So does anyone know how many people were on board? It feeds the debate whether a 744 can get to NRT non stop from SAN with a profitable load.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 11): So this one could very well be for the Korean team and we can expect another one in a couple of days? I like it.

Yes, this JAL 744 was a charter for the Korean team. Word is, another JAL 744 is due on Tuesday for the Japanese team.

I just got home from work. I missed the landing because I was busy working in a bin, but I checked it out at the gate and then stuck around after my shift to see her take off. It was awesome! Got some pics. Hopefully they get through the queue...

Quoting ERAU pilot (Reply 16): So does anyone know how many people were on board? It feeds the debate whether a 744 can get to NRT non stop from SAN with a profitable load.

It won't feed any such debate, the flight was less than 50% full and had NO cargo whatsoever.

This thread is a continuation of thread started last week -- here is the link
RE: Interesting Charters Into SAN Today (3/14) (by Nicksair Mar 17 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2663249

The next JAL charter will arrive on Tuesday.

Quoting Aircop (Reply 3): Will the 747 be able to fly to Japan non-stop from SAN? As I recalled BA's 747 stopped in either LAX or PHX prior to the long haul to London.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4): No, even only half filled it would need a tech stop somewhere.

If a 744 can fly LAX-ICN with full loads and Cargo, why not SAN-NRT?

LAX-ICN 5209nm
SAN-NRT 4829nm
LAX-NRT 4737nm

I guess that 95nm extra is really a killer for the 744 eh?

Yes I know the winds going north are not fun and in the winter there is a strong headwind. But still...95nm difference.

Maybe the BA flights from PHX and SAN stopped at LAX to pick up passengers. What is the use of flying 95nm for a "tech stop"?

By this it means that CO can't fly EWR-HKG (7009nm) with a 777 year round (limitations).
But more importantly...If JL needs a tech-stop for SAN-NRT, NW and UA cannot fly ORD/MSP/DTW-NRT at 5452nm/5170nm/5559nm year round with 744s. And AA could NEVER do DFW-NRT (5585nm )x2 daily with a 777. Forget ATL-NRT (5953nm) daily on DL using a 777.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 19): If a 744 can fly LAX-ICN with full loads and Cargo, why not SAN-NRT?

SAN's shorter runway. It's not long enough to allow a 747 to depart with enough fuel to carry a profitable payload on a transcontinental flight. The 777 is able to get off a shorter runway with a heavy load than the 747, and thus was able to perform SAN-LGW nonstop while the 747 cannot. Today's JAL flight can do nonstop SAN-NRT because as DCAYOW noted, it was rather lightly loaded.

I am having a difficult time imagining the Korean baseball team going back to Korea on a JL plane. Did KE or OZ not have a 777/744 available? Even KE's A332 or OZ's 763 can do it too.
It would be really funny if the Korean baseball team takes out its anger on the JL plane and trashes up the interior.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 21): funny if the Korean baseball team takes out its anger on the JL plane and trashes up the interior

I think this is quite likely knowing how agressive people can get when it comes to baseball.

No idea why KE won't fly the Korean charter. Why JAL?

Does anyone have the regs

Quote: I think this is quite likely knowing how agressive people can get when it comes to baseball.

Actually, the crowds at Saturday's game at Petco Park were extraordinarily respectful and polite to both the each other and their host country. Only problem was with smokers, as Petco Park is completely smoke free on the whole grounds.

Good group!! Come back anytime   

does any one have any pics???
magoonis aka Mark

I have plenty of pics. I uploaded one so far...

Wish me luck!



[Edited 2006-03-20 06:11:06]

Quoting Centrair (Reply 19): I guess that 95nm extra is really a killer for the 744 eh?

No more like a 350 ft. hill approximately 1 mile from end of the runway.

Wow - great to see that bird in SAN! Some of the other local spotters got good photos of it on approach and will be uploading them to a.net. Did any of you get photos of the other charters that have come in over the last few days? (Allegiant, TACA, Midwest, Miami Air, etc.)

I was able to get the two Allegiant aircraft that were in Friday morning. I was also there early enough to get the Kitty Hawk 737 arriving. 

Top of the 9th and is a great game with Japan leading by one, make that two. If they can hold on, should be a party flight back to Tokyo. Does anyone have the flight info for the JAL coming in tomorrow? I am on vacation in San Diego and might sneak over for my first a.net picture. Who is flying the Cuba team to Havana?

Looks like Taca is coming in tomorrow at 6:02AM from Havana to pick up the Cubans. Guess they didn't want waste any time before leaving town...

Quoting Centrair (Reply 19): If a 744 can fly LAX-ICN with full loads and Cargo, why not SAN-NRT?

SAN's runway is not only only 9600 feet long, it takes off straight into Point Loma. It basically turns the runway into no more than 8000 feet.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 25): I have plenty of pics. I uploaded one so far... Wish me luck!

With a great shot like that, you don't need luck

Quoting Centrair (Reply 19): If a 744 can fly LAX-ICN with full loads and Cargo, why not SAN-NRT?

Please open the below link and you will see what the 747-400 was heading towards prior to rotation...

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006...ws/top_stories/22_17_483_11_06.txt

Here she comes again....

