Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
BA777
Posts: 2052
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:40 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:50 am

Probably a good decision to go to DXB, it's roughly on the great circle route, halfway along the way and if the problem happened 4 hours in, by the time the checklists are done and they come to making a decision it's easier to go to DXB.

A big international airport, A380 maintenance, connections to London, long runways etc.
 
keuleatr72
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:30 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:08 am

Am I mistaken or wasn´t VH-OQC in LH maintenance in FRA during the grounding of QF last week?
 
nclmedic
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:25 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:22 am

Quoting BA777 (Reply 50):
A big international airport, A380 maintenance, connections to London, long runways etc.

But seems like lengthy delay caused by having QF's own engineers flying out from Oz?
 
BA777
Posts: 2052
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:40 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:48 am

Fair point! Or you get RR engineers from the UK or SQ from SIN perhaps, for a nice price I'm sure
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:24 am

Quoting BA777 (Reply 53):
Fair point! Or you get RR engineers from the UK or SQ from SIN perhaps, for a nice price I'm sure

So what does power by the hour include if it does not include a fix when you have an IFSD?

I am lost over the issue of how engine maintenance for the engines of QF is done. Who by, where, when and under what conditions?

The matter might (or might not) appear a bit complex for the RB211s but supposedly the T900s are power by the hour. So what does this mean when the stuff hits the fan, or in this case, when nothing hits the fan but it has to be left to windmill?
 
Airvan00
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:40 am

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 51):
Am I mistaken or wasn´t VH-OQC in LH maintenance in FRA during the grounding of QF last week?

Yes you are. It was VH-OQE that was, and still is in FRA. The "C" checks usually take about 3 weeks.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:57 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 7):

Is it common to go into a holding pattern that far from the airport?

If you're dumping fuel, yes. It's not good for departing or arriving aircraft to fly through a fuel vapour cloud.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 29):
However, I will say this. Why do these problems always happen to QANTAS?

You're assuming they don't happen to other people. The combination of A380 + QANTAS means instant media coverage for even the most benign issues.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):
So what does power by the hour include if it does not include a fix when you have an IFSD?

It includes a fix when you have an IFSD, unless QANTAS has an absolutely bizarre power-by-the-hour arrangement.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):
I am lost over the issue of how engine maintenance for the engines of QF is done. Who by, where, when and under what conditions?

I have no details of the exact QF contract but, with power-by-the-hour, scheduled checks (oil level check and oil filling, visual inspections) are usually done by the airline's maintenance crew at each base (which could be their own people or MRO contractors). Unplanned maintenance, engine swaps, preventative maintenance, upgrades, etc. would belong to whoever is providing the power-by-the-hour service.

Tom.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:11 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 56):
I have no details of the exact QF contract but, with power-by-the-hour, scheduled checks (oil level check and oil filling, visual inspections) are usually done by the airline's maintenance crew at each base (which could be their own people or MRO contractors).

Thank for that tds. So we can assume that CASA will be looking at the relationship of the engine failures to who did the last inspection before they took off.

I know of two out of SIN (in a year) and two out of LAX a while ago. Presumably CASA will give an account of this to the Senate when they appear. One presume that those checks would not have been by QF staff otherwise they would not being going on about it as they do.

Presumably after the diversion, that should have been RR called in to fix whatever the problem was - and find Stephen Fry's wallet it appears!
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24206
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:45 pm

Quoting BA777 (Reply 50):
A big international airport, A380 maintenance, connections to London, long runways etc.

I've noted in threads that SQ often diverts to DXB too... There seems to be the facilities needed for repairs.

I do find it interesting that hotel space was at a premium in Dubai...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):
So what does power by the hour include if it does not include a fix when you have an IFSD?

I wondered about that too...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 58):
Thank for that tds. So we can assume that CASA will be looking at the relationship of the engine failures to who did the last inspection before they took off.

Something seems to be up with QF and their Trent 900s. Whatever the difference is... it needs to be found and fixed ASAP.

