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mikey72
Topic Author
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G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:38 pm

Does anybody know of any graphics recreations of the BA 747 that missed the Penta Hotel by 12 feet (jesus) during a go-around at LHR ?

(21 Nov '89 BAH - LHR)

I know it was a combination of factors (they always are) but I would like any info anyone might have ??

Thanks.

g-awno
 
dougbr2006
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:48 pm

I remember that one I was on the 90 bus going to work from Feltham to Hayes, and the bus was at the bus stop between the perimeter road an the A4. Cloud base was very low and I remember the horrible noise of engines being throttled up and seeing the 747 passing over the bus with the thrust rocking the bus, it sure was low as it came over there, the building at the side of the bus was a BT telephone exchange if I remember rightly. Thank god he throttled up when he did or is would have been one hell of a mess.
 
1stfl94
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:41 pm

The pilot of this aircraft was later stripped of captaincy and committed suicide a few years later after being found negligent.
 
 
raffik
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:50 pm

 
kaitak
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm

There was a very good article in Pilot magazine, I think around 1994, but you may be able to get it on the Internet.

Basically, both the FO and FE fell ill due to food poisoning and poor Capt. Stewart had to land the aircraft himself, in poor visibility. Everything went against him that day, but unfortunately, it is true to say that the aircraft came far too close to disaster than it should have.
 
bennett123
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:39 pm

iirc, he confused the lights from the M4 with the runway lights.

Given that the motorway is quite close to the Airport and parralel, it is probably not as crazy as it sounds.

As you say, a sad business.
 
ZKCIF
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:00 pm

Actually, in Russian "gawno" (transcribed) stands for "shit". they should have contacted linguists before issuing this reg
 
Max Q
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 2):



The pilot of this aircraft was later stripped of captaincy and committed suicide a few years later after being found negligent.

If you had done some proper research on this incident you would know there was far more to it than 'pilot negligence'



A combination of a crew fighting illness, managements contributing to the pressure to continue with a waiver for the conditions which was not appropriate considering the FO's experience and other factors all played a part.



Sadly the only victim here was the Captain who was scapegoated in the most irresponsible fashion.
 
JohnJ
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:31 am

Isn't the famed Heathrow Renaissance Hotel the hotel in question here, formerly the Heathrow Penta?
 
AR385
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:53 am

I have a few questions:

1. If both the FO and second FO were incapacitated due to GI illness, why did the flight continue on to LHR?
2. Why was the approach so poorly executed and managed, that they dropped below minima?
3. Why is there so much hoopla about the Captain being blamed? He did after all made the decision to continue flight and performed an unstabilized, poor, risky approach?
4. What exactly is BA´s policy towards its cockpit crew when they screw up, seen as how this poor person committed suicide and Peter Burkill (of the 777 crash landing fame) was also encouraged to resign?
 
jetblast
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting dougbr2006 (Reply 1):

Anyone know approximately where the current location of the Penta Hotel is? I believe I know of the bus stop you're speaking of, right across the A4 from High Street Harlington...there's a Holiday Inn there now.
 
bthebest
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:01 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 8):
If you had done some proper research on this incident you would know there was far more to it than 'pilot negligence'

he was purely quoting the facts
 
Max Q
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:07 am

Quoting bthebest (Reply 12):

he was purely quoting the facts

He did not.



Every Accident or Incident comes at the end of a chain of events. If you disregard this chain and only judge
the final outcome you have achieved nothing.



Furthermore you are likely to have a repeat of the same problem.
 
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747classic
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:25 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
If both the FO and second FO were incapacitated due to GI illness, why did the flight continue on to LHR?

BA operated their 747 classics with a dedicated F/E and not a second F/O.

Are any Official reports about this event available ?
 
mikey72
Topic Author
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:35 am

Oh look guys now and then TSHTF, machines and people and all that. Fact of life. Certainly not the fault of anyone.

The thing that sticks in my mind is the ''12 feet'' ! Man that's straight out of tinsel town, that's why I wondered if there were any graphics etc

Kind of reminds me of that scene in Casino Royale at MIA. (do engines really glow red like that ??)

[Edited 2011-11-23 01:36:39]
 
bthebest
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:01 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
Quoting bthebest (Reply 12):

he was purely quoting the facts

He did not.

To be fair, 1stfl94 was purely stating the outcome of the pilot in question - not making any comment on the incident itself - so the facts he presented were the ones relevant to the point he was making.
 
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lgw340
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:03 am

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19891121-1

This states 'the pilot had difficulty getting the autopilot to lock on to the ILS. At that time the aircraft had deviated to the right off the runway 27R centreline'

I understand that safety is paramount but why was he fined £2000 and lost his captain's qualification on the type given the technical issues and nasty fog conditions?

It also says 'In May 1991 the captain was convicted of negligently endangering his aircraft and passengers'

So I assume that despite the awful visibility and ILS issues, he was still at fault in quite a large way?
 
thls06169
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:00 pm

 
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Crosswind
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:51 pm

And a Flight International article about the incident.

