Alitalia744
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:41 am

ATL-HNL will stay and will stay 764. Config may change eventually with the up-pull of 764s.

LAX-HNL will go all 763.

LAX-OGG will be 763.

No 764s will sit on the ground for 15hrs in SFO.

KOA and LIH are still TBD and if they happen, look for 75ETOPS.
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1337Delta764
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 47):
Agreed...it's actually the worst first class configuration delta has EXCEPT for the aircraft they just put into Hawaii service from LAX, the 763. At least the 764 has in seat video though...on the 763, we'll just be twiddling our thumbs and wishing we'd brought a laptop with dvd. Flew an AA 767 with their biz class and what a different product...amazing they can charge the same price.

United's product to Hawaii isn't any better. United's domestic first class seats on their 767s are 0.5" wider than Delta's, but offer an inch less pitch and no PTVs. The seats on UA's domestic 777s are 21" wide, but do not fly on LAX-HNL and still do not feature PTVs.

Delta's domestic 767-300s are slated to get PTVs in both First and Economy with AVOD and live TV functionality, although the live TV won't work on Hawaii flights. In economy they are also slated to get new slimline seats.
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Alitalia744
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 51):
Delta's domestic 767-300s are slated to get PTVs in both First and Economy with AVOD and live TV functionality, although the live TV won't work on Hawaii flights. In economy they are also slated to get new slimline seats.

Not the entire fleet.
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jkudall
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:01 am

This was inevitable. The loads right now might be doing okay because it is one of the busier times of the year. But most of the year, the SFO-HNL flight goes out with over 75 empty seats, many times over 100 empty.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 29):
Despite the SLC-HNL loads, THEY DON'T MAKE ANY $$$$!

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes Hawaii has lower yields than say Trans-Atlantic routes, but the SLC-HNL route along with ATL-HNL consistently have the highest yields and load factors (90% +) among the Hawaiian flights. The amount of cargo alone on these routes boosts the yields tremendously.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37):
It is mostly speculative at this point. But what I'm hearing from my DL employee contacts is they aren't happy with any SLC-Hawaii.

Not sure which Debbie Downer employees you have talked to, but SLC-HNL is probably one of the most successful routes out of SLC. Hence the reason DL is keeping it a 764 while others are going to 763.

[Edited 2007-06-07 04:10:48]
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 53):
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes Hawaii has lower yields than say Trans-Atlantic routes, but the SLC-HNL route along with ATL-HNL consistently have the highest yields and load factors (90% +) among the Hawaiian flights. The amount of cargo alone on these routes boosts the yields tremendously.

While the cargo no doubt raises what they are making on SLC-HNL, the biggest problem I've been told by "Debbie Downer" is the yields take a major hit from all the wholesale seats that are sold at a cut-rate price to package dealers like Morris-Murdock Travel. This way they can get all of the good-ole Mormon families over to Laie and the Polynesian Cultural Center, LDS Temple and BYU-Hawaii with a hotel deal for usually under $750.00 per head. At this price this is usually what the standard fare is for SLC-HNL at delta.com. This on top of the huge demand for FF seats on this route cut what DL can make down considerably. Perhaps the Morris-Murdock people can recruit Dave Neeleman back to start an SLC-HNL charter airline on a couple of surplus 763ERs!  biggrin 

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 53):
Hence the reason DL is keeping it a 764 while others are going to 763.

I think HNL will stay from SLC, but don't count on the 764 being permanent by any means.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 50):
KOA and LIH are still TBD and if they happen, look for 75ETOPS.

Probably some time next year after DL can get a few of the former TWA 752s ETOPs-180 certified with some Europe service out of JFK. But it is a pretty safe bet that OGG, KOA and LIH will all go from LAX.
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 37):
It is mostly speculative at this point. But what I'm hearing from my DL employee contacts is they aren't happy with any SLC-Hawaii.

SLC-HNL makes money for DL and will stay a 287-seat 767-400 for the time being. It is a successful flight and there are no plans for it to end. Why do you continue to insist that DL is unhappy with SLC as a hub and that no services make money considering you are from SLC? DL is very happy at SLC and will continue to expand service in the future. SLC-OGG is ending because it makes more sense for DL to route most Hawaii traffic through LAX with DL's plans to develop it into a Pacific hub. SLC-HNL is large enough a market, with enough connections, to warrant nonstop service in conjunction with LAX-HNL and ATL-HNL.