Lightsaber
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 44):
Recently one of my company's A320s diverted after an engine failure during cruise...another diverted due to cargo fire warning, 3 medical diversions, 1 aircraft had to execute an immediate re-land upon rotation due to smoke in cabin and panicky pax, a rejected take off 5 kts below V1, a go around at 20 ft due to wind-shear (wheels impacted ground) ....all of the above occurred in the vicinity of DXB...and not even one of the above said incidents (including a B777 engine failure on rotation) even made it into the local daily rag    .... a QANTAS A380 has a controlled IFSD & lands in DXB and its headlines everywhere!

You are correct, but this is the A380. Anything happening to the A380 will cause a thread to be opened and will be heavily debated. We will probably have threads here about A380's having to switch a light bulb every once is while.  .

But it also is proof for the fact that the A380 has by far the highest profile in the mind of the general public, and certainly has it here on A-net.   That is why we sometimes over-discuss issues to death here when it comes to the A380.  .
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:41 pm

A little update.

The crew are still in the transit hotel and have been given no info.

Oodles of pax milling about not been given any info either.

There was actually a CASA inspector on the flight assessing the tech crew ops.
 
packersfan
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:32 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:58 pm

By the sound of the difficulties with sorting out 258 pax, perhaps it was a little lucky they weren't having to deal with a full load.
 
nutsaboutplanes
Posts: 545
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:37 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 59):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):So what does power by the hour include if it does not include a fix when you have an IFSD?

I have seen several different "power by the hour" agreements at a couple of different carriers.....they seem to differ dramatically. At a carrier where I previously worked, the agreement was that all MX would be completed by the carrier including sub-contracting at non-mx stations. Once the total cost of the mx was determined, the itemized bill would be submitted for reimbursement by the manufacturer....in this case, GE.

The logistics in this case was up to the airline but the cost was somewhat of a non-issue as it was reimbursed generally without question. What the agreement did not cover was the cost of PAX rerouting and accommodation....I would imagine that QF will eat the pax related costs but will likely be reimbursed in full for the physical mx on the engine.

I would still like to know if there is any recovery of revenue after an aircraft is taken out of service and out of the revenue generating rotation due to an engine failure that is covered under a "power by the hour" agreement.......this I am not sure about.
 
Okie
Posts: 4265
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:12 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
Something seems to be up with QF and their Trent 900s. Whatever the difference is... it needs to be found and fixed ASAP


The linked article indicates "low oil" or oil loss.
While this could be something as simple as a loose fitting, part or bad sensor, the history has been that "oil loss" has been an indicator of the seal failure from previous events with the Trent 900's
I am not sure that RR or QF would attempt the seal repair in the field and QF would ask for an engine change if that was the issue.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 56):
The combination of A380 + QANTAS means instant media coverage for even the most benign issues.


As far as the A380 in the last 40 years anything from a 152 up has been 747 as far as the media is concerned, I guess Airbus gets its turn in the barrel.

Okie
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting okie (Reply 63):
While this could be something as simple as a loose fitting, part or bad sensor, the history has been that "oil loss" has been an indicator of the seal failure from previous events with the Trent 900's

Big question is "was this (or should this have been) evident at inspection in Singapore"?

If CASA gives stats it may indicate why QF seems to be having a lot of engine problems and provide an independent assessment of the ever-so-long standing claim of QF engineers that at least some outsourced work has been of lower standard.

Just from a simplicity of responsibility point of view you would have to wonder if having three major parties involved was not a recipe for failures. In this case, QF, RR and someone acting for QF but in the end responsible in a sort of way to RR.

And reality could well be more complex than that.

Makes you wonder if the old legend about the way Merpati carried out its maintenance had some lessons. It was rumoured that the engineer doing the inspections for Merpati had to fly the next leg after his inspection to give him an extra stake in the safety of the aircraft.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 62):
I would still like to know if there is any recovery of revenue after an aircraft is taken out of service and out of the revenue generating rotation due to an engine failure that is covered under a "power by the hour" agreement.......this I am not sure about.

