Quoting Rineanna (Reply 147):
So with DM saying that EI will be able to operate these three routes with the aircraft it has now and the 2 aircraft it has coming, will EI still be able to operate the existing t/a routes at the increased frequencies announced not so long ago , or will they have to back track on that plan in order to have enough capacity to launch them?
I suspect that the airline would not have beefed up the existing frequencies for this summer had it know for sure that the deal would go through. Obviously they have sold seats for the extra flights on existing routes so new ones have to wait.

Quoting EIRules (Reply 148):
All these American carriers will be looking at DUB with increased interest too remember.
Something that has not been mentioned. We could potentially now see UA & NW come into Dublin. I think AA will be eying up MIA - DUB.

[Edited 2007-03-22 16:39:46]

Good news for EI's share price as well. All those Pilots are doing quite well now!!!

March 22 (Bloomberg) -- Shares of Aer Lingus Plc, Ireland's
second-largest airline, rose to a record after European Union
approval of a trans-Atlantic aviation treaty today prompted the
carrier to add three U.S. routes.
Shares of Aer Lingus rose as much as 18 cents, or 5.8
percent, to 3.30 euros and were up 3.7 percent at 3.20 euros as
of 3:25 p.m. in Dublin, the highest price since the airline's
Sept. 27 initial public offering. The shares have risen 17
percent this year, valuing the Dublin-based carrier at 1.7
billion euros ($2.3 billion).

The MCO route will definitely improve that falling load-factor, as when it was operated before, it was always close to full!!!
I suppose SNN will lose ORD, but retain a daily BOS and JFK?? I wonder will we see an EI flights operating DUB-SNN/ SNN-DUB anymore?

SFO, IAD and MCO, in addition to LAX, JFK, BOS and ORD!!!! With all those, I really wna fly for EI now!!! Now, if they'd just call me!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting EIBoston (Reply 149): Remember the increased frequencies on the current routes are planned only from March to October.

Oh yes, ok that explains it.

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 153): I wonder will we see an EI flights operating DUB-SNN/ SNN-DUB anymore?

I'd say it'll be around for a good while yet until the full transistion fromm the SNN stopover to open skies is completed. The time FR announced the DUB-ORK route. MOL did say that they were looking at DUB-KIR and DUB-SNN. I can't see DUB-SNN being a profitable route for FR. Then again I didn't think Weeze would have survived this long from SNN either, but it has. I'd like to see RE get back on the route and put proper schedules in place to facilitate business pax.

Great day for Aer Lingus! I'm glad they have finally got what they wanted and I can't wait to see the next announcement about future growth such as the long-haul order, it's going to be close but I think the 787 has the edge!

Did anyone get or find any pics of the 747 LCF in SNN today, it must have been an awsome sight. SNN gets all the fun, first the A380 and now the LCF!

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 142): But the agreement means the airline will be able to serve three additional cities - San Francisco, Orlando and Washington (Dulles) from today. Aer Lingus will have access to the entire American market once the agreement comes into effect fully next year.

That's very interesting; thanks for sharing, Pilot21! I am very relieved. If that's what MC is saying, then it's good enough for me. It seems we are going for full Open Skies from next year, so no transitional period.

You know what really amuses me? For years, I have been trying to prod different Irish ministers to move on ahead, with no success. Now, the minister is actually moving faster than I thought possible; good on you, Martin Cullen!

Quoting EI321 (Reply 150): I think AA will be eying up MIA - DUB.

Well someone certainly should , its a very popular route and at the moment passengers have to go DL via ATL or JFK or AA Via ORD.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 156): Now, the minister is actually moving faster than I thought possible; good on you, Martin Cullen!

Hmmm theres an election comming up!!!!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 157): Hmmm theres an election comming up!!!!

Well in fairness, this is something I'd hazard a guess ALL of us on this thread wanted to see happen, and in fairness MC has gone and worked hard to push it through. I don't he's powerful enough to orchestrate the EU so that the OS agreement would come through right before the election so as to boost his vote! 

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 155): it's going to be close but I think the 787 has the edge!

What are the rumours/sources that make so many of you so sure that Boeing has a better chance getting the EI l/h order? Just asking...