Interestingly it explains why there was no AAIB investigation, which is something that I find quite worrying given what happened to the Captain and the rest of the crew, which was all down to an internal BA investigation and a legal prosecution.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1991/1991%20-%201236.html

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
EGGD
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:50 pm

I seem to remember there being something digitally created to show the flight path taken by the aircraft, however where to find it remains a mystery. It seems like an unfortunate event that could happen to anybody, put in the situation that Captain Stewart was in how many could say their actions would have resulted in a better outcome? It does seem rather incredible that the AAIB did not investigate even if it lacked resources at the time, surely there could have been some sort of retrospective investigation using the information available? It wasn't as if there was any time pressure on looking at most of the evidence besides the crew's testimony of the events while it was still fresh in the memory.

I'm surprised that BALPA were unable to provide the accused with suitable defence as considering the circumstances I believe the charges brought about were very harsh on Stewart. After all, the aircraft did eventually make it to it's intended destination safely.
 
vs773er
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 5):

There was a very good article in Pilot magazine, I think around 1994, but you may be able to get it on the Internet.

Basically, both the FO and FE fell ill due to food poisoning and poor Capt. Stewart had to land the aircraft himself, in poor visibility. Everything went against him that day, but unfortunately, it is true to say that the aircraft came far too close to disaster than it should have.


http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...0529-true-story-2.html#post4538047
 
EGGD
Posts: 11884
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:06 pm

Quoting VS773ER (Reply 21):
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...0529-true-story-2.html#post4538047

Thank you for posting this, sobering reading.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting jetblast (Reply 11):
Anyone know approximately where the current location of the Penta Hotel is? I believe I know of the bus stop you're speaking of, right across the A4 from High Street Harlington...there's a Holiday Inn there now.
Penta hotel

Click on image for larger picture.

I remember this,worked at LHR 1975-1993 a few hundred yards away in Newall Rd.

As an aside the other scary thing I saw was the evening Concorde arrival forced to reject landing on 27R as an
Air Malta was still in place. He went over the top with full afterburners going and the noise was incredible,never forgot that experience.  
 
babybus
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:28 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 23):
Click on image for larger picture.

So the old Penta Hotel is now called the Renaissance?

He must have had doubts about his own involvement in the incident to go and commit suicide. Anyone else would conclude that they got the plane down safely despite having autopilot problems.

I always thought that old 747s used to carry a spare crew on such long haul sectors.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11884
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:35 pm

I do not believe that he had 'doubts', more likely he was a proud Captain who had devoted almost all the adult years of his life to the safe, comfortable and efficient operation of British Airways aircraft. To then be solely blamed for the incident (not even an accident) in a criminal enquiry and then be publicly chastised by the very company who you had worked so tirelessly to please must have been soul destroying.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:11 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 24):
So the old Penta Hotel is now called the Renaissance?

Indeed, in my time hotels would change hands and names 2 or 3 times over 10 years or so.
 
1stfl94
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:33 am

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:00 pm

Quoting bthebest (Reply 16):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
Quoting bthebest (Reply 12):

he was purely quoting the facts

He did not.

To be fair, 1stfl94 was purely stating the outcome of the pilot in question - not making any comment on the incident itself - so the facts he presented were the ones relevant to the point he was making.

Thank you, I was only describing the outcome of the incident. The pilot was found negligent by the courts, whether or not he should have been is another matter entirely and I'm not qualified to debate that.
 
Max Q
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:14 am

Quoting EGGD (Reply 25):



I do not believe that he had 'doubts', more likely he was a proud Captain who had devoted almost all the adult years of his life to the safe, comfortable and efficient operation of British Airways aircraft. To then be solely blamed for the incident (not even an accident) in a criminal enquiry and then be publicly chastised by the very company who you had worked so tirelessly to please must have been soul destroying.

I could not agree more.
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:53 am

Quoting EGGD (Reply 25):
I do not believe that he had 'doubts', more likely he was a proud Captain who had devoted almost all the adult years of his life to the safe, comfortable and efficient operation of British Airways aircraft. To then be solely blamed for the incident (not even an accident) in a criminal enquiry and then be publicly chastised by the very company who you had worked so tirelessly to please must have been soul destroying.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
I could not agree more.

Me too. I'm not sure though how you would ever be able to recalibrate your mind to flying after an incident like that. Poor chap. Same goes for the 777 incident. I would imagine it feels like your whole career being spent in about 10 seconds of ''this is gonna go one way or the other'' !
 
AR385
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:06 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 29):
Me too. I'm not sure though how you would ever be able to recalibrate your mind to flying after an incident like that. Poor chap. Same goes for the 777 incident. I would imagine it feels like your whole career being spent in about 10 seconds of ''this is gonna go one way or the other'' !

In the two cases you cite, BA is always portrayed as the big bad wolf.

Having read Peter´s and Maria´s Burkill book, I will agree that he had nothing to do with the incident, but the whole mess afterwards was due to his own fault and his and his wive´s poor decisions. Maybe BA did not behave as ethically as it should have with Burkill, but he sure did help them get rid of him. And yes, on a thread out here from a year or two ago I defended him very strongly. Until I read his book...

