a little estranged growing up due to a divorce (and due to him being about a decade older than me) and I've probably only seen him ~15 times in my life. Anyway I met up with him in Sweden two years ago, had lunch with him and it was generally a pleasant catch up. Fast forward to mid way through this year and for some reason he starts forcing all of his far-right political views on me through Instagram. I'm absolutely certain that I didn't voice any political viewpoints with him when we met in Sweden and I don't do so on Instagram either. Nevertheless he seems to have formed the idea that I'm somehow far-left and is inundating me with all sorts of bile about how leftism is the source of all the worlds problems, George Soros being a puppet master of the New World Order, how Joe Biden + Justin Trudeau + Arden + Macron are all somehow the same as Josef Stalin etc etc. Lots of stuff about Muslim being bad and refugees too, as you can imagine. Doesn't really respond to any pushback but I've pretty much stopped trying. Whilst I don't want to cut this person out of my life, I'd be happy to if it wasn't for the fact that there's an upcoming wedding which we are all expected to be at....

Person #2. Ex coworker. Is sending me on WhatsApp an inordinate amount of links to videos on BitChute and other such far-right extremist websites, usually about vaccine misinformation, "definitive proof of the plandemic", "it's just the flu", "Ivermectin saves lives" etc. They go completely mental whenever I point out that "COVID is a chinese bio weapon" and "covid doesn't kill anyone, it's all faked by big pharma and the New World Order" are surely mutually exclusive concepts. What I really struggle to understand is how you can completely debunk one bit of nonsense and they'll move onto a second bit of nonsense which is completely at odds with the first bit and they'll believe it just as strongly. This is the bit I find most fascinating about it all; the way they'll jump from conspiracy to conspiracy so quickly yet be so absolutely adamant that the conspiracy they're currently clinging to is absolutely the truth. Oh and they also take extreme offense to calling any of their beliefs 'conspiracies'.

There's a handful of others but they're either more distant or not substantially different from the two I've already written about.

My biggest annoyance in all this is the absolute inability of these people to keep their own views to themselves. Why do they feel the need to impose it on others? If it was someone I'd previously talked politics with then maybe I'd understand them starting new conversations with me about these things. But no, I'm extremely disciplined at not bringing any politics whatsoever to the workplace or family gatherings. It's really not hard.

The one silver lining to this is that there's quite a few people in my life who, 18 months ago I'd have thought would be prime targets for falling down the rabbit hol,e but are infact absolutely on the straight and narrow.

Aaron747 wrote:

I have heard similar from friends and colleagues of Indian descent...it is absolute madness.

John Oliver did a good segment on it a few weeks ago about misinformation being shared through WhatsApp, Telegram etc. It's particularly rampant among non English language communities - apparently due to no moderation - and there seems to be a huge effort under way to exploit it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jtFqWq5iU

No subject is really taboo for me, certainly not politics. It's an integral part of much of our lives. Having said that, virtually every conversation I've had about politics is just a discussion like any other. We all have differing opinions and it's nice to bounce thoughts and ideas around. If we don't, how do we develop our opinions? How to we get a wider perspective about the world from others whose views we might actually care about?

Where this falls down almost every time is if a US citizen is involved. Not ashamed to say it, but the level of "I'm right and you are wrong so I'm not even going to listen to you" is something I rarely see at anything like that level anywhere else. I don't live in my country of birth and more often than not I socialise with people from a huge range of backgrounds and nationalities. Don't get me wrong, I've had some amazing conversations with US citizens about many things, but when it comes to politics, the ability to discuss seems to instantly vanish.

Please post on topic.

zkojq wrote:

I don't think it's a politics issue, it's a misinformation issue. People having clashing political views has always been a thing. People living in LaLa Land and doing all they can to drag others down with them is a relatively new phenomenon. If someone has an opposing political outlook to me then I'm happy to agree to disagree and there's not really an issue. If they're spouting absolute baloney about "plandemic", "masks = slavery", "vaccines are altering your DNA to make you subservient to the globalists who will use it to kill you" etc then they've clearly fallen down a disinformation rabbit hole.....I'd love to help dig them out of said rabbit hole but I'm not necessarily willing to compromise my own sanity to do so.

One thing I'm really grateful for is that noone really close to me has fallen down one of these rabbit holes. I can't imagine the heartbreak it must entail for those who do have a close family member, friend or spouse living in an alternate reality. It also seems like for some people living down the rabbit hole, being cut off by friends/family members is somewhat of a badge of honour.