As I've said before, neither would really surprise me, but if anything, I think I'd be a "little" more surprised at a 787 order instead of a 350 order. Despite the fact that the 787 still hasn't flown (a fact so many on a.net seem to forget), this a/c has already proved itself (regarding sales anyway... a lot still remains to be seen), thus I think Airbus will have much greater interest in gaining the order and in maintaining EI as a complete Airbus operator. Personnally, I think it would not be such a good idea for Aer Lingus, now that it's finally getting itself into a good position (and we unfortunately don't know how long that will last, as even though it hurts me to say it, our EI is still just a "small player" in the industry) to start mixing it's fleet (yes I know some of you will say it doesn't matter, they can keep Airbus for s/h and switch to Boeing for l/h, but still the fleet is small and the commonality and the simple convenience of one manufacturer is going to be an advantage IMHO.
Those who bring up possible doubts regarding the 350 due to the 380 is rubbish (fingers crossed I won't be eating my words in a few years!).
Others have said the 350 is too big? Which is not completely the case.
I also think Airbus will be in a position to offer a better deal on interim a/c and the s/h fleet (remember DM has also rumoured his desire to increase the s/h fleet).
All that said, I'm glad the order is to happen soon, as the 350 is coming into service later, and slots are slowly starting to fill, and we all know how well the 787 has sold thus far. This I think may be a key in their decision.
Anyway, despite our personal a/c preferences (mine being with Airbus, just because I like their aircraft, I live beside their plant and from my very "untechnical" business dealings with them, it's a great company filled with excellent people -including my beautiful wife of course!...not saying the same doesn't apply to Boeing, and no, I don't have a second wife in Boeing-), Aer Lingus will pick the plane that suits them best, and of that, we have no true idea (here's hoping EI does!).
Anyway, that's my 2 cents for this evening!

I would love EI to order the A350, I'm a big Airbus fan but I'm also an Aer Lingus fan and I believe the 787 will be the best aircraft for Aer Lingus. I think Airbus has rushed the A350XWB and until the design is frozen the 787 will have the edge, it has proven to be a winner in sales with over 400 whereas the A350 has proven to be a winner in nothing yet. I am not saying the A350 will not be a good aircraft in fact I think it will be an excellent aircraft but until Airbus can prove it the 787 will look a better choice, right size, cheaper, sooner and a big sales winner with lots of airline not just US carriers. Aer Lingus and Boeing also have a long history together.

It's not all just Boeing though, there are quite a few reasons EI should order Airbus too. Aer Lingus has an all Airbus fleet and is looking to expand it with more A320s and A330s which could be included in an A350XWB deal. The A350 has got a good amount of orders and with lots rumoured. Also the A350 is not too large, it's big enough for current needs and for future growth, the A350-900 with around 340 seats in two class (the A333s currently have 327), and the A350-800 will have around 290 seats in two class (the A332s have 275) which is not a massive increase at all.
I don't believe that the A350 will suffer the same problems the A380 did, you never know maybe Boeing will hit some problems, it was after the first flight when Airbus announced the delay I hope Boeing dont do the same!

RTE's six one has reported that United airlines is very interested in starting IAD AND (wait for it ) ORD to Dublin!

How about that eh? Either we're well off target on our predictions about EI starting Dulles to hamper an United attempt to start or RTE have some very dodgy reporting going on! They even said that the Two routes are very close to fruition!   

I'm of the thought that the more U.S carriers flying to Dublin the better, regardless of the impact on Aer Lingus. If anything it will reduce fares and increase the respective airlines offerings, which is much due to the Irish flying public.

RTE's correspondent Sean Whelan was in Brussels reporting and he commented that the days of Iberia and Alitalia are quickly coming to an end as BA and AirFrance/KLM are likely to swallow them up, starting the first of many mergers within Europe.

Any thoughts on who , besides Ryanair, would be interested in an EI acquisition? Is this totally off the cards with Ryanairs 25% holding?

Thoughts/Opinions?

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 160):

Thanks for your great response and for sharing your opinions with me Shamrock350!
As you know, I'm also an Airbus fan and an Aer Lingus fan. To be honest, I would have loved to see the 777 with Aer Lingus. For some reason the 787 doesn't do anything for me. But that's just personal preferences and has nothing to do with an order in the real world.

One thing I will pick you up on is that I do not for one second believe the idea some a.netters through around (not accusing you my friend) that the 350 has been rushed. A company like Airbus/Boeing doesn't just pull new product designs out of their back pockets when needs be. Granted, Airbus decided the initial 350 project wasn't enough against the 787 and have enhanced it. Anyway, that's a difficult thing to argument.
And a second thing, I do not think the great sales of the 787 has proven "that" much nor reflects badly on the 350. What happened, Airbus was busy with their 380, Boeing was in a bad way (only a few years ago), Airbus got comfortable, and Boeing suddenly got its act together and presented the right a/c at the right time, i.e. the 787. As you said, the 787 still has to proove itself, just as the 350 does, and as an aviation fan, I sincerely hope both the 787 and 350 will be successes.