Airline Japan Airlines
Flight Number 8805
Departure City (Airport) Los Angeles, CA (LAX)
Departure Time 03/21/2006 11:57 AM
Arrival City (Airport) San Diego, CA (SAN)
Arrival Time 03/21/2006 12:22 PM
Remaining Flight Time 00:25 (planned)
Aircraft Type Boeing 747-400
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Planned

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 32): Please open the below link and you will see what the 747-400 was heading towards prior to rotation...

That definitely puts it in perspective.

So, are the aircraft limited more by the runway length or by the terrain or both? What about on the other end (departing 09)? Is this ever done? Occationally, aircraft approach LAX over the ocean and land on the 6/7s.

Quoting Mason (Reply 35): What about on the other end (departing 09)? Is this ever done?

There are also terrain issues on the east end.....as well as a very controversial 6-odd story parking garage that was built just off the end of the runway. That's why the 27 approach end of the runway is displaced as far down the runway as it is.

View Large View Medium

Photo © Craig Mills


Tom at MSY

The JAL 744 is back. It is going from SAN to Tokyo Narita. It leaves about 2:50pm on Tues and the Flight number is JAL 8805. So anybody near SAN, check it out. Wonder how much rwy it will use! Shall be cool!

PHX was not a tech stop for the 747 400. They did pick up pax there and they still have the London to PHX flight.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 19): If a 744 can fly LAX-ICN with full loads and Cargo, why not SAN-NRT?

You lose roughly 955' for a 747-400 based on the climb gradient and accelerate stop distance available. The smaller the aircraft, the better the climb performance, the less the penalty.

Quoting Mason (Reply 35): So, are the aircraft limited more by the runway length or by the terrain or both?

Both. Terrain takes away runway length based on climb performance. The 9,400' length isn't enough for full range with a full load to begin with for a 747. Almost every aircraft over 150 seats takes some sort of penalty at SAN anywhere from 800 to 1,000', headed East... you lose between 2,000' and 3,000' of runway depending on aircraft performance - this affects range for 737-800s and Airbus 320's and larger.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 36): That's why the 27 approach end of the runway is displaced as far down the runway as it is.

Actually, it's displaced because of trees and a building in Balboa Park. 27 has a 20:1 approach surface vs. a 34:1 surface - one of the airports major downfalls when the weather takes a dumper - this raises the minima, runway 9 has a 34:1 with noted obstructions. For a precision ILS with a standard 3 degree glideslop, the 34:1 has to be clear at both ends. There is a new 62.5:1 precision departure surface going into effect in 2008 for commercial airports. It will be interesting to see what this does to SAN, right penalties are based on a 40:1 surface. The parking lot was built long after the displacement, and up to the height limit already established. If you look at the PAPI in the picture, you'll see the photo was taken in line with the the approach slope and the building is offset. The minima are also raised at both approach ends due to rising terrain and aircraft clean up and climb requirements. This is also why visibility is 1 mile vs. 1/2 mile for 9 even though the airport has touchdown and centerline lights. The addition of those runway lights brings down the decision height minima by about 50', without them, SAN couldn't have a precision approach to any minimum. SAN has all but the approach lights for CAT II, even used to have an ALSF-1 to runway 9 in the 70's. Its visual "lighting credit" to offset the what would otherwise be VFR minimums.

For SAN to get an ILS vs. localizer into 27 with a 200 foot decision height, the threshold would have to shift about 3,000 to the west leaving 4,600 landing.

Quoting Vapar8 (Reply 38): PHX was not a tech stop for the 747 400. They did pick up pax there and they still have the London to PHX flight.

The 747-400 can reach Iceland from SAN, a bit shor of europe. PHX was the stop selected for the leg.

[Edited 2006-03-22 02:52:19]

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 21): I am having a difficult time imagining the Korean baseball team going back to Korea on a JL plane. Did KE or OZ not have a 777/744 available? Even KE's A332 or OZ's 763 can do it too. It would be really funny if the Korean baseball team takes out its anger on the JL plane and trashes up the interior.

WBC prepared and paid all charters, maybe JL bidded cheapest. After Asian preliminary match at Japan, Korean team left Narita to US on JL, too. Coath and manager were offered first class and all players took business class.

JL 8805, the Japanese baseball charter back to Japan returned via LAX. ETA @NRT is 1915.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 40):

Thanks for the info. JL has extra 747s because of the recent cut back in service I suppose. Since they were only going to sit in NRT, why not do some legs to the US & Korea.

what airline did the cuban team get around on? Who flew them back to HAV, anyone know?

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 41): JL 8805, the Japanese baseball charter back to Japan returned via LAX. ETA @NRT is 1915.

FlightAware shows it doing SAN-NRT nonstop, as they did with the Korean team. It flew into SAN from LAX:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL8805

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 42): what airline did the cuban team get around on? Who flew them back to HAV, anyone know?

They flew SAN-HAV on a TACA A320:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/TAI8203

There must be a huge crowd awaiting Team Japan when it arrives in NRT. Unlike, in the US where there are some FBO's capable of handling int'l flights; the celebrities have to go through common immigrations/customs facilities.

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 43):

You are correct, it is a SAN-NRT non-stop. The flight originated in LAX.
I misinterpreted the NRT arrival board.