WN adds 1x daily PHL-SAT, AUS & 2x daily STL effective March 17th part of 30 new flight additions to the WN system :


http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...eils_new_Philadelphia_flights.html

[Edited 2007-11-07 17:15:10]

Wow. SAT and AUS are not currently served by US from PHL I don't believe. Could this force US to respond, or will they stay idle? And STL is currently an RJ route for both US and AA; does this force US or even AA to go mainline on the route?

How about instead of the title of this thread, we just call it "Southwest Unveils New Flights" and that way we can just put all 30 flights in one thread?

How does that sound? Can someone do that?

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2): How does that sound? Can someone do that?

done!

Does any know any other flights WN ADD tomorrow

US Airways really screwed this one up, although it doesn't surprise me - AUS and SAT are 2 cities not served by US Airways, but should be. So SWA beats them to it.... Good thing SWA doesn't fly to CLT; another city with no NS to AUS or SAT. Maybe this will teach them..... Good job SWA, besides US Airways would probably use a CRJ or E70, now AUS and SAT get mainline. I surely thought with the reduction at PIT, USA would fill the gap in Texas by having nonstop to CLT, PHL, or even both. Way to fill in the network!

A handful of routes will be announced from Denver tomorrow.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): A handful of routes will be announced from Denver tomorrow.

Fantabulous, another route for WN to get their behinds handed to them on. They are not making inroads against F9/UA...at least not yet. F9 does a great job of motivating the local DEN market.

Elephant Rhino, I'm leaving the industry in about two weeks.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 7): Fantabulous, another route for WN to get their behinds handed to them on. They are not making inroads against F9/UA...at least not yet. F9 does a great job of motivating the local DEN market.

Right and WN got handed it to them the first time around too???

Good to see STL-PHL will be announced, quite surprised to see 2 daily...

Alex

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 8): Right and WN got handed it to them the first time around too???

Well - ish. Despite all their brave words, it hasn't exactly been a bed of roses for Southwest at DEN:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23912_5738266,00.html

"Southwest's load factors - which measure occupancy levels on flights - have been significantly lower than its competitors on many Denver routes.

Between Denver and Las Vegas, for instance, its load factor averaged 68.3 percent for the 12-month period ended in June, according to data provided by The Boyd Group. That compares with 83 percent for both United and Frontier. Its load factor between Denver and Chicago averaged 70 percent for the period, vs. 74 percent for Frontier and 82 percent for United.

Consultant Boyd also says Southwest is struggling to penetrate the Denver market, pointing to Frontier's strong traffic numbers and continued growth."

Thye have also excluded Denver from most of their fare increases. I have no doubt they are determined to make DEN work, however.

mariner

BEGINNING March 8, 2008:

-- Five new daily nonstop roundtrips between San Francisco and Phoenix.
-- Four additional daily nonstop roundtrips between San Francisco and Los
Angeles (for a total of 12 daily).
-- Two additional daily nonstop roundtrips between Dallas Love Field and
Kansas City (for a total of eight daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between New Orleans and
Nashville (for a total of three daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Indianapolis and Tampa
Bay (for a total of two daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Las Vegas and
Indianapolis (for a total of three daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Chicago Midway and Salt
Lake City (for a total of three daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between San Diego and San
Antonio (for a total of two daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between San Diego and Sacramento
(for a total of 14 daily).


BEGINNING March 17, 2008:

-- One new daily nonstop roundtrip between Philadelphia and Austin.
-- One new daily nonstop roundtrip between Philadelphia and San Antonio.
-- Two new daily nonstop roundtrips between Philadelphia and St. Louis


BEGINNING April 4, 2008:

-- Five new daily nonstop roundtrips between Denver and San Diego.


BEGINNING April 17, 2008:

-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Dallas Love Field and El
Paso (for a total of seven daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Las Vegas and Burbank
(for a total of 14 daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Las Vegas and El Paso
(for a total of three daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Las Vegas and Sacramento
(for a total of nine daily).

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071108/lath118.html?.v=62

Not bad..but 12 DAILY SFO-LAX?!?!

