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FlySSC
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Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:29 am

When answering SovietJet's topic about the Tu-104 & Tu-124, I found interesting to "visit" the history of the Soviet airliners...


On July 27th 1949, the prototype of the De Havilland Comet took off for its first test flight.
This aircraft became the first commercial Jet in the aviation history with B.O.A.C on May 2nd 1952.
This a/c had the particularity to have its engines inserted in the wings...


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On september 15th 1956, Aeroflot introduces on its Moscow-Irkutsk route what was the second PAX jet in history : the Tu-104, conceived from a bomber Jet, the Tu-16. The particularity of the Tu-104 :
Its two engines were inserted in the wings...


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Then came in May 1959 the French Sud-Aviation Caravelle, the first short/medium western airliner, first aircraft with two engines at the rear of the fuselage.


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In 1963 appeared the successor of the TU-104 : the Tu-134. First Soviet Jet with...two rear engines


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1962 was the year of famous beautiful Vickers VC10, with 4 rear engines


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At the Paris Air Show in 1963, was shown to the public for the first time the Ilyushin-62, the first Soviet four-engined jet, with its two couple of engines...at the rear :


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that same year, the great Tri-jet Boeing 727 was tested on feb.29th
The first aircraft started regular service with UNITED on April 7th 1964.


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In 1968, Tupolev proposes its last model : the Tu-154, a Tri-jet airliner...


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On December 12th 1967, The Franco-British commercial supersonic airliner Concorde, of which the first studies begun in 1959 rolls out from the Toulouse factory


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On December 31st 1968, beating its western rival, the first commercial supersonic jet take the air (for a subsonic flight) : The Tu-144


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while Concorde flies for the first time in March 1969.


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CPDC10-30
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:39 am

Don't mean to nitpick, but this is wrong:

On september 15th 1956, Aeroflot introduces on its Moscow-Irkutsk route what was the second PAX jet in history

It was acutally the Avro Canada JetLiner, which flew 13 days after the Comet. http://www.avroland.ca/al-c102.shtml
 
Guest

RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:43 am

Wrong... The first one was the Vickers Viking-Nene... (1949?).
Then the Comet... Then Avro Canada Jetliner... So, that is the third...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:43 am

With the only difference that the Avro Canada JetLiner remained at the stage of prototype and never went into commercial production....and never carried a single "real passenger"...!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:57 am

Well, there's "757ski"....... with winglets to boot  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

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backfire
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:09 am

Actually, it's a little unfair to say that the Soviets directly copied Western aircraft. Yes, they look similar on a superficial level but the Soviet efforts to back-engineer Western types often resulted in a completely different aircraft.

A classic example was the reverse-engineering of the B-29 bomber. The Soviets had three real examples of the B-29 to copy from, but when Tupolev finally unveiled the Soviet equivalent (the Tu-4 bomber and Tu-70 transport) it was very different mechanically to the B-29.
 
whynottu204
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:14 am

This story may be a little off but here goes: During the Land-Lease program during WWII a B17 landed in somewhere in Siberia due to technical problems. It was immediately turned over to the "Soviet Aviation Authorities" for "inspectioin" Sometime later a duplicate was reproduced, down to the flaw that caused it to crash land to begin with. Vague, but true. If anyone has any more details or corrections, please do so...

On the flip side, the technology used to design and produce the aircraft mentioned above, at lease originally, is all Russian (Soviet). Designed and manufactured in Russia. The fact that they all came out around the same time as their western counterparts only speaks to the superiority of the Soviet Industrial Espionage.  Smile
 
Olympus69
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:16 am

SSC

Using your reasoning, that would make the B727 a copy of the Trident and the DC9 a copy of the Caravelle. Then the Dassault Mercure was a copy of the B737 and so on, and so on.
 
Guest

RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:24 am

Well, as Olympus69 points out, the Hawker-Siddeley Trident first flew before the Boeing 727, so it should be considered the "original," if that's the terminology you're using:


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FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:04 am

Olympus69, PHX-LJU, Why not ?

The DC-9 is directly inspired from the Caravelle... Don't forget that Talks were in progress between Sud-Aviation and Douglas, to build the Caravelle under license in the U.S... then suddenly Douglas stopped the negociations, and few years after proposed its successful DC9...

The 727 is a short version of the 707, using exactely the same fuselage, etc... the 3 rear engines are the only "innovation", maybe inspired by the Trident, I don't know...

I didn't mention in the Topic the IL86, though a 4 engine a/c, directly inspired from the A300, and later the IL96, very similiar to the A340...


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Russophile
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:38 am

FlySSC -- too bad the Ilyushin Il-96 first flew in 1988 and was certificated in 1992 whilst the Airbus A340 first flew in 1991 and started service in 1993 -- so who's copying who here? Those bloody Soviets.  Insane
 
FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:46 am

The Tu-144 also flew before Concorde.... and there is no doubt today that Tu-144 was built after a hard (and quite good) spy job from the Soviet Union... After all, why not ? the subject is not to put the blame on anybody... it's quite funny to compare, That's all !
 
FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:49 am

The Caravelle itself got its nose from the De Havilland Comet :
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and the Comet :
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Guest

RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:55 am

The systems of the Caravelle - hydraulics and electrical, were virtually same as the Comet's...
The engines were the same RR Avon Ra-29...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
starrion
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:09 am

It's hard to say these were copies. The basic concept might be the same, but since these aircraft came out only a couple of years behind their western counterparts, they had to be under development at the same time.

Perhaps this is a case of both sides discovering what you can do with the same resources.
 
L-188
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:27 pm

WhyNotTu204

You are thinking of the B-29's that got interned in the pacific.

The B-29's, particularly the early ones had notorious overheating problems. The Soviets ended up with the same problems in their TU-4 copy.

The TU-4 is one of the few actually soviet copies of a western design. The prototype actually used some parts from the interned aircraft.
 
B747-4U3
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:33 pm

I have to say, does it matter if the Soviets copied western airliners?

The most important part is that they modified them to suit the harsher Russian environment.

It is the same with Homer and Virgil. People say that The Aeneid by Virgil is simply a copy of The Odyssey and The Iliad by Homer. Whilst there are a number of very similar elements, Virgil essentially added to Homer's work and created a much more developed story, which in my opinion is much better.
 
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keesje
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:27 pm

I think strory lines like this are typically cold war stuff.

The Sovietsystem was bad and surpressing for everyone, so it didn´t fit in it could create anything innovative / creative. Impressive soviet products therefor had to be copies or stolen ideas.

On the aircraft : they look only remotely similar. When taking a closer look on design requirements/ specifications, materials, structures, systems, cockpits, aerodynamics, maintenance programs etc. it becomes clear those are unique designs by teams of talented & creative russian designers.

The folks who put a man in space in the fifties were able to come up with their own airliner designs that best suited their specific needs a few yrs later.

When looking for real "knowlegde transfer" of aerospace technology in the fifties/sixties take a good look at the German technology during WW2 and how it (they) were absorbed by western and eastern development agency´s afterwards.

cheers

keesje

 
Aviadvigatel
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:19 pm

FlySSC- there are a couple of things you have missed:

The Tu-16 was originally going to have its Mikulin turbojets on pylons under the wings, but because they were so long, its designer, Dmitri Markov, decided to put them in the wing roots, as per the Comet. The Tu-104 used the same systems, wings and tail, but a new fuselage on which the wings sat lower. Tupolev also reinforced the window frames in light of the Comet 1 crashes.

The layout of the Tu-134 was directly influenced by the Caravelle. Whilst visiting France in 1960, Nikita Kruschev flew on the Caravelle and was impressed by the quiet cabin. Back in Moscow, Tupolev was summoned and told to design a plane with a similar layout.

The Tu-154 project was started in 1965 and because of a need to operate form unpaved runways, it was sensible to mount the engines on the fuselage to reduce the chance of debris ingestion. Three engines were needed to give the plane enough power - where else could the third engine go! So it was bound to resemble the Trident and 727.

The Il-62 certainly resembled the VC10, but both needed a aerodynamically clean and efficient wing of larger area, than say the 707, to be able to operate from shorter runways.

When the IL-86 was first shown as a model in 1972, the four engines were at the back, with a T-tail. The first mock up of the A300 was shown at Farnborough in 1968, and clearly did not influence the Soviet plane. The change to the Il-86 was more likely due to weight distribution and balance problems, caused by the large Kuznetsov engines. Even early 154's had to have their tails propped up, before passengers disembarked and all versions of the IL-62 had a fourth 'leg'.

Lastly, what plane with two or four engines under the wing isn't going to look like something else. Was the 737 a copy of the Nene Viking or the Tay Viscount? The 707 a copy of the Avro Lancastrain? Of course not.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:23 pm

I think it is wrong to say "copies" becuase that has a negative ring. It may be that Soviet and Western scientists were both on a learning curve and hence the similarity of designs in the initial phase.

But from the 70's onwards, you see the Soviets and the Western designs take radically diferent approaches. I think Soviet designs were quite good. Where they lost out was an overemphasis on the military aspect. I dont think the Russians ever paid as much attention to their civilian designs as they did to their military aircraft.

-Roy
 
FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:47 pm

I think I chose the wrong world when I wrote "copies", as it doesn't reflect what I meant in posting this topic. It seems this world has a pejorative signification to most of you which was not at all my intentions.

40 or 50 years ago, we were living in two different hermetic world (East and West) and you seem to forget there was a REAL war (even cold) between the two sides who wanted to prove their supremacy in all fields, including of course aviation.