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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
I would think that all HNL routes (except from ATL) will use the domestic 767-300s. The ex-TWA 757s may be used on some OGG and KOA services, but it will be too small for HNL routes. However, the main reason why Delta is acquring the ex-TWA 757s is for shorter third-tier transatlantc flights. The ex-TWA 757s are slated to get 16 BusinessElite seats.

Yeah I've heard that OGG might or will be seeing B757's by Fall of '08

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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 22):
Some speculate that LAX-HNL and SLC-HNL/OGG might be DL's only Hawaii operations if aircraft needs become more desperate.

From an old post, SLC-OGG will be canned on August 19, 2007.

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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting AQ737 (Reply 45):

CO stopped running their 764's to Maui about a year ago, cause of that they decided to operate a single 752 nightly from LAX-OGG-LAX and that had stopped recently also.

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milesrich
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:37 pm

Is Leo Mullin consulting? SFO-HNL goes back to Western and was operated with 707-347C's, 720-047B's, DC-10's, and then after the merger, and the Ten's were disposed of, L-1011's. That flight ATL-SFO-HNL out of ATL in the afternoon has been around for a long time. What about the ATL-SFO and return segments? Not a money maker? Please!! This is nothing more than dumping an old time route with established customers to redeploy the aircraft where for the short run, yield may improve. Long term, loyal Delta customers are pushed away yet again. DUMB! DUMB! DUMB! I gues an RJ can't be used on these segments.  Smile Too bad for Skywest!
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:42 pm

Amazing all these post about DL discontinuing one lousy, non-core flight.  Confused

If one has not noticed most airlines in recent years have and continue to trim such non-core, non-hub flying.

Yes the route has had a long history since Western days, but today simply is not relevant in the bigger Delta network picture.
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 60):
Amazing all these post about DL discontinuing one lousy, non-core flight. Confused

If one has not noticed most airlines in recent years have and continue to trim such non-core, non-hub flying.

Yes the route has had a long history since Western days, but today simply is not relevant in the bigger Delta network picture.

Leo Mullin couldnt have put it better himself. These kinds of decisions are made entirely without thought to the FF base, and in this specific case it's been determined that the route was making money yet discontinued for short term gain elsewhere.
I bet you when open skies allows budget carriers to compete against the big boys trans-atlantic, DL will come crawling back to routes like these and find their market share gone, similar to what happened when Ron Allen and Leo Mullin bailed on the established Western hub in LAX.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 34):
think I heard PHL, CMH, ORD and PIT are also losing mainline.

That hurts.......................... Can you say D-F-W???

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 34):
I wouldn't be surprised if CVG-LGW gets cut to a 757 to free up another 763 for use out of ATL.

That I am not so sure of. CVG-LGW historically has been a very good performer having talked to many F/A's who live in my area and work the route.
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 61):
These kinds of decisions are made entirely without thought to the FF base, and in this specific case it's been determined that the route was making money yet discontinued for short term gain elsewhere.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the gain will be short term. And if you compare the risk of alienating the frequent flyers in the Bay Area who travel to Hawaii on Delta (who now willl have only to make a stop in LAX), with offering frequent flyers systemwide opportunities to travel to new destinations ... seems like an easy decision to make.
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:03 pm

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 61):
These kinds of decisions are made entirely without thought to the FF base, and in this specific case it's been determined that the route was making money yet discontinued for short term gain elsewhere.

Playing Delta's advocate here, but this may be short term pain for long term gain. DL mainline needs more aircraft, especially range capable aircraft, so when other aircraft arrive - you may see this be reinstated.
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 55):
SLC-HNL makes money for DL and will stay a 287-seat 767-400 for the time being. It is a successful flight and there are no plans for it to end.

A 764 can make 3x the $$S on a JFK or ATL flight to Europe than SLC-HNL for DL. This will dominate any network planning thought with a carrier that has just come through some rough financial times. While SLC-HNL has been profitable, with the shortage of widebody a/c at DL, other potentially higher yield routes will get priority thinking.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 55):
Why do you continue to insist that DL is unhappy with SLC as a hub and that no services make money considering you are from SLC? DL is very happy at SLC and will continue to expand service in the future.

While I'm a loyal SLC flier and do have a DL SkyMiles membership and AmEx card, I'm also a realist and know and understand the limitations that SLC has, especially when compared to nearby DEN, PHX and LAS. All of which from an O&D standpoint would be better places to hub from. SLC's only advantage is purely geographical. From an O&D market standpoint, I'll continue to classify it as a weak hub despite all the growth here along the Wasatch Front.  twocents 

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 55):
SLC-OGG is ending because it makes more sense for DL to route most Hawaii traffic through LAX with DL's plans to develop it into a Pacific hub.