Alex

Interesting. I was expecting a couple of more routes from DEN. Perhaps in the next round.

I was expecting MDW to get more routes. We just got one added frequency.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10): Not bad..but 12 DAILY SFO-LAX?!?!

   That is a lot. Don't they run the same amount of frequencies between MDW-STL and MDW-LAS??

Quoting M992910 (Reply 5): I surely thought with the reduction at PIT, USA would fill the gap in Texas by having nonstop to CLT, PHL, or even both. Way to fill in the network!

SWA obviously got the jump on US with this announcement. US can't wait much longer to tie San Antonio and Austin with the eastern part of the network - probably by next spring as well.

Found a couple of unannounced extras

PVD gets extra sat only nonstops to MCO and TPA
PVD-MCO 7x on sat
PVD-TPA 4x on sat

I found another one.

MSY-BWI: 1 extra Sat. only nonstop (total of 2)
MSY-MDW: 1 extra Sat. only nonstop (total of 2)
MSY-FLL: 1 extra Sat. only nonstop (total of 2)

[Edited 2007-11-08 08:33:44]

How are you guys finding this? Just going to southwest,com and checking the time tables?

Alex

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 16): How are you guys finding this? Just going to southwest,com and checking the time tables? Alex

I looked through the PDFs starting in mid march

Some FLL Saturday Changes:

- BWI 6x
- MHT Sat Only Added
- MDW 7x
- ISP 4x
- BNA 3x
- MSY 2x
- STL 2x

Totals 8 new Saturday Flights

Will be a total of 51 Saturday Flights

[Edited 2007-11-08 09:06:42]

Quoting Shadez (Reply 18): They will also be doing FLL-MHT Sat. Only

MHT BDL and ALB each also got extra sat only MCO and TPA

MCO saturdays:
PVD 7x
MHT 6x
BDL 4x
ALB 4x

TPA saturdays:
PVD 4x
MHT 3x
BDL 3x
ALB 2x

FLL saturdays
PVD 1x (Daily)
MHT 1x sat only

To bad there is no MDW-OKC.

Quoting M992910 (Reply 5): US Airways really screwed this one up, although it doesn't surprise me - AUS and SAT are 2 cities not served by US Airways, but should be

Well, technically not true. They don't fly EAST from those cities, but they are old HP destinations with service to PHX and LAS. They should've connected the cities to the eastern network by now IMO. Now that WN has apparently beaten them to it, not sure they will come in from the east, unless it's CLT, which also IMO, they should have already done.

As I have said all along, any new growth at BNA would be frequency additions, not new cities. Typical.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 14): Found a couple of unannounced extras

Another Saturday Only addition (a new route which I've been expecting and will hopefully go daily soon):
SAN-SLC!
(There must be more of these; checking the route map is the best way to find new routes, anyway.)

SAN came out of this announcement in nice shape (and underplayed, naturally). I haven't checked the schedules in detail yet to see if anything has been dropped, but if not, we gained 7 flights and 1 new destination (DEN) plus a Sat Only to SLC. I am very glad to see them listen to me (   ) and finally get SAN-DEN going; I knew it had to be close to being a done deal!

The SAN-SMF flight gain is a "cheap" one as we currently have 14 flts/day but it decreases to 13, I think in February, and now we get it back in March... I don't really know what that's all about but no big deal in the long run I guess.

With this new April schedule, Lindbergh should be right at about 109 flights (!) and I have a feeling they will have some additional real estate by then since 10 gates (their current number) would be VERY busy handling this number of departures. I therefore see further growth for WN at Lindbergh Field (and applaud them for it!)

bb

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 21): Well, technically not true. They don't fly EAST from those cities, but they are old HP destinations with service to PHX and LAS. They should've connected the cities to the eastern network by now IMO. Now that WN has apparently beaten them to it, not sure they will come in from the east, unless it's CLT, which also IMO, they should have already done.

Well they did beat US. Who wants to fly from the East across the country to PHX or LAS only to fly half way back? Unless you're a mileage runner, I do not think anyone would. Just my opinion.

