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mig21umd
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Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:48 pm

G'day all,

I have been wondering for a while what people think of Croatia Airlines size?
Are they being too careful? Looks like that at the beginning of the northern summer OU will operate a total of 12 aircraft
A320 x 4

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A319 x 5

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ATR42 x 3

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With Air Adriatic now operating 4 or 5 MD82's Dubrovnik airlines, if they kick off this year, hope to eventually operate up to 7 MD82's by 2007 and Trade air Croatia starting charter flights with two F100's. The proposed combined fleet of these newer Croatian operators may out number OU who have been around for fifteen years and doing well.

With predictions that Croatia will overtake the Czech Republic this year, in terms of number one tourist destination in Eastern Europe, you wonder why OU never expanded into these markets as aggressively as they seem they could of.

OU are making profit and that is a good argument to say they are doing the right thing but when you look at OU's regular flights you cant help to think they could be a little more experimental and try expand a little more rapidly. Its almost like they are being way too careful.

Also wouldn't mind people thoughts of OU going to Canada USA or even south America. Keep in mind that North and South America have a large Croatian population and with Croatian fast becoming a popular holiday destination, seasonal and low key all year round flights just might work???

Well, these are my thoughts, will appreciates any comments  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Oh and maybe even a kangaroovic route (Zagreb to syd/mel) using the um lets see, will let you all use your imagination for that one... Would like to hear.

Thanks.
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The_Greq
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:53 pm

I don't know really much of OU, but during my work as loadcontroller for OU I've experienced that 80% of the Zagreb-Amsterdam (and return) pax are interline pax. Almost everybody is transfering with KLM to JFK and DTW.

So especially for the summer I can suggest a 3-weekly flight ZAG-JFK.

The_Greq
 
CB777
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:39 am

Mig21UMD

I agree with you on OU being too small, You would think after 15 years of service, they would have atleast a couple of wide bodies. OU has great potential, and I dont know why they dont expand enough. The JFK-ZAG route would make a killing, they would have no competition and there is a huge croatian population in northern NJ and NYC. and now that they joined the Star Alliance I dont see them expanding much, everything will be via FRA on LH.


CB777
 
adriaticflight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:41 am

I agree that OU is too small. I think they should be at the forefront of making Croatia a great tourist desination.

I think OU should try and establish a Croatia Low cost carrier. They could fly from Stansted and maybe some German locations to Split/Zagreb/Dubrovnik. If they don't I can imgaine that the established LCC will pour into Croatia once they join the EU.

maybe even a kangaroovic route (Zagreb to syd/mel)

Bring back the good old days when you could fly from Yugoslavia to Australia! But this is never going to happen. Vienna is only a few hours on the train from Zagreb or a short flight. A direct flight wouldn't make money. I think the same is true for a flight: Zagreb - New York. I think people over estimate the fesability of that route. The only 'eastern' european airlines (Aeroflot/Olympic excluded) that fly to america are: LOT, CSA and Malev.

Prague - Huge tourist and business centre. CSA have a large route network

Budapest - Large city, 10million hungarians, tourism, Malev has a large route netwrok

Warsaw - Large domestic market, large Polish population in US.

Croatia Airlines doesn't have a large route network. Zagreb is quite a small city (700,000) and tourism is mainly on the coast.

Thats why i can't image any scheduled transatlantic flights. But maybe they could lease planes during the summer for charters...that could make money. If they were to do this i would like to see an A330 in Croatia colours....
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:37 pm

With predictions that Croatia will overtake the Czech Republic this year, in terms of number one tourist destination in Eastern Europe.

I'm glad Croatia finally reclaims its well-deserved place as No.1 tourist destination.

I'm not sure if presence of an expat community in country XY is a sufficient sole reason to launch a route. Unless, of course, we are talking about large expat communities of already huge nations such as Indians in the UK/US, Turks in Germany, Chinese in the US, etc.

As far as OU's size... I'd see the fact that they are making profit as more important than its size. And also how they will manage to cope with anticiapted "invasion" of LCCs.
Unfortunately any thoughts of long-haul expansion are, I think, rather unrealistic. I don't think LH+OS will let them do it. Ditto. for Adria.
 