As an Aer Lingus fan, I do think an Airbus order will be a wiser decision for Aer Lingus (for the reasons I stated in my previous post, but then again, as all/most of us, I'm just giving my opinion as an a.net airline CEO!!).

Yes Aer Lingus has a long history with Boeing (but in the end, I'd say that at this stage Aer Lingus has operated more Airbus aircraft than Boeing aircraft). Airbus is a younger company, but it and Aer Lingus also share quite a strong and significant history together.

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 161): RTE's six one has reported that United airlines is very interested in starting IAD AND (wait for it ) ORD to Dublin!

Would be nice to see United in DUB.

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 161): Any thoughts on who , besides Ryanair, would be interested in an EI acquisition?

I've often thought about this and have no idea. Who is there really left to acquire an airline such as EI? BA is a possible runner. AF? LH? I don't see many others.

BA can keep their grubby hands off EI, I dont not like the idea of BA buying anyone let alone Aer Lingus I would prefer FR having EI...well I dunno maybe I will have to think about that one  

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 162): Airbus is a younger company, but it and Aer Lingus also share quite a strong and significant history together.

Aer Lingus was an early A330 customer wasn't it?

The order will be close and I am very happy EI is near a decision and in a position to order. It will be a big step in ensuring the future of Aer Lingus will be profitable and good for the passenger. In the mean time I'm looking forward to seeing what EI gets as interim, the A330s is obvious but any new aircraft is a step in the right direction for EI.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 163): Would be nice to see United in DUB.

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 161): RTE's six one has reported that United airlines is very interested in starting IAD AND (wait for it ) ORD to Dublin!

OK OK now im getting excited!!!! If UA came to Dublin then all my transatlantic flights would be so easy !!! For once a decent Star Alliance carrier operating to the USA.....dare I dream.

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 161): RTE's correspondent Sean Whelan was in Brussels reporting and he commented that the days of Iberia and Alitalia are quickly coming to an end as BA and AirFrance/KLM are likely to swallow them up, starting the first of many mergers within Europe.

I've heard that Lufthansa is interested in Iberia; that'll be an interesting marriage. Considerable fleet commonality though. I could see AF/KL getting together with Alitalia, once they sort themselves out. Emotionally, of course, I would HATE to see EI being bought out, particularly by BA. I would tend to prefer FR over BA, although I would prefer neither, but a time may come when it is best for them to link up with another carrier. However, just as the AF buyout of KLM didn't result in the end of that great name (and I don't think it ever will, realistically), I don't this will happen to IB or AZ either. We may well see consolidation, but I think that there is always room for a small carrier that knows its business and does it well.

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 161): RTE's six one has reported that United airlines is very interested in starting IAD AND (wait for it ) ORD to Dublin!

Wouldn't surprise me; EI certainly has a fight on its hands; ORD, in particular, is going to become very crowded and both the big US carriers have the advantage of major hubs there, something EI does not. Still, EI's costs are lower and it can also have an effective hub at DUB.

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 160): cheaper, sooner and

Not for EI. With great sale success of 787 Boeing has no pressure to offer discounts. It is also sold out until 2013-2014. Airbus is under much bigger pressure, so XWB may actually prove cheaper. Don't get mislead by list prices, thy have little to do with reality.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 166): Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 161): RTE's six one has reported that United airlines is very interested in starting IAD AND (wait for it ) ORD to Dublin!

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Well, it IS RTE, and their reporting can be sketchy at the best of times. AA and EI already operate ORD-DUB, so i'd be surprised to see a 3rd airline. UA doesnt offer that many flights ex IAD and ORD to Europe that arent Star Alliance hubs, so DUB would be a surprise.

I thing the routes will be more like this:

DUB-
JFK X 2+ 1 X SNN
BOS X 1 through SNN
ORD X 1 with flight starting and ending in SNN
LAX X 3
DXB X 3
SFO X 4
IAD X 4
MCO X 3

The latter 3 have yet to be added to the system, but according to aerlingus.com these will be the frequencies for the routes. I suppose the older routes could be played around with a bit as well.

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 169): UA doesnt offer that many flights ex IAD and ORD to Europe that arent Star Alliance hubs, so DUB would be a surprise.