Any service to the outer islands will be from LAX is what I'm hearing. OGG, KOA and LIH (if they decide to try serving there) are much more viable from southern California, although an SLC origination would be an idea network planning people are going to look at no doubt (i.e SLC-LAX-KOA etc...).

Quoting OGGFBORefueler (Reply 56):
Yeah I've heard that OGG might or will be seeing B757's by Fall of '08

OGG and KOA will likely see 752 service in the future, but LAX will be the mainland port for this service rather than SLC. It will take DL that long to get these former ETOPs-180 TWA 752s back up to that ETOPs certification. They can do this by flying them to Europe during what is left of the 2007 season and through the summer of 2008 from JFK.
Contrary to the thinking of many, not all of these 752s will be running out of JFK-Europe permanently, and Jerry Grinstein made it clear himself when DL petitioned the BK court last July when DL asked to sign new leases on these a/c that some would make their way to west coast/SLC operations to Hawaii. They need to put these planes on Europe routes first for ETOPs re-certification since Hawaii requires ETOPs-180, not just the revenue JFK-Europe might offer with greater frequencies and smaller O&D routes. DL was VERY SMART to jump at getting these additional 752s given the demand that is in the market for second hand a/c of this nature due to UPS and FedEx wanting them. Aside from telling Doug Parker and HP+US to "Ki$$-Off" during 2006, this was probably the smartest move by DL last year.  biggrin 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:40 pm

Does DL still fly SLC-KOA. I would expect that to be shifted to LAX-KOA with a 757 soon.


Also annually DL didnt do well on SFO-HNL...Over hte years OA's (Ex-UAL) have been pulling back their SFO-HNL services. CO dropped all together and AA went from 767 to 757s. It is possible DL also lost a cargo contract that would kill the flight.
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 66):
Does DL still fly SLC-KOA.

This ended last September (2006).

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 66):
I would expect that to be shifted to LAX-KOA with a 757 soon.

Probably by late 2008 it will be LAX-KOA with perhaps an SLC origination.
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 65):
A 764 can make 3x the $$S on a JFK or ATL flight to Europe than SLC-HNL for DL.

Not necessarily...I'd take ATLHNL any day of the week and twice on Sunday over ATLNCE or ATLEDI Wink
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 68):
Not necessarily...I'd take ATL-HNL any day of the week and twice on Sunday over ATL-NCE or ATL-EDI  wink 

Well, these are routes that would work better with a 752 going ATL-JFK-NCE or ATL-JFK-EDIwink  But there are other ATL/JFK routes to Europe that a 764 is needed for that would make more $$$ than SLC-HNL.  wink 
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ChiGB1973
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 19):
SLC-HNL is still scheduled to be a 764 for the foreseeable future, but its full EVERY day and there are no cheapo fares on that route.



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 29):
f I were making a business oriented decision I would find a way to keep California-Hawaii service on DL and axe any and all SLC flights. Despite the SLC-HNL loads, THEY DON'T MAKE ANY $$$$!



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 53):
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Yes Hawaii has lower yields than say Trans-Atlantic routes, but the SLC-HNL route along with ATL-HNL consistently have the highest yields and load factors (90% +) among the Hawaiian flights. The amount of cargo alone on these routes boosts the yields tremendously



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 55):
C-HNL makes money for DL and will stay a 287-seat 767-400 for the time being. It is a successful flight and there are no plans for it to end. Why do you continue to insist that DL is unhappy with SLC as a hub and that no services make money considering you are from SLC? DL is very happy at SLC and will continue to expand service in the future. SLC-OGG is ending because it makes more sense for DL to route most Hawaii traffic through LAX with DL's plans to develop it into a Pacific hub. SLC-HNL is large enough a market, with enough connections, to warrant nonstop service in conjunction with LAX-HNL and ATL-HNL



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 65):
While SLC-HNL has been profitable, with the shortage of widebody a/c at DL, other potentially higher yield routes will get priority thinking.

One of you is right, problem is, no one knows which one. Maybe one of you has the correct numbers, maybe a link or at least a reference would be nice. One says one thing, someone else the other and one says both. It's a bit confusing.

M
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 70):
One of you is right, problem is, no one knows which one. Maybe one of you has the correct numbers, maybe a link or at least a reference would be nice. One says one thing, someone else the other and one says both. It's a bit confusing.