9A-CRO
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:53 pm

actually transatlantic route could be profitable

otherwise Skyservice wouldn't resume Toronto service this summer

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9A-CRO
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:58 pm

and just to mention while I am here
there is a significant rise in cargo traffic this year
Il-76 have now migrated to Croatia and they can be seen at Pleso nearly every day and OSijek airport is finnaly getting some traffic
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jamman
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:37 pm

Back in the 80's I went on vacation to Croatia, landed at Pula and staied in Porec, i went on a 732 with Aviogenex from Manchester, I suppose thats where the aviation thing started for me. I don't remember much about the flight I just remember the airport being like a shack on the edge of the apron!

Still Croatia was a lovely picturesque country with towns and villages full of character, it would be great to go back there and I'm sure Croatia Airlines could capitalise on that and make a packet!

James.

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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:36 am

Croatia Airlines was, back in 1994, planning to start direct transatlantic service with their own DC-10. I was working at ZAG airport at that time, and I remember the printed OU flight schedule with ZAG-JFK route, marked with "subject to government approval"... and than the delivery of DC-10 was "...delayed one year...".
I think that this was a political decision at that time.

And than "Air Croatia" appeared, in cooperation with Northwest Airlines... they were planning some long ranges, with DC-10's, but they were closed down before the first flight in 1995.

I agree there is a big potential in ZAG-New York route, but if OU will have exclusivity on the whole regular aviation in Croatia, that will never happen (you're right, CB777).

The general manager of Zagreb Airport is still talking about "...soon to be opened direct service with USA....", and that is with Delta. Yeah, sure.

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TripleDelta
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:53 am

As well as the issues mentioned above, ZAG is not really equipped for regular widebody operations. The apron has only one widebody parking space (excluding the two cargo stands occupied by the 76s 9A-CRO mentioned) and during the tourist season, when many LCCs operate an increased number of flights to ZAG, the apron is full and you can hardly squeeze an ATR in there, let alone something transatlantic. The terminal building is rather small and probably wouldn't be physically able to accept that number of people - 5 medium aircraft and you have a crowd. Not to mention how would the support facilities cope with the increased flow.

Plans are to upgrade the facilities (the terminal building being very high on the list) to more modern tech. Some three months ago, the CAT IIIb ILS became operational, but this had priority because of the very frequent and thick fog ZAG gets during winter.

The only airport able to operate widebodies on a more-or-less regular basis would probably be DBV, though it too is constrained by the apron and terminal building size - not to mention its famous windshear.

As for other Croatian airports, PUY Approach will soon become a radar unit, so that should help in speeding up the traffic flow there.

[Edited 2005-02-22 21:56:48]

EDIT: many other coastal airports near tourist centers are small in size. SPU, for example, has a lot of traffic during the summer months - up to 250 operations per day - on an apron that can hold about 10 commercial aircraft squeezed tightly together. ZAD, on the other hand, is constrained by its use as a military airbase and military flight school (as well as Lufthansa's Intercockpit). The problem, part of which is responsible for the slow OU fleet growth, is that there is simply not enough space to accomodate all those aircraft.

[Edited 2005-02-22 22:01:54]
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bananaboy
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Jamman (reply 7):
Back in the 80's I went on vacation to Croatia, landed at Pula and staied in Porec, i went on a 732 with Aviogenex from Manchester, I suppose thats where the aviation thing started for me. I don't remember much about the flight I just remember the airport being like a shack on the edge of the apron!




Have a look at it now....
http://www.airport-pula.hr

Worked a season as a rep a couple of years ago.. used to hear all the time about the old "shack" airport.

Mark
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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:02 pm

TripleDelta:
Maybe ZAG is not equipped perfectly, but I have to remind you that airport IS partly upgraded and reequiped since 1980's, when it had quite nice widebody a/c operations: mainly JAT's DC-10's to JFK, ORD, PIT, YYZ, MEL/SYD, than Air Canada with B767, PanAm with A310, as the regular ones. Than, from time to time, Qantas 747's, I also remember Garuda 747 and DC-10, Jordanian L1011, ATA L1011, Lufthansa 744, Tower Air 747, Iran Air 747, ... if it was possible than, it is possible now.
And DBV... remember Air China 744 that blown away some runway?