There was absolutely no cooperation between the Nations at that time (for aviation of course) and I think it is funny when you look at the evolution of the airliners industry on both sides in those decades...

It is clear that the Tu134 is directly inspired from the Caravelle, but the DC-9 also is directly inspired from the French twin-jet, and the IL62 is obviously inspired from the VC10, though it was of course built differently. I don't say it's bad, or that it's the result of spying...

The only proved result of spying is the Tu-144. I think nobody can deny it !

 
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RayChuang
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:19 am

I think people are forgetting that the Soviet had excellent aerodynamic scientists based at TsAGI, the Central Aero and Hydrodynamics Institute. That's why the Soviets often developed excellent jet airplanes like the Il-62 and Tu-154, which while maybe inspired by Western designs had a lot of good features on its own. If the Soviet Union had last just a little longer planes like the Tu-204 and Tu-334 would have been in very widespread service, and it would have been very popular in Third World countries in especially Africa.
 
Horus
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:01 am


Aren't the Tu-204s like 60% cheaper than 757s and have similar flight operations and efficiency (with RR engines).


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Aerosvit
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:18 am

Yes Rusophile...thank you...

Copy? Not to mention that half of those soviet aircrafts came before the westerners flew their type.

On another note, besides the noise factor, Russians make very nice aircrafts. People dont just copy each other. Sure some designs might be similiar but the techinical part is probably either better or worse.
 
chrisdigo
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:24 am

In this case the similarities are troubling... But they are both great!  Smile



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Chris
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:43 am

Here is the only real copy (built under license):
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airxliban
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:44 am

Come on now, there are only so many feasible ways to design a commercial aircraft. What really is "copying" anyway? Using the same layout?

I remember reading that the KGB supposedly stole plans for the Concorde and passed them to Tupolev for the Tu-144; while I don't know if the story is true (perhaps someone could shed some light onto that), if it were then we could call that copying.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 5:10 am

Airxliban,

This story of spying about the Tu-144 is not imagination ! some people were charged for spying and got arrested (and engineer of Sud-Aviation was convinced of transmitting some Concorde plans and drawings to the Soviet) or were deported from France in the late 60's like the Aeroflot's N°2 representative in Paris... and we certainly don't know everything yet about this story...
This is not just mere conjecture !
 
OD720
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:10 am

All airliners nowadays look similar. Most have a fuselage, low wings and are powered by 2 or 4 underwing engines. So why people never make any similar "copy" remarks about these but when it comes to Soviet/Russian designs, all of a sudden become suspicious?

Why the IL86 or the IL96 should be compared and referred to the 707 but the A340 be immune to any comparison?
What about the military designs like the Tupolev bombers, some of the MiGs and the Mi and Kamov helicopters which don't resemble anything western?

Threads like these must be a real insult to Soviet and Russian engineers. But they probably consider us all roukies.

A note about spying. It was something that was being carried out by all parties and at so many levels. Airliners were probably not a priority to either side. Diplomats were expelled for a wide range of reasons.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:34 am

0D720,

YOU should take the time to read carefully all the posts above before posting yours statements...  Insane
 
sovietjet
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:40 am

I'm flattered my topic has started a discussion about soviet copies of western aircraft. If there's one topic I hate it's this...even the NWA DC-9 threads I hate less. Anyway...look at this VC-10 vs. IL-62 thread from a couple months ago.

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1348500/

I have written the many techical differences between the aircraft in my post.

There is only so many ways to put engines on an aircraft. Either under the wing or on the tail or a mix(DC-10, L1011) or in extreme cases...over the wing like that German plane. Also the An-72/74 has unique engine placement. The Tu-104 was directly developed from the Tu-16. The Tu-134 is a Tu-124 with engines in the rear. Aviation engineers tried to go with "what's cool". Everyone was doing tail mounted engines...why not the Soviets too? Also engine pylon technology before the Il-86 was very bad. Notice how no Soviet bomber had wing mounted engines let alone civil planes. Only the M-50 prototype had some wing mounted engines. Tu-144 did involve spying yes I admit that. The only real copies therefore were the Li-2 and Tu-4(DC-3 and B-29 respectively). Take the similar B-727 and Tu-154 and you'll see that besides engine layout everything else is different. Same with the rest of the planes that look alike. I bet the Dc-9 is more of a copy of the Caravelle than the Tu-134. Also what about the BAC-111? I think the only similarities therefore are engine layouts. Nothing else comes close. Also, the "copies" of some of those aircraft are still flying strong compared to their western counterparts. Tu-134s, Tu-154s, Il-62s, lots of those still flying. On the other hand the number of caravelles, Bac-111, VC-10, DC-9 flying for passenger revenue?? Except for the DC-9(damn you NWA  Smile/happy/getting dizzy) they are all gone. FLYSSC - I hope your doubts have been answered....at least you realized they are not pure copies like some stubborn people I have seen here on a.net that will always think the Tu-134 is a direct copy of the DC-9 no matter what you tell them.
 