Agreed. And I guess the fact of the matter is, it's just priorities. They need the 764 for europe and they've decided to can the route and not replace with a 763 like they did with the LAX-HNL frequencies. Probably just nostalgia on my part but that doesnt pay the bills now does it? And while I'd love to see the real numbers behind the two options here, no doubt that's propietary info we're quite unlikely to see.
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 11):
Anyone have any word on if (or when) the ex-TWA 757s will be used to Hawaii? Would certainly allow them to start up KOA again (probably from LAX this time)

I work for AQ Contract Services (they have the DL ground contract at KOA.) The rumor we're hearing now is that they will be back in October with a 757. Apparently they really want to get back in the market as they see it as a profitable one - it's just that the 764 makes more on their European runs.

As far as routing, I haven't heard anything.
 
jkudall
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 70):
One of you is right, problem is, no one knows which one. Maybe one of you has the correct numbers, maybe a link or at least a reference would be nice. One says one thing, someone else the other and one says both. It's a bit confusing.

Agreed. Sorry I cannot show you actual evidence as it would be in violation of company policy. I can tell you I look at the loads almost every day from the markets talked about on this thread and know what is coming on/off these planes and the fares paid for by pax. So I guess you would just have to take my word for it. Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 65):
While SLC-HNL has been profitable

In an earlier reply you were certain it was losing money, so which is it?

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 29):
Despite the SLC-HNL loads, THEY DON'T MAKE ANY $$$$!



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 65):
I'm also a realist and know and understand the limitations that SLC has, especially when compared to nearby DEN, PHX and LAS. All of which from an O&D standpoint would be better places to hub from. SLC's only advantage is purely geographical

DEN, PHX, LAS all have their disadvantages as an airline hub too you know. Yes O&D is nice, but SLC has a good share of it too. And DL doesn't have any problems filling up planes in SLC.

As many of you have seen, DL has and is doing a lot of expiramentation with new routes, shifting aircraft around, adding service some places while decreasing other places, and so on. LAX has grown for sure, but there is only so much LAX can do for Delta. Costs are much higher in LAX than SLC, turn around times are longer in LAX, there is much less gate space for DL at LAX, DL doesn't have large mx facilities in LAX, LAX sees many more delays, and on and on...

Not only that but you are much more likely to see SLC government officials bend over backwards to help Delta out and in return get more service than you would ever see LAX officials do for Delta. One of the main reasons DL has grown recently in LAX is because they don't want LAX to take away their extra gates, etc...

[Edited 2007-06-07 21:16:18]
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 65):
SLC's only advantage is purely geographical. From an O&D market standpoint, I'll continue to classify it as a weak hub despite all the growth here along the Wasatch Front.

Well, you are lucky you don't live in Cincinnati. You would druel to be in the growth mode that SLC is.
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 49):
Instead of trying to fill a 767, maybe they will try a 777 to HNL

Absolutely zero chance of that for the foreseeable future.

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 49):
Also, pending approval, I would imagine they may try LAX-HNL-SYD.

Not a priority right now, either, but I wish it was.

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 61):
Leo Mullin couldn't have put it better himself. These kinds of decisions are made entirely without thought to the FF base, and in this specific case it's been determined that the route was making money yet discontinued for short term gain elsewhere.

How do you know these decisions were made without thinking of the FF base? Perhaps that's why it's been around as long as it has, I don't know and neither do you. There is no evidence that the redeployment gains will be in any way short term.

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 63):
Quoting 764flyer (Reply 61):
These kinds of decisions are made entirely without thought to the FF base, and in this specific case it's been determined that the route was making money yet discontinued for short term gain elsewhere.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the gain will be short term. And if you compare the risk of alienating the frequent flyers in the Bay Area who travel to Hawaii on Delta (who now willl have only to make a stop in LAX), with offering frequent flyers systemwide opportunities to travel to new destinations ... seems like an easy decision to make.

Thank you, very well said.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 67):
Does DL still fly SLC-KOA.

This ended last September (2006).

I flew it in December 2006, but it is gone now.

Quoting UA2162 (Reply 72):
I work for AQ Contract Services (they have the DL ground contract at KOA.) The rumor we're hearing now is that they will be back in October with a 757. Apparently they really want to get back in the market as they see it as a profitable one - it's just that the 764 makes more on their European runs.

I think that makes some sense from what I know as well, although I doubt the AA 757's will be ETOPS 180 by then.

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 73):
DEN, PHX, LAS all have their disadvantages as an airline hub too you know. Yes O&D is nice, but SLC has a good share of it too. And DL doesn't have any problems filling up planes in SLC.

Well put. Some people think that a hub has to be located in the largest municipality possible. While O&D traffic is nice it isn't the only consideration. Delta does extremely well in SLC.
 