They have great South America connections and US domestic connections. They are my 1st choice across the pond. Ive been to IAD/AUS/ORD/LAX/SFO/SMF/BUR/DEN/PVD with them and I can see them doing a 757 or 767 operation into Dublin. I did hear that they wanted to launch Dublin last year from someone in the UK sales office. I would really love to see the 777 into Dublin. They have a very good Y and J class product. PTV's in Y also.

Ok this is the deal:

Three routes available for booking from early next week.

Washington Dulles to start 3rd Sept four times weekly with introductiry one way fare of €199 incl. tax & charges

SFO starting end of October 4x weekly with introductory gfares of €239 all in.

MCO starting end of October 3x weekly with introductory fares of €219 all in .

These all EXclude fuel surcharges

Looking Good!

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 172): €239 all in.

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 172): €219 all in

Quoting Shamrock330 (Reply 172): These all EXclude fuel surcharges

No disrespect but how can these be all in and then NOT include the fuel surcharges!!! That really [email protected]@es me off about some airlines. I want to know what the FINAL total is . How much am I going to pay incl taxes/surcharges etc.... thats what ALL IN means .

When Dermot Mannion was being interviewed on the radio earlier on, he said that those prices include surcharges.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 173): No disrespect but how can these be all in and then NOT include the fuel surcharges!!! That really [email protected]@es me off about some airlines. I want to know what the FINAL total is . How much am I going to pay incl taxes/surcharges etc.... thats what ALL IN means .

Fully agree. I think it is foolish to play "Ryanair game" on long haul where US carriers ddon't do that. What else is not included? Baggae charges? Credsit card fees, booking fees? Shame!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 173): How much am I going to pay incl taxes/surcharges etc.... thats what ALL IN means .

Sorry, thats a mistake on my part.

I was merely regurgitating what Dermot Mannion stated in an interview today. He quoted the fares with a " and thats one way including all taxes and charges". The interview lasted the bones of 3 mins only for the host to rightfully question him at the end if they included the fuel surcharge. DM answered "no" and then began a spiel on how it was recently reduced and is one of the lowest in the industry,

Quoting OA260 (Reply 173): How much am I going to pay incl taxes/surcharges etc.... thats what ALL IN means .

Like I said, I wrongfully added the "all in". I THINK the fuel surcharge is €35 so I suppose you add it on to the fares quoted above.

Those prices do include fuel charges and taxes according to DM. He was asked if they included surcharges and he said "yes they do include the surcharge" he was then asked if there was adding on to that price with the charge and he said "no" so those fares look very reasonable! I think I will start saving  

Quoting Danny (Reply 167): Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 160): cheaper, sooner and Not for EI. With great sale success of 787 Boeing has no pressure to offer discounts. It is also sold out until 2013-2014. Airbus is under much bigger pressure, so XWB may actually prove cheaper. Don't get mislead by list prices, thy have little to do with reality.

Very true! Airbus are going to offer a great deal especially with A330s thrown in.

[Edited 2007-03-22 23:55:49]

Quoting Ei 168 (Reply 174): When Dermot Mannion was being interviewed on the radio earlier on, he said that those prices include surcharges.

Yep, just listened to the interview on RTE.ie and he does state at the end that those fares INCLUDE the fuel surcharge.

Quoting EI787 (Reply 178): Yep, just listened to the interview on RTE.ie and he does state at the end that those fares INCLUDE the fuel surcharge.

Ok I could have sworn that they didn't include the Fuel Surcharge, but Included all other taxes and charges. I'm open to correction.

Its about time the EU made airlines advertise the FINAL price incl all charges . You see these ads for Eur199 which at the end becomes Eur259 or even more !!! Its false advertising. Thats like going to the swimming pool and paying Eur5 to get in but its another Eur 4 to actually swim.

Crap comparison I know but i cant think of anything else , but you get the idea LOL.....

P.S. Shamrock330 I wasnt critisising you by the way just to make sure and cover myself lol...

Quoting EISHN (Reply 170): I thing the routes will be more like this: DUB- JFK X 2+ 1 X SNN BOS X 1 through SNN ORD X 1 with flight starting and ending in SNN LAX X 3 DXB X 3 SFO X 4 IAD X 4 MCO X 3

I would make a few small amendments to the above, in that there would be a daily nonstop from DUB-BOS, plus about 4-5 weekly, SNN-BOS. Thus, two A330-300s based at SNN could look after these two flights. (The SNN-DUB-ORD service would be operated by a DUB based aircraft).

