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KarelXWB
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 134):
ET will restart revenue flights on saturday, April 27.

Thank you. I was wondering when revenue flights would restart. That is great news!

Update, latest ET 787 schedule revision as follow:

Addis Ababa – Nairobi Boeing 787 to operate one-off service on 27APR13 as ET801/800 (Nairobi – Bujumbura sector is cancelled)
Addis Ababa – Frankfurt Boeing 787 service resumes (on this route) from 28APR13, instead of 15JUN13
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Gemuser
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 148):
Direct Link to AD

Thank you, Stitch.
I note that was not up when I last access the FAA site & wrote reply 143, which was Thursday, DC time.

Gemuser
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 134):
ET will restart revenue flights on saturday, April 27.

Thank you. I was wondering when revenue flights would restart. That is great news!

Update, latest ET 787 schedule revision as follow:

Addis Ababa – Nairobi Boeing 787 to operate one-off service on 27APR13 as ET801/800 (Nairobi – Bujumbura sector is cancelled)
Addis Ababa – Frankfurt Boeing 787 service resumes (on this route) from 28APR13, instead of 15JUN13


I can just imagine the ET management and pilots all but flogging the AOG crews to get the fixes done so they can get back to flying LoL.

Test flights? Nah... Retraining flights? Nope, I looked at my manual during my vacation in Mombasa!

I know some folks are flipping out because the exact cause of each incident wasn't nailed down to the N'th degree but the fact is - it may never be known exactly what happened. All we're left with is improving the battery, the charging system, the monitoring software and adding the enclosure plus vent.

ET doesn't seem too concerned
 
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 152):
Test flights? Nah... Retraining flights? Nope, I looked at my manual during my vacation in Mombasa!

Per the AD information, no test flight is required (as expected) and retraining flights, well that's what simulators are for last time I looked. Sounds like the JCAB is requiring a (singular) test flight per airplane and no training flights because they also know that can be accomplished in the simulator.
 
sankaps
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 153):
Sounds like the JCAB is requiring a (singular) test flight per airplane and no training flights because they also know that can be accomplished in the simulator.

Do you have a source for this? As posted on another of the numerous threads on the topics, it has approved it conditional on additional checks and tests: http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...set-to-resume-787-flights/2115241/

"Japan is requiring ANA and JAL to take additional safety measures, including installation of a system that allows monitoring of battery voltage on the ground and test flights of all 787 aircraft. A first test flight is expected Sunday."

ANA plans to conduct 230 test flight prior to returning to revenue service:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...mliner-japan-idUSBRE93P00520130426

"The test flight by ANA, the Dreamliner's top customer, comes after U.S. and Japanese authorities gave approval for flights to resume and will be the first of some 230 flights the airline has planned before allowing the jet to carry passengers."

June before revenue flights resume:
"A resumption of Dreamliner commercial flights would be around June, as safety improvements are expected to take several weeks to finish, airline officials said."
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:52 pm

I don't read Japanese well enough to the JTSB's AD, but none of the English-language reports have stated that the JTSB is requiring test flights before an NH or JL 787 can return to revenue service. They are requiring real-time monitoring of the voltage on the batteries and a more-rigourous inspection period.

As such, I think USA Today is confusing the voluntary tests that NH is undertaking on each 787 as something being mandated by the JTSB. I believe NH is doing it of their own volition, not per JTSB requirements.
 
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PITingres
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 154):
... and will be the first of some 230 flights the airline has planned before allowing the jet to carry passengers...

That's just crazy, IMHO. It will be fascinating to see if they really do that many empty flights. I can't imagine anything that they could possibly be gaining from that many flights at an engineering level, or even for PR; so either this is a misunderstanding, or NH have way too much money in the bank and need to get rid of some of it.  
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:33 pm



What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:50 pm

ANA news release:

http://www.noodls.com/view/0C2AF8000...5BEDCE03E29B8A8B6?124xxx1366974011


Excerpts:

To cover JCAB requirements:

(1) Proving Flights
Every 787 aircraft in ANA's fleet will undergo a proving flight upon completion of the battery improvement work. First Proving flight will fly on 28 April, departing and returning to Haneda to confirm that no battery related failures occur during flight.