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 66):
Over hte years OA's (Ex-UAL) have been pulling back their SFO-HNL services. CO dropped all together and AA went from 767 to 757s.

Well, CO has been gone for years. AA changes between the 767 and 757 seasonally. TZ moved over to OAK because of the WN codeshare. However, the whole Bay area has gained service over the years. AQ has daily OAK-HNL/OGG/KOA and SMF-OGG flights. HA has flights 11x week SMF-HNL and a daily SJC-HNL flight in addition to their daily SFO-HNL flight. HA has tried to add a second SFO flight, but found it more profitable to add flights to the surrounding airports because the yields are better.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 66):
It is possible DL also lost a cargo contract that would kill the flight.

I doubt that. We use DL almost exclusively for transfers to SFO. We even use that flight to send cargo to ATL because the flight continues to ATL.
 
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SANFan
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:12 am

I checked some schedules (OAG for 6/27/07 to be exact) and was very surprised to see a huge discrepancy in the number of flights from SFO to HNL (8 TL: 4-UA, 1-HA, 1-DL, 1-AA, 1-NW) and LAX-HNL (18 TL: 4-AA, 3-ATA, 1-CO, 2-DL, 3-HA, 1-NW, 4-UA.) LA has over twice as many n/s to HNL as SFO! (I didn't compare outer island flights.) When I had earlier thought about the comparison (before actually counting flights) I figured maybe LA would have a couple more flights but I sure didn't think there would be such a huge difference. I know that service has been added from other airports (SJC, OAK, SMF, ONT, SNA) but again, that is fairly balanced between the Bay Area and the LA metro area. Finally, I would have expected more flights on UA from SFO as it is a real hub.

I would be curious to see O&D numbers from both cities to HNL but I don't know where to find them. (Maybe the HNL site? I didn't check that yet.) In any case, with the DL SFO-HNL flight going away, that's 1/8 less seats in that market; I wonder if someone else will pick them up with an additional flight?

I suppose this action by DL doesn't bode well for the eventual return of the much-missed SAN-HNL
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 77):
I suppose this action by DL doesn't bode well for the eventual return of the much-missed SAN-HNL
Widget flight... banghead

Seems like it all depends on getting the aircraft...in this case probably the etops 757s. The sooner the better. Wouldnt it be terrific to see a SLC-SAN-HNL in the morning and SLC-SFO-HNL in the afternoon like it used to be. Ahhhh nostalgia.

[Edited 2007-06-08 05:35:54]
 
Evan767
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:42 pm

So, I am guessing Delta's plan is to lower capacity and boost fares on low yielding, lesiure-oriented markets and put the bigger aircraft on more lucrative international routes? Sounds like a moneymaker to me. Also sounds like a bad deal for customers.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
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LAXintl
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 77):
I would be curious to see O&D numbers from both cities to HNL but I don't know where to find them.

Keep in mind, the LA Basin population is near 3X that of the Bay Area. That has lots to do with fact there are many more flights to Hawaii from Southern California then Northern.

2003
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2003
San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont-San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA MSA - 5,918,943
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HnlBoi
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 pm

Just out of Curiosity...what are the trips the SFO based flight attendants are going to have after they cancel the SFO-HNL flight. I know the SFO based ones basically consist of 3 trips which are ATL, CVG, and HNL all in which are turn flights. Are they only going to be flying to ATL, and CVG?
 
klwright69
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:58 am

I doubt we will ever see DL flying from the west coast to SYD via HNL. In fact I doubt we'll see any major U.S. carrier doing this routing. Remember CO flew all over the South Pacific via HNL for years. They finally saw the light and realized that the yields were terrible and therefore the flights were no longer worth it. Nobody willing to pay a decent fare wanted to connect in HNL at midnight to go to Australia and New Zealand. They couldn't compete with all the nonstops in the market. I don't think anyone is seriously considering such a thing.
 
764flyer
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 82):
Nobody willing to pay a decent fare wanted to connect in HNL at midnight to go to Australia and New Zealand.

Not to mention that DL has some of the meanest, rudest gate agents in HNL. Might work ok for the leisure travelers to the islands but certainly not for high yield passengers.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 75):
I flew it in December 2006, but it is gone now.

It actually ended in September, but DL brought it back due to good Christmas holiday bookings that probably would have cost them more money to re-route via HNL on GO or AQ. I think DL service to KOA will resume, but it will likely be on an ETOPs 752 routed SLC-LAX-KOA and vice-versa.