Of the remainder, MCO and DXB will be four weekly. So, if we tot up all the DUB flights, I think we are looking at about 40 frequencies a week, which amounts to about six aircraft, plus the two ex-SNN, which would be eight in all. They may be planning to have one of them go in for a D check?

One thought that occurred to me yesterday was what would happen to the flight numbers. Traditionally - and this is going back a good few decades, EI t/a flights have been in the 100-130 series, with 140 being added for LAX (EI 145/44). The JFKs are in the 100-110 series, the ORD in the 120s, BOS in the 130s etc. Now with a significant increase in flights and routes, I'm wondering if, ultimately, they may have to renumber the LHR flights (which start in the 150s), to accommodate the new flights. I don't think they'll need to do so yet, because there are plenty of spare numbers, but it may be necessary as the network expands. I'm sure that's the very least of their concerns?

Today's Irish Times reports that NWA is in talks with the DAA for a DUB-DTW route.

"Northwest Airlines, meanwhile, is believed to be in detailed negotiations with the Dublin Airport Authority about launching a direct route from Detroit city in Michigan to Dublin from next spring, after the Shannon stopover has been abolished fully".

Another article reports that United is also interested. You know, I remember when Northwest Orient (as it was back then) was the ONLY US airline flying to Dublin. After my Leaving Cert in 1987 (ok, younger folks, don't bother counting that - I'm old!), I flew DUB-SNN/SNN-JFK* on a Northwest DC10-40. Then, Delta replaced NWA and flew L1011-500s to ATL and they in turn were the only ones for a few years - all thanks, of course, to our wonderful stopover. Delta should be praised for staying with us all this time, despite the stopover and all the nonsense that constituted our "aviation policy".

Bit by bit, more came in - Continental, American, US Airways now and from next year, all going well, UA and NW. Of course, consolidation could change that, but it certainly looks good. Ah, what a lovely thought: 7h with NW on a transatlantic 757. Hmm ... maybe not.

(*Back in 1987, Northwest had two flights through Ireland, both with DC10s; one went PIK-SNN-JFK and the other, DUB-SNN-BOS, so I had to change plane; on the way out, we were delayed about 2-3 hours, because of a generator problem. I also recall the return landing from JFK into SNN was an absolute greaser - perfect!)

[Edited 2007-03-23 06:30:50]

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 183): Am I correct saying the transitional period is effective now untill next march?

According to the Indo the 3:1 ratio does not kick in until after the summer season. They also say that any of the US Airlines could in fact build up credits this summer on the SNN stop and then abandon it before next March and only fly to DUB. Well at least that is how I read it.

It will be great for the Irish consumer to see all these new US airlines operating into Dublin if indeed they do commence services.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 182): You know, I remember when Northwest Orient (as it was back then) was the ONLY US airline flying to Dublin.

I remember them well. NW 747's coming in to land on '24'.
Going back even further, I can distinctly recall when the final TWA 707 left DUB on it's way to JFK (now THAT's back in the mists of time !).
We've certainly come a long way.
Roll on UA and the return of NW.

Some pics of the LCF at SNN for those who are interested.
http://www.shannonairportenthusiasts.net/photos/thumbnails.php?album=1

Quoting EIBoston (Reply 184): According to the Indo the 3:1 ratio does not kick in until after the summer season. They also say that any of the US Airlines could in fact build up credits this summer on the SNN stop and then abandon it before next March and only fly to DUB. Well at least that is how I read it.

No, the Indo is wrong; the transitional period started yesterday! We NOW have the 3:1, although unfortunately it's a bit too late to change the Summer schedules. It continues like this until the end of March, 2008 and then, full Open Skies.

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 187): Some pics of the LCF at SNN for those who are interested.

Thanks for that Shamrock350! 

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 188): No, the Indo is wrong;

Yes I was wondering about that all right. The same article suggested in relation to the expected consolidation in the market that EI is in a position to be an acquirer rather than an aquired airline. I don't think I agree with that. EI has alot on its plate right now without going off and investing in another carrier!

Well chaps, I think it's probably time we closed off this rather historic thread. Remember it folks - the Special St. Patrick's Day Irish Thread was the one that finally saw the SNN stopover axed. Who said No. 13 was unlucky!

Here we go!
The New Dawn! Irish Aviation Thread 14/07 (by Kaitak Mar 23 2007 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2007-03-23 21:07:27]