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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:04 pm

CroFlight: it is technically possible to accommodate a widebody (I've seen some interesting examples on special flights myself), but back in the 80s there was less traffic overall than now. Last season, the overall number of a/c operations at ZAG surpassed the best prewar years and continues to grow by 10% each season. That's one of the reasons why ZAG got ATIS and *WORKING* Ground Control (that will get its own ground radar very soon, though that is more due to fog that severely limits operations). I've myself had the opportunity of seeing the apron nearly full in the winter low season alone. And throwing a regular widebody service into the mix - could be done but it would be an immense strain on airport services, not to mention that the flight schedule for that particular widebody would have to be tailored so it can arrive in the late evening or during night or any time of day when traffic is low and it can be accommodated with reasonable speed and convenience.

But, at least as I see it, the biggest problem is where to accommodate all those passengers of a widebody once it lands + "normal" passengers of regular medium a/c + the dramatic increase in LCC traffic. 300-something passengers crowding the terminal building... Big grin. Not to mention the fact that ZAG and the city of Zagreb are connected only by OU busses that do leave every 15 minutes, but imagine being the 330th passenger waiting for a 50 seat bus for 2 hours  Big thumbs up
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:13 pm

And regarding the DBV 744 incident - back in the 70s, an early-version 747 blew out all the side lights at a Paris Air Show. I guess its a regular thing then Big grin
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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:51 pm

Ok, TripleDelta, I have to agree with you.

But, common conclusion is that there is a market (that was, actually, the topic), somebody will have to do it, and ZAG desperately needs new terminal.

There's allways the same fight, what comes first: customers, or offer? Playing safe, and adjusting the service with the growing number is what both OU and airports are doing in Croatia. New terminal building would open so many doors for all...

Good (or bad?) example is Oslo Gardermoen airport: the potential number of users is approx. the same as in Zagreb, but airport is much bigger and will reach it's ideal functionality in the year 2049!

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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:47 pm

CroFlight: I agree, the market does indeed exist, especially to the Americas and Australia, that all have a substantial population of Croats - and if ZAG or PUY or DBV could support regular widebody traffic along with increased narrowbody, I'd bet you'd have an enviable load factor, especially during the tourist season. Remember from a year or two ago that Air Adriatic (I think) wanted to buy three 742s. Don't know why they didn't proceed with the purchase though.

I saw, way back in the late 90s, a picture of the proposed new terminal in an OU magazine. Looks petty nice and it's shaped like a V with an elongated base, with jetways. Apparently, this design is still actual, as I saw it in the morning paper some months back - though there's little mention of any concrete date for the upgrade. I'll try to find the mag and see if I can find any more details.

I must admit my lack of knowledge about Norwegian air traffic, but your Gardermoen example seems pretty good. Build a big airport and activate it parallel with traffic increase - though at the time it is fully active, it'll probably be surpassed technology and must have cost a lot in the first place... though it would enable a rapid increase in capacity with minimum hold-ups and costs.
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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:08 am

Yes... I saw that design for the terminal also... it was placed on the old website of ZAG airport, but it's not on the new one :-(

It is supposed to be placed on the other side, diagonaly opposite from the today's terminal. But, again, there's no hotels or garage or anything like that planned nearby, at least not in this plans. And these are the elements that make an airport attractive nowdays. Only nice thing is railway and tram connection to the city using the new bridge that is now under construction. And, to make it more interesting, the airport (terminal) will be just 7 km from the city (now 15). I can't find any similar example.

Air Adriatic, actually, claims that they never wanted to buy those 742's, and that the whole story was just a journalist' immagination. The main purpose would be to fly haj flights, and than some transatlantic charters. Those 742's were grounded in Sweden for tech reasons, and I think that we didn't need other people's garbage in Croatia  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:35 am

Okay, I found the magazine. It's a dark-blue hardcover issue, named simply "Zagreb Airport Ltd. 1962 - 1997", if you have come across it.