Person #1. A cousin. We were a little estranged growing up due to a divorce (and due to him being about a decade older than me) and I've probably only seen him ~15 times in my life. Anyway I met up with him in Sweden two years ago, had lunch with him and it was generally a pleasant catch up. Fast forward to mid way through this year and for some reason he starts forcing all of his far-right political views on me through Instagram. I'm absolutely certain that I didn't voice any political viewpoints with him when we met in Sweden and I don't do so on Instagram either. Nevertheless he seems to have formed the idea that I'm somehow far-left and is inundating me with all sorts of bile about how leftism is the source of all the worlds problems, George Soros being a puppet master of the New World Order, how Joe Biden + Justin Trudeau + Arden + Macron are all somehow the same as Josef Stalin etc etc. Lots of stuff about Muslim being bad and refugees too, as you can imagine. Doesn't really respond to any pushback but I've pretty much stopped trying. Whilst I don't want to cut this person out of my life, I'd be happy to if it wasn't for the fact that there's an upcoming wedding which we are all expected to be at....

Person #2. Ex coworker. Is sending me on WhatsApp an inordinate amount of links to videos on BitChute and other such far-right extremist websites, usually about vaccine misinformation, "definitive proof of the plandemic", "it's just the flu", "Ivermectin saves lives" etc. They go completely mental whenever I point out that "COVID is a chinese bio weapon" and "covid doesn't kill anyone, it's all faked by big pharma and the New World Order" are surely mutually exclusive concepts. What I really struggle to understand is how you can completely debunk one bit of nonsense and they'll move onto a second bit of nonsense which is completely at odds with the first bit and they'll believe it just as strongly. This is the bit I find most fascinating about it all; the way they'll jump from conspiracy to conspiracy so quickly yet be so absolutely adamant that the conspiracy they're currently clinging to is absolutely the truth. Oh and they also take extreme offense to calling any of their beliefs 'conspiracies'.

There's a handful of others but they're either more distant or not substantially different from the two I've already written about.

My biggest annoyance in all this is the absolute inability of these people to keep their own views to themselves. Why do they feel the need to impose it on others? If it was someone I'd previously talked politics with then maybe I'd understand them starting new conversations with me about these things. But no, I'm extremely disciplined at not bringing any politics whatsoever to the workplace or family gatherings. It's really not hard.

The one silver lining to this is that there's quite a few people in my life who, 18 months ago I'd have thought would be prime targets for falling down the rabbit hol,e but are infact absolutely on the straight and narrow.

Aaron747 wrote:

I have heard similar from friends and colleagues of Indian descent...it is absolute madness.

John Oliver did a good segment on it a few weeks ago about misinformation being shared through WhatsApp, Telegram etc. It's particularly rampant among non English language communities - apparently due to no moderation - and there seems to be a huge effort under way to exploit it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l5jtFqWq5iU

Oh, there's no question misinformation is a huge part of it. My dad is convinced anyone who has been vaccinated will perish in the next 3 years from as-yet undetermined cancers and whatever. Aside from our history, I used to consider him an otherwise bright guy.

My mom used to interact with her side of the family all the time. Not so much anymore with politics (my mom left leaning while relatives are right leaning) plus many of them are against getting vaccinated.

A decade ago my sister and cousin used to be good friends and worked at a vegetable stand together. Now they despise each other with my cousin being right leaning and my sister being left leaning. I think the final nail in the coffin on their friendship was in 2016 when my cousin pretty much told my sister that she's stupid for supporting Hillary.

For me I haven't talked to most relatives in a long time, mainly because of the pandemic but also the potential for awkward conversations about politics or other sensitive topics. The last time I met with relatives for Christmas one of the topics discussed was transgender and nonbinary people. Long story short my relatives didn't have anything nice to say about that.

Late this summer my friend got back from Australia after being there for nearly 2 years. I wasn't there for the conversation but our friend group learned he wasn't getting vaccinated because he thought it wasn't worth it. Now no one in our friend group including me wants to invite him to gatherings.

af773atmsp wrote:

My mom used to interact with her side of the family all the time. Not so much anymore with politics (my mom left leaning while relatives are right leaning) plus many of them are against getting vaccinated.

