OB1504
Posts: 3803
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 31):
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=aloha+...:429,r:2,s:0,i:77&biw=1024&bih=628

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the failure of the Aloha Airlines maintenance program to detect the presence of significant disbonding and fatigue damage which ultimately led to failure of the lap joint a S-10L and the separation of the fuselage upper lobe. Contributing to the accident were the failure of Aloha Airlines management to supervise properly its maintenance force; the failure of the FAA to require Airworthiness Directive 87-21-08 inspection of all the lap joints proposed by Boeing Alert Service Bulletin SB 737-53A1039; and the lack of a complete terminating action (neither generated by Boeing nor required by the FAA) after the discovery of early production difficulties in the B-737 cold bond lap joint which resulted in low bond durability, corrosion, and premature fatigue cracking."

Where does it say the accident happened because the aircraft was old?

Quoting D328 (Reply 39):
Myself as a low hour as in 700ish in a twin/single engine would NEVER want to fly anything unworthy of flight... GIVE the company a break! The pilots are all about safety, they DO NOT WANT TO DIE! If they didn't feel safe they wouldn't go! Get over it people... AA is still safe!

   Especially because if anything happens because of something that could've been caught during the preflight inspection, the pilot-in-command's on the hook for it.

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 40):
In my experience, when the pilots or mechanics are disgruntled, the aircraft would probably be SAFER! If they want to slow down the operation, they aren't going to sabotage it. What they do is go over the aircraft with a fine tooth comb and write up every stinking little discrepancy they can find. The more they write up, the longer the aircraft is out of service for maintenance and/or paperwork.

   AA pilots are simply doing their job and A.net is up in arms.

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 42):
As the AA pilots have demonstrated, all you have to do to shut down an airline is to follow every rule exactly as it's written, all the time, every time.

  
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6461
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 50):
Where does it say the accident happened because the aircraft was old?
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 50):
early production

It would not likely have happened in a later (newer) production B737.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 50):
low bond durability

Nor in one of the same vintage with fewer cycles.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
n737aa
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:00 pm

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
The real issues is that the maintenance budget was cut.

Actually it hasn't been cut YET, but nonetheless the cuts have not been implemented as you would like everyone to believe.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 6):
Two employee groups that aren't happy will hurt opperations.

The mechanics are doing a fine job of keeping the airline going given what they are facing.

Quoting crapper1 (Reply 8):
The media is acting like seat fastners never became loose before.

We find "loose" seats in seat track all the time. But loose in different than not secured.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 12):
I've never heard of a plane being in an accident because it is older.

Aloha
Chalk

I'll leave it at that.....

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 26):
Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 24):
I happen to class the above as a serious incident being that in the event of a rejected takeoff, turbulence or a runway excursion the passengers in that row of seats could face serious injuries or worse. Not to mention the fact that loose seats could present a serious obstacle in evacuating the aircraft should something more serious have happened.

I happen to think that you're seriously exaggerating the severity of this incident. Yes, this is something that shouldn't have happened, but this was not a direct impact to flight safety, nor was this potentially dangerous for the entire aircraft involved.

Actually it is quite serious for the reasons scarebus03 mentions. It is a safety of flight issue plain and simple.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 28):
they needed rigorous additional maintenance to bring the craft up to their new owners' standards.

I see plenty of corrosion on all aircraft that come in for check that has been flying for their usual 5 years between heavy C check. Its part of the business. The aircraft are designed to withstand it. As far as bringing the aircraft upto the new operators "standards", that just a syncing of the maintenance programs for the most part.

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 41):
There seems to be alot of ignorance here about who and what an Aircraft Mechanic is.

Well seems you need some educating. Plenty of folks who got their A&P via part 65 and not part 47.

N737AA
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 41):
There seems to be alot of ignorance here about who and what an Aircraft Mechanic is.

An A&P is not the grease monkey at your local chevy dealership. An A&P is a FAA certificated airman with at least 2 years of education in aircraft maintenance (including among others aircraft systems, structures, regulations, math and physics) and passed 9 FAA exams, and that's when the real training starts. Once in the airline world, the mechanic's training is constant, from fleet FAM schools, run/taxi schools, human factors, and endless OJT items, down to daily read-and-signs and online training.