Keeping in mind that the mag is 8 years old, the airport company drew up and expansion plan comprised of 4 stages. The first stage, that would have been completed in 2002., would, ironically, be the building of the new terminal you mentioned above in the same location you mentioned. It would be in the deformed V shape and would have a capacity of 2 million passengers yearly, with a surface area of approximately 33,000 square meters. It would have two floors, the lower one for arrivals and the upper one for departures, where passengers would board their aircraft via jetways. Three widebody stands would be included, to complement the existing terminal and its 1 + 2 cargo widebody stands.

Included in the first phase would be the reallocation of the airforce to a new area, the construction of transport links as you mentioned and an upgrade of all movement areas and devices (at least this has been partly realized with the CAT IIIb, ATIS and ground control).

The second phase, between 2003. and 2010., would have further increased the terminal building area to 46,700 square meters, with a capacity increase to 3 million passengers yearly.

The first two phases would cost a total of 450 million DEM (1.6 billion HRK).

The last two phases don't have a defined development time, but would see an increase in capacity from 10 million in phase 3 to 20 million in phase 4.

The entire plan was conceived with the idea of making ZAG a regional hub and an important crossroad of airways for this part of Europe. The management believed (and rightly so) that the geographic position of ZAG would draw transport companies from Europe, Asia and the US, hence the need for modifications to the airport.

Ah well...  Yeah sure

Hmm, I knew I should have paid more attention to that 742 thing when it was happening... Big grin
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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:29 am

 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:31 am

CroFlight: yes, the same one I have. Looks nice and modern  Smile. Hope they build it finally, but probably with some alterations. Traffic is increasing faster then they expected and the program is behind schedule... we shall se what we shall see...
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flycro
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:52 am

With OU in Star alliance won't they just feed traffic into FRA, MUC and VIE? What wil they need transatlantic from ZAG?
 
Avianca
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:41 pm

OU is doing the correct way, without joining into a alliance they will disapear between the next 5 years. Croatia is too small for the European market, they will find there place in Star for the Balkan region....

regards
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dc863
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:56 pm

I flew Croatia from ZAG-BRU last March and the flight had thirty one pax on board. A flight leaving from an adjacent gate was going to FRA and was 100% full. In Nov. the Croatia flight from CDG-ZAG was 80% full, service was okay but not nearly as good as the Brussels run. The pilots on Croatia are very professional and the aircraft relatively brand new. I just wish JAT next door would get funding for some new aircraft to keep up.
 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:05 pm

Flycro: OU is not a full member of Star Alliance yet. Several years will pass before that happens. But currently, OU is doing something of the sorts you described in cooperation with LH - there are 5 daily direct flights to FRA and a few that go only on certain days. During the summer season, there will be up to 7 or 8 daily flights to FRA, though some will be routed through other Croatian airports. Add to that also the regular service to VIE in cooperation with VO (4 that go 6 days a week and 2 that go when these 4 don't), as well as to MUC (2 that go 6 days a week and 2 that go when the first 2 don't)...
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UN_B732
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:09 pm

I don't think that JatAirways has any interest in doing any long-haul out of Zagreb, if nothing else for political reasons.
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kl911
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:15 pm

If they don't I can imgaine that the established LCC will pour into Croatia once they join the EU.


They do already. Hapag Lloyd Express will fly the Cologne - Rijeka route this season.

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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:08 pm

And Germanwings flies somewhere out of Zagreb, don't remember where.

It looks like STR and CGN.

[Edited 2005-02-24 10:10:28]
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Flightlover
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:38 pm

A transatlantic route would definitely be very profitable because apart from the large croatian population who could use this route, there's also a large market for customers from the former Yugoslavia where OU has a well established network. I also think there's potential for OU to open a new route to Eastern Europe. There are a lot of tourists travelling to Croatia, especially in the summer time.
 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:03 pm

in times that the market will be consolidated into 3 or 4 big airlines in Europe, it would not´t really work for OU go intercontinental... for this kind of airlines it is much more better to have a conservative strategy to have a really future...
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:18 pm

Better to be small, then too big like some other airlines. Size does not matter its how you use your fleet. How many hours a day do there planes fly?
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:47 pm

Sunking737: on an average day, the average OU Airbus will make 2 - 4 return international flights, depending on their length (for example the ZAG - FRA - ZAG run is 3 times a day as far as I know) - usually around 6 - 8 hours per day on average. Maybe even more if a relief crew is available, but this happens rarely. Actually there are never more than 2 Buses at ZAG at any time, save for the morning rush hour when they all fly in one behind the other from their overnight stops (and leave again an hour or two later).
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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:57 pm

TripleDelta, and don't forget their charter operations...
Usually, charter flights are scheduled in the night time, which makes their buses very bussy...