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 78):
Seems like it all depends on getting the aircraft...in this case probably the etops 757s. The sooner the better. Wouldnt it be terrific to see a SLC-SAN-HNL in the morning and SLC-SFO-HNL in the afternoon like it used to be. Ahhhh nostalgia.

I think there will be one daily SLC-HNL flight that survives this island service re-work of routings by DL, but SAN could see SLC-SAN-OGG or something along those lines.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 75):
Some people think that a hub has to be located in the largest municipality possible. While O&D traffic is nice it isn't the only consideration. Delta does extremely well in SLC.

Mostly due to DL picking up and doing something with the customer base from Western. SLC I've read has roughly 10-12 million O&D passengers a year, which is only half to a third as many as you would get in DEN, PHX or LAS. This is why SLC gets all of the knocks that it does and why many question its viability as a hub.

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 74):
Well, you are lucky you don't live in Cincinnati. You would druel to be in the growth mode that SLC is.

If SLC had the growth of PHX or LAS then such a desire would be for real!  biggrin 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
toltommy
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting 764flyer (Thread starter):
I see that DL will be stopping sfo-hnl service Sept 1. They've had this service for more than a decade now

Thats only since it was returned to service. They actually operated the flight before that. I flew it on a L-1011 in 1991.

Quoting HnlBoi (Reply 81):
what are the trips the SFO based flight attendants are going to have after they cancel the SFO-HNL flight.

DL has SFO based FA's? When I flew it, the crew was LAX based. It was a 2 day trip they called "the death march". FA's flew LAX-HNL-SFO, overnighted in SFO and did the reverse the next day.
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PGNCS
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 84):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 75):
I flew it in December 2006, but it is gone now.

It actually ended in September, but DL brought it back due to good Christmas holiday bookings that probably would have cost them more money to re-route via HNL on GO or AQ. I think DL service to KOA will resume, but it will likely be on an ETOPs 752 routed SLC-LAX-KOA and vice-versa.

I did not know that! I should never question you on SLC issues!  Wink
 
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aloha73g
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 85):
DL has SFO based FA's? When I flew it, the crew was LAX based. It was a 2 day trip they called "the death march". FA's flew LAX-HNL-SFO, overnighted in SFO and did the reverse the next day.

I believe DL has opened "Satellite F/A Bases" in a few cities, HNL and SFO included. They are technically LA based, but they can start trips out of SFO and HNL though there are no lounges, supervisors or reserves in these cities. Someone from DL may be able to clarify, but I know that when I flew SFO-HNL about a year ago the F/As were SFO based.

The satellite bases allow F/As who were commuting to start their trips closer to home and probably saves DL a little money on commuters and hotel costs, since most HNL and SFO trips would probably be turns anyway.

-Aloha!
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SESGDL
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 84):

Mostly due to DL picking up and doing something with the customer base from Western. SLC I've read has roughly 10-12 million O&D passengers a year, which is only half to a third as many as you would get in DEN, PHX or LAS. This is why SLC gets all of the knocks that it does and why many question its viability as a hub.

Neither DEN nor PHX is getting 30-36 million O&D yearly passengers. LAS gets, at last check (the numbers are a few years old) around 28 million O&D passengers a year. For a city the size of SLC, 10-12 million O&D passengers is incredible, especially considering larger hubs like CLT and CVG have about half of that. SLC's O&D is very healthy and is perfect for a hub operation the size of DL's. SLC's location is also unbeatable, as it can draw many connections that would be out of the way to DEN, LAS, or PHX. No one questions SLC's stance as a hub except you, who constantly is dismissing SLC's importance in the DL network. O&D is not the only thing that's important with airlines and hubs. DL's ATL hub, while it commands some 26-28 million annual O&D passengers, only has O&D accounting for roughly 25-30% of the airport's traffic, and you will see no airlines in a hurry to leave ATL. SLC's O&D percentage is roughly 55%, which puts it in the realm of high O&D percentage hubs with MSP, JFK, ORD, and LAX (all of whom get around 50% of their traffic from O&D, ORD may be slightly less). SLC is a great hub for O&D, location, and cost factors and will remain as a hub and will continue to grow in the future. I don't know why you must always state something that is disparaging to SLC's position as a DL hub, especially being a SLC native and fellow DL fan.

