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timz
Topic Author
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Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:28 am

Not regularly I assume, but did they do it once?

http://www.fai.org/general_aviation/records/commercial.asp?group=3&city=caracas

It seems in 1979 a Concorde averaged 1833.79 km/hr from Caracas to Paris. If that means CDG then that's 7635.4 km direct, implying 4 hours 10 minutes. Could they do that with no payload?

If not, then (I guess) the 4 hr 10 min included a stop-- at Santa Maria, likely. CCS-CDG via SMA is 7708.1 km, so if they spent even 20 minutes on the ground there they'd have to average 2000 km/hr in the air.

So which is less unlikely, 4-10 with a stop or without?
 
gigneil
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:29 am

In 1979 it would have been likely Le Bourget... possibly Orly.

It has a range of about 4000 mi. My brain isn't up to the challenge of kilometers right now.

N
 
timz
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:59 am

Why likely Le Bourget?
 
gigneil
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:09 am

Hmm back then, wasn't Le Bourget a much more active commercial airport?

N
 
MAH4546
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:08 am

The AF Concorde did fly regularly scheduled services to Caracas, as well as Rio de Janeiro and Mexico City. I think it was via Washington Dulles. AF has flown scheduled Concorde to CCS, DKR, MEX, IAD, JFK, and GIG. BA to JFK, IAD, MIA, BAH, and SIN. There maybe one or two I am missing.
a.
 
timz
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:11 am

Vaguely recall that the scheduled flight was via Santa Maria.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:39 pm

In 1979 it would have been likely Le Bourget... possibly Orly.

No it wouldnt. All AF Concorde service has always been based at CDG, even though it was still mostly/widely known as Roissy Airfield then.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:44 pm

It was always my understanding that one of Concorde's big problems (and the reason more airlines didn't buy them to begin with) is the range. LHR-JFK or IAD or CDG-IAD or JFK, are about the outer end of their range. I highly doubt any Concorde would make it from CDG-CCS non-stop!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
gigneil
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:05 pm

The "B" market Concorde would have improved both range and noise.

Unfortunately all the orders just vanished, so it was never pursued.

CDG-CCS is 4109 nm... too far. I checked.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
timz
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:18 pm

That's the mystery, all right. How could they fly it nonstop-- but how could they fly it in 4 hr 10 min elapsed time including a stop.

By the way, note in that link that Concorde's record CCS-SMA was only slightly faster than the CCS-Paris record.
 
The777Man
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:44 pm

It's not much farther than LHR-BGI which BA currently flies once a week nonstop.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
fritzi
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:44 pm

The thing is that the sector LHR-BGI is already at the maximum range limit for Concorde. If I am also not entirely mistaken, most AF Concordes are also heavier than the BA ones which decreases the range of them.

CDG-CCS wouldn´t be flown nonstop by any Concorde (hope I´m correct). My guess is that they made a fuel stop in DKR like they did when they flew CDG-DKR-GIG.

Can maybe GDB or Bellerophon give us more info regarding this??
 
GDB
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:21 am

Indeed LHR-BGI is near Concorde's range limit, however a big chunk of the flight is over the equatorial regions, at 11 miles up, the air is cooler there (but would be warmer in the Northern latitudes), this cooler air temp increases engine efficiency, on the Bahrain-Singapore sector in the late 70's, it was reckoned to give a few hundred miles more range.

As for AF aircraft being heavier, I don't know about that, I think the interiors are, but the only AF one that was definitely heavier airframe wise was the lost F-BTSC, but that was symmetrical to our own G-BOAC on the respective UK and French production lines, and Alpha Charlie is our heaviest bird, being like F-BTSC an early production aircraft.

All this stuff about Concorde having poor loads now, well I've just tried to book an ID90 for Friday's BA001, no can do, only 2 unsold seats left!
 
timz
Topic Author
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:41 am

I forgot the BGI scheduled flight-- 6752.5 km, schedule 4 hr 15 min. So maybe a one-time CCS-Paris nonstop was possible.

Davies says Air France scheduled CCS-Paris from 1976 to 1982, and it seems the stop was SMA, as expected.
 
fritzi
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:44 am

I must have been mistaken about the weights about the Concordes.



GDB, I think you now "a bit" more about the beautiful bird that you take care of than I do.  Wink/being sarcastic

[Edited 2003-03-17 19:45:36]
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:03 am

Hello,

Air France did occasionally do the return CCS-CDG flight non-stop, when the winds were good, take-off was quick and at decent temperatures. Otherwise, it stopped in the Azores IIRC. Usually, in order to buy time, the approach would not be made via Bordeaux but all the way round the Atlantic coast up to Le Havre (entry point of the JFK flights), in order to maintain speed above Mach 1 as long as possible.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
ATB - germanwings
 
donder10
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:37 am

How long did flights to DKR last?
 
timz
Topic Author
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Dakar

Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:13 am

Davies says Air France Concordes flew to Rio from 1/76 to 3/82. Presumably same dates for DKR.
 
Bellerophon
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:14 am

Timz

4h 10m would be an excellent flying time for CCS-CDG for Concorde, but could only be achieved on a non-stop flight.

It would not be possible to make a refuelling stop at the Azores in that flight time, even if you only spent 20 minutes on the ground - which in itself would be difficult, as a 45 minute stop would be much more typical.


Fritzi, MxCtrlr, Gigneil

Sorry, but the Air France Concorde did fly CCS-CDG non-stop, though it didn't manage it on every flight. I can't add much to what Alain Mengus has already posted.


GDB

As you say, flying at altitude near the Tropics, Concorde benefits from the generally very cold upper air temperatures. The engines become more efficient, fuel flows reduce, and consequently the range increases by a few hundred miles.

Some may think it odd that the upper air near the Equator is relatively cold, and that the upper air over the Poles is relatively warm, but that is what happens.

When discussing Concorde's maximum range, there is another factor, not often discussed, that I would like to mention.

Just like any other aircraft, Concorde must carry sufficient fuel on board to enable her not only to reach her destination with standard fuel reserves still remaining, but also to reach an alternate airfield, following an in-flight engine shut down at any stage of the flight.

This last part, for Concorde, needs to be carefully planned. If an engine has to be shut down in supersonic flight, Concorde will then have to descend about 25,000 ft, and slow up by around 700 mph.

In this new flight regime, now flying subsonically, in the much stronger winds and warmer temperatures below the tropopause, she is far less fuel efficient, and her maximum range will have suddenly reduced by about 25%. An airfield that may have been comfortably in range whilst cruising at FL560 and M2.0 on four engines, may no longer be in range down at FL310, and M0.95, on only three engines.

At the flight planning stage therefore, we must ensure that sufficient fuel is carried to retain a three-engined diversion capability at all times, from any point along our route, to a suitable alternate airfield.

On the long over-water routes to the Caribbean and Latin America, with only a few, distant, alternate airfields available, and adverse subsonic winds and temperatures, the fuel required to achieve this will generally exceed the fuel required to destination, and become the limiting factor.

On planning such routes, the length of the route itself often becomes of secondary importance, with the distance, and fuel required, to an in-flight alternate being of prime importance.

Regards

Bellerophon
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:25 am

and there she is...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Haddad


photo taken on one of its flights to Caracas in 1983.


 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
CV990
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RE: Did Concorde Fly Caracas-Paris Nonstop?

Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:33 am


Hi!

I also confirm that Air France flew direct to Caracas, I actually could ear from time to time in Air Traffic Control radio band the flight passing over Portugal. But I do also know that from time to time the Concord would stop at LIS for refuel.
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!

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