A decade ago my sister and cousin used to be good friends and worked at a vegetable stand together. Now they despise each other with my cousin being right leaning and my sister being left leaning. I think the final nail in the coffin on their friendship was in 2016 when my cousin pretty much told my sister that she's stupid for supporting Hillary.

For me I haven't talked to most relatives in a long time, mainly because of the pandemic but also the potential for awkward conversations about politics or other sensitive topics. The last time I met with relatives for Christmas one of the topics discussed was transgender and nonbinary people. Long story short my relatives didn't have anything nice to say about that.

Late this summer my friend got back from Australia after being there for nearly 2 years. I wasn't there for the conversation but our friend group learned he wasn't getting vaccinated because he thought it wasn't worth it. Now no one in our friend group including me wants to invite him to gatherings.

Given the thread question was about politics, is there a strong sense that Covid response and vaccination is a partison issue in the USA?

In Australia we have a conservative national government and a mix of conservative and Labor governments across the states. Yet support for vaccination is bipartisan - around 30% of the national population lives in my state, which has a conservative government, yet over 90% of the 12+ population is fully vaccinated.

At this point in time, I think people are probably OK with talking politics with friends and family, but would exclude people based on vaccination choice. The unvaccinated aren't allowed to go to restaurants or hotels anyway.

Well I have to say although both sides can have those too caught up in politics, in my workplace (the same as the theme of this workplace) the toxicity is definitely from the right. At worst a leftist opinion is something like “we should have universal healthcare” and generally that’s it. No “workers of the world unite!” no “Mother Earth is in pain!” no “we need to dismantle the patriarchy!”, just pretty common sense centre left stuff.

The right however......
Has just gone further and further right the last few years and boy do they not stop talking about it. Trump worship, MAGA, anti Vax, QAnon, Soros conspiracies, Bill Gates conspiracies, Democrats are ruining everything!, Marxists are taking over everything, it’s going to be illegal to be a Christian soon etc.

The sort of centre right people who are like “I’d prefer lower taxes and a bit less government ownership of things but generally don’t need to act like a evangelical nutjob” don’t seem to exist at all. People who thought like that 5 years now seem to have gravitated to the far right MAGA/QAnon camp

sierrakilo44 wrote:

The sort of centre right people who are like “I’d prefer lower taxes and a bit less government ownership of things but generally don’t need to act like a evangelical nutjob” don’t seem to exist at all. People who thought like that 5 years now seem to have gravitated to the far right MAGA/QAnon camp

We have a lot of this type in California, and quite a few Dems too in my age group over 40 who also say things like 'our state owes a lot on public pensions and we should be keeping an eye on needless spending. Taxes are too high and it'll eventually affect the economy'. People are too educated in most metro areas to plunge into MAGA/Q nonsense.

Many of us have nuanced political and social views on 'both sides' on can 'agree to disagree' on with family, friends and co-workers. Sadly the Covid-19 pandemic made it a lot worse. It will be like walking on a minefield this year at in person holiday events, just hoping you don't hit the wrong spot and get out 'alive'.

One can believe we need 'medicare for all', so don't go broke if sick but not destroy the quality and limits on access. We don't want foreign nationals who have illegally entered or reside in the USA to be treated inhumanely, made a target of hate, but want much stricter enforcement of immigration and our borders. We don't want police to use excessive force on Black criminal suspects but we don't believe in 'defund the police'. We have no problem with non-violent protest but don't want violence, vandalism, looting when things go wrong in a community. We want honest education of history in our schools, including as to slavery and racism but not mobs violently vandalizing and destroying statutes and memorials those involved with enslavement or the CSA. We want freedom of religion but not have religious groups and followers to get away with criminal behaviors from sexual abuse to financial fraud.

Still there are political and social issues where many of us, including me, take a hard stand on and where it may be difficult to navigate family and friend relationships. Donald Trump's attempts to overthrow the results of the 2020 Presidential election by supporting acts of terrorism inside the US Capitol on 1/6/21 and abusing his powers of office on local election officials is one of them. I will never budge from my view that Trump was very wrong on that. I don't want people intimidating, threatening the lives of public officials and families if disagree with a view on education, social issues. I want to see a much fairer forms of taxation, the rich pay a 'fair share' and the middle class get a break. I want all as possible get the Covid-19 vaccines to reduce the risk of infections to me as well as billions of others.