casinterest wrote:

Why ? Those that have been paying attention for the last 20 years know that crime means criminal intent. The DOJ is investigating Criminal Intent. So it is not a delfection to say to wait for the DOJ on it.

Nothing Biden or his team have done indicates criminal intent based on current reports.

Sp please again explain why you may beleive this to be a crime.
'

I won’t question your legal education or knowledge as it is very apparent.

If you are going to continue changing the subject to “why I think Biden committed a crime” please first review the thread and find the post where I claimed that he did commit a crime.

IPFreely wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Why ? Those that have been paying attention for the last 20 years know that crime means criminal intent. The DOJ is investigating Criminal Intent. So it is not a delfection to say to wait for the DOJ on it.

Nothing Biden or his team have done indicates criminal intent based on current reports.

Sp please again explain why you may beleive this to be a crime.
'

I won’t question your legal education or knowledge as it is very apparent.

If you are going to continue changing the subject to “why I think Biden committed a crime” please first review the thread and find the post where I claimed that he did commit a crime.

Why ask if we think he committed acrime if you aren't going to commit to it yourself?

IPFreely wrote:

Nice try on changing the subject. I never wrote that Biden did or did not break the law — I don’t know yet. I do know that whether he did or did not has absolutely nothing to do with Trump or MAGA.

All Bricktop asked was for someone to post a yes or no answer about Biden without referencing Trump. And the first reply he got was an incoherent rambling about Trump and MAGA without any yes/no answer to the actual question.

The question has been answered truthfully & consistently throughout this thread, it's just a question of whether you choose to accept the answer, or choose to willfully ignore it.

So once more, the difference between an administrative and criminal violation of Title 18, comes down to establishment of intent. That has not been established for the Biden case, therefore his adjudication will not be criminal.

As to administrative, there will likely be findings of the documents being misplaced and/or improperly handled. If there are recommendations for improvement, I'm confident Biden will implement them. But as far as some debilitating consequence, similar to Trump, it's not likely to happen, no matter how great the insistence is from the opposing side. The facts just don't support it.

If you guys don't agree, that's fine, we can all wait to see the actual outcome. But the continuous drumbeat of equivalence that has been presented here, is neither factually supported nor likely to be the outcome. Bricktop has already made reference to that as a conspiracy or cover-up, and I have no doubt that will be the subsequent claim.

You're welcome to believe otherwise if you wish, but please understand that most of us here recognize this pattern, having witnessed it many times before, and understand completely what it represents.

How about instead of anonymous people on internet chat boards making accusations of criminal acts based on zero first-hand knowledge we leave it up to the DOJ?

What does appear to factual and beyond debate is:

1. Classified documents were found on properties owned or controlled by both Trump and Biden.
2. Trump obstructed, lied (or his attorneys did), and claimed persecution.
3. Biden cooperated, and turned over the documents (albeit with a politically convenient time lag).
4. Both men have egg on their faces.
5. Better controls need to be put in place for classified documents.

Bricktop wrote:

More "But Trump!" blather, sadly.

Sure. It was a good faith mistake. And that they hid this from the public for 68 days is clear proof that they know they are innocent and transparent. The real truth is that meantime they were trying to hush it up and work a back-room deal with the DOJ but it got out. Then all bets were off.

Easy: if Title 18 violation standards were met by Biden, then his actions were criminal. If they were not, then it was a big fluff-up. That's the purpose of investigation - to determine extent and intent.

The reason why things escalated to raid level with Trump is because there were already too many indications of obfuscation or unwillingness to fully cooperate. This is what investigations are for, again.

QF7 wrote:

2. Trump obstructed, lied (or his attorneys did), and claimed persecution.
3. Biden cooperated, and turned over the documents (albeit with a politically convenient time lag).

Both of these statements are opinions.

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Eolesen wrote:

QF7 wrote:

2. Trump obstructed, lied (or his attorneys did), and claimed persecution.
3. Biden cooperated, and turned over the documents (albeit with a politically convenient time lag).

Both of these statements are opinions.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

I’ll bite.

What do you claim is not objectively factual about both statements?

With regard to 2:

Even if we grant the benefit of the doubt about how the documents got sent to Mar-a-Lago, when the National Archives requested them, Trump only delivered a portion of them, his attorney falsely signed an affidavit that all documents had been sent, Trump filed suit and brought about the Special Master and claimed they were declassified and otherwise delayed in complying, and posted on Truth Social and asserted elsewhere that the FBI was unfairly targeting him. Sounds like obstruction, lying, and claiming persecution to me.

With regard to 3:

Biden’s attorneys proactively contacted the archives, handed over the documents, conducted additional searches, but managed to delay for a time the story becoming public. All matters of record.

Yet another batch found in Biden's Wilmington home.

