The Caravelle Ever Used For Transatlantic Flight?

LuvAIr · Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:42 pm

Being a short/medium range aircraft, was the Sud Aviation Caravelle ever used for transatlantic crossings (with refueling in Iceland)?

breiz · Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting LuvAir (Thread starter):
transatlantic crossings

If you mean just that, then yes for demonstration and delivery purposes, the Caravelle did crossed the Atlantic Ocean.
If you mean commercial crossing, the answer is no.

LuvAIr · Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:56 pm

I thought of the possibility of scheduled commercial passenger flights.
Wikipedia told me that the range was 2900km (Caravelle 10R) so I thought it might have been possible...

mainMAN · Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:58 pm

Not many Caravelles flew in North America. United had some, and if you search the photo database, there are a couple of pics of Atlanta Skylarks.

A342 · Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 2):

Back then, there was no ETOPS. On top of that, it wouldn't have been economical.

breiz · Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 2):
I thought of the possibility of scheduled commercial passenger flights.

To my knowledge, Caravelle was never used on commercial services across the North or South Atlantic, although Caravelle was used both in the US and in South America.
The Caravelle assigned to the GLAM (President and ministers transportation) did cross the Atlantic, but that was not commercial flights

MEA-707 · Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:09 pm

Sterling used their Caravelles regularly on flights to the US in the early 1970s, with stops in Iceland and/or around Gander.
Probably charters to Florida and so on.

SR100 · Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:16 pm

Sterling's first transatlantic flight took place on 23 June 1970, from Copenhagen to Omaha, Nebraska, with fuel stops at Keflavik and Gander. The flight was operated with a Caravelle 10 B3, fitted with centre section fuel tanks and JT8D-9s.

In December 1970, Sterling set a stage-length record for the Caravelle when it flew 99 passengers from Oslo to Gander, a distance of 2,268nm (4,200km), in 5 h 33min. This was the first non-stop across the Atlantic in a commercial service.

50 transatlantic charter flights were operated in 1971. Keflavik was the usual stop on these transatlantic flights, were passengers had a meal while the aircraft was being refueled.

Sterling's route map of 1972 shows the following North American destinations: Chicago, Toronto and Hartford, along with Sondrestromfjord, all being served through Keflavik.

Source: The Complete Story of the Caravelle by John Wegg, published by Airways International, Inc

LawnDart · Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:22 am

Just a little trivia, and no it's not really transatlantic, but Air France served MIA and possibly JFK from the French Caribbean with Caravelles...

Viscount724 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting SR100 (Reply 7):
Sterling's first transatlantic flight took place on 23 June 1970, from Copenhagen to Omaha, Nebraska, with fuel stops at Keflavik and Gander. The flight was operated with a Caravelle 10 B3, fitted with centre section fuel tanks and JT8D-9s.

Sterling was also one of the very few carriers to operate the B727 on transatlantic routes.

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 3):
Not many Caravelles flew in North America. United had some

UA had 20 Caravelles, the only North American customer. All delivered 1961-62 and retired 1970-72. Interestingly, they were named for cities in France and the name was in French. UA Caravelles below and C/N, delivery/retirement dates and names.

N1001U 86/74 05/61 02/71 VILLE DE TOULOUSE
N1002U 87/76 06/61 05/70 VILLE DE CAHORS
N1003U 88/79 07/61 11/71 VILLE DE MARSEILLE
N1004U 89/80 07/61 12/71 VILLE DE PARIS
N1005U 90/84 08/61 01/72 VILLE DE GRENOBLE
N1006U 91/85 08/61 02/72 VILLE DE SAINTES
N1007U 92/86 08/61 05/70 VILLE DE COUNTENCES
N1008U 93/88 09/61 03/72 VILLE DE ROCHEFORT
N1009U 94/89 10/61 03/72 VILLE DE ROUEN
N1010U 95/91 10/61 01/72 VILLE DE STRASBOURG
N1011U 96/92 10/61 10/71 VILLE DE DIJON
N1012U 97/93 11/61 03/71 VILLE DE LILLE
N1013U 98/94 11/61 01/72 VILLE DE ARLES
N1014U 99/95 11/61 12/71 VILLE DE NICE
N1015U 100/96 12/61 12/70 VILLE DE SAINT-NAZAIRE
N1016U 101/97 12/61 01/72 VILLE DE NANTES
N1017U 102/98 12/61 12/70 VILLE DE CANNES
N1018U 103/99 01/62 01/72 VILLE DE BORDEAUX
N1019U 104/100 01/62 03/72 VILLE DE LYON
N1020U 114/103 02/62 03/72 VILLE DE CALAIS

LuvAIr · Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:57 am

That's interesting stuff and a great read. Thanks a lot everybody!