Wow. No new PIT flights. I thought we'd get at least 2 more flights.

-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Indianapolis and Tampa
Bay (for a total of two daily).
-- One additional daily nonstop roundtrip between Las Vegas and
Indianapolis (for a total of three daily).

cool, but do we really need more to LAS  

Do you think more SMF flights will be added? I was hoping for routes like SMF-DEN and SMF-HOU... what are some good routes that WN could make a profit on out of SMF?

Quoting SANFan (Reply 23): With this new April schedule, Lindbergh should be right at about 109 flights (!) and I have a feeling they will have some additional real estate by then since 10 gates (their current number

And where might the additional real estate come from? United likely won't budge....certainly not to allow Southwest room to start Denver flights. Maybe they can push Alaska out.

Wow not one additional flight out of PDX or SEA.......

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 28): certainly not to allow Southwest room to start Denver flights.

I cant wait for the day when im working WN DEN flts out of 11-13......ahah it could be in the future who knows

Also seeing MCO-OMA Saturday only too.

Quoting SAN88 (Reply 30): I cant wait for the day when im working WN DEN flts out of 11-13......ahah it could be in the future who knows

Maybe in 2012 if United moves to the new wing of Terminal 2 and if construction ever begins!

Quoting D328 (Reply 24): Who wants to fly from the East across the country to PHX or LAS only to fly half way back? Unless you're a mileage runner, I do not think anyone would. Just my opinion.

I don't follow here. Can you elaborate on what you're saying? I was pointing out AUS and SAT have been HP cities for years, and that WN's move from both to PHL probably premempted or at least postponed US from doing the same, if they ever planned it at all. I was also saying "if" US decided to fly east from one or both, most likely it would be to CLT. Not sure I get your statement?

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 28): And where might the additional real estate come from? United likely won't budge....certainly not to allow Southwest room to start Denver flights. Maybe they can push Alaska out.

How could they push Alaska out? Does United have any add'l rights to gates at T1 that Alaska doesn't have?

I do agree that Alaska wouldn't mind being at T2 with all of its alliance partners, as well as FIS facilities, but I really can't see there being space for any of their ~14 flights.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 34): How could they push Alaska out?

By "they," I was referring to WN, not UA.

But to answer your question, I have no idea what details are in the leases between the airlines and the Airport Authority.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 8): Good to see STL-PHL will be announced, quite surprised to see 2 daily...

It's probably to link PHL with DAL as STL is the only one-stop destination currently between those cities.

Quoting SJC4Me (Reply 36): It's probably to link PHL with DAL as STL is the only one-stop destination currently between those cities.

Not true. WN already flies PHL-HOU which allows for one stop to DAL. SAT and AUS will add two additional one stop options.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 34): How could they push Alaska out? Does United have any add'l rights to gates at T1 that Alaska doesn't have? I do agree that Alaska wouldn't mind being at T2 with all of its alliance partners, as well as FIS facilities, but I really can't see there being space for any of their ~14 flights.

At Lindbergh Field, IF WN flows into the West Rotunda in T1 (gates 11-18, currently home to AC, AS and UA) I imagine it would be a "shared/space available" arrangement. I don't know exactly what kind of lease stipulations are in effect so I don't know if a carrier can say, "Nobody will use OUR gates when they are empty!", or if the Airport folks can tell all tenants that, due to the crowded environment, there WILL be multi-carrier use...

We also need to keep in mind that we now have to find room for Virgin (2 gates, I hope   ) so, as predicted, the place continues to get more and more cramped and the 10 new gates at T2W are still years away.

I can only assume that the SDCRAA will do all possible to find space for WN to continue their amazing expansion at Lindbergh! As far as I can tell, there are very few quick fixes but more flights mean more income for the airport. There certainly isn't any growth at SAN by the legacies (I can count on one hand recent new routes/flights started by UA, AA, CO, DL, NW, AS other than seasonal adjustments) and B6 and FL expansion is nothing compared to what WN has brought to our city in the last couple of years. So I say if the Airport can, and ends up ticking off UA and/or AS in order to keep WN happy and growing, so be it!