How incompetent are his team not to have found this tranche by now? His house ain't that big,
In my book, co-operation would have entailed finding these documents sooner than two and a half months after they
knew there was an issue.

This whole affair has been handled in a half-assed manner from Day One.

Bricktop wrote:

Yet another batch found in Biden's Wilmington home.

How incompetent are his team not to have found this tranche by now? His house ain't that big,
In my book, co-operation would have entailed finding these documents sooner than two and a half months after they
knew there was an issue.

This whole affair has been handled in a half-assed manner from Day One.

And now even Ron Klain has seen enough.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... step-down/

QF7 wrote:

Biden’s attorneys proactively contacted the archives, handed over the documents, conducted additional searches, but managed to delay for a time the story becoming public. All matters of record.

If Biden's attorneys conducted searches and handed over all the classified documents why does the DOJ keep finding more?

IPFreely wrote:

QF7 wrote:

Biden’s attorneys proactively contacted the archives, handed over the documents, conducted additional searches, but managed to delay for a time the story becoming public. All matters of record.

If Biden's attorneys conducted searches and handed over all the classified documents why does the DOJ keep finding more?

And why are private attorneys with zero security clearance handling classified materials?

EA CO AS wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

QF7 wrote:

Biden’s attorneys proactively contacted the archives, handed over the documents, conducted additional searches, but managed to delay for a time the story becoming public. All matters of record.

If Biden's attorneys conducted searches and handed over all the classified documents why does the DOJ keep finding more?

And why are private attorneys with zero security clearance handling classified materials?

Biden's private attorney does have a top secret security clearance. When his staff find a classified document, they stop and notify him, and he is the only one who handles it.

The DoJ is not finding any new documents. The searches are being done by Biden's attorney as per the above, then are turned over to the National Archives as required under the law. The Archives then coordinates with the DoJ as necessary. That is the normal chain of custody.

In the case of Trump, the DoJ and FBI became directly involved only because the Archives reported that Trump was holding back the materials that they knew he had, and claiming they belonged to him. Which was subsequently found to be true during the FBI search.

Avatar2go wrote:

Biden's private attorney does have a top secret security clearance. When his staff find a classified document, they stop and notify him, and he is the only one who handles it.

The DoJ is not finding any new documents. The searches are being done by Biden's attorney as per the above, then are turned over to the National Archives as required under the law. The Archives then coordinates with the DoJ as necessary. That is the normal chain of custody.

You say that like it makes it better that classified documents sat unguarded in a garage of a private residence for six years while the person responsible lectured others about handling classified materials.

EA CO AS wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Biden's private attorney does have a top secret security clearance. When his staff find a classified document, they stop and notify him, and he is the only one who handles it.

The DoJ is not finding any new documents. The searches are being done by Biden's attorney as per the above, then are turned over to the National Archives as required under the law. The Archives then coordinates with the DoJ as necessary. That is the normal chain of custody.

You say that like it makes it better that classified documents sat unguarded in a garage of a private residence for six years while the person responsible lectured others about handling classified materials.

Would you prefer POTUS and supporters call the investigators Gestapo and demand return of the docs?

Avatar2go wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

If Biden's attorneys conducted searches and handed over all the classified documents why does the DOJ keep finding more?

The DoJ is not finding any new documents. The searches are being done by Biden's attorney as per the above, then are turned over to the National Archives as required under the law. The Archives then coordinates with the DoJ as necessary. That is the normal chain of custody.

A correction to what I stated above. Yesterday the FBI conducted a thorough search of Biden's home, that was authorized by the Bidens. So the DoJ has in fact found more documents.

The FBI requested permission to search, before Biden's attorneys had completed their own search. This was done by US Attorney John Lausch, who is heading the investigation, to ensure the search was thorough and was done with DoJ oversight.

The Bidens were asked to not disclose the search until today, as the FBI did not want a repeat of the media circus surrounding the search at Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/politics ... index.html

Avatar2go wrote:

the FBI did not want a repeat of the media circus surrounding the search at Mar-a-Lago.l

Why not? Why the double standard?

Oh, never mind. (D)

Got it.

Moving on...

Aaron747 wrote:

Would you prefer POTUS and supporters call the investigators Gestapo and demand return of the docs?

I would prefer they not be hypocrites and admit he effed up just as badly, if not worse, as the other guy.

EA CO AS wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

the FBI did not want a repeat of the media circus surrounding the search at Mar-a-Lago.l

Why not? Why the double standard?

Oh, never mind. (D)

Got it.

Moving on...

Well, no, this too is a false equivalence. The media circus occurred because Trump tweeted to the world that he was being raided. He had to rally his followers to the fact that he was being persecuted (as always), and that is when the media descended. Amazing how convenient our memories are!!!