Quoting A342 (Reply 4):
Back then, there was no ETOPS.

It's my understanding that ETOPS start when twins are more than 60 minutes away from a suitable airport they could divert to. So did the Caravelle get ETOPS or some comparable certification at some point when Sterling operated them on a regular basis across the Atlantic?

A342 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 10):
It's my understanding that ETOPS start when twins are more than 60 minutes away from a suitable airport they could divert to. So did the Caravelle get ETOPS or some comparable certification at some point when Sterling operated them on a regular basis across the Atlantic?

I don't know how they operated it, to my knowledge, there was no such certification. But on the other hand, maybe they simply didn't care ! At least, it seems it hasn't caused an outcry like 12 years later when the 767 and A310 flew across the Atlantic as twins !

Have a look at this website: http://gc.kls2.com . Play around with different routings and the ETOPS 60 setting and you can draw your own conclusions.

N770WD · Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 11):
I don't know how they operated it, to my knowledge, there was no such certification. But on the other hand, maybe they simply didn't care ! At least, it seems it hasn't caused an outcry like 12 years later when the 767 and A310 flew across the Atlantic as twins !

You don't need ETOPS 120 today if you refuel at KEF. You're already north enough to stay within 60 minutes of alternates.

CV990 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:04 am

Hi!

If there was an airline that would fly literally around the world with their Caravelles Sterling was the one!!! North America, Middle East, Far East...those guys streched the capabilities of the Caravelle all over!
regards

A342 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting N770WD (Reply 12):
You don't need ETOPS 120 today if you refuel at KEF. You're already north enough to stay within 60 minutes of alternates.

Apparently a direct OSL-YQX flight was also made, and that one was clearly outside the ETOPS 60 limit.

And, assuming no detour is made, KEF-YQX is also out of the 60 minutes limit.

Scooter01 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Sterling was also one of the very few carriers to operate the B727 on transatlantic routes.

So did Wardair -I remember seeing their CF-FUN in Oslo quite a few times in the late 60es
(I remember the reg because I thought it was kind of funny) Big grin

Scooter

teixeim · Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:57 am

I seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time in the 60s. It was a multi-stop route for sure. Perhaps someone else can confirm - a quick web search did not confirm my memory.

timz · Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Apparently a direct OSL-YQX flight was also made, and that one was clearly outside the ETOPS 60 limit.

Depends what the allowed alternates are.

Quoting Teixeim (Reply 16):
seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time

Started in 1959, before they got their 707-420.

Tristarsteve · Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting LuvAir (Reply 10):
It's my understanding that ETOPS start when twins are more than 60 minutes away from a suitable airport they could divert to. So did the Caravelle get ETOPS or some comparable certification at some point when Sterling operated them on a regular basis across the Atlantic?

I used to depart TWA B767 from ARN to JFK. Usually ETOPS, but about once a month we had occasion to depart them non-ETOPS due to some MEL restriction. The increased flight time to keep in the 60 min rule was about 15mins. It was usually not worth delaying the aircraft to repair it and get it ETOPS. It was cheaper to depart it on time non-ETOPS.
I assume that Sterling used the same routes.
The normal route from ARN to JFK is overhead Iceland and Greenland anyway.

797charter · Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 13):
those guys streched the capabilities of the Caravelle all over!

Thats right, - and even more than most people know.
They even discussed a "double-decked" version with passengers sitting one-by-one in part of the luggage compartment, flying from Scandinavia to Spain/Mallorca. Entrance by the airstairs in the tail. But due to some issues with security never in production!

Viscount724 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
Quoting Teixeim (Reply 16):
seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time

Started in 1959, before they got their 707-420.

Panair do Brasil, the other major carrier in Brazil until it was shut down by the government in 1965, also operated the Caravelle. Pan Am owned 30% of Panair do Brasil (thus their name) until 1961 when it was taken over by the government. At one time, it was the largest airline in South America. They were the Brazilian flag carrier to Europe until their shutdown in 1965, when their Europe routes were transferred to Varig.