The plan for 2005 was to take 2 320's extra, but they sticked with only one that comes in may. That was not because they can't have use of one more, but because they want to play safe game. My company is chartering aircrafts from OU for 2 yrs now, and we couldn't get a decent daytime flight because "it's only one airbus comming in 2005...".

Cowards  Big thumbs up

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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:02 am

I have been a regular customer of OU for the past six years or so. They maintain a fine small fleet, and have an excellent in-flight product. I am not sso concerned about OU starting trans-atlantic service; I don't think they need to, given their regional Star Alliance membership.

My problem with OU is that their service from non-Star hubs in the EU is spotty at best. Yes, they fly from LHR to ZAG everyday, but not at the same time every day. And not well suited to those making connections to/from Atlantic flights.

Also, OU need a better ticket-selling system in the U.S. Tickets on OU sold in the U.S. for EU travel average $400 return. Too damn expensive.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:38 am

as of LCCs

Germanwings will also add Berlin service from Zagreb starting at the end of March
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CB777
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:47 am

This is a little off topic but last summer there was a topic of CO doing a couple of charter flights to Croatia with the B777's, does anyone know if CO actually did these charter flights. If OU doesnt start any service to the US why cant any US airline do this service, like CO out of EWR and it would be profitable especially all the connectors. OU can just codeshare with a US airline.


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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:22 pm

CB777: you're right, there was talk of CO coming here, but in the end nothing came out of it (or came here of it to be correct Big grin).

I must admit that codesharing is beyond me, so I personally can't answer that. Though I'd bet that a big overseas company such as CO has much more important routes and flights to be concerned with than an irregular charter flight to Croatia, with one precious long range widebody at that... but that's just me  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:38 pm

Yea, nothing came out from CO charters last summer... this summer it's not announced.
The only (charter) transatlantic service from Croatia will be Skyservice B757 from Zagreb to Toronto via Dublin, and Skyservice A330 Split - Toronto directly.

I think that Croatia and US have an agreement of reciprocity (or something like that). That means that no american airline can fly to Croatia without Croatia Airlines flying to US.
But, I am sure that this can be solved trough codeshare, as CB777 says.

CroFlight
 
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:59 pm

TripleDelta, this may be an irregularity, but when I flew into ZAG January 5th I saw 3 Airbuses, if not 4. I was coming in on VIE-ZAG (A whopping 8 pax on our A319  Laugh out loud, probably because of the exorbitant O&D fare and not many connections) I was coming in on the morning VIE-ZAG. Maybe this is the early morning exodus, but the airport was empty.
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:20 pm

UN_B732: you could call it a bird migration Big grin. This usually occurs in the early morning hours, somewhere around 7-8 AM, but the time varies +/- an hour, depending on the season. By 9 AM the first flights leave and by noon almost all have left for their first run. There may be some ATRs left as well. Those that left at 9 and have short routes, may come back till noon, so you may see a couple of them regrouping... I was up in the tower on January 15th at around 11 AM and there were only 2, one which left half an hour later, and the other was just standing there (I think it left 2 hours later, though I'm not sure)...
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
JU101
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:51 am

One must recall that OU were posting financial losses consistently until only two years ago, which indicated that the airline was far from optimal, and further rapid expansion would have probably made things worse. Furthermore, the airline is plagued with more recent developments: the introduction of low-cost carriers to Slovenia have decreased demand on certain OU operations from Zagreb. Having said this, the tourist industry in Croatia has only recently been envisioning their pre-war achievements, and perhaps it is true, OU have been slow to take advantage of the market potential relative to their domestic competitors.