This is actually a good demonstration of the difference in character between the two men. Biden has cooperated and allowed the investigation to move forward unimpeded. Trump protested every step of the way, until the Supreme Court refused to listen any longer.

EA CO AS wrote:

Why not? Why the double standard?

Oh, never mind. (D)

Got it.

Moving on...

Oh that news media, always in the tank for the Democratic... party?

I have to laugh at the fact that this has been going on for four months that we know of, and they're still finding more documents.

Either Bidens lawyers are seriously incompetent or someone behind the scenes decided death by a thousand cuts is the only sure way to make him unelectable. If so, a brilliant strategy to clear the field for someone else in 2024.

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Eolesen wrote:

I have to laugh at the fact that this has been going on for four months that we know of, and they're still finding more documents.

Either Bidens lawyers are seriously incompetent or someone behind the scenes decided death by a thousand cuts is the only sure way to make him unelectable. If so, a brilliant strategy to clear the field for someone else in 2024.

Again a convenient memory. This went on for 18 months with Trump, and they found more documents as recently as December, making it 22 months. Wouldn't that also be laughable, to an even greater degree?

EA CO AS wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

the FBI did not want a repeat of the media circus surrounding the search at Mar-a-Lago.l

Why not? Why the double standard?

Oh, never mind. (D)

Got it.

Moving on...

Indeed, that is what the d stands for.

Newark727 wrote:

Oh that news media, always in the tank for the Democratic... party?

Or perhaps they are doing the bidding of the Democrat party and starting the torpedoing of Biden 2024. Because it wasn't MAGA News who broke this story, and not only Fox asking questions, now is it?

Bricktop wrote:

Try reading what I said. I want to discuss this FORGETTING TRUMP FFS. You can't discuss Biden's issues exclusively without bringing Trump into it because it shows gross incompetence on the part of Biden and his team at the very least, and only gets worse from there.

Now if you can say with a straight face that it is all really much ado about nothing, that if Trump had done none of the things he is accused of that this wouldn't even make page A26, then at least you are being honest. Wrong, IMO but at least honest.

I've stated repeatedly in this thread, that Biden's possession of classified documents is an administrative violation of Title 18. As the vast majority of Title 18 violations are, because they don't involve the intent that is required to establish criminality.

I also gave the punishments for administrative violations, which generally involve revocation of clearance & access, as well as disciplinary action involving their employment.

Biden is a sitting President, so those actions don't apply to him. They may apply to people on his staff, but after 6 years, I doubt those people would be punished, if they are even still around.

Those are the facts. You are welcome to refute them, if you believe they are incorrect. If you wish to define 25 documents from 6 years ago as gross incompetence, that's fine, that's your opinion, to which you are entitled.

But you certainly can't expect everyone else to share that opinion. Further it should be understandable to you, that to state that opinion, invites immediate comparisons to Trump.

Avatar2go wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Try reading what I said. I want to discuss this FORGETTING TRUMP FFS. You can't discuss Biden's issues exclusively without bringing Trump into it because it shows gross incompetence on the part of Biden and his team at the very least, and only gets worse from there.

Now if you can say with a straight face that it is all really much ado about nothing, that if Trump had done none of the things he is accused of that this wouldn't even make page A26, then at least you are being honest. Wrong, IMO but at least honest.

I've stated repeatedly in this thread, that Biden's possession of classified documents is an administrative violation of Title 18. As the vast majority of Title 18 violations are, because they don't involve the intent that is required to establish criminality.

I also gave the punishments for administrative violations, which generally involve revocation of clearance & access, as well as disciplinary action involving their employment.

Biden is a sitting President, so those actions don't apply to him. They may apply to people on his staff, but after 6 years, I doubt those people would be punished, if they are even still around.

Those are the facts. You are welcome to refute them, if you believe they are incorrect. If you wish to define 25 documents from 6 years ago as gross incompetence, that's fine, that's your opinion, to which you are entitled.

But you certainly can't expect everyone else to share that opinion. Further it should be understandable to you, that to state that opinion, invites immediate comparisons to Trump.

Thank you for this. It's not all "facts", but it is well delivered.

It's your opinion that it's merely an administrative violation. Let's see where the facts actually go before we draw conclusions on that.

As for the gross incompetence, I am not referring to the taking of the documents, but rather to the poop-show of the discovery of them. Apparently the first documents were discovered on November 2, 2022. Now I am not the White House Chief of Staff, or even a high priced DC lawyer or consultant, but it might have occurred to me that a search of other locations might need to be conducted, so in the vernacular they can "get their arms around" the extent of the issue. When would I have done this search? The next day or so at the very least. If I was in charge of the Presidential Archives, I may even have asked the question on November 4 when they supposedly turned them over, "Is this all there is?". Those questions apparently were never asked. After the discovery of the second batch, they still didn't get out of first gear, to the extent the Justice Department found more yesterday when they finally got on the scene. Now that's two and a half months later. If that isn't gross incompetence, then what else do you call it?