On the G-AWNO case, having read the info out there, and the excellente report cited here that´s on PPRUNE, the Captain did take a few very bad decisions. Wether he should have been criminally charged is debatable, but he did not behave competently in my opinion and could have caused a major tragedy. When you are the ultimate authority on board, you have to assume that responsibility even if it means going against the perceived notions of "what the company expects". It´s a double edged sword. If you can´t assume that responsibility, then you better not apply for Captaincy.

I am very sorry for him though, and the family he left behind. But that, too, was his choice.

[Edited 2011-11-26 00:11:57]
 
mikey72
Topic Author
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:24 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):

Well....fatalities = 0.

Job well done in my book.

With a bit of luck the Titanic could of glided past that iceberg by 12 feet and KL could of cleared PA by 12 feet on that awful day in Tenerife. Visibilty seems to be the real culprit.

[Edited 2011-11-26 01:01:22]
 
AR385
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:30 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 31):
Visibilty seems to be the real culprit.

And...bad decisions.

[Edited 2011-11-26 00:30:47]
 
mikey72
Topic Author
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:56 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
And...bad decisions.

Well yes but 'g-awno' didn't plough into the Penta and the crew of 'g-ymmm' performed a miracle.
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
Until I read his book...
AR385...I'll never read Capt. Burkill's book so could I be so bold as to ask you to give a few bullet points from the book that had you change your feelings? If PM is better that's fine...I know this is off topic for this thread.
 
Max Q
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:07 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):

Having read Peter´s and Maria´s Burkill book, I will agree that he had nothing to do with the incident, but the whole mess afterwards was due to his own fault and his and his wive´s poor decisions. Maybe BA did not behave as ethically as it should have with Burkill, but he sure did help them get rid of him. And yes, on a thread out here from a year or two ago I defended him very strongly. Until I read his book...

I have read his book as well and fail to understand how you draw your conclusions. Fact is BA allowed an extremely hostile work environment to exist for CA Burkill after the accident.


Rumours that he 'froze up' at the controls and was incapable of performing his job spread throughout the company and were never corrected by anyone in management.


In fact, if it were not for his calm decisions and judgement the Aircraft would not have even made it to the runway. He allowed the FO to continue flying while he retracted the flaps from 30 to 25 degrees allowing it to glide further and make a completely survivable albeit hard landing.



Granted, he made the decision to resign but this was entirely due to the hostile work environment he was forced to endure, consider the fact he was most likely suffering from PTSD as well and we should all have the greatest compassion for him, I know I did.



After saving hundreds of lives he had to listen to this garbage that no one on the company made any effort to correct.
A thinking Chief Pilot would have not accepted his resignation and got to the bottom of the problem before allowing him to leave.



The proof is in the pudding though. Ba's agreeing to hire him back as a B777 Captain with full back pay pretty much says everything as far as their admitting liability.
 
AR385
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:53 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):
In fact, if it were not for his calm decisions and judgement the Aircraft would not have even made it to the runway. He allowed the FO to continue flying while he retracted the flaps from 30 to 25 degrees allowing it to glide further and make a completely survivable albeit hard landing.

If you read my post again, I am not questioning his skill or his outstanding airmanship during the incident.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):
Granted, he made the decision to resign but this was entirely due to the hostile work environment he was forced to endure, consider the fact he was most likely suffering from PTSD as well and we should all have the greatest compassion for him, I know I did.

I disagree. And since it is my opinion, if you want to discuss the issues, please start a new thread. I will participate, but this is not the thread for that.
 
ba319-131
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Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:21 am

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 9):

Isn't the famed Heathrow Renaissance Hotel the hotel in question here, formerly the Heathrow Penta?

- Correct.

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 23):
I remember this,worked at LHR 1975-1993 a few hundred yards away in Newall Rd.

- Were you in car rental then?
 
Max Q
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 36):

I disagree. And since it is my opinion, if you want to discuss the issues, please start a new thread. I will participate, but this is not the thread for that.

It's a shame you choose to judge him (Ca Burkill) so harshly. I wonder how your mental state would be if you had been the Captain of an Aircraft in a serious accident where you performed flawlessly, cleared of all blame then had to listen to people whispering malicilously behind your back that you were incompetent when you returned to work.



I have nothing but the greatest compassion for Ca Burkill , he did a superb job saving the lives of hundreds of people.




He deserved better and justice was finally served when he was rehired. I wonder how you would have done in similar circumstances ?



There is my opinion.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 38):
There is my opinion.

Great. And I have stated mine.
 
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readytotaxi
Posts: 8047
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RE: G-AWNO BA 747-100 Incident.

Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:42 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 37):
- Were you in car rental then?

Yes, Avis, "We try Harder"
A really good company to work for 20 odd years, but that's another story.  

[Edited 2011-11-29 09:57:56]

[Edited 2011-11-29 09:59:38]

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