Jeremy
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 88):
Neither DEN nor PHX is getting 30-36 million O&D yearly passengers. LAS gets, at last check (the numbers are a few years old) around 28 million O&D passengers a year. For a city the size of SLC, 10-12 million O&D passengers is incredible, especially considering larger hubs like CLT and CVG have about half of that. SLC's O&D is very healthy and is perfect for a hub operation the size of DL's. SLC's location is also unbeatable, as it can draw many connections that would be out of the way to DEN, LAS, or PHX. No one questions SLC's stance as a hub except you, who constantly is dismissing SLC's importance in the DL network. O&D is not the only thing that's important with airlines and hubs. DL's ATL hub, while it commands some 26-28 million annual O&D passengers, only has O&D accounting for roughly 25-30% of the airport's traffic, and you will see no airlines in a hurry to leave ATL. SLC's O&D percentage is roughly 55%, which puts it in the realm of high O&D percentage hubs with MSP, JFK, ORD, and LAX (all of whom get around 50% of their traffic from O&D, ORD may be slightly less). SLC is a great hub for O&D, location, and cost factors and will remain as a hub and will continue to grow in the future. I don't know why you must always state something that is disparaging to SLC's position as a DL hub, especially being a SLC native and fellow DL fan.

As much as I'd like to agree with you Jeremy I can't. Back in 2003 there was very serious speculation that UA would have to liquidate, and word is DL executives at the time did have a contingency plan on the table to close the DFW hub then as well as SLC and move to DEN, and expedite part of what they would do a couple of years later. While the O&D numbers might be great for a greater metro area of roughly 2.1 million people, and the percentage of O&D passengers vs. connecting passengers might look healthy, SLC is vulnerable to industry consolidation. And with a state of the art airport on the other side of the Rockies in DEN and larger, faster growing metro areas to the south in LAS and PHX, city and government leaders have understandably been reluctant to sink money into much needed improvements here at SLC. I'm not a disparager as you like to assert, just a realist. SLC has a great geographical location for the western states. But it doesn't have the stand-out population numbers that other Mountain Time Zone locations like DEN and PHX have or the west coast might offer. A bigger aberration to DL having a hub at SLC is the NBA having the Jazz here.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 89):
As much as I'd like to agree with you Jeremy I can't. Back in 2003 there was very serious speculation that UA would have to liquidate, and word is DL executives at the time did have a contingency plan on the table to close the DFW hub then as well as SLC and move to DEN, and expedite part of what they would do a couple of years later. While the O&D numbers might be great for a greater metro area of roughly 2.1 million people, and the percentage of O&D passengers vs. connecting passengers might look healthy, SLC is vulnerable to industry consolidation. And with a state of the art airport on the other side of the Rockies in DEN and larger, faster growing metro areas to the south in LAS and PHX, city and government leaders have understandably been reluctant to sink money into much needed improvements here at SLC. I'm not a disparager as you like to assert, just a realist. SLC has a great geographical location for the western states. But it doesn't have the stand-out population numbers that other Mountain Time Zone locations like DEN and PHX have or the west coast might offer. A bigger aberration to DL having a hub at SLC is the NBA having the Jazz here.

That only applies if DL has the opportunity to move the hub to LAS, DEN, or PHX, which I just can't ever see happening. All three airports are currently duel-hub airports, and it would be difficult for DL to move into any of them as is. Other carriers would also jump on the chance. And DEN isn't all it's cracked up to be, apparently for UA it's not even profitable.

Jeremy
 
fewsolarge
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 90):
duel-hub airports

What an excellent pun!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 90):
And DEN isn't all it's cracked up to be, apparently for UA it's not even profitable.

UA isn't a well run airline is the biggest problem as to why DEN isn't profitable for them, not DEN itself, they have cut costs at the Denver City & County Department of Aviation. Costs at DEN are nearly 40% down of what they were when the DIA site opened in 1995.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
764flyer
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:30 am

Well as a Denver resident I can attest to it being one of THE most user-unfriendly airports in the country if not the world. This doesnt really speak to yields out of DEN as opposed to SLC but I don't think there's a better hub in the country than SLC. You can be anywhere in that airport in 5 mins (talking about DLs operation) it's not 500 miles from the city center like DEN. I'd love a DL hub here in DEN but I think they're much better off in SLC.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 89):
As much as I'd like to agree with you Jeremy I can't. Back in 2003 there was very serious speculation that UA would have to liquidate, and word is DL executives at the time did have a contingency plan on the table to close the DFW hub then as well as SLC and move to DEN, and expedite part of what they would do a couple of years later.

The problem is, you are basing the foundation of your argument on misinformation. The above statement is simply not true. Never happened. Trust me.

Was there a time that some DL network planners looked fondly at DEN? Sure, but that was a long time ago. DEN is a competitive bloodbath these days. SLC looks heavenly in comparison.