Perhaps that's why Klain is soon out. Possibly to "pursue a once in a lifetime opportunity in real estate" as George Steinbrenner said after he fired Dick Howser (IIRC) as Yankees manager.

Bricktop wrote:

Thank you for this. It's not all "facts", but it is well delivered.

It's your opinion that it's merely an administrative violation. Let's see where the facts actually go before we draw conclusions on that.

As for the gross incompetence, I am not referring to the taking of the documents, but rather to the poop-show of the discovery of them. Apparently the first documents were discovered on November 2, 2022. Now I am not the White House Chief of Staff, or even a high priced DC lawyer or consultant, but it might have occurred to me that a search of other locations might need to be conducted, so in the vernacular they can "get their arms around" the extent of the issue. When would I have done this search? The next day or so at the very least. If I was in charge of the Presidential Archives, I may even have asked the question on November 4 when they supposedly turned them over, "Is this all there is?". Those questions apparently were never asked. After the discovery of the second batch, they still didn't get out of first gear, to the extent the Justice Department found more yesterday when they finally got on the scene. Now that's two and a half months later. If that isn't gross incompetence, then what else do you call it?

I've addressed this earlier in the thread as well. Once Garland appointed Lausch and opened an investigation, which he did within 2 days, the White House should not have commented at all. Those are the rules for dealing with active investigations. Only the DoJ should be commenting, and they won't as per their policy.

However once it leaks and the media knows, then there is intense pressure to comment, with people claiming cover-up and conspiracy. It's basically a rock and a hard place. You get killed in the press, and by the opposition, if you don't comment.

So the White House yielded and commented, and it immediately bit them in the ass, as any attorney could have told them. But that's politics in the 24/7 news cycle. They weigh the two evils and choose the lesser one.

Once the first document was found, it was inevitable that there would be a full search. The DoJ was initially patient, but with each discovery making a new splash in the news, Lausch needed to stem the bleeding and do a full search with the FBI. Which was the right thing to do, as the slow trickle was making the DoJ look bad as well.

Again if the whole thing was kept under wraps until the search & investigation were complete, that's the better outcome for everyone. But today, that is nearly impossible, even for the Supreme Court.

As things stand now, we have about 25 documents from 6 years ago or longer, of which at least a few are top secret. So now the investigation has to complete, which will take some time. But I highly doubt there will be any intent found, as the cooperation has been complete.

What I do expect, is recommendations to improve the document handling system, which I'm sure Biden and the security agencies will fully pursue.

seb146 wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Any documents a former vice president has are not as sensitive as documents of a former president. Go back up the thread and read how the vice president's documents are handled upon exit from the office versus how the president's documents are supposed to be handled upon exit from the office.

And, keep in mind Biden didn't have God knows who wandering in and out of his home. We don't know who was coming and going from Mar-A-Lago and when the documents were out.

So your defense for Biden is that his weren't the "Good Stuff", so never mind? Risible.

And as for who was wandering in and out of Biden's Wilmington home, it would include his son Hunter ("troubled" per Joe), and God knows how many drug dealers and sex workers. Perhaps you might want to reconsider using that argument too.

I never said any of that. Do we actually know ole reliable (but... but.. but... HUNTER!!!!) was ever at the Wilmington home? How many drug dealers and sex workers were at Mar-A-Lago?

All we are saying is insisting what Biden did is worse than what the former guy did is laughable at best. They are nowhere near the same in any respect. Biden did not appoint a judge he sat to oversee the documents he held. Biden did not obstruct an active investigation. Biden did not show his documents to any Tom, Dick, and Harry.

But, because Hunter somethingsomethingsomething President Biden must be the worst person ever?

I have never made any comparisons between Biden and Trump on this matter, so I invite you to quote me where I did. Good luck with that. I don't give even one crap on the comparison nonsense. Moving right along...

So you are saying that in the six years that the documents were in Wilmington that Hunter was never there? Odd since he had it listed as his address on a rental application. He was living there for heaven's sake. But that's just more Putin disinformation.

Of course I only brought poor ole MAGA victim Hunter into the discussion because you said (by the way, making comparisons between the two)

And, keep in mind Biden didn't have God knows who wandering in and out of his home. We don't know who was coming and going from Mar-A-Lago and when the documents were out.

True. We don't know who was coming in and out of Mar-a-Lago. Sex workers and drug dealers? Maybe. But if you are going to raise the subject of who was where, then pointing to Hunter at Pop's place is a fair game. He was a drug addict and consorted with sex workers. This is factual. Please don't insult our intelligence by stating that the President's son wasn't in the Wilmington house in the last six years.

But all of this is a sideshow and a distraction, standard SOP here. Talk about Biden standalone, which is what I have consistently asked.