BA
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:41 am

I watched an interesting program about the TU-144.

Many people accuse the Soviets of copying the Concorde, however an aircraft expert stated that there aren't many other known ways to develop a supersonic airliner, so you can't say that the Soviets copied the Concorde.

What he said sounds very reasonable in my opinion.

You cannot say the Soviets necessarily copied an aircraft simply because of its looks....

Especially when it comes to supersonic airliners. So far, the delta wing design has proven to be the best and most feasible.

Look at the Boeing 2707 and the Lockheed L-2000, they would have been similar also.

Regards
 
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keesje
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:25 pm

Tu 144 vs Concorde

Just look at :

- Size
- Location of the engines
- Shape of the wings / aerodynamics
- Materials use
- Fuel systems
- Cockpits

Those are totally different designs

nuf said ..



 
Russophile
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:52 pm

FLYSSC, the mere word "COPY", which you have admitted 'might' (I say it was) be the wrong word, insinuates that they did, and basically leaves a foul taste in my mouth.

Also comments on the Il-86 -- it is true that the Russians wanted the Il-86 to be an 'equivalent' to the A300 -- this does not mean that they wanted the Il-86 to look exactly like it. When you have an aircraft which is to be a twin-engined widebody, and is to hold a certain number of pax, there are only so many ways it can look.

But it might be of interest to you, that initial designs for the Il-86 didn't look like the A300 at all, but more like a DC-8/707



 
Motorhussy
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:13 pm

Russophile

I don't think anyone's aiming criticism at either you or mother Russia or deliberately trying to belittle the importance of the Russian and Ukrainian aviation effort. This thread is talking about an historical piece of aviation, when there was a cold war and spies and spying were de rigeur, when Russia was part of (and head-honcho in) both the Soviet Union and the former Warsaw Pact Bolshevik Empire.

This period is fascinating for many of us. Technology theft was the major currency for KGB plants in the West with Av Tech being just about the pinnacle in terms of potential global PR success (second only to the space race).

BTW, now that the Ilyushin Bureau has access to high bypass ratio engines, why don't they develop a two engined widebody based on the IL-96 fuselage?

MH
 
ben
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:44 pm

BTW, now that the Ilyushin Bureau has access to high bypass ratio engines, why don't they develop a two engined widebody based on the IL-96 fuselage?

There is no requirement and no money.... they have to concentrate on making a success of their current projects.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:19 pm

I´ve done a type course on the B757 and I´ve had the opportunity to have several close looks at an Tu-204. These planes look superficialy similar, but are completely different animals. In fact, the Tu-204 is technologicaly much more advanced than the B757. It has full fly by wire and a full glas cockpit. It is a bit bigger than the 757 as well. The Tu-204 still has a position for a flight engineer, but only due to some obsolete Russian certification issue, which stated that a plane thissize requires one, even though acc. to the crew there is no work for him in flight.
They also seemed to be quite happy with their Perm engines.

Jan
 
Wasilenko
Posts: 256
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RE: Soviet Copies Of Western Airliners

Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:55 pm

Everyone can spot Soviet Union's seconds but how about firsts....


Tu-124 was one of the first civil airplanes in the world to fly with turbofan engines, and was the first in its class.

Tu-134 was only the second civil airliner with engines in the rear and the horizontal tail right at the top of the fin. Tu-134 flew before DC-9, B727, Trident and F-28 all of which share the same horizontal tail / vertical tail configuration.

Yak-40 as everyone knows was the first regional jet, full stop.

Yak-42 was the first narrow body airplane to fly with high by pass engines.

Il-96 and Tu-204 were respectively 2nd and 3rd civil airliners in the world to fly with fly by wire control system.

As for engine configuration on Il-86 there is actually some information in a book written by a Boeing engineer called 'Widebody' from what I recall. There was actually some exchange of knowledge involved between Boeing and Ilyushin during late 60s Paris Air show. Boeing had trouble with titanium processes and manufacture while the Russians had difficulties designing pylons for Il-86 engines. This is why Il-86 was originally conceived with engines in the rear. Both parties got together in a Paris restaurant and exchanged knowledge.

In conclusion I just want to say that the more one studies Russian airplanes there more he/she will understand that they are all very different to western types and even though they might look similar there is always a good reason for it. The problem with understanding this is that some people just don't understand the scale of work required to design, manufacture and support an airplane. The amount of work that goes into to airplane design is huge. Believe me I'm an aeronautical engineer and I am proud that the country where I was born once had and still has a great aviation potential both civil and military. After all Russia is one of there nations (considering EU as one big nation) capable of manufacturing widebodys.

Denis

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