Speaking of AS and their 14 flights, THREE GATES?!? Is AS paying for 3 gates just to keep WN from grabbing any of them? And then there's AC forced to be at the mercy of UA for gates... It seems to me gate 18 should be usable by AC and WN (and what the heck, AS overflow too.)

The pilot project for CUTE facilities (counters and gates) should be underway (and completed?) soon and I see that being the (near) future solution to at least some of the overcrowding there.

By the way, SAN was not highlighted at all in this WN announcement (as were, for example, the "new cities" of DEN, PHL and SFO) but Lindbergh received the second greatest number of new flights on this expansion, 7, behind only SFO (with 9 new flights.) It's interesting that WN perhaps wants to keep "their" SAN kind of below the radar...

bb

I see it like this at BNA (since i've had time to stew about it), we may have not got any new cities out of this but we continue to see added growth with their Focus City here. That's great news any way you cut it! We have not seen a decrease in service on WN for a while at BNA and that bodes well for the Focus operations here and for the airport! Here's to more success at BNA!

Quoting PITops (Reply 25): Wow. No new PIT flights. I thought we'd get at least 2 more flights.

I guess they're thinking it's still too early?? I dunno...

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 35): By "they," I was referring to WN, not UA. But to answer your question, I have no idea what details are in the leases between the airlines and the Airport Authority.

That's who I was referring to, as well.

At any rate, however, I did some quick calculations using this press release along with other information found on WN's website, and found that Southwest gets by with higher average flights/gate at stations other than SAN. While SAN's number will soon be something like 10.5, LAX's is well over 11, and Oakland's is a whopping 13+.

Although Oakland probably benefits from a more effective terminal design, LAX is still pretty hard to move around. Even with these new additions, WN has the capacity (no pun intended) to make it work.

wow...5 new flights for Phoenix... been a while since they've given us that much new attention  

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 28): And where might the additional real estate come from? United likely won't budge....certainly not to allow Southwest room to start Denver flights. Maybe they can push Alaska out.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32): Quoting SAN88 (Reply 30): I cant wait for the day when im working WN DEN flts out of 11-13......ahah it could be in the future who knows Maybe in 2012 if United moves to the new wing of Terminal 2 and if construction ever begins!

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 35): But to answer your question, I have no idea what details are in the leases between the airlines and the Airport Authority.

Well sooner than later, if expansion continues, something will have to change. I have heard things...mostly rumors. There is even a joke at the station level that a new gate will have to be built on Harbor Drive. I wouldn't rule anything out.  

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 41): At any rate, however, I did some quick calculations using this press release along with other information found on WN's website, and found that Southwest gets by with higher average flights/gate at stations other than SAN. While SAN's number will soon be something like 10.5, LAX's is well over 11, and Oakland's is a whopping 13+.

That is true. And when I was at SJC it was somewhere around 12 flights per gate per day. At that time, the folks at SJC considered it to be the highest gate utilization in the system. Looks like OAK has that beat. Hearing from co-workers that temped at OAK last year, 13 flights per gate takes a bit of a toll on the operation.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 41): Although Oakland probably benefits from a more effective terminal design, LAX is still pretty hard to move around. Even with these new additions, WN has the capacity (no pun intended) to make it work.

That brings up another good point. WN's terminal at SAN is nearing it's limits capacity-wise. Due to the fact that the terminal layout is a rotunda, things get very crowded both upstairs in the terminal, and down on the ramp. Because of that, we have some unique operational challenges. Ever been here when 2-3 cruise ships arrive dropping off thousands of people in a 2-3 hour window??? It gets ugly. If we had to, I'm sure we could push 13 flights per day at each gate, but it certainly wouldn't be comfortable for us, or our customers.

Throw in a delay or two with a thirty-plus minute early flight, and at that kind of utilization I could see up to three planes on the ground for the same gate...yikes!