Avatar2go wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Thank you for this. It's not all "facts", but it is well delivered.

It's your opinion that it's merely an administrative violation. Let's see where the facts actually go before we draw conclusions on that.

As for the gross incompetence, I am not referring to the taking of the documents, but rather to the poop-show of the discovery of them. Apparently the first documents were discovered on November 2, 2022. Now I am not the White House Chief of Staff, or even a high priced DC lawyer or consultant, but it might have occurred to me that a search of other locations might need to be conducted, so in the vernacular they can "get their arms around" the extent of the issue. When would I have done this search? The next day or so at the very least. If I was in charge of the Presidential Archives, I may even have asked the question on November 4 when they supposedly turned them over, "Is this all there is?". Those questions apparently were never asked. After the discovery of the second batch, they still didn't get out of first gear, to the extent the Justice Department found more yesterday when they finally got on the scene. Now that's two and a half months later. If that isn't gross incompetence, then what else do you call it?

I've addressed this earlier in the thread as well. Once Garland appointed Lausch and opened an investigation, which he did within 2 days, the White House should not have commented at all. Those are the rules for dealing with active investigations. Only the DoJ should be commenting, and they won't as per their policy.

However once it leaks and the media knows, then there is intense pressure to comment, with people claiming cover-up and conspiracy. It's basically a rock and a hard place. You get killed in the press, and by the opposition, if you don't comment.

So the White House yielded and commented, and it immediately bit them in the ass, as any attorney could have told them. But that's politics in the 24/7 news cycle. They weigh the two evils and choose the lesser one.

Once the first document was found, it was inevitable that there would be a full search. The DoJ was initially patient, but with each discovery making a new splash in the news, Lausch needed to stem the bleeding and do a full search with the FBI. Which was the right thing to do, as the slow trickle was making the DoJ look bad as well.

Again if the whole thing was kept under wraps until the search & investigation were complete, that's the better outcome for everyone. But today, that is nearly impossible, even for the Supreme Court.

As things stand now, we have about 25 documents from 6 years ago or longer, of which at least a few are top secret. So now the investigation has to complete, which will take some time. But I highly doubt there will be any intent found, as the cooperation has been complete.

What I do expect, is recommendations to improve the document handling system, which I'm sure Biden and the security agencies will fully pursue.

Key part.

"Once the first document was found, it was inevitable that there would be a full search."

Two and a half months? Seriously?

Bricktop wrote:

Key part.

"Once the first document was found, it was inevitable that there would be a full search."

Two and a half months? Seriously?

Since you are averse to referencing Trump, I will only point out that this is the kind of comment that invites comparison. And the comparison is not favorable.

I suspect that to do this search properly requires controlled conditions with attorneys and representatives of the Archives and DoJ present, across multiple locations. And for the home search, for the Bidens to be absent.

Avatar2go wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Key part.

"Once the first document was found, it was inevitable that there would be a full search."

Two and a half months? Seriously?

Since you are averse to referencing Trump, I will only point out that this is the kind of comment that invites comparison. And the comparison is not favorable.

I suspect that to do this search properly requires controlled conditions with attorneys and representatives of the Archives and DoJ present, across multiple locations. And for the home search, for the Bidens to be absent.

It is only invited because you need it. Absent the fiasco with Trump it is not favorable to Biden’s team.

DOJ left it to the Biden team and they effed it up. Finally DOJ were embarrassed enough that they had to step in. And hey presto, more docs.

Bricktop wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Key part.

"Once the first document was found, it was inevitable that there would be a full search."

Two and a half months? Seriously?

Since you are averse to referencing Trump, I will only point out that this is the kind of comment that invites comparison. And the comparison is not favorable.

I suspect that to do this search properly requires controlled conditions with attorneys and representatives of the Archives and DoJ present, across multiple locations. And for the home search, for the Bidens to be absent.

It is only invited because you need it. Absent the fiasco with Trump it is not favorable to Biden’s team.

DOJ left it to the Biden team and they effed it up. Finally DOJ were embarrassed enough that they had to step in. And hey presto, more docs.

We'll see if that is the conclusion of the DoJ or FBI. Right now, I see no evidence that it is. I suspect that's why they asked and received permission from the Bidens, instead of executing a warrant.

Avatar2go wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Since you are averse to referencing Trump, I will only point out that this is the kind of comment that invites comparison. And the comparison is not favorable.

I suspect that to do this search properly requires controlled conditions with attorneys and representatives of the Archives and DoJ present, across multiple locations. And for the home search, for the Bidens to be absent.

It is only invited because you need it. Absent the fiasco with Trump it is not favorable to Biden’s team.

DOJ left it to the Biden team and they effed it up. Finally DOJ were embarrassed enough that they had to step in. And hey presto, more docs.