Interesting article below from TIME magazine archives below describing Panair do Brasil's shutdown and the airline situation in Brazil in 1965.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...171,833492,00.html?promoid=googlep

The tail of a Panair do Brasil Caravelle is visible to the left of the RG Caravelle in the following photo, as is one of their DC-8-33s in the background.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © A V Pettit

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Sterling was also one of the very few carriers to operate the B727 on transatlantic routes.

So did Wardair -I remember seeing their CF-FUN in Oslo quite a few times in the late 60es
(I remember the reg because I thought it was kind of funny)

Yes, I'm sure Wardair was the first operator of the 727 on Atlantic routes, with a fuel stop in Iceland or Greenland. I grew up in Edmonton which was Wardair's headquarters (and birthplace of their founder,Max Ward, who still lives there at age 85). I watched the delivery ceremony of CF-FUN from the observation deck of the downtown Edmonton Municipal Airport (YXD, now called City Centre Airport) in April 1966. It was both Wardair's first jet and the first Boeing jet sold in Canada.

Coincidentally, relevant to discussion of RG's Caravelles above, CF-FUN was later operated for many years by RG's domestic subsidiary,Cruzeiro do Sul, after a period with Braniff.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dave Jones

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Varndell

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vito Cedrini

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jose Luiz Junior

Scooter01 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Yes, I'm sure Wardair was the first operator of the 727 on Atlantic routes, with a fuel stop in Iceland or Greenland. I grew up in Edmonton which was Wardair's headquarters (and birthplace of their founder,Max Ward, who still lives there at age 85). I watched the delivery ceremony of CF-FUN from the observation deck of the downtown Edmonton Municipal Airport (YXD, now called City Centre Airport) in April 1966. It was both Wardair's first jet and the first Boeing jet sold in Canada.

Coincidentally, relevant to discussion of RG's Caravelles above, CF-FUN was later operated for many years by RG's domestic subsidiary,Cruzeiro do Sul, after a period with Braniff.

THAT was interresting information, -thanx!
I have some B/W pics of it in a shoebox somewhere from my days of sneaking out on the tarmac with my old Yashica Minister old

It was always something special to see birds from faraway places in Oslo.

Thanx again
Scooter

philb · Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:34 am

The Wardair 727 used to regularly fly from Gatwick and Manchester to Canada with the standard fuel stop being in Sondre Stromfjord. Keflavik would be used if Stromfjord was marginal as it sometimes was in late Spring and early autumn.

In the summers of 1968/9 Trans International used 727s from the US to Gatwick and Manchester on a regular charter flight programme and American Flyers B727s were also frequent performers during the same period.

Whilst the Sterling Caravelles and the odd French Air Force flight carried passengers across the Atlantic can anyone confirm that SAS used to operate their Caravelles transatlantic - at least as far as Greenland on their Copenhagen to Sondre Stromfjord route? I'm fairly confident they did so in the 1960s but can't find a reference. I'm prompted to ask because they are returning to the Copenhagen - Sondre Stromfjord route this summer, after a five year break, with a modern equivalent - the A319.

.

Viscount724 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 22):
can anyone confirm that SAS used to operate their Caravelles transatlantic - at least as far as Greenland on their Copenhagen to Sondre Stromfjord route? I'm fairly confident they did so in the 1960s but can't find a reference. I'm prompted to ask because they are returning to the Copenhagen - Sondre Stromfjord route this summer, after a five year break, with a modern equivalent - the A319.

As I recall, SK used the DC-8 on the CPH-SFJ route (SFJ now known as Kangerlussuaq) and then the 767 before suspending service a few years ago. I'm not certain but I doubt their Caravelles ever operated to SFJ. I am fairly sure their early-model Caravelles would not have had adequate range, especially considering the often extreme weather conditions in Greenland and alternate airports being as much as 800 miles from SFJ, and also prone to similar weather conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if SK DC-8s and 767s on the CPH-SFJ route often carried enough fuel to permit a diversion back to CPH when necessary. A Caravelle certainly couldn't do that.

[Edited 2007-02-18 02:52:32]

clipperno1 · Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Apparently a direct OSL-YQX flight was also made, and that one was clearly outside the ETOPS 60 limit.

Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
Depends what the allowed alternates are.

I guess that Narsarsuaq, Greenland could've handled a Caravelle. It still a prefered stop-over for Lears ferrying across the Atlantic.

philb · Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
As I recall, SK used the DC-8 on the CPH-SFJ route (SFJ now known as Kangerlussuaq) and then the 767 before suspending service a few years ago. I'm not certain but I doubt their Caravelles ever operated to SFJ. I am fairly sure their early-model Caravelles would not have had adequate range, especially considering the often extreme weather conditions in Greenland and alternate airports being as much as 800 miles from SFJ, and also prone to similar weather conditions.

Thanks Viscount 724. I raised the point because, in 1960, my father flew to Stockholm on a SAS Caravelle from Heathrow.. He brought home a SAS publicity brochure about the Caravelle which I had for many years until it was lost in a house move. It showed points served by Caravelles and Sondre Stromfjord was shown on the map. At the time (I was 13) I accepted the map as is and this thread reminded me of the map and I got to wondering if the destination was planned for, ever happened, or was it an error on the map?

The DC8s were certainly used before the 767 (the route was suspended in 2002) and you are right about the Caravelle 1's range but the Caravelle 3 had a range of 1,700 miles at MTOW

As the service stopped at Keflavik (1,337 miles from Copenhagen and Sondre Stromfjord was 827 miles from Keflavik) in theory the flight would be possible - at least from Keflavik. Narsarsuaq at 436 miles from Stromfjord would have been the neareest alternate (or was the runway shorter than the current 6,000 ft in the early 1960s?) and Thule is 759 miles - obviously not ideal.

What is surprising is that the Copenhagen - Keflavik at 1,337 miles sector would have been the killer at MTOW. In those days only two alternatives, apart from Reykjavik which can share Keflavik's weather, existed - Aberdeen and Macrahanish 833 and 832 miles from Keflavik respectively.

This begs the question of how restricted the A319 operation, which starts in May, will be. Whilst the aircraft at a restricted weight will have plenty of "legs" and could do the trip in one hop, plus a return to Keflavik, operating at MTOW would have the same problems as for the Caravelle 3.

edina · Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting 797charter (Reply 19):
They even discussed a "double-decked" version with passengers sitting one-by-one in part of the luggage compartment, flying from Scandinavia to Spain/Mallorca. Entrance by the airstairs in the tail. But due to some issues with security never in production!

Do you have any more info on this project??

Having worked on the Super12s with IT it beats me how they could have got any more than 128/131 pax into one of those aircraft.

timz · Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting ClipperNo1 (Reply 24):
I guess that Narsarsuaq, Greenland could've handled a Caravelle.

And if it was an allowed alternate then staying within 400 nm doesn't require a big detour (on a transatlantic flight west from Scandinavia, anyway).

If the OAG is to be believed, SAS scheduled a DC-8 to Narssarsuaq in 1968.

SkyyMaster · Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Teixeim (Reply 16):
I seem to recall that Varig operated the Caravelle between North America and Brazil for a short time in the 60s. It was a multi-stop route for sure. Perhaps someone else can confirm - a quick web search did not confirm my memory.

I have a July 1962 issue of the OAG with this Varig Caravelle routing (I can't recall some of the airport codes off the top of my head so I'll just list cities) - it operated 1x weekly.

NY (Idlewild) -Santo Domingo-Port of Spain-Belem-Braslia-Rio de Janiero (Galeao)-Sao Paulo (Congonhas)-Porto Alegre. Northbound in reverse order. I would have expected MIA Cravelle service in there, but oddly, no MIA services show in this issue other than the route map, with the only n/s indicated to Caracas then southward. Don't know if it was a CVL though.

OldAeroGuy · Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting ClipperNo1 (Reply 24):
I guess that Narsarsuaq, Greenland could've handled a Caravelle. It still a prefered stop-over for Lears ferrying across the Atlantic.

Sondre Stromfjord and Narsarsuaq were important alternates even in the days of 120 min. ETOPS. As others have noted, along with KEF, they made Trans-Atlantic twin flights possible in the 60 min rule days.

cf6ppe · Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:15 pm

ETOPS wasn't known or designed until the -80's when the A300's were already flying. What existed for twin engine equipment was the so-called 60 minutes from land rule. What is apparent from the above posters is that the Caravelle's were operated on the 60 minute rule and were perfectly legal to the then FAR's.