SEGDL is correct that SLC serves the intra-west markets in a way that DEN really can't. SLC also has much less LCC competition. WN has never done very well in the market and has stagnated for years. Couple all of that that with the fact that it is so far from everywhere that the local population HAS to fly, and you have the nice basis for a strong hub. It just has to be sized properly, which it is today.

I agree 100% with SEGDL that you are far too hard on SLC. Delta's network folks are pretty big SLC fans these days.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 94):
The problem is, you are basing the foundation of your argument on misinformation. The above statement is simply not true. Never happened. Trust me.

Trust someone who thinks that Leo Mullin and Fred Reid were the greatest leaders for DL?  laughing  Many DL employees have told me otherwise as much as I'd like to believe you. But then again moving to DEN from SLC would have been a huge mistake for DL even though former mayor and USDOT Secretary Federico Pena lobbied them to do so at the inception of the DIA plan for a number of years.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 94):
Was there a time that some DL network planners looked fondly at DEN? Sure, but that was a long time ago.

When SLC proposed a cost ineffective master-plan back in 1998, many did think moving to DEN and even competing with UA might have been the better option. F9 and WN have turned DEN into a highly competitive bloodbath with UA as the Department of Aviation has been able to get costs under control there. Front Range fliers have never had it so good.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 94):
SLC also has much less LCC competition. WN has never done very well in the market and has stagnated for years.

Service to DEN was the first new route they've introduced from SLC in some time. SLC like so many other WN markets reaches a point of stagnation since so many additional fliers don't like being herded onto an a/c like cattle.  laughing  That is also what happens when you get an LCC that purely "cherry-picks" their routes.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 94):
Couple all of that that with the fact that it is so far from everywhere that the local population HAS to fly, and you have the nice basis for a strong hub. It just has to be sized properly, which it is today.

The Wasatch Front population has roughly doubled since Western started a hub operation at SLC in 1981.

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 93):
Well as a Denver resident I can attest to it being one of THE most user-unfriendly airports in the country if not the world. This doesnt really speak to yields out of DEN as opposed to SLC but I don't think there's a better hub in the country than SLC. You can be anywhere in that airport in 5 mins (talking about DLs operation) it's not 500 miles from the city center like DEN. I'd love a DL hub here in DEN but I think they're much better off in SLC.

Try claiming your luggage when some returning LDS missionary has his horde of family there at the base of the escalators to greet them. One crowded mess!  irked  SLC might be a great airport, but it is an ancient and obsolete master-plan that desperately needs an upgrade.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 95):

Trust someone who thinks that Leo Mullin and Fred Reid were the greatest leaders for DL? laughing

Dude, WTF are you talking about? When and where did you get the idea that I thought Mullin and Reid were DL's greatest leaders? I clearly DON'T think that is the case. I will say that Leo Mullin is a fine human being who wasn't the right leader for Delta at the particular moment in history. The way you disparage him is unbecoming and frankly childish.

And unless your "many Delta employees" worked in Network Analysis in 2003, they don't know squat. I'm not going to get into who's sources know more, except to say that I don't need any second or third party sources.

Despite your insistence to the contrary, Delta never spent any significant time or energy considering moving the SLC hub to DEN. Were their hypothetical conversations? Of course, that is what network planners are paid to think about. But it never had any serious consideration. Never. Period. You've single handedly made a mountain out of a mole hill. Congratulations.

On the other hand, there was serious consideration given to moving the DFW hub a few years earlier. What do your sources have to say about that?
 
LawnDart
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 96):
On the other hand, there was serious consideration given to moving the DFW hub a few years earlier. What do your sources have to say about that?

Would you mind divulging where you think DL was giving "serious consideration" on moving the DFW hub to? Riddle me that, and I'll be able to tell if you're full of hot exhaust or not... smile 
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 97):

Would you mind divulging where you think DL was giving "serious consideration" on moving the DFW hub to? Riddle me that, and I'll be able to tell if you're full of hot exhaust or not... smile

I don't mind at all, but I'm anxious to hear what our friend's sources have to say first.
 
777fan
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RE: DL Stopping SFO - HNL Service

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 40):
I hate this flight anyway. Who wants to get into Hawaii at night? Hotels there are expensive!

Talk about a non-sequitor...

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 53):
Not sure which Debbie Downer employees you have talked to, but SLC-HNL is probably one of the most successful routes out of SLC.

One must not forget the UT-HI connections to the Mormon Temple that has been discussed ad nauseum on this site.

Sounds like the right move by DL. While I was opposed to it before, a DL-UA pairing now seems to make more sense in light of this and other moves by both carriers to play to their strengths. Will somebody please save UA?!  crossfingers 


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