[Edited 2007-11-09 02:40:50]

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 41): At any rate, however, I did some quick calculations using this press release along with other information found on WN's website, and found that Southwest gets by with higher average flights/gate at stations other than SAN. While SAN's number will soon be something like 10.5, LAX's is well over 11, and Oakland's is a whopping 13+.

Trvlr, unfortunately those City Fact Sheets on the WN website are badly out-of-date. Using the flight counts in the new (current) WN Flight Schedule dated 11/04/07, both OAK and LAX are right at 11.1 flights/gate; WN-OAK actually has 13 gates (#s 20-32) and 144 flights while WN-LAX operates 122 flights thru their 11 gates. With 109 flts at 10 gates, SAN's gate usage is 10.9. The only airport with a higher flt:gate ratio than 11 is PIT (officially 2 gates and 24 flts) but just now checking the on-line PIT flt departure board, I see flts departing from gates A1, A3 and A5...

I really dont think WN can (or will) operate at higher than 11 flts/gate. What we are seeing now from WN at these really maxed out airports is the cancellation of surplus frequency or poorly performing routes to make room for new flights. This happened at OAK (they lost 4 flts in the Nov schedules "adjustment"), at LAX (down 6 flts) and SAN (losing 2 flights); of course LAX has gained the 12 SFO flights (and will maybe lose another few flts early next year) and SAN has regained those 2 lost flts and then some. It doesn't look like OAK has gained much lately but then I imagine they will continue to have bits of pull-down as WN-SFO increases its presence. (And I'm sure there will be new routes opening up at OAK soon.)

I've created gate-usage charts for WN at SAN and I can see how tight things get with even 10 flts/gate and all it takes is one or two ground holds or wx or mx delays and you've got a real mess on your hands! There are times during the day when things are relatively dead but it's not always possible for Scheduling/Planning to work new flights into those slack periods due to the other stations involved, provisioning, staffing, a/c availability, etc.

I must say however that maybe with the new gate designs and check-in procedures being implimented by WN, perhaps they will be able to shorten the entire pre-board/check-in process and squeeze another flight or two out of each gate! If anyone can do it, it's our friends in Dallas...

bb

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 7): I'm leaving the industry in about two weeks.

Where u off to?

I'm very pleased to see Manchester-Ft. Lauderdale. While service to Orlando and Tampa have been good from here--I'd almost say we have more than enough lift to Orlando--we've had nothing to eastern Florida. While MHT-FLL is a Saturday-only flight, I think it's a near certainty that it will eventually go daily (a la PVD). The gating issue isn't demand, it's aircraft availability.

Chris in NH

I only see one additional flight out of BWI to FLL (on a Saturday). So that is it for BWI? Did BWI lose any flights or will lose any flights next few months?

I'm curious, the FLL, MCO and TPA stations seemed to gain a lot of Saturday flights -- does this mean they're more busy on Saturdays than other days of the week? Or there's good number of no flights on Saturdays that allow them to handles Saturday-Only flights?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9): Between Denver and Las Vegas, for instance, its load factor averaged 68.3 percent for the 12-month period ended in June, according to data provided by The Boyd Group. That compares with 83 percent for both United and Frontier. Its load factor between Denver and Chicago averaged 70 percent for the period, vs. 74 percent for Frontier and 82 percent for United.

Kind of off topic here...but, aren't they really comparing apples to oranges here (at least on the Las Vegas routes)? UA and F9 are getting a lot of connecting traffic on that route whereas WN is more than likely all DEN O&D traffic.

bcoz

Quoting Bcoz (Reply 48): UA and F9 are getting a lot of connecting traffic on that route whereas WN is more than likely all DEN O&D traffic.

I really don't know enough about Southwest to say, but I assume that part of the reason for their previous expansion at DEN is to drive more connecting traffic through there.

It's also tough for me to imagine that this present expansion DEN-SAN by both Southwest and Frontier - with over 800 seats a day coming on to the route - is driven entirely by DEN O&D.

I could easily be wrong, but in the end I'm not sure how much it matters.

mariner