We'll see if that is the conclusion of the DoJ or FBI. Right now, I see no evidence that it is. I suspect that's why they asked and received permission from the Bidens, instead of executing a warrant.

See, the Biden team didn’t need any of that warrant stuff. Maybe this could have been asked in early November. “Sir, is there a chance there are any more documents anywhere else, like your home?” I honestly can’t conceive that it wasn’t asked. IAC, the team’s incompetence isn’t a crime in the legal sense. If it’s just incompetence that is. And that’s the best spin.

After the second set of docs were found, the search was complete.

After the third set of docs were found, the search was complete.

After this fourth set of docs, will we hear the search was complete?

Probably.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

You'll see a conspiracy if that's what you're looking for. And if you ignore the "other" high profile search which took 6 times longer, but generates complaints if we talk about that.

On the other hand, if you see it as an expanding search, which is it what it was, then no conspiracy is needed, and it's a routine result. We don't know how many papers were searched to arrive at the 25 that were found. A few more are found at each location. And it's again a small fraction of the "other" search that we aren't allowed to discuss.

The search at Biden's home was expanded from the storage areas, to his office and current personal papers. Just as in the "other" search. We'll have to wait for the inventory to see what was found, as we did in the "other" search as well.

And after all that, there is still the lack of intent, which we also aren't allowed to discuss as it draws in the "other" search.

Bricktop wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

It is only invited because you need it. Absent the fiasco with Trump it is not favorable to Biden’s team.

DOJ left it to the Biden team and they effed it up. Finally DOJ were embarrassed enough that they had to step in. And hey presto, more docs.

We'll see if that is the conclusion of the DoJ or FBI. Right now, I see no evidence that it is. I suspect that's why they asked and received permission from the Bidens, instead of executing a warrant.

See, the Biden team didn’t need any of that warrant stuff. Maybe this could have been asked in early November. “Sir, is there a chance there are any more documents anywhere else, like your home?” I honestly can’t conceive that it wasn’t asked. IAC, the team’s incompetence isn’t a crime in the legal sense. If it’s just incompetence that is. And that’s the best spin.

It’s just as possible Biden is as mentally challenged as his detractors allege, and in that scenario, he would be unlikely to accurately respond to your example query.

So here is a good article that explains the sequence of searches of Biden properties, and why they unfolded as they did.

After the first classified document was found at Penn Center, Biden's attorneys interviewed people who packed up his VP boxes. The materials were divided into two groups. The first group was official records, for which the originals went to the Archives, and Biden retained copies. These went to the Penn Center office.

The second group was non-official records, and those went to Biden's home. Therefore initially there was no suspicion that they would include classified documents. However as a matter of due diligence, the attorneys began checking those records as well.

Once classified records were discovered there, the Bidens agreed to search the entire premises, and to have the search conducted by the FBI.

Also once the DoJ appointed Lausch to investigate, the Biden team halted their interviews with the people who packed the boxes, and turned that investigation over to Lausch. It's still pending.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/p ... tment.html

Nancy Pelosi has now weighed in on the issue and she is not pleased.

WASHINGTON, DC — After multiple caches of highly classified government documents were found in different locations belonging to President Joe Biden, the United States Department of Justice acted swiftly to indict former President Donald Trump for the alleged crime.

"This is a serious violation of federal regulations," Attorney General Merrick Garland said in a press briefing announcing the indictment. "We will take all measures available to the Justice Department to hold Donald Trump accountable for President Biden being found in possession of these documents."





"No one is above the law."

Sensitive documents related to Ukraine, Iran, and the UK were found in an office used by Biden at the University of Pennsylvania, though investigations as to what Biden was doing for the University were still ongoing. "President Biden played such a vital role here at the University," said school spokesperson Barry Windham. "He was the head of various committees here at the school, including the…the, uh…he... so many things."

When news of the indictment broke, Trump was quick to offer his response. "How can they indict me for something Biden did? How does that make any sense?" the former President said in a post to his Truth Social account. "I was in possession of the most beautiful, perfectly filed documents WHICH I DECLASSIFIED MYSELF. This is just another WITCH HUNT! WRONG!"

At publishing time, more searches were reportedly already underway at other locations belonging to Biden, including his White House nap room and his Spongebob Squarepants lunchbox, in hopes of gathering more evidence to use against Donald Trump.

(from the Babylon Bee for those without a sense of humor or sarcasm)

Aaron747 wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

We'll see if that is the conclusion of the DoJ or FBI. Right now, I see no evidence that it is. I suspect that's why they asked and received permission from the Bidens, instead of executing a warrant.

See, the Biden team didn’t need any of that warrant stuff. Maybe this could have been asked in early November. “Sir, is there a chance there are any more documents anywhere else, like your home?” I honestly can’t conceive that it wasn’t asked. IAC, the team’s incompetence isn’t a crime in the legal sense. If it’s just incompetence that is. And that’s the best spin.