To cover flight crew recurrency:

(4) Cockpit Crew Training
Cockpit crews assigned to the 787 aircraft are scheduled to undergo extensive hands-on flight training (approximately 230 flights) with actual aircraft and also to use 787 flight simulators before serving on scheduled commercial flights
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:55 pm

Also a good sight for ANA 787 battery and other information listed in the news release above

http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/local/common/share/boeing787info/
 
tonystan
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 159):

That is one very stern looking CEO!!!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
sankaps
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:44 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 158):
ANA news release:

http://www.noodls.com/view/0C2AF8000...74011

Excerpt:

To be fully satisfied with the safety of our 787 fleet:

Osamu Shinobe, President and CEO of ANA said "ANA's priority is to ensure the safety of our passengers. We are pleased that the FAA and JCAB are satisfied with Boeing's plans to address the battery issues on the 787 aircraft and we are working closely with Boeing and our own engineers to undertake these improvements. Only when we are fully satisfied with the safety of our 787 fleet will we return the aircraft to service.
 
bellancacf
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:16 am

Is it possible that the Japanese operators are planning on having so many test flights in part because they want to train the ground crews, too? Or, if not 'train' the ground crews, then put the plane in their hands so many times that any problems that might arise as a result of their SOP would emerge? I seem to recall reading that the batteries are fairly sensitive to the treatment they receive on the ground, and the Japanese carriers' batteries were apparently failing more frequently that you'd like to see, aside from the two runaways we know of.
 
twiga
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 162):
I seem to recall reading that the batteries are fairly sensitive to the treatment they receive on the ground, and the Japanese carriers' batteries were apparently failing more frequently that you'd like to see, aside from the two runaways we know of.

Don't know exactly what you are getting at. But a thought comes to mind. Those origional blue boxes were made of very thin material and those battery cells are relatively heavy about 7 lbs each. Wouldn't it be like carrying around a 6 or 12 pack of beer in one of those cardboard boxes where everything wants to warp and to move around a bit. Maybe this was a concern because they redesigned the terminals with more robust connectors and locknuts - otherwise loosened terminals would lead to high resistance interferring with charging, discharging and monitoring. It would be interesting to know if they changed the thickness of the blue box material.
 
bellancacf
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:00 pm

It was electrical treatment I was thinking of. The more I've mulled this idea over, though, the more sense it makes, in a way. I could imagine Boeing even urging someone (and who better to do it than the Japanese?) to wring out the new system by pushing it through the routine of whatever it is that happens on the ground -- generators on, generators off, charging on, charging off, power draw, no power draw, the whole process. And to do it 'in the field', instead of in the lab or on a testbed. You could knock down several birds with one stone, and everybody would benefit from the knowledge gained.
 
twiga
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 164):
And to do it 'in the field', instead of in the lab or on a testbed.

I agree. The difference between in the "field" and in the "lab" is introducing another variable which needs thorough checking out. Its a very practacle approach, and the Japanese with their discipline and attention to detail if anyone can shake it out they can.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 135):
Now if you want to compare the cost of flying one empty 787 to ADD as opposed to flying a whole AOG team with tools and parts to WAW, you'll have to do the analysis . . . I wouldn't know.

I'm thinking the cost of a team at a foreign destination vs. home in Seattle.

But hey, whatever gets these aircraft in the air quickly. I'm not really going to care that much about a few grand of hotel bills.   What matters is that by August or September we should have all the delivered aircraft flying and the majority of the ready (sans battery) but undelivered aircraft delivered!   


From the all things 787 blog, I count 34 787s that should be deliverable within 4 months plus a few more production units. This makes the goal of delivering 65 787s in 2013 very acheivable or 115 in service. Good news. But in my opinion, I'm waiting for 300+ to be delivered to see 'economy of scale' impact the global air service market.

Lightsaber
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kanban
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:50 pm

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 164):
It was electrical treatment I was thinking of.

as I recall, the problem was the ground service crews were using battery power when they should have either had the APU running or been connected to ground owed. In using the batteries, they depleted them below the point where the could be recharged in the aircraft necessitating a swap out.

Sometimes in the rush to get pilots and cabin staff trained, we forget about the ramp personnel.. heck most service ports are plainly marked.. but something like always connecting ground power before cleaning, or servicing, or unloading /loading cargo is not instinctual.
 
bellancacf
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:53 am

Do I also recall (sorry, but digging through a thousand+ posts isn't in the cards tonight) that there's some variation between generators in their power and voltage characteristics and that this can be hard on the Li-ion batteries? I wonder if there will be some attempt to match up certain planes and certain generators to get some statistics on possible failure rates as a function of generator characteristics. This line of thought makes the Japanese decision to install additional monitoring/recording equipment look like part of a larger plan to investigate 'real-life' factors and outcomes.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting bellancacf (Reply 168):
Do I also recall (sorry, but digging through a thousand+ posts isn't in the cards tonight) that there's some variation between generators in their power and voltage characteristics and that this can be hard on the Li-ion batteries?

The AC is variable frequency, but the DC is fixed (looks like 28V or 270V with the batteries connected to the 28V system).
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: 787 Clear For Takeoff On 4-24-2013?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:42 am

Qatar A7-BCB is now in the air too.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/30vd47t.jpg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.

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