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UALPHLCS
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Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:26 am

Big version: Width: 1600 Height: 1200 File size: 761kb


This is just an intellectual exercise. I have a rough Idea when this pic was taken. I found it very interesting because of how much you can tell about the date by just what is shown.


It was given to me by a historian who worked down at the Pentagon getting some artifacts. This was a candid shot taken by a member of the team. He doesn't remember who so I can put it up on airliners.net.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:48 am

Sometime between 9/11/01 and 11/30/01 (the date UA pulled 727s from service, IIRC).
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Sometime between 9/11/01

Yes, but to add more specifics that plane is going into DCA. I would also add that it is clear that the 727 is on River Visual.

[Edited 2007-04-04 01:07:21]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Sometime between 9/11/01 and 11/30/01 (the date UA pulled 727s from service, IIRC).



Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
Yes, but to add more specifics that plane is going into DCA.

IIRC, DCA remained closed until early November 2001. So, this picture has to be between 1 Nov. and 30 Nov. 2001.

Also notice the construction contractor has clean, and leveled off at least the upper 3 floors on the Pentagon. There is still plenty of damage inside the rooms/offices that are open to view, but the wall has already been straightened, in preperation to rebuild this section.

Notice how thick the outside walls and the floor sections are? They must be 2'+ thick.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:07 am

I found this (via Google) from some testimony given to Congress in support of re-opening DCA to GA flights...

October 4, 2001
On this date, scheduled airline flights from eight hub airports
were allowed to begin service to DCA under a phased-in plan
announced by the President.

October 26, 2001
Phase II of the DCA reopening plan begins. Operations to
DCA from 26 scheduled airline hub airports are permitted.


I can't find the lists of the 8 and 26 airports mentioned, but if I had to "guess", it'd be that ORD is one of the first 8, and your date range is then 10/04/2001 to 11/30/01.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Also notice the construction contractor has clean, and leveled off at least the upper 3 floors on the Pentagon. There is still plenty of damage inside the rooms/offices that are open to view, but the wall has already been straightened, in preperation to rebuild this section.

Yes, well the information I got from the Curator I work with who was on the team that went to the Pentagon, was that the FBI had control of the building for about 2 weeks after the attack. The Contractor that had just completed the renovations to the affected area as hired on 9/12 to rebuild once the FBI released the scene. The historians made 9 trips to the site over several weeks. This pic was towards the end obviously.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
your date range is then 10/04/2001 to 11/30/01.

That was my assessment too. What's interesting about this picture is just how much you can glean from just the visuals. Had that been a 737-300 or 500 you couldn't make as precise a determination as we can because it's a 727. There is a relatively short window of time that a UA 727 going into DCA after 9/11 was possible.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
That was my assessment too. What's interesting about this picture is just how much you can glean from just the visuals. Had that been a 737-300 or 500 you couldn't make as precise a determination as we can because it's a 727. There is a relatively short window of time that a UA 727 going into DCA after 9/11 was possible.

Two other items may help you narrow it down further.

1/ The weather was obviously clear.

2/ There's a shadow to the left of the flag and two poles that can narrow down time of day.

The NWS/NOAA has a unit (National Climate Data Center, in Asheville, IIRC) that probably has past METAR data for DCA. If you can line-up the dates/times with clear weather and an old United timetable, you may well get closer to your answer.
 
regupilot
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:03 am

If the picture was taken with a digital camera, check out the EXIF data. It will tell you everything of the picture, including camera model, exposure, bla bla, and date and time of the day.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:06 am

These pictures were taken on 10/05/01:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/01...ds/content1.pentagon.rebuilds.html

I'm not sure if this will help you narrow down the dates, but the activity and weather seem similar
 
contrails
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
2/ There's a shadow to the left of the flag and two poles that can narrow down time of day.

This picture had to be taken in the morning, since the shadows have the sun in the east. The part of the building hit by AA 77 is on the west side.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting ReguPilot (Reply 7):
check out the EXIF data

OK now you have me intrigued. I was really only looking for a date range based on the visuals because it is a photo with a wealth of information if you know ceratin things. However, how do I get to the EXIF information? Because now I want to see how close our guesses were.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting Contrails (Reply 9):
This picture had to be taken in the morning, since the shadows have the sun in the east.

I'd say closer to mid-day. The west side was hit. The south parking lot was the staging area. The short shadow on the Pentagon itself and the glint of light from the pick-up truck suggest to me that the sun is in high in the southern sky.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting ReguPilot (Reply 7):
check out the EXIF data.

*facepalm* Of course!

10/5/01, 1:05pm with a Sony Cybershot, f6.8, 1/475 sec shutter speed, focal length 18mm, ISO 80
 
WestWing
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:36 am

The data is embedded in the jpeg file.
Cybershot 2001/10/05 13:05:23 (1/475 sec f/6.8 Focal Length 18.3mm) .
This assumes the date setting on the camera was correct.

[EDIT: D'oh. Westy has faster fingers]

[Edited 2007-04-04 02:41:52]
 
Dtw757
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RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:43 am

My guess is going to be closer to the early October date rather than the late November date. I'm not too sure about the DC area but in the midwest, our trees have lost all their leaves by the end of November and more often by the beginning of November. The trees in the picture are still green just starting to turn color.
 
UALPHLCS
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Help Me Date This Pic.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
10/5/01, 1:05pm with a Sony Cybershot, f6.8, 1/475 sec shutter speed, focal length 18mm, ISO 80

Damn my mid-day assesment was close. Awesome.

So if flight operations resumed on the 4th this picture was take on only the second day, and the first full day of operations at DCA.

Wow! This is a cooler picture than I thought!

Quoting WestWing (Reply 13):
This assumes the date setting on the camera was correct.

That would be a good assumption since the picture was taken by a member of the Center for Military History team for posterity. I'm not 100% but I'd be comfortable assuming those guys had the date right.

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