It’s just as possible Biden is as mentally challenged as his detractors allege, and in that scenario, he would be unlikely to accurately respond to your example query.

Somehow I don’t think that is something you will hear out loud from the Administration, no matter the truth of it.

seb146 wrote:

Then MAGAs need to stop comparing the two! If you want to discuss Biden, stop the whataboutism and "why is Biden being given a pass" and "why wasn't there a raid on Biden" and so forth. You can bring up the former guy without saying his name. I have been doing it for seven years.

From someone whose whole "defense" of Biden is "But Trump", charges of whataboutism by others is just too funny. I haven't done it, but in this dialogue I am alone in that.

seb146 wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

So you are saying that in the six years that the documents were in Wilmington that Hunter was never there? Odd since he had it listed as his address on a rental application. He was living there for heaven's sake. But that's just more Putin disinformation.

And who was close to Putin? Not Biden, that's for sure! Vice presidents live under a different set of security. Who was in and out of Cheney's ranch or Gore's mansion or who has been visiting Quayle? That is not as important. VPs are not as important as presidents. I am not saying just throw them away. They should have the same standard as their president. However, they don't.

So no response on the absurd premise that Hunter wasn't there. The typical sidetrack.

seb146 wrote:

The National Archives didn't even notice these documents were missing. So, how important were these documents? Obama had them, so they had to know Biden had them and, yet, National Archives said nothing. No one said anything until Biden turned in the documents.

I don't follow the point of this. That the Top Secret stuff wasn't juicy so no biggie? I suspect the Administration won't be using that line in their talking points. And why didn't the Archives say something about documents Biden had? I am guessing they didn't know after all. Tsk, tsk.

The difference in the cases summed up.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sen-coo ... d=96584867

he search was voluntary, according to federal authorities, and Biden's attorney stressed his cooperation.

"There is one important document that distinguishes former President Trump from President Biden: That's a warrant," Coons, D-Del., said on "This Week."

When we get to the end of all of this, the difference will be that Trump lied , deflected and denied everything about the documents.

Biden has been upfront and has worked with the DOJ and records archive about this issue.

casinterest wrote:

The difference in the cases summed up.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sen-coo ... d=96584867

he search was voluntary, according to federal authorities, and Biden's attorney stressed his cooperation.

"There is one important document that distinguishes former President Trump from President Biden: That's a warrant," Coons, D-Del., said on "This Week."

When we get to the end of all of this, the difference will be that Trump lied , deflected and denied everything about the documents.

Biden has been upfront and has worked with the DOJ and records archive about this issue.

Except for the part about hedging on answering re cooperation with an SC. That's a no brainer fail that puts optics control back in MAGA driver's seat.

Aaron747 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The difference in the cases summed up.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sen-coo ... d=96584867

he search was voluntary, according to federal authorities, and Biden's attorney stressed his cooperation.

"There is one important document that distinguishes former President Trump from President Biden: That's a warrant," Coons, D-Del., said on "This Week."

When we get to the end of all of this, the difference will be that Trump lied , deflected and denied everything about the documents.

Biden has been upfront and has worked with the DOJ and records archive about this issue.

Except for the part about hedging on answering re cooperation with an SC. That's a no brainer fail that puts optics control back in MAGA driver's seat.

Let's be honest though,. If criminality was a deal breaker for MAGA, MAGA wouldn't exist.

Aaron747 wrote:

Except for the part about hedging on answering re cooperation with an SC. That's a no brainer fail that puts optics control back in MAGA driver's seat.

There has been no hedging on cooperation with the special counsel. All the evidence we have, including statements of the DoJ and FBI, is that the Bidens have cooperated fully.

The Biden team was asked to comment directly on their relationship with the special counsel, and they opted not to do so. Which is prudent when under an active investigation.

But the MAGA Equivalence-O-Matic is in full gear, insisting that this prudence is somehow more meaningful than the truth. That strategy works with those who are not interested in the truth, but rather in political advantage. It doesn't work with those who are focused on the facts and the evidence.

seb146 wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Then MAGAs need to stop comparing the two! If you want to discuss Biden, stop the whataboutism and "why is Biden being given a pass" and "why wasn't there a raid on Biden" and so forth. You can bring up the former guy without saying his name. I have been doing it for seven years.

From someone whose whole "defense" of Biden is "But Trump", charges of whataboutism by others is just too funny. I haven't done it, but in this dialogue I am alone in that.

No. The defense is Biden gave back the documents with no fighting, no appointing judges, no lawyering up but, instead, followed the rules. He made a mistake, owned up to it, and corrected said mistake.