Now that OU is a regional member of the Star Alliance, they have essentially bound themselves to the feeder airline concept. This strategy ensures a greater degree of stability, but ultimately the margins of profit are smaller. It is inconceivable that OU could establish transatlantic flights since they would not be in the position to match the prices offered on current flight combinations to USA and Canada, especially after joining the Star Alliance. Having said this, one must not forget that OU has a large debt as a result of the Airbus purchases, and investing in lucrative transatlantic operations requires serious investment.
 
CroFlight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:26 pm

In the next few years we'll probably see more and more transatlantic charters to Croatia, and than something can turn into regular...

How about the other side? It's not just transatlantic that is interesting, croatian Ministry of traffic, airports and aviation authorities are constantly negotiating with different asian companies... there are still lots of rumours about Malaysia comming back with KUL flight (ZAG had 777 service that was "temporarly suspended" 2 years ago), or Emirates that wanted to fly DXB-ZAG together with OU?

CroFlight
 
mig21umd
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:56 pm

CroFlight & TripleDelta,

Hvala, for responding so well to my initial post. Its very difficult to find information on Croatian Aviation in Australia so it is all very much appreciated.

I personally believe that any carrier with the right marketing approach could develop into a strong and large carrier. OU, for example, could take advantage of the fact that it is only a small carrier at the moment and could build itself into larger operator offering services which reflect today's market needs. Maybe some of you don't believe me? Well if I told you in a forum 10 years ago that Emirates would become so successful and such a massive player in today's airline world you may not have believed me than?

For this to become a reality the Croatian gov must make the appropriate funding available to upgrade airports in Croatia, especial Split, Dubrovnik and to build the proposed terminal in Zagreb.

Further more the Cro gov needs to realise that Croatia's real money maker is going to be tourism and an awesome advertising campaign needs to be launched in the US and Australia which would include OU as the proposed carrier to Cro. I know of many Australians with no connection to Croatia who are planning holidays in Cro this year and when I ask how they decided on Cro for a holiday they respond by saying someone told me about how good it is. THAT'S JUST OF WORD OF MOUTH! Imagine the response a TV add campain would have with pictures! And again OU would have to be included in the add and represented as a carrier not just to Croatia but to Europe.

Now, for this to happen OU needs wide bodies, but before they can get the wide bodies they need the new terminals, but before they can get the new terminals they need money, but before they can get the money they need a stronger economy and more tourist, but before they can get more tourist they need money for the add's and investment into the larger equipment.
So unfortunately it seems to be a huge catch 22! Only because the Croatian gov for some reason allows it to be. Its doesn't have to be this may!!!

Why is Croatia as a holiday destination only finding its way to people by word of mouth and only as a summer destination when it also has so much winter holidaying potential?

I hope it doesn't seem like I went too fare off Aviation but tourism in Croatia and the amount of people OU would or could carry are very closely linked.

CroFlight..... If you click on 'about us' under Business Information than click History on the Zagreb airport website, at the bottom a picture of the proposed Zagreb terminal should come up.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

mig21umd
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
CB777
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:18 am

Mig21UMD

Your right about the no advertising about Croatia in other countries, and yes everything seems to be by word of mouth. When I started working for Continental Airlines, 8 years ago, nobody even knew what Croatia was. As I brought back pictures from visiting family there and telling my co-workers how beautiful Croatia was, some of my co-workers now have gone to Croatia and they are telling other people to go there. If there was some advertisment here in the U.S, Croatia would be more popular with Americans and Australians and any other country outside of europe.


CB777
 
adriaticflight
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:31 am

Your right about the no advertising about Croatia in other countries

Well actually the Croatian Tourism board is very active in promoting Croatia around Europe. In the UK, Germany, Holland, Hungary and Slovakia there have had large campaigns.

Maybe there has been less advertising in the USA and Australia but there are reasons why: Croatian tourism will depend on European tourists. The number of Australians than come to Europe just to see Croatia must be absolutely tiny.

Croatia Airlines should consolidate its position in Eastern and Central Europe, not attempt to fly across the Atlantic which would be nothing more than a prestige route, worthly of the Tudjman days. Croatia needs good tourism development not recklessness.