When Eastern started operating the A300's in 1977/78, the 60 minute rule was still applicable so they (EAL) operated the A300's from JFK to SJU on a sweeping arc keeping within 60 minutes of alternates. The sweeping arc flattened when the 60 minute rule was extended to 75 minutes for the A300's. Eventually with 90 minutes exemption, the routing was direct from JFK to SJU.

timz · Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting CF6PPE (Reply 30):
What existed for twin engine equipment was the so-called 60 minutes from land rule.

A US rule, applying to all flights to/from the US? When did it start?

BOAC911 · Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 28):
I have a July 1962 issue of the OAG with this Varig Caravelle routing (I can't recall some of the airport codes off the top of my head so I'll just list cities) - it operated 1x weekly.

Positively yes. VARIG did fly the Caravelle to North America in the early 1960's. Not nonstop of course. The Caravelle was relegated mostly to short and mid-range routes worldwide, however when it first entered commercial service, its speed, reliability, and overall cabin comfort (less noise in front cabin) was unparalelled in the industry, and thus the aircraft was initially introduced on longer routes such as RG's to NYC or AF to the Middle East for competitive reasons.

EXAAUADL · Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:08 am

Begining in 1959, Varig actually flew Caravelles From RIO to NYC, via somewhere in northern brasil, aruba and I think Miami

timz · Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:38 am

It was Rio to Belem to Port of Spain to Nassau to IDL.

PPPDL · Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:31 am

Quote:
panair do Brasil, the other major carrier in Brazil until it was shut down by the government in 1965, also operated the Caravelle. Pan Am owned 30% of panair do Brasil (thus their name) until 1961 when it was taken over by the government. At one time, it was the largest airline in South America. They were the Brazilian flag carrier to Europe until their shutdown in 1965, when their Europe routes were transferred to Varig

Panair do Brasil was, indeed, Brazil's largest carrier up until the 60's, but they were never taken up by the government. The Pan Am interest was bought out by Brazilian businessmen Celso da Rocha Miranda and Mario Wallace Simonsen in 1961. The airline was forced to shutdown overnight by a decree of the military government, which had a clear agenda against these men. All their companies were closed because they were supporters of civilian leaders of the time. That's the first thing dictatorships instated by coups do: mine civilian leadership.

This TIME article is interesting from a historical point of view, but the content is biased. It merely reproduces the government's official version of events. A Brazilian author has recently released a prize-winning book on the episode, called "Pouso Forcado". He had access to documents and people of the time and presents all parties' arguments in a balanced way. Recommended reading for those who think Varig "acquired" Panair, its aircraft or its rights to fly to Europe.

Viscount724 · Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting PPPDL (Reply 35):
Panair do Brasil was, indeed, Brazil's largest carrier up until the 60's, but they were never taken up by the government. The Pan Am interest was bought out by Brazilian businessmen Celso da Rocha Miranda and Mario Wallace Simonsen in 1961. The airline was forced to shutdown overnight by a decree of the military government, which had a clear agenda against these men. All their companies were closed because they were supporters of civilian leaders of the time. That's the first thing dictatorships instated by coups do: mine civilian leadership.

Thanks for the clarification. It was difficult to find much detailed information on Panair do Brasil's history.

milesrich · Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:49 pm

Sterling bought the majority (13 of 20) of UA's Caravelle VIR's and used them for charter including transatlantic via Iceland. When United sold them, there was a big article about it in the Denver Post, circa 1971 or 72. I believe the Caravelles were removed from the schedule in 1971. When they were in service, all based at EWR, one was kept in Denver for training, but when the were removed from service, they were all stored at Stapleton, at the Flight Training Center tarmac and could be viewed from Quebec Street. The Sterling Caravelle TransAtlantic flights were not ETOPS as they were never more than 60 minutes from land. AF flew Caravelles in the Caribbean but I believe they only flew out of MIA and SJU, but not IDL/JFK to FDF and PAP.

At about the same time the Caravelles were sold, the 720-022's were being removed from service. About half the fleet was stored in Denver and the other half at MSP, including one aircraft that was leased to BN for a while and painted in two tone blue Flying Colors. The DC-8-33's (ex Pan Am) were moved to DEN when they were removed from service as well in about 1973.

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