Some of the implications here show a lack of understanding of just how much liability an Aircraft Mechanic holds. I like to use the (morbid, I know) comparison that a doctor's screw up can only kill one person at a time. An A&P can incur civil and criminal penalties not to mention the loss of their livelihood if derelict enough in their responsibilities. Even a relatively benign breach of regulations or policy can land you a suspended licence. ALL aircraft maintenance work is documented, so you can bet the mechanics who installed those seats have already been investigated by the company and the feds. Also noteworthy is that airline mechanics tend to fly on their own work quite a bit (both for work and pleasure).

So the idea that sabotaging seats could be used as a work action is ignorant beyond the point of serious consideration. A disgruntled aircraft mechanic is the safest guy you'll ever meet, he will be following EVERY rule to a "T" and will be doing no favors for his company to get a plane out.






Exactly and right on point. I spent 8 hours yesterday with 3 other mechs. and an instructor in a 737 simulator doing nothing but engine start/run/taxi/emergency procedures to renew my Taxi/Run Designee certification. This is a internal certification (with no benefits) so I can sign off other mechanics for a Run/Taxi license after they have completed initial training.

As said above, if our name and number is on that log page or work order you can bet if it isn't done properly and causes problems we will be held accountable.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:12 pm

I don't want to get into much of what the news media is reporting regarding seats and old planes, etc. I think so much of what is going on is just sensationalism. When I see how they are reporting on this stuff, I don't know what to believe anymore when I read on subjects I am not familiar with.

The only thing I want to add about the age of our aircraft (and AA is planning on having the youngest fleet in the next few years with the new aircraft deliveries) is that we have the best damn mechanics we could possibly have working our aircraft.

I would put my mother in law on any aircraft we operate. Ok, maybe that wasn't very convincing. I would put my kids on any aircraft we operate any time.
 
iFlyLOTs
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 54):
I would put my mother in law on any aircraft we operate. Ok, maybe that wasn't very convincing. I would put my kids on any aircraft we operate any time.

I heard another AA pilot say that yesterday too, and I believe it. It really is just sensationalism with all the other things that have been happening around AA recently.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
MQTmxguy
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:58 pm

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:06 am

Quoting N737AA (Reply 52):
Well seems you need some educating. Plenty of folks who got their A&P via part 65 and not part 47.

I assume you mean part 147 right?  
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
MQTmxguy
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:58 pm

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 46):
"roving compliance"

My new favorite term
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
windy95
Posts: 2772
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

As long as they are properly maintained.

Quoting gonzalo (Thread starter):
Or just hysterical media doing a big deal of small problems ??

They always do that.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 4):
"Was this a deliberate event triggered by disgruntled union maintenance workers?"

Wow...You have to be kidding right. there are millions of LEGAL ways to disrupt operations for mechanic. Do you really think they are going to risk fines and going to jail or the lives of their fellow co workers just to make a point. Their family flies on these and the family of their co-workers and friends. Not only can I be fined or sued but the people hurt or killed can go after me in civil court and destroy not just me but my family.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 7):
"Mistakes" happen all the time, right?

Grow up....

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 14):
I've seen loose seat rows on brand new planes delivered right from the factory.

It does happen.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 16):
But, we are ,so it is wise to consider all factors.

No we are being ignorant to think that people will risk the lives of themselves and others just to make a point. If you have no evidence or no clue as to what you are talking about stop such nonsense.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
I give the Machinists Union (or whomever handles onboard maintenance) enough intelligence not to take an action that would open them up to lawsuits and criminal charges for deliberately endangering the safety of passengers

The Transport Workers Union. And like I said there are ton's of legal ways to disrupt and delay flights. Why would you open yourself to go to jail or to civil lawsuits?

Quoting gonzalo (Reply 45):
.. this could be just a box of screws with a manufacture failure or another thing.....

Do you think we install seats with a box of screws?
 
scarebus03
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:14 pm

RE: AA Older Planes : Are These Planes Safe Enough?

Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting MQTmxguy (Reply 43):

MX programs are designed by the manufacturer and tailored to the airline. So if you would, please contact Boeing and inform them that you have found their maintenance program for the MD-80 fleet insufficient.

Already done  


Brgds
SB03
No faults found......................

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