He didn't give back all the documents. His people stumbled upon them, stumbled upon some more, stumbled upon more yet again, and then DOJ found even more.
That is not "correcting said mistake" by any stretch. If he really took classified documents seriously, there wouldn't be a two and a half month timelapse. Anyone taking it seriously would have done it in a week max. And if he had "followed the rules", he wouldn't have had them in the first place, right?

As far as not lawyering up, that's just false and bizarre. Any question since this broke has been met with "I refer you to the White House Counsel's Office", and he also has personal lawyers on the job. And "I have no regrets" falls far short of owning up to it.

seb146 wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

seb146 wrote:

And who was close to Putin? Not Biden, that's for sure! Vice presidents live under a different set of security. Who was in and out of Cheney's ranch or Gore's mansion or who has been visiting Quayle? That is not as important. VPs are not as important as presidents. I am not saying just throw them away. They should have the same standard as their president. However, they don't.

So no response on the absurd premise that Hunter wasn't there. The typical sidetrack.

I did respond. We are suddenly concerned who had contact with a former VP. Something no one has ever been outraged or cared about in ever. You find comparing Biden's actions to the former guy's actions laughable but, when something happens to President Biden, the go-to response from MAGAs is "BUT HUNTER!!!" I mean, look at all the shouting and hand wringing from MAGAs over Hunter's laptop. That's all they could talk about. And, now, ole reliable comes out again.

As was pointed out, we don't know who was at Biden's home or Cheney's ranch or Quayle's home because vice presidents are only given six months of Secret Service detail after they leave office and they don't have visitor logs that must be filled out.

We are "suddenly concerned who had contact with a former VP" when that former VP improperly had classified documents in his possession in non-secure locations. Point me to where Cheney, Quayle, Gore et al had classified documents and I would be concerned about that too. Having concern about his drug-abusing, sex-worker cavorting son in proximity to said documents is legitimate, no matter how much you try and deflect with your tediously worn out MAGA card.

seb146 wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

seb146 wrote:

The National Archives didn't even notice these documents were missing. So, how important were these documents? Obama had them, so they had to know Biden had them and, yet, National Archives said nothing. No one said anything until Biden turned in the documents.

I don't follow the point of this. That the Top Secret stuff wasn't juicy so no biggie? I suspect the Administration won't be using that line in their talking points. And why didn't the Archives say something about documents Biden had? I am guessing they didn't know after all. Tsk, tsk.

When Biden was given a document, it was given to him for a specific reason. Just like documents given to Cheney or Gore or Mondale. The Archives didn't say anything probably because a VPs documents are not as important as the Presidents? Let's let the Archives tell us instead of jumping to conclusions.

But I thought Obama and Biden were closerthanthis, best buds, "Last Guy In The Room" stuff. Even so, I would be surprised if Biden didn't see 99% of the documents Obama saw, same with any VP because they have to be "ready from Day One" don't they? It's pure sophistry to argue that because he was only VP, so he was getting unimportant stuff, therefore it's no big deal.

Bricktop wrote:

He didn't give back all the documents. His people stumbled upon them, stumbled upon some more, stumbled upon more yet again, and then DOJ found even more.
That is not "correcting said mistake" by any stretch. If he really took classified documents seriously, there wouldn't be a two and a half month timelapse. Anyone taking it seriously would have done it in a week max. And if he had "followed the rules", he wouldn't have had them in the first place, right?

As far as not lawyering up, that's just false and bizarre. Any question since this broke has been met with "I refer you to the White House Counsel's Office", and he also has personal lawyers on the job. And "I have no regrets" falls far short of owning up to it.

You are just repeating your same incorrect interpretation over and over again. I posted the article that contained the actual sequence of events, and explained them, which you have ignored in favor of your alternate facts. But you can't expect people to take that seriously. It's not a good faith effort at discussion.

You objected to bringing up Trump, and I obliged. But then you come back with your own theories as to what happened, which are not factually based. And the purpose of those theories, is to paint the Biden saga in as negative a light as possible.

The best defense for those theories, is to point out the contradictions with the only other relevant case, which is Trump. You notably have not arrived at those same theories or conclusions for that case, even though the offenses were considerably worse, and did unquestionably involve intent. Which is evidence of the bias in your position.

I've said from the begining, that the false equivalence would be used here, as we've seen it dozens of times before. Your solution to that is to eliminate the equivalence part, by complaining about Trump being brought up, but continuing with the false part, in terms of misrepresentations of the facts.

So sorry, but you can't have it both ways. SEB146 is right on the money about that. If you don't want to talk about Trump, then fine, drop the theories and the falsehoods, and talk about the facts as posted. How are they incorrect, and what evidence can you provide to support that?

Unless you are willing to do that, you have no right to complain about others pointing out the false equivalence, that is blatantly evident here. There is nothing non-factual in the false equivalence argument, no basis for establishing that it is untrue.