Thanks for all the information. It helps in what seems to be close to an information free zone!

About the only thing certain is that Barnoldswick will have an extra supply of chips this week, freshly spat ones too!
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:49 am

Qantas 747 engine failures raised at Senate inquiry

Quote:
In the figures I have been shown, there was one serious failure in a Qantas RB211 engine in 2008, and in 2009 there two, one before and one after the transfer of their heavy maintenance to Hong Kong.

In 2010 there were four failures, including one notably severe incident to a flight leaving San Francisco for Sydney. In this year so far there have been five such RB211 incidents, the most recent being to a Qantas flight after departure from Bangkok last month, and the most recent example affecting another airline being to a Cathay Pacific flight after departing Paris, also in October.

From Ben Sandilands Plane Talking blog

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...failures-raised-at-senate-inquiry/

But lets not single out RR, there was a Pratt 747 uncontained failure on a 747 last week and CF6's had a disk separation issues last year that resulted in FAA action

All manufacutrere aging products seem to b suffering from these issues, I believe a CF6 on a 767 had a spectacular on camera disintegration on an engine test run at an airport where debris just missed a taxing NZ 747
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:57 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 65):
BoeingVista

That looks awfully like "OUCH".
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:54 am

The aircraft has now left DXB carrying only the crew and operating as a ferry flight. It is due into LHR at approx 13:15L
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:57 am

Quoting bastew (Reply 67):
The aircraft has now left DXB carrying only the crew and operating as a ferry flight. It is due into LHR at approx 13:15L

Are you able to get any more information as to exactly what the problem was?
 
bastew
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:47 pm

Actually in the end the QF31D also carried some pax. It has an ETA of 15:00 into LHR terminal 3. Boeingvista i'll certainly ask my mate when she is back on terra firma to see if i can get any more info.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 11396
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 39):
As I said earlier it is curious to the point of suspicion that these engine related incidents seem to only be experienced by QANTAS with other RR operators not having the same issues.

So in a general sense that should mean that the engines and the OEM are not the problem, next we shoudl like at the carrier and those responsible for their maintenance, obvious choice.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):
I am lost over the issue of how engine maintenance for the engines of QF is done. Who by, where, when and under what conditions?

I think the primary issue other than safety is cost, much cheaper than being done by the airline itself.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:10 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 70):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):
I am lost over the issue of how engine maintenance for the engines of QF is done. Who by, where, when and under what conditions?

I think the primary issue other than safety is cost, much cheaper than being done by the airline itself.

I guess I don't need to point out that it does not require many "WOOOPS" such as this one to make whatever it is they are doing more expensive than some other possible options?

Anyone care to estimate an episode cost for this little exercise? Then you need to produce a nominal figure for the reputation cost. Probably best in doing that last to use about mid 2010 as a benchmark as the Nancy Bird excursion reset the value of reliability for QF.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 11396
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:28 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 71):
I guess I don't need to point out that it does not require many "WOOOPS" such as this one to make whatever it is they are doing more expensive than some other possible options?

Nope, but unfortunately its not the way the bean counters work and how their numbers are used.
Example, some airlines to reduce cost of fuel have a/c departing with legal amounts of fuel but may "suggest" to pilots that they take very little excess, since 95% of the flights never need to divert or hold for more than the legal requirement due to bad weather etc. Such savings are seen by management on the books monthly and bonuses are given, the fact that one diversion wipes out the savings is not seen since it is booked elsewhere.
You should know that I am not an accountant so have no clue what I'm talking about  
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

RE: QF31 A380 Diverted To DXB Due To Engine Problem

Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:06 am

Problem reported on another website to be broken lock wire that allowed nut to unscrew and oil to drain, they refilled the oil replaced the wire and were off on their way.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos