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flydc10
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767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:05 am

Hey

Was there ever a 767 that had a flight engineer and did not have a glass cockpit?


Regards
FlyDC10
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ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:07 am

I don't know about not having a glass cockpit, but I believe that they had 3 man crews on the 767's in Australia. I have an article about Ansett's 3 man 767's in a magazine somewhere, I'll look it up.

Cheers,
Patrick
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FMAL
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:07 am

767 and 757 came out with the glass cockpit from day 1.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:10 am

If anything it was a company stipulation for an additional crewmember.
 
avek00
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting FMAL (Reply 2):
767 and 757 came out with the glass cockpit from day 1.

Some of the early-build 767s featured 3-man cockpits.
Live life to the fullest.
 
gigneil
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:30 am

Ansett's 767-200s featured 3 man cockpits, if I'm not mistaken.

The first 767 most assuredly did not have the fully digital cockpit. It became a standard feature early on in production when Airbus offered the A300 and A310 with FFCC.

N
 
ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:34 am

My search for the magazine is gonna take me awhile because I have boxes of them.

Anyway, here is a pic I found from a Qantas 767, if you look to the right you can see part of the flight engineers station.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe Corrigan



Cheers,
Patrick
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A999
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:36 am

If I remember right Ansett had to include the flight engineer because of some union issues.
 
gigneil
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 6):
Anyway, here is a pic I found from a Qantas 767, if you look to the right you can see part of the flight engineers station.

That actually isn't one of the ones. That is the engineering panel, yes, but its digital it doesn't require an engineer.

N
 
FMAL
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:40 am

ACDC8

I'm pretty sure that the picture does not show a FE's station. I've flown on Varig's 767 and it had that exact same panel, and it was nothing but radio controls and stuff like that...the FO hooked me up on that panel so that I could listen to ATC. I sat down on the jump seat and just turned up or down the volume....
 
as739x
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:44 am

Some 767 flights have 3 crew due to flight time. AA has lots of tiffs with managment on the number of crew members on thier DFW-HNL flights. The issue was the flight time being right at 8 hours, which is the FAA max. I don't know what resolved the problem. I see the flight is blocked at 8 hr 13 min. Anyone have info on that? CO must have 3 man crew on EWR-HNL as would UA's 777 from ORD.

ASSFO
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gigneil
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:47 am

Lets be clear what we're talking about.

We're talking about a 3-station cockpit, not just having 3 crewmembers aboard.

N
 
ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8):
That actually isn't one of the ones. That is the engineering panel, yes, but its digital it doesn't require an engineer.

Looks like you're right on that one, I found 2 other shots that show the automated panel a bit better...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Manuel Javorik
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Werner



As I said these are the automated ones, not the ones where an actual flight engineer sat infront of.

Quoting A999 (Reply 7):
If I remember right Ansett had to include the flight engineer because of some union issues

that's the reason I remember being as well.

I've seen pictures of the Ansett 767's and the flight engineer panel was very sparse, but they did have a 3 man crew. I'm surprised there is no pic in the database.

Well, the search goes on...

Cheers,
Patrick
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FoxBravo
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:11 am

Yes, Ansett's 767-200s had 3-station cockpits. As far as I know, no other operators took this option.
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EMBQA
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:11 am

Yes.. but the aircraft where only ordered and flown by Ansett and only flown for a VERY short time before converting them to a two man cockpit. These where actually some of the first 767's to come off the assembley line. There was a good artical in 'Airliners' several years ago that talked about Ansett's 3 man 767's and the conversion over to a two man crew.
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avek00
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
Yes, Ansett's 767-200s had 3-station cockpits. As far as I know, no other operators took this option.

IIRC, either Delta or United did the exact same thing with its first couple -200s.
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flydc10
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:03 am

HEY

First of all thanx for answering my question, but why did Ansett order their 762 with a 3 man flight deck if this represented a big cost to the company, and also what other airline orderd their 762 with a 3 man flightdeck.

PS: were this 762 ER version or just the normal 762
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N1120A
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 15):
IIRC, either Delta or United did the exact same thing with its first couple -200s.

Well, given that DL's first 762 is still flying, I think they changed that rather quickly. The 767 was designed for 2 pilot operation

Quoting Flydc10 (Reply 16):
PS: were this 762 ER version or just the normal 762

They would be 762A's
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zeekiel
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:15 am

I happen to have the Ansett story that was written shortly after the company collapsed.

The initial five 767-200 aircraft were equipped with the flight engineer station at considerable cost. Union pressure forced Ansett to order the 3 man version. The real reason behind the pressure was that the new glass cockpit technology made the engineer unecessary and in late 1984 both Ansett and the other domestic Australian airline TAA had strikes by their engineers.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 15):
IIRC, either Delta or United did the exact same thing with its first couple -200s.

The book happens to mention that Ansett was the only airline in the world that took this option, but it could be mistaken.

A bit off the line, the book mentioned that Sir Peter Abeles of TNT (co-owner of Ansett) has mentioned in that time that flight engineers must be used on aircraft with more than 120 seats. Believe it or not, the union were pushing to have a 3 crew flight deck on the Airbus A320! I wonder what the engineer would have done, besides pushing at panels and playing jokes on the pilots.

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-04-19 01:24:41]
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ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 14):
There was a good artical in 'Airliners' several years ago that talked about Ansett's 3 man 767's and the conversion over to a two man crew.

That's the one! I'm still looking for it, I've got a couple more boxes to go through, but I'll have to finish my search later. Gotta get some stuff ready for my trip.

Quoting Flydc10 (Reply 16):
why did Ansett order their 762 with a 3 man flight deck if this represented a big cost to the company

If I'm not mistaken, it was a union issue. I'm still looking for the details.

Cheers,
Patrick
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
EMBQA
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:35 am

ACDC8-

It's all covered in that artical. I'd look, but I'm several hundred miles from home and stuck in a hotel.

Ansett was the ONLY airline to buy the 3 man 767, and even then took only 2 or 3 aircraft, which where converted within a year or so.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
citationjet
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:41 am

Here is a link to an earlier thread on the same subject:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/96529/
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dairbus
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:48 am

I remember the Airliners article about trhe Ansett flight engineer panel. IIRC, they basically took the overhead panel above the Capt. and F/O seats and placed it on the side panel which previous posts refer to as the automated panel.
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levg79
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
Ansett was the ONLY airline to buy the 3 man 767

I used to know a former Soviet pilot who told me a lot of things about aviation in the former Soviet Union. He was based in Tashkent and said that as soon as they got their 767s, they were converted to have a flight engineer. I don't remember him giving me an explanation about it. I would assume they felt awkward changing from a 5-pilot IL-62s and 4-pilot TU-154s to a 2-pilot airplanes. But that's just my guess, which probably doesn't make much sense. But the fact that they had a 3-crew 767s is true, which they probably still have.
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:32 am

A couple more pics:




Quoting Levg79 (Reply 23):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
Ansett was the ONLY airline to buy the 3 man 767

I used to know a former Soviet pilot who told me a lot of things about aviation in the former Soviet Union. He was based in Tashkent and said that as soon as they got their 767s, they were converted to have a flight engineer. I don't remember him giving me an explanation about it. I would assume they felt awkward changing from a 5-pilot IL-62s and 4-pilot TU-154s to a 2-pilot airplanes. But that's just my guess, which probably doesn't make much sense. But the fact that they had a 3-crew 767s is true, which they probably still have.

IIRC Russian regs required the F/E until legistlation caught up with reality.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
levg79
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 24):
IIRC Russian regs required the F/E until legistlation caught up with reality.

Is it still in practice or did they modernize their aircraft?
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:46 am

Starlionblue, you are my new hero!  Smile

I've been looking all over for my old Airliners magazines with the article on Ansett's 767s, but I haven't found it yet, but those are the photos I'm looking for!

Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!!!!  bigthumbsup 

Cheers,
Patrick
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 26):
Starlionblue, you are my new hero! Smile

I've been looking all over for my old Airliners magazines with the article on Ansett's 767s, but I haven't found it yet, but those are the photos I'm looking for!

Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!!!!

Eh... thx

If memory serves, I got those from someone on this forum a while ago. Could have been QantasA332

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 25):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 24):
IIRC Russian regs required the F/E until legistlation caught up with reality.

Is it still in practice or did they modernize their aircraft?

Since they also have 777s now I assume the regs were changed. What they did with the flight decks I have no idea.

[Edited 2005-04-19 05:00:15]
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MidnightMike
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:22 pm

As others have said, the 767 was always meant to be a "2" man cockpit. We used to train China Nothern on the MD90, & they had a F/E on the MD90's, no reason for it, but, the company elected to do so.
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levg79
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:29 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 27):
Since they also have 777s now I assume the regs were changed

Yeah, come to think of it, they also have 737s and Airbuses, both 310 and 320 families. I don't think they equipped all those with a F/E stations.

However, what happened to those 767s that were F/E equipped is still a mystery, unless someone can shade some light on the subject.
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Accidentally
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:38 pm

Indianapolis, IN
 
ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:46 pm

I give up in looking for the magazine. But here's something from the Boeing website, it may bring in a little insight...
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_fltdeck.html

Is there any chance that Ansett's 3 man 767's having gone to QF or NZ?

Cheers,
Patrick
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abbs380
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:54 pm

If the airplane was certified with a 2 man crew thats what counts. If some airline (or union) required 3 crew members thats a totally different issue. Most of these pics. show an observer seat with some switches and indicators next to them, these were used by maintenance personell, not flight crew. Just because a seat has communications access means nothing, thats required for check rides. The 757/767 were certified with 2 man crews, thats one thing that made them attractive to airlines. The 737 was certified as a 2 man airplane but in the early years United/s union pilots fought for 3 man crews, the extra guy was the most bored person on the planet while at work.
 
ACDC8
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:43 pm

Quoting Abbs380 (Reply 32):
The 737 was certified as a 2 man airplane but in the early years United/s union pilots fought for 3 man crews, the extra guy was the most bored person on the planet while at work.

So did Air France.
However, the 767 was originally designed with 3 different flight deck options. A permanent 3 man flight deck, a convertible flight deck, and the 2 man deck. At least according to the link I provided in my earlier post. Interesting article, I wouldn't have thought that Boeing would provide such an informative article on their history.

Cheers,
Patrick
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noelg
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:57 pm

I visited the flight deck in-flight on Air Canada 767-200 C-GAVC a few years back on the LHR-YYZ route.

I noticed there was a third station that was empty and asked the captain if we had a flight engineer on this flight. The captain told me that this aircraft originally had a flight engineer but that they'd had the 767s certified for 2-crew operation to save costs.

Cheers,
Noel.
 
greatansett
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:15 pm

Ansett was the only airline to have the 3-man 767-200.
Just to clear up a few things, Ansett's 767's remained in that conversion for almost 6 years until the 89 pilot strikes.

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pictues
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:22 pm

Even Air Canada's early B767-200's were originally built as 3 man crew but were converted to 2 man crews before delivery.
 
noelg
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:22 pm

Quoting Pictues (Reply 36):
Even Air Canada's early B767-200's were originally built as 3 man crew but were converted to 2 man crews before delivery.

That must be where the AC captain was coming from then - I believe C-GAVC is an early model.
 
chicoco
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:30 pm

GREAT ANSETT,
You are right. The only 767 Ansett had with a 2 crew cockpit was VH-BZF, and it was the only 763 Ansett had. Such a great loss.
 
manu
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:15 pm

This explains why the flight deck of the Canadian 767-300ER I was on about 6 years ago had such a huge flight deck compared to the A320, BAE 146 and 737-200 I've been on. Has any airline shortened the flight deck to get more galley space, bathrooms etc?
 
777ER
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:04 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 31):
Is there any chance that Ansett's 3 man 767's having gone to QF or NZ?

The only one that went to NZ was the B762 that NZ had leased to AN. QF got 767-33AER, serial number: 28495, MSN number: 643

Quoting Chicoco (Reply 38):
and it was the only 763 Ansett had

AN had 4 B763s
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:08 pm

Quoting Manu (Reply 39):
This explains why the flight deck of the Canadian 767-300ER I was on about 6 years ago had such a huge flight deck compared to the A320, BAE 146 and 737-200 I've been on. Has any airline shortened the flight deck to get more galley space, bathrooms etc?

Well, the 767 flight deck is a bit larger anyway.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
C133
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:24 pm

As I remember, the 767 was designed with a flight engineer position. When the design process was well along the industry standard moved to a two seat concept. Very early 767s were built with a FE panel, and the cockpit was re-designed to a 2 seat standard and incorporated into the assembly line as soon as possible.

American's first three airplanes came out the door with a flight engineer panel and immediately went into a mod program (before delivery) to remove it. The airline never operated them with 3 crew stations, but those three airplanes were always slightly different. Other airlines--don't know, but I imagine were similar.
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jdaniel001
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:33 pm

Stupid question here...how expensive is the mod? and did the plane have to recertified with a 2-man cockpit?
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bmacleod
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:34 pm

The jumpseat counts as a third seat, right? I mean there are times on occasion when an engineer or extra pilot comes along for the ride....
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ozguy
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:02 pm

This may be a little off topic but I've read from on a few different occasions that Qantas cadets often find themselves playing the role of second Officer when they make it out of training/have enough hours. With no need for a third pilot and having a digital panel that they don't need to operate what does the second Officer do on these flights? Is it just time to get a feel for the flight deck environment?

AS739X said it could be a flight time thing, but if it is a shorter flight that isn't just a positioning leg where the flight crew will fly the next leg, does cantos or anyone else still have a second Officer on board?

Cheers,
OzGuy

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brucek
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:11 am

I was living in Australia at the time.

The purchase of the B762's for Ansett was a major departure from the prior Two Airline Policy (TAP) that had previously required that both airlines (Ansett which was private and TAA- later Australian- which was a government corporation) have the exact same equipment, the same routes, they even had parallel flights at the same times!

This was a union issue, although I'm unsure as to how long they lasted. The new wide-bodies purchased by TAA/Australian were A300-B's, which required by design an FE station; so it didn't take the pilots' unions long to make that same requirement for the B76.

Bruce.
 
dc10tim
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:32 am

What became of Ansett's 762's after they went bankrupt?

Tim.
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flydc10
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:58 am

HEY

Thanks for answering my question, but what is the exact function of a flight engineer and what was the range of Ansetts 762.

Regards

Flydc10
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zeekiel
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RE: 767 With 3 Man Cockpit

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting OzGuy (Reply 45):
This may be a little off topic but I've read from on a few different occasions that Qantas cadets often find themselves playing the role of second Officer when they make it out of training/have enough hours.

Second Officer at Qantas pretty much means a relief pilot and an observer. It just means they get experience observing real life operations and flying to relieve or assist the Captain and First Officer. For example, on a Qantas 744 SYD-LAX there are four crew (last time I checked). Captain, First Officer and two Second Officers. Long hauls of course have Second Officers, but on some short haul routes you may spot a Second Officer.

Cheers

Zeekiel
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