Now, for this to happen OU needs wide bodies

Who is going to pay and maintain widebody aircraft? The Croatian taxpayer. They wont be too happy with that I can tell you. The tourism development in Croatia is controversial, many people think that tourism is going to destroy their towns and beaches. I personally don’t want to see 777 loads of tourists coming to Croatia, I think the Croatian government broadly wants that too.

My prediction is no…long haul flights by OU ever!
 
flycro
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:33 am

Will OU expand at Zadar this year?
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:07 am

Flycro: OU already has flights to ZAD (from Zagreb), though they leave at 9 PM. They're regular every day except Saturday (ZAD is one of the "sleepover" locations for the AT42s I think)
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
JU101
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:59 am

I have to solute Adriaticflight.

Tourism is a nice way of collecting foreign currency, however, this is far from being a major contributor to the GDP of Croatia or Montenegro. In fact, I find the tourist industry is unreliable: if the EU economy would go through a recession, economies that are dependent on tourism would regress at a higher proportion.

Accelerating the tourist industry on our Adriatic beaches would not bring much benefit, as it would lead to a degradation of the environment. I favor a sustained growth, where the tourist industry brings qualitative benefits to the local population. Lets face it, large tourist expeditions from overseas are more likely to stay at the hotel owned by the foreign investor and fly with the foreign carrier; therefore, not bringing much benefit to locals.


Mig21UMD,

What coastal winter holiday potential are you talking about?
 
mig21umd
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:06 pm

JU101

Mig21UMD,

What coastal winter holiday potential are you talking about?

I was talking about skiing in Croatia.

Australians are (explores) by nature and have the tendencies of not revisiting the same holiday destinations but like to explore other places. Skiing in Croatia has huge potential but again this would require large amounts of money and investment to build hotel's to accommodate visitors.

As for tourism far being a major contributor to Croatia's GPD, I would like to remind you that before the break up of Yugo it was Yugoslavia's second largest money maker AND also look at Greece! Greece does not have any large export industry and has a population of only 10 million. Where did they get the money to pay for the Olympic games and pay for their military which consists of a very expensive and large airforce. This is just an example.

Croatia does seem over crowded with tourist already but this is only because the roads along the coast cant handle all the cars brought by European visitors and there is a very limited public transport system along the coast. I witnessed this first hand and im aware that new freeway's are being built.

Australian and North American visitors wont be bringing there cars with them.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
mig21umd
Topic Author
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RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:50 pm

Adriaticflight.

When Australians travel to Europe they tend to visit a number of European countries and Croatia is fast becoming one of the more popular places to visit. Its almost amazing how only two years ago I would get a weird stare by somebody if I suggested a visit to Croatia should be included in there European itinerary, to posters of Croatia regularly being seen in Australian travel agents today. Also im not getting weird stares anymore when I suggest a visit to Croatia.

Im not expecting the Croatian Tax payer to pay for your beloved A330 but a business is a business and a successful one will find new ways to appeal to people to use there product.

The UAE tax payer does not pay for Emirates large fleet, infact they do not pay tax at all! Still they are able to expand so rapidly making profits along the way. All this done with no financial help from the Dubai royal family. Apparently.

To suggest OU will never expand herself beyond Europe is just wrong. If it is done reasonalbly and with an excellent marketing campaign it would be successful.

If OU doesn't im sure some carrier soon will.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
 
JU101
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:57 am

RE: Croatia Airlines Too Small?

Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:02 am

Mig21UMD,

I am certain that tourism was not a major contributor to the GDP of the former Yugoslavia. Meanwhile, Zagreb estimates that the tourist industry contributed about 16,5 percent of the GDP in 2003.

As for skiing, do you have any specific locations in mind? If someone were to go skiing in the Balkans, other than Slovenia, the destinations that would come to mind would include: Jahorina, Romanija, Bjelasnica, Treskavica (BH), Zlatibor, Durmitor, Kopaonik (SCG), Sinaia, and Poiana Brasov (ROM). As for Greece, it is without a doubt that a good portion of the Olympics were financed from tourist revenues, however, the majority will eventually be paid by the Greek taxpayer. Tourism accounts for about 15 percent of the Greek economy.

Pozdrav

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